46% of DUers support the draft?! Where the hell am I?

[jacquelope]

46 votes FOR the draft? To sacrifice our men to more pointless wars?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=689537&mesg_id=689537

What ever happened to a man's right to control HIS body? The Draft is an outright hijacking of a man's body by the State! Since when does the STATE own someone so completely?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

1. A lot of people believe a draft would mean less wars

At least I'm pretty sure that's the reason for those votes. :shrug:

[Festivito]

101. Yes, when the rich have to go, suddenly wars are dropped. Thus, draft! /nt

[HappyMe]

117. I disagree. The rich will use their

money & influence to keep their kids home.

A draft would provide an endless supply of little pawns for wars.

[PassingFair]

122. I agree with you. There are always loop-holes for the wealthy.

The plan would backfire.

[Festivito]

131. I disagree with your disagreement. As the price went up, the supporters went out like the tide.

The large majority still hold power, despite the richest.

[sarge43]

121. Care to name the last war when the rich had to go?

Even if Fortunate Son was dragged in, you really believe he'd be an 11Bravo.

The rich will game the system (always have. check out the draft riots during the Civil War) and a unlimited manpower pool rather guarantees wars won't be dropped.

[Festivito]

127. Vietnam. All education deferments were canceled and the war ended shortly thereafter.

Of course dim son was safely a faking flyboy who would have gone had the draft board figured out he was not showing up for his duties.

Clinton joined the ROTC to extend his time from being drafted while he was still in schooling, however, realizing the war was ending, he did not show up -- did not have to anymore in order to keep from going.

Limbaugh was had a pilonidal cyst, poor fella.

Cheney had five deferments until the war ended I guess, and then he did not need any more.

[sarge43]

135. Education deferments were restricted in 1971

In 1969 'vietnamization' began, ie we were backing out. By 1970 Kissinger and Le Duc were holding secret talks. Nixon was setting up the board for the 72 election. Education deferment down grade had little effect on the time table.

[Festivito]

137. Renewed Sep 71, get your current academic yr, seniors get extra yr, 20 yo gets called, ie seniors.

The effect is not felt until 73-74, even then it is lotteried, and by then the war is seen as ending, it was just a matter of giving it a date to finish.

[Exilednight]

125. That's a little too simplistic. Here's my theory as to why we need a draft

The Vietnam war say many rich and influential people get out of being drafted, but it also mobilized the poor communities, whose sons were being drafted, and swayed public opinion.

One of the reasons you don't see mass protests is because people, regardless of their finances, are acting voluntarily with no sense of shared sacrifice.

[JonLP24]

142. I don't believe that is worth the risk

(I know you're not making the argument, just replying here)

Don't want to go to war if I don't want to.

[bluestateguy]

2. They think only privileged white chickenhawk Republicans would be drafted and have to serve

They are naive if they think it would play out that way.

[rucky]

3. It's easy to say when you know it's not going to happen. n/t

[madmax]

4. It's like the death penalty

it should serve as a deterent, to War. Make Congress think long and hard about going off half-cocked. No defferments for their off spring, either. No invading a country because the dictator didn't like your Daddy. Just mho.

I don't really want the draft but, I think if in were inplace those directly affected would be out in the streets calling for an end to the insanity instead of just fartin around with whatever 18 year olds do today.

[reggie the dog]

33. the death penalty does nothing to deter murder

hell penalties really dont do anything. i have been continually committing crimes for the past 16 years and the thought of punition doesnt factor into my decisions. not a minute has passed in the past 16 years when i have not been committing a crime in fact, and that same crime would keep my kids out of the military, they would fail the pre employment drug test the army gives.

[madmax]

91. I meant it sort of tongue in cheek. Not really

serious about the draft - just blowing smoke. It's not going to happen. I'd like to see it used as Rangel does - just to wake some people up.

