They can no longer cool the spent fuel storage pool at #3

[kristopher]

warning of substantial radiation leak.

They've flushed the system 7 times with no success.

They are proceeding with electric connection and pump/switchboard repair with hopes for #4.

Evacuating medical personell and patients from hospitals in the the buffer zone (out to 30KM). Many will not be able to leave, however.

NHK

I was had a glimmer of hope the steady flow of water was going to work. Hopefully they can prevent much more escalation.

[jpak]

1. post a link if/when you can

n/t

[kristopher]

4. Its from NHK on Japan TV

I'm watching it live.

[Hannah Bell]

40. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=684445&mesg_id=684764

you can probably hear the 9 am report for yourself at the link at bottom & confirm whatever the latest is.

it is always best to confirm for oneself before running with unsourced material.

[rhett o rick]

78. According to Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano who says the situation at the Fukushima

is improving. "He said he believes the water-spraying over the spent fuel rod pool in the No.3 reactor was successful.
He added that the current situation is more stable than before." As of Saturday, March 19, 2011 21:23 +0900 (JST)


http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/19_28.html

[dkf]

2. Omg.

I really thought they might pull this off.

[Hannah Bell]

42. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=684445&mesg_id=684764

[Jersey Devil]

3. source?

Doesn't sound right.

[Hannah Bell]

5. nhk english here

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/index.html

tv on the right

nhk world stream:

http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv43583382

[cui bono]

28. I just went to your first link. They're giving a weather report like nothing is wrong. So weird.

That just feels so wrong. Nice sunny day on the Pacific. (paraphrasing)

[Hannah Bell]

29. i'm also monitoring kyodo, bbc, reuters. so far nothing similar.

just for the record: of the news reported in the op, these items have previously been reported:

They are proceeding with electric connection and pump/switchboard repair with hopes for #4.

Evacuating medical personell and patients from hospitals in the the buffer zone (out to 30KM).

it was reported this am (my time, pacific time) that power had been connected to reactor two (if i remember correctly) & had been confirmed to work. and that they were proceeding working on further connections.

[Hannah Bell]

30. now 8 am report

it said it suspended the spraying operation for 20 minutes in order to connect electricity....

says scheduled to resume operation noon saturday (it's now 8 am saturday in japan)

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=time+japan&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c47ba9fccbc37ce6


this second part from two experts talking; it appeared in earlier report so is not most recent:

radioactive level went up "a bit" -- "we cannot be too happy or too unhappy about it," important thing is to restore the level

"once the power is restored they will be able to maintain the cooling system"

another concern is radiation level in adjacent areas & areas further away

dose/reading to workers about 100 millisievert

in fukushima city 12.7 microsievert

surveying levels in vicinity


edit: to clarify, tepco says some of its workers have taken the max dose of 100 milli-sieverts, they have raised dose to 150 millisieverts but will not let workers take further dose than that. (per announcers additional statement)



dispersed further away

now repeating the precautions about the evacuation zone


so i'm not hearing anything indicating a permanent abandonment of #3 as implied in the op

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

[kristopher]

45. They didn't say they were "abandoning spraying"

"They can no longer cool the spent fuel storage pool at #3" is a direct quote.

[Hannah Bell]

52. "can no longer cool" is a statement that can be read in many ways.

including giving up an effort to cool.

i advice people to listen to nhk world for themselves here:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

and draw their own conclusions about what's going on.

[kristopher]

56. Only in the imagination of those trying to spin this for the indsutry...

You base your opinion on continued efforts aimed at the reactor. There was a distinction between that effort an the one aimed at the spent fuel pool.

But heaven help us we will know know soon, because the physics will not lie.

[Hannah Bell]

60. unlike yourself, i don't allow my position on nuclear power -- which is, in fact, negative --

to interfere with my attempts to get accurate information about what's going on in japan.

that is my first priority in a crisis.

you were on the internet when you submitted your op.

why didn't you post a link?

the fact that you were watching on satellite tv is immaterial.

you were posting on the internet.

[kristopher]

61. Don't you realize you've disproven that with your actions.

I'm sure you believe it but it is far to easy to disprove.

[Hannah Bell]

62. ahokamae.

