Forget Harvard and a 4-Year Degree, You Can Make More as a Plumber in the Long Run

[The Straight Story]

Forget Harvard and a 4-Year Degree, You Can Make More as a Plumber in the Long Run, Says Prof. Kotlikoff

The value of a college education has been a hot topic of discussion here at Tech Ticker. Now there’s more fodder for debate.

A new study from Princeton University shows that expensive college degrees are not necessarily worth the lofty price tags in the long run when you take into account one's natural ability.

Laurence Kotlikoff, professor of economics at Boston University agrees that an expensive education just isn't worth it -- much to his chagrin of course because tuition and fees at Boston University totalled $39,314 for 2010-11.

With unemployment still about 9 percent, on average, for college graduates under the age of 25, and total student-loan debt now topping that of credit card debt in this country, he tells Aaron in the accompanying clip, “If you think of education as solely a monetary investment, if we are not thinking about all the other benefits from education like learning things, and getting to hang out with me, and also just becoming a more cultured person, then we have to look at this very carefully.”

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/forget-harvard-and-a-4-year-degree-you-can-make-more-as-a-plumber-in-the-long-run-says-prof.-kotlikoff-536046.html

[RSillsbee]

1. Having been a plumber let me state for the record

the second time you go to cut into a sewer line to add a bathroom and find out that the line is plugged somewhere down stream from you, while you're sitting there up to your elbows (and rising) in shit trying to get a Tee on that pipe you'll wish you'd gone to college

[earthside]

4. But the point is ...

... that having a four year degree and $50,000 worth of student loan debt is not for everyone; contrary to the mantra of the Obama/Duncan 'Race to the Top' education policy.

Trades and crafts are just as legitimate lifetime endeavors as being a college-degreed cubicle office worker.

[MadHound]

10. Except for the fact that trades and crafts are quickly being outsourced,

Yes, degreed careers are also being outsourced, but at a slower rate.

And frankly, job training was, and to a certain extent still is(depending upon the college) never meant to be the end all and be all of why you get a college education.

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. Can't outsource the unplugging of a toilet.

Pay is dictated by the supply of people able to do it.

That supply is dictated by;
a) The number of people with the natural aptitude, skill or other necessary fundamental attributes.
b) The number of them who are also willing to tolerate the work conditions
c) The number of the above who have the money and intelligence to obtain the education or certifications required. In the case of some professions, such as medicine, this constraint is arbitrarily imposed to keep salaries high.

Plumbing, like prostitution and ironworking, have a very constrained workforce because of a) and b).

[MadHound]

30. That's what they thought about the construction industry,

But it has suffered as immigrants, both legal and illegal, have come in and undercut the pay scale.

[pstokely]

56. You can H-1b unplugging of a toilet

NT

[NashVegas]

62. You Can Also Consolidate

There have been attempts to consolidate the plumbing industry which have been unsuccessful, so far. Don't know how long that can last, though.

[RSillsbee]

35. According to the Dept. of labor statistics

America will lose over 50% of her manufacturing jobs by 2016. They are all being outsourced. Here in Colorado Springs (admittedly not a large manufacturing town) most manufacturing facilities have shut down.

The two biggest that are left (Micro Metals and Synthes) depend almost entirely on unskilled to semi skilled labor w/ a few workers that actually know what they're doing to do all the set ups and first offs.

If you want a real skilled machinist position you're up against guys w/ 30 some years in the field that will do the job for maybe a buck more than you.

[pstokely]

55. Why hire a union plumber or electrician when you can hire cheap imported labor?

If it can't be outsourced, it can bed H-1Bd. You're almost better off going to work at McDonalds or Wal-mart full time after high school, just way they want it

[Divernan]

64. My state requires plumbers to be licensed following apprenticeships

and taking test - requiring knowledge of English language - will slow down imported labor with those hurdles.

[cleanhippie]

20. True, but the unions that ensure those living wages and benefits are being dismantled.

Without them, good trade jobs will simply be min wage, and min wage is not a living wage.

[Maine_Nurse]

6. I have $101k in my nursing degree and I probably spend more...

time in the goo and poo than you do. Around here, a relatively new nurse makes 35-38K a year. You probably make as much or more, so just think of all the time and hassle you saved, lol.

ps. one of my sons is a plumber and we compare bad days sometimes. Usually I "win", but so far, his day where the old metal septic tank wall collapsed as he was unclogging a downhill outflow pipe still is the all-time winner.

[RSillsbee]

36. I bet you don't

I left plumbing years ago to get my nursing degree.