[reggie the dog]

97. ok

[madmax]

115. I lost a few friends to 'nam

even though they came back physically, their lives were forever screwed. Most of them are dead now. My cousin lost an arm and a leg there. Of all the people who came back, he's the least bitter.

Met an RN at Reed, got married and lives his life. Never talks about it.

The apathy about these 2 bullshit wars is unbelievable. As in 2000k, no one seemed to give a damn that the election was decided by the Supremes. They went shopping.

In the future I won't be as flip posting an opinion I don't really support 100%. I see passions run deep on this issue, as they should.

Peace

[LiberalAndProud]

5. To explain,

many believe that the draft will help bring about a greater impetus for ending the wars. People will protest as they did in the 60s, etc. I think it's a simplistic and wrong way of thinking, but that is the thought.

[madmax]

8. I'll fess up, yes that's how I feel about it and

maybe it's simplistic.

Nothing else is working. We're going to go bankrupt with these wars and tax cuts for the wealthy. :shrug:

[LiberalAndProud]

13. Yes, but they aren't paying attention.

Sure, more will show up at the weekly antiwar rallies -- we've had them every Wednesday at my capitol building for more than five years. The press won't report and Washington will ignore.

So instead of a voluntary army, it will be involuntary. Men and women will serve and die. More Cindy Sheehans will be manufactured and the war machine will forge on. Except now my grandchildren will be made human fodder. Thank you, but no.

[Matariki]

144. Do you mind if I ask how old you are?

The sort of protests that happened in the 60s weren't possible to ignore.

And when people's actual lives are on the line, or the lives of their loved ones, war becomes a whole lot less abstract.

I don't agree that it's simplistic, but rather it's complicated. I would HATE to see a draft - but I hate these endless wars, fought mostly by young people looking for a way to pay for college, even more.

[Hippo_Tron]

108. Vietnam continued for years after the protests started, though

Some would argue that if Watergate had not destroyed the Nixon Administration, it would have gone on longer.

[sibelian]

132. I'm going to post this again.

I strongly suspect that bringing the ubiquity of warfare closer to the homes and families of the typically unaffected is more likely to engender the acceptance of warfare as a normality of life.

In particular, a draft will foster the perception, through conflation, that such problems cannot be solved and one can only do what one is told. This is the attitude of the citizens of nations that have a draft.

People don't think in straight lines but in parallel clusters of related, mutually supporting ideologies. If there is a draft, the average person is likely to assume that it's necessary.

[Snoutport]

10. I agree with you

I hate to admit it...and I was PISSED when I had to register for the draft to get my student loans... but a volunteer army just pulls the people who have no better option a lot of the time. Nobody stands up for them... but when the sons of the wealthy get drafted suddenly there is money and influence behind ending the wars.

sad, but true.

[LiberalAndProud]

22. If you think money and influence doesn't buy exemption from the draft,

you haven't been paying attention.

[reggie the dog]

37. smoking weed gets you an exemption from the draft

anyone can afford 20 dollars a week to stay out of the military.

[LiberalAndProud]

39. Will also prevent you from getting a job these days.

There's a choice for you, huh?

[reggie the dog]

44. only 65% of jobs drug test

the other 35% can still be had. They drug test you to work at mcdonalds, but they do not drug test you to teach kids for instance. I smoke weed and i looked into careers that didnt have drug testing, teaching has no pre employment drug screening that i have found in any state and you get summers off. it is all a moot point now as i live in france and there are very few pre employment drug tests here.

[LiberalAndProud]

54. Eligible for 35% of jobs that aren't forthcoming.

You won't need the draft. The recruiter will help you pass the pee test.

[reggie the dog]

62. How?

I know people kicked out of the military for weed. ok a person, but still they do drug test, any kid that wants to get out of afghanistan or iraq just needs to smoke hash then have a friend denounce them. failed test and you are out and free. (after perhaps a short time in military prison)


If jobs are not forthcoming instead of having such a piss poor social welfare state that kids feel pushed into becoming soldiers we should just make a high quality social welfare system, paid for by higher income tax on the rich, and people will no longer feel the need to go into the military for financial reasons. Believe it or not some people really do it for patriotic reasons. I grew up in middle class suburbia and the people i know who are soldiers today or who used to be and have finished all came from backgrounds where they had their own families money to pay for college and had reasonable chances to find good paying work.