[kristopher]

63. kusotare obatarian

[rhett o rick]

77. There are those trying to spin in each direction. I am after what's actually happening.

Looks like they are continuing to spray water on the pools as of 1100 PDT.

[Hannah Bell]

44. it wasn't.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=684445&mesg_id=684764

[kristopher]

47. You are spreading misinformation Hannah Bell

What I posted regarding the cooling was a direct quote and a clear statement.

Stop playing games with people's lives.

[Hannah Bell]

49. anyone can verify by listening to the 9 am report for themselves.

i know what i heard.

perhaps the translator was bad & only you have the true information.

[kristopher]

51. And perhaps they decided to walk back from it -stop.

[Hannah Bell]

53. i, unlike yourself, post links & let people judge for themselves.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

i don't interject my own editorializing.

there should be another new report at 9 (japan time)

and as you are typing to us on a computer, there is no reason you could not have posted a link.

[Tx4obama]

6. They have NOT been able to cool the spent fuel storage pool at #3 since before the tsunami ....

right?
So, nothing has changed.

[leveymg]

9. Not clear whether this is a new alert or status quo. The #3 reactor pool is particularly dangerous

for the reason I stated below.

[kristopher]

12. It is new. It is not an alert. It is the 7AM news broaddcast from their public TV stn.

[Tx4obama]

15. Well, no matter what it is, NONE of the reactors & pools have had any cooling for a week now. n/t

[leveymg]

18. No "new" coolant, but they're now boiled down, leaked (dry?). That's the difference.

[Tx4obama]

21. But we already pretty much knew that some of the spent rod pools were damaged and dry.

So, I guess I am missing what 'new' news you are trying to say.

[tekisui]

23. Time has passed, efforts have failed, less water, it has gotten worse.

[leveymg]

24. I don't know what the new news is. None of us do. That's a big part of the problem.

I am not saying the rods are melting and vaporizing without being immersed in coolant, but if that wasn't a real danger, they would simply come out and say so, don't you think?

[Tx4obama]

26. The rods ARE melting. That is where all the radiation has been coming from. n/t

[leveymg]

33. No. As I understand it, the radiation and hydrogen is from melting cladding. The rods don't

melt until they reach 3000 degrees. Plutonium somewhat less.

The fuel rods are wrapped in an alloy (zirconium) that when it burns (1200 degrees C, 2200 F) pulls oxygen out of water, releasing explosive hydrogen and steam. If that isn't contained, the plume escapes into the atmosphere.

The fumes and smoke are radioactive steam and burning materials from inside the reactor containments and the melted cladding. The real danger is melting and vaporization of the rods themselves, but I'm not sure how close we are to that. They aren't telling us, and may not know. As I said, the plutonium rods in #3 melt at a lower temp than the others.

[leveymg]

69. Correction: It appears that the melting point of Plutonium is less than its insulation:

Chemical Elements.com - Plutonium (Pu)
Name: Plutonium Symbol: Pu Atomic Number: 94. Atomic Mass: (244.0) amu. Melting Point: 639.5 °C (912.65 K, 1183.1 °F) Boiling Point: 3235.0 °C - http://www.chemicalelements.com/elements/pu.html

It is possible that some of the plutonium in the uncooled MOX rods contained in Reactor building #3 has started to melt.

However, the vaporization (boiling) point - 3235 degrees C is still so high that it's unlikely that we'll see massive airborne release unless criticality is reached. That's the good news.

By comparison, the melting point of Uranium is considerably higher than Plutonium and about the same as the insulation it is clad by:
Chemical Elements.com - Uranium (U)
Name: Uranium Symbol: U Atomic Number: 92. Atomic Mass: 238.0289 amu. Melting Point: 1132.0 °C (1405.15 K, 2069.6 °F) Boiling Point: 3818.0 °C (4091.15 K, ...
www.chemicalelements.com/elements/u.html - Cached - Similar

Maybe, here's the really bad news about Reactor 3. The critical mass of pure plutonium (at which it will support a chain reaction is only 4.4 kilograms - about as much pure plutonium as is contained in two MOX rods. Each MOX rod contains about ten percent Pu mixed with reactor grade uranium and other radioactive isotopes, which raises the critical mass substantially. Nonetheless, any two MOX fuel rods (each weighs about 60 pounds) contains a sufficient mass of plutonium to achieve criticality, a "chain reaction", if the uranium and other elements were removed. Of course, MOX fuel rods do not explode for two reasons: they aren't normally mixed together, and because they contain blended nuclear materials of various types that do not have a sufficient purity of any type or combination of types to cause a run-away nuclear reaction.