[grahamhgreen]

23. That's exactly why you SHOULD make the big bucks! Thanks to all the plumbers out there!

[Robb]

59. This.

Working for dad and grandpa in just such situations was ENTIRELY designed to make me hit the books. Hard. It worked.

[old mark]

2. If you are talking strictly about income, it really depends what you study...

Literature and Philosophy graduates and people with a BS in Psychology or Economics can't expect to earn much...certainly less than a plumber or a good carpenter. One of the highest income people I know is a stone mason...he has a small construction company, just himself and 2 or 3 helpers and a truck. But he is REALLY good at what he does.


mark

[east texas lib]

17. Out in this neck of the woods a good stone mason can damn near set his own price.

The trades are a good route if you don't mind a little dirt.

[old mark]

28. And if you know what you are doing...He can look at a site and see how

the finished job will look, what materials it will take and his work is really good. He does not even advertise. People recommend him and his work recommends him...and he works very steadily.

mark

[HockeyMom]

3. "A guy in India cannot fix your leaking toilet bowl"

that is what my plumber nephew said to my IT husband almost 20 years ago. My husband now uses that quote when he talks to young kids who want to become programmers.

[jacquelope]

13. Sad

India is getting all the high-tech jobs while all Americans have to look forward to is being swamped by collapsing septic tank walls.

Wait'll they start exporting robo-plumbers at us...

[pstokely]

57. You can bring in a guy from Mexico to unplug your toliet

Probably not very well, but cheap

[aquart]

5. Plumbers are union men.

Harvard graduates, not so much.

(And if you tell me you use a non-union plumber, well, good luck with that.)

[DireStrike]

7. +a lot. Unions = good wages.

[Maine_Nurse]

8. Not around here...

most are independent operators/contractors or work for small family businesses. Most are both plumbers and HVAC techs. There are some union plumbers that work in large facilities, but we don't have many of those around since most mills have closed.

[aquart]

21. Maine? Of course.

[speltwon]

40. Cops and firefighters are union, most don't require a college degree and you can do VERY well

6 figures with some overtime, for instance. Good medical, take home car in some cases, sick/vacation/comp time, etc.

[timo]

9. I hosted 20th high school reunion

last year here at the farm. I was really thrown for a loop, a lot of the kids I went to school with that went on to college didnt turn out to be all that well off, "still paying off college loans" and "tending bar till the tech market picks back up" I got picked on for being "dumb ass farm boy" and "shit kicker" .....alllll that college education and a degree and those people are losing houses left and right.

[Maine_Nurse]

12. Interesting...

I think that situation about losing homes is going to get worse with the current generation. I didn't go to college until 20 years after high school. I always made good money, but I was lucky to have been raised by people who had lived through the Great Depression, so I had a lot of financial caution. I had intended to never have a mortgage, but ended up getting one. The good thing was that I waited until I had enough down payment that my mortgage payments ($499.00/mo) are far less than any kind of monthly rent would be, so it actually saved me monthly bill money. While in college, however, I found lots of recent graduates that would, within a year of graduation and starting $35-40k jobs, go out and buy very expensive homes and new cars. Considering that max unemployment around here is $359.00 taxable per week (plus $10 per dependent), these kids are screwed even if they are laid off or out of work for a few months.

[timo]

14. another thing

In high school, I was more interested in going to Mexico drinking all weekend, going hunting,fishing,anything but school....I also had to work a lot on family farm, I took algebra 1 and had to take it twice, then in order to fulfill math req. I took math of consumer economics...which was considered a "dummie" course....in conversation with my college educated classmates I was SHOCKED to hear that so many had taken adjustable rate mortgages....and then were sooooo surprised because the rates always went UP and never down....DUH?!?!?!?!?!? I guess college skipped some of the really good things to know in life...and for what it's worth I have an associates degree in farm and ranch management that I got from a technical college, I ended up getting that because I wanted to learn how to artificially inseminate cows, and palpate cows....yeah TMI I am sure!!

[CrispyQ]

24. When I watch shows on HGTV, like Property Virgins or House Hunters,

& there doesn't seem to be a sense anymore, among young buyers, of a 'starter home' They all want big houses that are completely updated. I've seen young couples walk into bathrooms or kitchens that are much nicer than any I've ever lived in & yet it isn't good enough for them. They don't like the tile or they don't like the granite. I can't believe that all the young people featured on these shows are making huge bucks.