[reggie the dog]

36. nobody stands up for them?

they CHOSE to join the military at a time of war. i would have gone into drug dealing personally if i were so fucked that i was thinking of going into the army. plus we do PROTEST the wars already, and it has no effect because the leaders dont care about us.

[reggie the dog]

34. my dad must be happy to know that he had to go to vietnam

so as to make more kids protest, and have politicians not listen to those protests, and tell that to the families of the 58 000 who died in vietnam despite the protests

[coalition_unwilling]

86. If the American middle class (or what's left of it) has 'skin in the game' (meaning

the lives of their kids), then maybe they'll stop electing morons like Bush and Cheney.

[madmax]

87. Bingo - Arm chair warriors whose kids have no intention

of joining nor, do their parents expect them to.

[LiberalAndProud]

94. And Obama did a really good job of diverting this last action.

Until and unless we have weaned ourselves from the MIC, the draft should be kept off the table.

[coalition_unwilling]

106. I respectfully disagree for two reasons: first, as I mentioned above,

people get a lot more interested in policies that may kill them or their offspring. Second, in a democratic republic (emphasis on lower-case 'd' and 'r'), all citizens should bear an equal responsibility to defend said republic.

Not sure what you mean by your sentence "And Obama did a really good job of diverting this last action." Reference to Libya? If so, I'm not getting it.

[LiberalAndProud]

133. If we would limit our actions to defense of our democratic republic,

I might agree with you. However, we have taken it upon ourselves to police the world. We have long circumvented and ignored the laws that are meant to police our war activities. If we are called on to share an equal responsibility, then I would submit that a draft provision should be a requirement for every UN and NATO member nation. Are we the only member nation with an all volunteer army? I will admit I don't know off hand, but I very much doubt it. And when I think in this direction, I can't help but note the disproportionate share of the burden from those alliances that falls to the US and to US taxpayers. Where is the equal responsibility clause there? Conscription has no place under these circumstances.

A threat to maybe kill people's offspring as a result of their political disinterest sounds uncomfortably close to ransom.

You mentioned Bush and Cheney in your the comment to which I responded. By referring to our current Libyan adventure, I was pointing out that neither party is reluctant to use military force when it is considered expedient.

[reggie the dog]

98. they do

many of their kids are in the service already

[coalition_unwilling]

105. Many are but even more are not. And I suspect that the proportion

of middle class kids in the service to those not in the service is staggeringly low when contrasted with the children of the lower class (but higher than children of the upper class).

[reggie the dog]

126. i know student loans are shit compared to free universities

but poor kids can take a student loan, like many middle class kids do, go to college and try to find work once they have a degree.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OHdem10]

7. If everyone's kids have to go, you better believe Congress

and the President, no matter who the President, will think
long and hard. Right now with volunteer military, lower
income are the great numbers of volunteer.

When it is the upper class and Congressmen and Women's kids
you better believe they will think long and hard.

[reggie the dog]

46. no, they will send their kids to the university in europe or canada

[tpsbmam]

51. People who've supported this have done so if and only if

there are no exemptions for anything other than medical unfitness. Not likely to ever happen since the ones who make the laws are the ones whose kids fall within the group/class most likely to go to college.

[reggie the dog]

64. medical unfitness=pee dirty with cannabis, cocaine, mdma etc.

it would be a joke to set up a draft in an army that drug tests in a country in which over half of high school seniors have already tried an illegal drug as a minor.

[Codeine]

9. Not a vote for war, but a vote for shared and equal sacrifice.

If the children of the wealthy have to fight it seems less likely that we'd storm willy-nilly into military adventurism.

That's the theory anyway.