Theoretically, if one were to take many MOX rods and mix them together in a molten mass, it would not explode like an atomic bomb. Nonetheless, these materials, left uncooled and uncontained, in sufficient quantities long enough, would be so hot and radioactive as to burn through and radiate practically any material, including steel, concrete, stone, and dirt. Once they had burned through the floor of a containment structure, they would continue to "melt down." It is unclear as to how far below ground this glowing molten mass would descend, but in its present location, it would reach the water table within a few meters, sending up a large plume of radioactive steam and particles of molten sand, radioactive silicate.

"Mixed oxide, or MOX fuel, is a blend of uranium and plutonium which behaves similarly to the enriched fresh uranium fuel. The plutonium in MOX fuel can be derived from either spent fuel discharged from reactors or nuclear weapons material. Reactor grade MOX, derived from commercial reactor spent fuel, contains quantities of fissile (U-235, Pu-239, and Pu-241) and fertile (U-238) material. Uranium and recovered plutonium constitute the basis for reactor grade MOX fuel. Weapons grade MOX is derived from surplus nuclear weapons. The main difference between weapons grade plutonium and reactor grade plutonium is the percentage of the plutonium isotopes present in each fuel type. . . reactor grade MOX has higher concentrations of Pu-238, Pu240, Pu-241, and Pu-242. In addition, Pu-241 decays to Am-241. The concentrations of these radioactive isotopes necessitate additional shielding measures for reactor grade MOX fuel. . . typical reactor grade PWR MOX fuel assembly contains approximately 10% of plutonium per weight of heavy metal," - http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ugeI6cPfTVMJ:www.scribd.com/doc/50670006/Japan-Exploded-Nuclear-Plant-Uses-MOX-Fuel-Not-Uranium-What-is-That-Just-2-MILLION-Times-WORSE-Than-Uranium-or-Chernobyl-s-Meltdown+MOX+fuel+rods+weigh+contain+percent+plutonium+and+enriched+uranium&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

#
An estimate of the MOX fuel assembly weight was derived from the weight of a ... Weight of control rod assemblies for the MOX core design is given as 60 Ibs ...
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/889278-GsWJAs/
#

[grahamhgreen]

72. (hands pulling hair, screaming)

[kristopher]

10. Yes, they've given up trying.

Perhaps they will attempt a sarcophagus next, but that is my speculation, not from the news.

They (NHK) had the designer of the one they might use on about 4 days ago virtually all day. They followed him around as he toured some areas in the tsunami zone. That means most people are already familiar with the tech and they can move without a lot of confusion if they need to.

There was little discussion of the negatives associated with the cap though.

[cui bono]

27. Designer of a sarcophagus? n/t

[kristopher]

32. Specifically for nuclear meltdowns. nt

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

17. there's no water in the pool. they tried to refill it and failed.

It will just keep getting hotter and more radioactive until the rods slump.

And it is already too radioactive for them to stay close for long.
Soon they won't even be able to do that.

[Shagbark Hickory]

7. Goodbye Planet. You were nice while you lasted.

[yawnmaster]

11. omg. is the planet leaving? eom

[Rex]

25. Hehe... I think you have that backwards.

Goodbye Humans. You were nice until about the 1400 century. Cya on the flipside!

[leveymg]

8. Same situation in #4, probably worse, except #3 has the plutonium rods.

If the MOX (plutonium-uranium mix) rods melt and vaporize, there could be enormous plume of highly-radioactive alpha particle-emitting fumes that may travel "hot" for long distances. That would present a real danger far downwind.

[Pharaoh]

13. Oh Boy!

We will start glowing in the dark! How cool! :party:

[leveymg]

14. Get out that old Cold War party suit >

Made by Goodyear, and air-conditioned for comfort!