[Divernan]

11. My competent, trustworthy, honest plumber is a pearl beyond price.

I count myself very fortunate to have had Karl as my plumber for nearly 20 years. He's a one man business, with one guy he uses as a helper on the big jobs. When you have an emergency, he's there for you, so I never mind when he sometimes has to reschedule my work at the last minute because of another customer's emergency.

One miserable winter he had to dig up a blocked sewer pipe from my deep frozen side yard. Once I called for an appt. and his wife told me he'd just had knee surgery and couldn't work for a month. I told her, no problem - no emergency, and I'll call back in a month. He appreciated my loyalty, and I appreciate his skilled dependability.

On top of that, his bills are reasonable and I never feel ripped off. I don't even ask him for estimates before a job - I know he will be fair. At this point in our "business" relationship, we exchange updates on our kids, our health, politics, & the long term environmental disaster we agree that oil fracking will bring to Pennsylvania. A great guy, with or without a college degree.

[blueamy66]

31. I'm lucky too Divernan.

I have a great plumber and an AC guy. And I let others know how trustworthy and honest and reasonable that they are....and they get even more business.

Me, I got a 4 year degree....studied like a fiend in HS to get a scholarship, then worked at a union job, so that they could pay my tuition and book fees so that I could fianlly graduate. I worked 60+ hours a week and took 9 credit hours a semester...and did it. My fiance's son works at a grocery store and has a bit of scholarship money (awesome grades and kid) and we help out where we can....and his Univ is freaking expensive!

Anyway, I am babbling here.

I think it just can be good both ways, ya know? :-)

[Dappleganger]

16. HVAC is a good one, too.

Although they've been all hit hard by the housing industry downturn, I know that here in FL HVAC companies stay pretty damn busy.

[east texas lib]

18. Learn heavy commercial HVAC as well as controls and you will rarely, if ever, see a layoff...

Large commercial properties require year round service and maintenance.

[Dappleganger]

27. Quite true.

[CommonSensePLZ]

19. I'm a nerd

Always wanted to complete college, but I've been wondering if I should focus on making money without a degree.

Strange culture now, people spend years in college and grad school because we were promised in the '90s that with those degrees we'd be assured a job. But people wait, do all that studying, borrow and spend all that money for tuition and these days it's getting them nowhere.

Welcome to Tea Party America. :(

[CrispyQ]

25. The answer's in your sig line!

Spout bilious drivel, make $20,000,000!

Of course, you'd have to ditch your standards & integrity. ;)

[Taitertots]

22. Some people want to understand how the world works, we don't all live for the dollar

I'd rather have slightly less money than be ignorant of the world around me.

[Brickbat]

26. I responded and now think I totally misread your post.

What do you mean by "understand how the world works"?

[old mark]

29. I agree...but there are MANY people with degrees who know little outside their

field, and many with degrees who make a living doing something other than what they studied.

mark

[Taitertots]

38. And those people would know even less without college

Even if they don't work in their field of study, they are still better off with the knowledge they gained at school.

[WatsonT]

34. There are plenty of blue collar workers who are perfectly aware of how the world works

and likewise plenty of university students who are oblivious.

Education isn't a synonym for wisdom.

[Taitertots]

39. The blue collar workers would only gain a better understanding if they went to college

And the oblivious graduates would only be far more oblivious without having gone to college.

[Brickbat]

41. College grads would have a better understanding of the world as well

if they'd take a year and work a trade.

[jacquelope]

50. What do you have against college grads?

As a college grad you can learn all about the world of student loan debt.
You can also learn what it's like to be overqualified.
Most of all, you might even learn the culture of the nation where your college degree-related job got outsourced to!

[Brickbat]

54. Hee!

:thumbsup:

[WatsonT]

46. If you say so

. . .

[JI7]

51. sorry but that just isn't always true, as long as the blue collar workers keep up with news, reading

etc they can learn about the world plus depending on the job they do have a better understanding of the day to day lives of different people since their job requires it.

there are many college grads like Bush who went ot top schools but don't know anythinga bout the world. without their name or money they wouldn't be where they are.

not everyone who goes to college takes advantage of the resources offered either.

[Taitertots]

61. Reading the news, LOL

The news is the stupidest place to get information about world events. No wonder so many blue collar people are morons, they suck directly from the corporate teet and think they are learning something.

Bush knows more than you are giving him credit for, he knows enough to screw everyone over multiple times. Do you think he just has dumb luck? Just because his decisions are not the right ones to YOU doesn't mean they were not the right ones for HIM. If you remove any pretext of selflessness than his actions make perfect sense. Not everyone uses the resources offered in the way that you think that they should.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. Then get a philosophy degree and work as a plumber. n/t

Win-win.