[Lyric]

11. Exactly.

So long as it was gender-neutral and the trust-fund babies couldn't buy their way out of it, I think the threat of a draft would be a good thing. We'd wage a lot fewer wars if the billionaires had to put THEIR babies in harm's way.

[DURHAM D]

27. I don't want it to be gender neutral unless they get around to passing the ERA.

The threat of draft for females is why/how the ERA was defeated.

If they start drafting women without bothering to pass the ERA I will personally take to the streets - even if I am all by myself.

[vim876]

45. You won't be by yourself. nt.

[reggie the dog]

38. I am poor and would buy my daughter out of it;

I would buy her some weed, tell her to smoke it, she would fail the drug test and not be accepted into the military. otherwise i would sell enough weed to pay for her to move to europe if they stopped drug testing.

[jacquelope]

113. Way to go - and if that doesn't work I'll be out helping draft dodgers

Law or no law, MP's or no MP's.

[Dash87]

14. Unfortunately, however, drafts are exclusively for poor people.

:(

[undeterred]

25. The volunteer army we have now is made up mostly of people who

can't afford to go to college or get some other kind of training for a career.

[reggie the dog]

40. make universities free like they were in California b4 reagan was governor

or like they still are in scotland.

[undeterred]

100. Yeah, that's gonna happen.

:eyes:

[madmax]

88. I may be wrong but, I see and hear a lot kids joining

because it's the only game left. No jobs, can't afford school. It'a nice racket for the US Army. Have you seen the Army Strong commercials?

[jacquelope]

17. Problem is it'll never work that way.

Nothing ever works that way anymore.

[bahrbearian]

12. It helped end the Viet Nam war,, my number was 11

[reggie the dog]

43. how did it help end the war in vietnam?

58000 dead despite years of protests, then they just started killing the kids protesting (kent state) you had a low number and either went or left the usa, why would you want your own kids or grandkids to have to go to war? my old man was there in nam and he called our family in canada when the iraq war started and asked if he could send my little brother if he were drafted.

[LiberalAndProud]

47. Kent State was a huge factor in bringing the war to an end.

It made the protests real. Before that, they were background noise to middle America.

[reggie the dog]

82. really?

You want kids to be killed in foreign countries, and on our university campuses, so that middle american can learn something they need only open a history book to learn?

[LiberalAndProud]

96. No reggie, I don't want kids to be killed.

I want to bring the MIC to its knees. I did not support the Vietnam war. I did not support Iraq I. I do not support Iraq II or Afghanistan or this newest endeavor against Libya.

I am against the draft.

I want to literally pound our swords into plowshares. I am sick of the endless bloodshed. We are being manipulated every minute of every day and I am sick to death of it.

[bahrbearian]

103. That was alot of it . it fueled the protests and a lot of people dodged

It made people decide that the war was wrong. It personally effected them.

[lonestarnot]

15. It has moved to 47%.

[Beam Me Up]

16. I hear you!

The draft is exactly what http://www.amazon.com/American-War-Machine-Connection-Afghanistan/dp/0742555941/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1300565275&sr=8-4">THE WAR MACHINE needs: More fodder for their imperialist wars!

Come on people, GET A CLUE!

[JohnnyRingo]

18. Not now that I've seen it.

Thanx for the heads-up. I didn't get a chance to vote "no" in that until today.

[TheKentuckian]

19. It is a train of thought that if everyone potentially really had skin in the game

that it would decrease the war apathy and easy acceptance of military adventures.

I think there is a logic with substance in the idea but it won't work without a no exception and progressive war tax. The wealthy, contractors, and prime contractors must pay a heavy toll they cannot escape in order for a draft to actually functionally have the desired outcome.

The rich will sacrifice their young in the end for increased potential profits, they are infinitely more judicious with their money.

Between a substantial war tax and a draft it would likely prove almost impossible to motivate or trick the nation into combat. Perhaps even too difficult as it was early in WWII but that whips too fucking easy up and down Broadway.