[flamingdem]

41. at that point it might be smart to leave

the West Coast, however where can one go other than South? I mean Mexico or further

At least until there is more information on the PlutoPlume

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

54. you could at least get to the other side of the Rockies

[leveymg]

58. If the rods start to vaporize, there will be a huge spike in detectable radiation.

A lot of it has to do with prevailing winds. The vast majority of the fallout will be within a few hundred miles of the site. There is no need to pack your bags just yet if you're not in Japan.

[rhett o rick]

16. These posts arent worth much w/o out links. No offense but there is a lot of conflicting info. nm

[Jersey Devil]

19. It's the NHK live feed, but I think a lot gets jumbled in translation

I'd rather read it from a source I know is properly translated.

[kristopher]

20. There is a link at post #5 I'm watching live on Japan public TV via sat

If that isn't direct enough...

[Hannah Bell]

22. nhk world here.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv43583382

i'm still waiting to hear what the op heard. just caught the end of what he was posting about, not enough to catch the context.

[Hannah Bell]

36. just heard the 8 am report. it did not confirm the implications of the op

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=684445&mesg_id=684764

chigatta to omou.

[Urban Prairie]

31. Can't they build a huge cooling pond completely surrounding and higher than the damned Reactor #3

I ask half-seriously?

Or bring in huge excavating equipment and dig around and underneath it making a lagoon with nearby seawater and lower the reactor into it?

We can remove whole mountaintops, but are apparently stymied with this impending and possibly cataclysmic nuclear meltdown of maybe globally catastrophic proportions?

:-( :scared: :shrug:

[kristopher]

34. They have ready a concrete cap that is designed to contain meltdowns

I'm sure they will use it if it will help and if they can.

[leveymg]

35. You want to operate the giant earth movers and cranes? How do they get there? How many months for

that project?

[Urban Prairie]

37. Obviously it would take too many months

unfortunately.

[leveymg]

39. They'll entomb the site after it cools off. Question is, how long . . . months, years, eons?

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

55. it took 9 months for Chernobyl's to be built. That was 1 reactor.

[flamingdem]

38. Japan may have screwed the world with their MOX plutonium fuel mix in No. 3

Oh but don't worry and pull your hair out - speaking of hair coming out...

No one knows what that will do to people now that it's airborne.

[leveymg]

43. I'm afraid the Japanese are well aware of what plutonium does to people.

Nagasaki. But, here's the really bad part - vaporized plutonium is even more dangerous as a dirty bomb than as a fission bomb. The stuff is a high alpha particle emitter - only a tiny particle, if you breath or ingest it, will cook your tissues and eventually kill you. Not quickly like a bomb blast, but relatively slowly as a Cancer.

Don't blame the Japanese. MOX was our idea, like the GE Mark 1 reactor.

[flamingdem]

46. Thanks for that information about vaporized plutonium

I've been trying to find out more about that. Do you have any links?

Also, I'd guess the smaller particles can travel better as dust and the body cannot rid itself of smaller particles as well.

[leveymg]

50. There's a good summary at Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium Most of the early sections are highly technical. But, go about half way down the article (long) to "As a Heat Source" and "Toxicity." Those two sections will tell you most of what you need to know about the physical properties and health effects.

[flamingdem]

59. I am going to end up highly educated about milliseverts and radiation

due to this not to mention nuclear plant design.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. You too?

I was used to counts and rads... now I know miliseverts

[leveymg]

65. Hopefully, we will all live and learn from this.

BTW: My first professional publication was in Oct.'79 when The Boston Globe printed an article I wrote at BU about the anti-nuclear protests at the Seabrook nuclear plant then being constructed. "Victory in Defeat at Seabrook." My point was basically that the protesters had won the political struggle because we stayed non-violent, unlike those who were trying (unsuccessfully) to push the demonstrators off the plant grounds. I believe that was one of the last nuclear plants actually completed in this country during the last thirty years.

I think we may need to have to go back to those peaceful mass disobedience tactics to prevent completion of the new plants being licensed and constructed.

[flamingdem]

68. Seabrook, oh that brings back memories

I hope that movement gets reignited.