[NashVegas]

63. The Dollar IS How the World Works

Unfortunately.

[fishwax]

32. unemployment is much lower for people with degrees

"With unemployment still about 9 percent, on average, for college graduates under the age of 25 ..."

This may be true for grads in that age group, who had the misfortune of having to enter the workforce deep in the downturn. But overall, unemployment for people with at least one college degree is 5.1%, much lower than the national average. Long term income potential is also higher with a degree, even if it's not from an expensive school. Of course, there are good reasons that people go to school other than potential income as well.

That doesn't mean everyone should bother with college, though. There are plenty of ways to lead a happy, productive, and financially lucrative life without a college education.

[speltwon]

43. correlation also does not imply causation nt

[fishwax]

44. but in this case, there is causation

College degrees lead to higher paying jobs. It doesn't follow that everyone with a degree will make more than everyone without, of course, but college degrees do open up opportunities for jobs that offer higher starting pay than the starting pay for most jobs that don't require a degree. The lower unemployment and higher lifetime earning potential for people with a college degree are neither new nor coincidental.

[speltwon]

45. but this assumes to some extent that the only difference is the college education

not the determination, other skills etc. of those who chose to go to college and succeeded vs. those who failed at it or decided not to.

Again, it's a CORRELATION not a causal link (yet established) unless you can show that ABSENT college, the people who attend and don't are the same - iow same family income, high school grades, etc. etc.

Get it?

[fishwax]

47. no, I don't buy that

"Again, it's a CORRELATION not a causal link (yet established) unless you can show that ABSENT college, the people who attend and don't are the same - iow same family income, high school grades, etc. etc."

Sorry, but that's not correct. Saying that a college degree opens up opportunities that are, on average, more lucrative than the average opportunities available to those without a college degree *does not* imply that "absent college, the people who attend and don't are the same."

[speltwon]

49. no, but making specific comparisons

like saying College grads under 25 have X% unemployment and average Y income vs. non college grads etc. etc. is great, but relatively meaningless when looking at stuff like this, since it doesn't account for all the differences.

Make an analogy to criminology.

Races/ethnicities vary substantially in their rates of criminal offenses and victimization. It does not therefore follow that one can make a conclusion about it being BECAUSE of their race, since there are a host of other factors - racism, cultural differences, different starting incomes, etc. etc.

I am sure you could find some stat that shows that people who attended nursing school have different rates of criminality than people who attended programs for auto mechanics. That would fail to account for the fact that a different group of people are attracted to those different occupations (as well as a substantial gender differentiation), just as a different group of people are attracted to going to college vs. not going to college, that can also account for differences.

[fishwax]

58. that there may be important factors other than the degree doesn't negate the degree as a factor

I understand about correlation and causality and how it relates to the criminology analogy. But it doesn't directly address the situation that we have with respect to a college education.

"That would fail to account for the fact that a different group of people are attracted to those different occupations (as well as a substantial gender differentiation), just as a different group of people are attracted to going to college vs. not going to college, that can also account for differences."

Yes, there may be other factors that account for the differences between the two groups, but as I said above, that doesn't negate the degree itself as a factor. The average starting salary for people with accounting degrees, for instance, is about $45,000. That's higher than the entry-level pay for most jobs that don't require a college degree. Take 100 people with the exact same interests and abilities and give 50 of them an accounting degree, and suddenly they've got a higher earning potential than the other 50.

[speltwon]

60. Yes. Of course I agree it's a factor, and it's significant

I am just saying that there are significant other factors as well.

[WatsonT]

33. It depends on the degree

and of course many colleges are over priced.

But in general I'd agree that some people would be better off learning a trade and working rather than going to a 4 year university.

[taught_me_patience]

42. It's not just about money

College is about learning, experiences, and challenging oneself. I would have paid any amount of money if I had the ability to go to Stanford.

[SlipperySlope]

48. I went to Stanford

It wasn't for my undergraduate degree, it was for a later degree.

The most notable thing is that I was no longer the "smart" one in class. All the kids had been the "smart" ones wherever they had been before. It took some getting used to, but it was a very stimulating environment.

[GaYellowDawg]

53. Had the same experience with my PhD

There were some terribly, terribly bright people around me.

[GaYellowDawg]

52. No shit?

Wonder whether Mr. Fancypants thinks that applies to a land-grant university or a junior college, as opposed to a 40K a year private school.