[jacquelope]

23. Good luck with ANY of that happening.

More than likely the military will be dragging young men out of their homes to die overseas to profit the MI complex. The contractors won't get taxed any heavier and the rich people's kids will find ways to evade the draft. Nothing will change except for the worse.

[TheKentuckian]

41. No war tax then I don't support a draft. This is a hypothetical exercise.

You want less war then you make it have a real, individual cost to those who would profit.

If Democrats don't learn to follow the money and accept that avarice knows no bounds then we are going to utterly fail.

The art of the possible is whatever we make it be. If you accept the current set up then you accept unchecked insanity and unending resource wars.

In every effort we must attack profit or use it as a carrot. Failure to account for the profit motive means planning to fail.

[RegieRocker]

20. Mind boggling isn't it?

[MH1]

21. a) there is already a draft - an economic draft; b) Rangel's bill is not 'the draft'

ok I have to admit I haven't read his bill yet, but in prior incarnations:

1) universal service means EVERYONE serves in some capacity

2) the options are not limited to military service.

I'd have to read his bill but I bet if it's incentivized right, there will be no problem getting sufficient 'volunteers' for military service, out of people who have to pick something to do with their service time. That way anyone who doesn't want to do the military option, can go pick up trash in parks or teach english or whatever.

(I served in the military 8 years. One of my brothers did a couple years in Vista, teaching english to chicanos - even though the draft had ended. My other siblings were, I'm afraid to say, slackers. Although not purely their fault. One was rejected 4F during Vietnam for a heart condition. One tried to get in (post Vietnam) but couldn't meet the weight - what a stupid fucking reason to reject someone, imo. The third took the educational out to avoid Vietnam. Guess which one is now the right winger?)

[reggie the dog]

84. end the economic draft

make universities free of tuition like high school is, have single payer national health insurance which covers everyone, expand the peace corps, vista and the like for people looking for work but dont mandate it for everyone.

[bobbolink]

146. Exactly, but you see... an economic draft is just fine for those who don't see that option for

themselves or their children.

They are SAFE.

[kratos00]

24. I support reinstating the draft

"The Draft is an outright hijacking of a man's body by the State! Since when does the STATE own someone so completely?"

We the people ARE the state. Using language that seeks to create a false division between us and our government reminds me of Ayn Rand objectivist BS.

A draft would result in a far more moral and judicial use of military force, neocons would not be able to hide behind the "all volunteer military" rationale when deciding to go to war. The consequences of war itself would be more equally borne and thus tougher to swallow by the general public.

[jacquelope]

30. What part of "control of my own body" do you not understand?

If there is a draft I swear to God I'll start helping people flee to Australia or as far away as they need to go. Hell with this.

[reggie the dog]

50. me too, but smoke a joint, fail the drug test, and avoid

being accepted into the military in the first place. they do drug tests, frequently, in the military and test you to get in. all of us pothead would get to stay out of the military.

[MH1]

48. +1000 for calling out objectivist BS.

if someone doesn't want to participate in 'the state', fine, don't participate. go off-grid, relinquish citizenship, sure as hell don't vote. These privileges don't come free. The costs and risks of securing those privileges should be shared.

[reggie the dog]

53. explain to me the link between going to war

in a place like iraq, afghanistan, and the right, not privilege, to vote. How would a draft change public opinion which loves wars when they begin? in the best world people everywhere would refuse to be soldiers and there would be no more wars. you want all of our kids to get ptsd? at least the people in the military today WANT to be there, that is why the CHOOSE that career. If you say they have no other choice or it is the way to get college money i say we need free universities like in pre reagan california.

[MH1]

60. please re-read my post.

military isn't the only option under universal national service. at least not as it's previously been proposed, and the excerpt of the bill that I read seems to say the same thing.