We knew the implications back then.

[localroger]

48. More like screwed themselves

There's no mechanism to get those particles into the upper atmosphere, so nearly all of them will fall out within a few hundred miles of the plant. Even Chernobyl, which had a huge roaring fire plume to elevate particles, didn't cause any personally noticeable radiological problems more than a few hundred miles from the site.

The statistical view is different; a lot more people died of the flu the following year nearly everywhere, but when an individual's chances of surviving the year drop from 99% to 98%, we tend not to take that so seriously, and it doesn't put our species as a whole at any noticeable risk. But as far as "I drank contaminated milk and now I'll be dead within a few years," that sort of thing was mostly limited to eastern Europe and the surrounding area.

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

57. unless there is another explosion of some type.

Chernobyl wasn't using MOX either.

[localroger]

73. There is nothing at the plant capable of stratospheric injection

Chernobyl was much bigger, had a massive chemical fire in the graphite that went on for days, and most of the radioactivity still fell out within a few hundred miles. There is nothing at Fukushima that is even that energetic.

The absolute, final, bona fide worst case scenario is that reactor 3 melts down through the bottom of its containment vessel and the building's foundation and hits ground water. That could send the entire core up as fine powder in a massive steam explosion. And that would be very, very bad. But it would not noticeably affect "the world." It would be a horrible problem for Japan and possibly for some other nearby countries but, except for it getting hard to find car parts, we would probably not notice it much at all.

The fallout from atomic bombs can go a long way because the mushroom cloud carries the particles to high altitudes. It is not possible for even the worst case scenario at Fukushima to create an atomic explosion that powerful. There is a basic reason for that; it doesn't even require good design to rule out the possibility. Atomic bombs have to be assembled from a subcritical mass to a critical mass very quickly -- in milliseconds -- or they blow themselves apart before the reaction can run to completion. This is called a "fizzle," and it's why North Korea's nuclear test is considered a failure. It takes good design to make an atomic explosion happen.

A wayward reactor might melt, it might spray toxic particles into the lower atmosphere, but it cannot loft those particles into the stratosphere. It couldn't do that even if an evil mad scientist took the place over and tried to make it happen deliberately.

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

76. we'll see what happens if they can't cool things down.

[Urban Prairie]

66. If this mix in fact does melt down

Would it become super-hot enough to burn its way through the earth beneath it?

Because IF it can, then it would likely do something similar to the "China Syndrome" but only until/if it was to hit a pocket of subterranean magma that would probably be under tremendous pressure, within perhaps the Earth's mantle, and then the magma and the super-heated mix could and maybe would both "erupt" and then be blasted into the Earth's upper atmosphere...

[localroger]

75. Not even close

If the core melts through the containment and building foundation, when it hits ground water there will be a steam explosion. This will be very bad for the immediate area but no, it won't cause a volcanic eruption.

[kristopher]

67. There are more than 42 million people within 200 miles of that plant. nt

[localroger]

74. True, but that's not "the world." nt

[kristopher]

70. Accurate translation of the broacast w/ japanese text

Because of the significance of the event, I asked around and fortunately found a friend who had taped that segment. This is the precise wording and an accurate translation.

３号機では使用済み燃料を保管したプールの冷却ができなくなっていて、このままの状態が続くと放射性物質が大量に漏れだすおそれがあります。東京電力福島事務所によりますと、３号機からおよそ５００メートル北西にある事務本館の北側の放射線の量が自衛隊の放水が始まってからわずかに下がったということです。東京電力福島事務所は今の段階で評価することはできないとして今後詳しく分析することにしています。

(We) have not been able to cool the number 3 rector’s spent fuel holding pool. If this condition continues, there is a possibility of high dose of radio active material leaking. According to TEPCO Fukushima office, 500 meters northwest of Number 3 reactor, on the north side of the Main office building, the radioactive measurement has decreased slightly since Self Defense Force started pouring water. TEPCO Fukushima Office indicated that it is not possible to evaluate at this stage. They will further analyze the situation in detail.


NHK broadcast 0704 3/19/11 Japan Standard Time

Transcribed and translated by Mrs.and Mr. Kristopher.

[grahamhgreen]

71. Kick