[reggie the dog]

69. ok

but i still oppose making our children serve a system which seeks to arrest us and take our children from us for flowers. I also see no interest in serving a goverment that sucks us dry to make corporations rich. no matter what they had the drafted kids doing it would be making profits for some wealthy asshole who paid the best bribe and got the goverment contract.

[jacquelope]

57. So you believe citizenship = the obligation to be enslaved?

and that to oppose slavery = Ayn Rand?

Da, komrad.

[MH1]

65. You believe Israelis and Danes are slaves?

nah, you don't have to serve your community, just don't be a freeloader and rip off the benefits provided by others.

I think opposing a brief stint of service to your community on the grounds of "it's my body!!!" is selfish. And selfishness = Ayn Rand.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jacquelope]

75. Forced servitude is FORCED. There are other ways to serve the community

than being compelled to do so by the Government.

You'll find that plenty of other people besides Ayn Rand disagree with you on that!

[Youth Uprising]

114. Ironic,

considering that's the same kind of mentality fermented by the right-wing.

nah, you don't have to serve your community, just don't be a freeloader and rip off the benefits provided by others.

[reggie the dog]

49. tell my father how morally he was used in vietnam

and he will tell you how he was ordered to kill EVERYONE in the village, women, babies, the old.... if you are lucky you can stay around to see if he is awaken by one of the nightmares he still gets. neocons would still hide as they are over draft age.

[jacquelope]

76. +1000 for dispelling Republican-thinking BS n/t

.

[ReggieVeggie]

26. I support the draft if it's entirely open and fair

then we wouldn't have any fucking wars

[reggie the dog]

28. Smoke weed and they will not accept you as a soldier

it is as easy as that to avoid the draft, smoke weed. A joint a day keeps the draft away. I would smoke grass with my daughter and she would be safe at home as she would be unfit to serve due to using an illegal drug!

[HowHasItComeToThis]

29. OUR ALL VOLUNTEER MILITARY IS JUST A REPUBLICAN BUSINESS FOR PROFIT

[lonestarnot]

55. NO SHIT!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

73. And Has Been For Decades.

[shanti]

31. really, huh?

i've been on DU a long time now, and even 5 years ago, there wouldn't have been a poll result like this. influx of trolls is what i think....

[elocs]

32. How many here are willing to put their own children's lives at risk with a draft?

Or is that just for other people? It's easy to put other children's lives at risk in a draft that could put them in harm's way, but a different story when it might be your own children.

Bottom line: if anyone supports a military draft then they should be first in line to offer their own children up as cannon fodder if they truly believe that a military draft would actually end wars. To do otherwise is just hypercritical.

[athenasatanjesus]

35. If they reinstate the draft I'll have to oppose gays in the military.

Right after I take some compromising pictures of myself.

[hobbit709]

42. 46% of a 150 respondents out of 160,000+ registered users.

[kestrel91316]

52. Most of us understand that the path to fewer senseless wars involves

sending the sons of the wealthy and privileged off to die just like the rest of us, instead of letting the poor "volunteer" to sacrifice their lives because their options are so limited.

[undeterred]

56. Well said.

:applause:

[reggie the dog]

58. how would that change anything? money is more important

than ANYTHING else to the people that run our country. Do you think they give a damn if the end up losing a son or daugther out of the 2 or 3 kids they have? No, they LOVE MONEY AND POWER not humans. They generally cannot or do not feel emotions such as EMPATHY, COMPASSION, and WARMNESS. They would not give a damn if their kids went. Look at Palin, her son went to the war under pressure from her and dad.

[Ringo-san]

61. Worked well in WWI, WWII, Korean, Vietnam. nt

[TahitiNut]

66. Yup. We HAVE a draft ... it's an economic draft.

It conscripts those who have no better chance for an education and health care, for themselves and their family.

[reggie the dog]

79. so make universites free, as they were in california until reagan

and put in place single payer national health insurance with full benefits for the unemployed. while at it raise all allocations such as welfare, food stamps, housing vouchers and eliminate the economic draft. instead of pulling everyone DOWN why not just push the bottom UP?

[TahitiNut]

99. Good luck with that.

:shrug:

[reggie the dog]

102. they have it in scotland

and here in France university tuition is all of 300 euros a year. plus health insurance is a right.

[HappyMe]

118. Money talks.

If a wealthy & influential parent has a kid who might go, all Mr. Money has to do is hold back contributions and support from whomever/whatever will keep his Money Junior at the mansion. Or contribute/support to achieve the same.

[petronius]

59. You're on DU, where did you think you were?

EveryoneThinksJustLikeJacquelope.com? :shrug:

[jacquelope]

71. Support for the draft = Republican thinking n/t

.

[petronius]

81. In your opinion - looks like a lot of liberals disagree with you (nt)

[jacquelope]

110. Looks more like a lot of Republicans are trolling on here. n/t

.

[petronius]

130. You raise an interesting point. I think I'll keep a bit of an eye on your future career here...

[jacquelope]

134. Then by all means please keep a very keen eye on this.

If there is ever a draft in this country I swear I will be out helping draft dodgers with money, ammo and a way out of this country. Overseas if I have to. You can count on me being a part of the resistance.

[TahitiNut]

63. Make that 47% ... and it should be more.

:shrug:

How's the view from the cheap seats? :eyes:

[999998th word]

112. The rich kids never have to serve.Their money they circumvent the draft.Its a fact.

[TahitiNut]

140. Guess what. Under the lottery rules of the early 70s, they served.

That system was the least inequitable we've had. (It's no wonder it was in effect for such a short time.)

Now, all that's needed is to include females ... and extend "national service" to include the Public Health Service (which should be GREATLY expanded as a part of National Health Care), VISTA, and the National Park Service. (I'd say 2 years military or 3 years other, all to include 4 months of "basic training.")

[slay]

67. Stupid is hard to gauge

i don't get it either

[Waiting For Everyman]

70. I agree with you.

It would be nice if those who are so gung-ho for it would be the ones drafted, but there's little chance of that - they're too old already. So they can feel safe advocating this, since some other generation would pay for it.

I noticed that a lot of Dems are into coersion these days - you see talk of banning this and banning that, all the time. It does remind one of the RW. There doesn't seem to be much difference anymore.

It's depressing to think that lessons people died over, weren't learned, and some other generation will have to fight the same battles again.

If you want to end the wars then get a grip on the super-rich so that we have some real jobs here, then nobody would enlist... along the lines of the old draft-resistance saying, "what if they gave a war and nobody came?" THAT'S the answer, not a draft.

[MH1]

72. I'm for it (universal service, not 'the draft') and I served 8 years already.

how many years did you serve? military, Peace Corps, Vista, or other?

in case you haven't noticed, we already have a draft - an economic draft.

[reggie the dog]

74. none, not one damn minute of my time goes to any of those

I teach in a public school system. my whole carrer is about "giving back" to my people. let's end the economic draft instead of creating a universal one.

[jacquelope]

77. Right on. n/t

.

[Waiting For Everyman]

92. Serving doesn't convey the right to make defense policy

but as a matter of fact, I'm the widow of a 100% service-connected disabled VN veteran, who died at only 59 of injuries he received in that war at 19, after suffering with them every day for 40 years - is that enough for my opinion to count?

Maybe the young people who might be drafted in the future should be asked their opinion? Oh wait, that's the volunteer system we have already.

[robcon]

78. I think the draft should always be available.

It's better to have volunteer armed forces. but we should have the mechanism for a draft in case of dire emergency.

[reggie the dog]

80. I agree with this

DIRE EMERGENCY, as in we are under attack with an invasion happening. Hell I am 32 and I would voulenteer to keep an invading army out of my country be it France or the USA. The problem is the way wars are run these days they are more about making money than defending ourselves.

[jacquelope]

93. And I think the underground railroad should always be available.

So we can get our men out of the way of the warmongering bastards who salivate at the idea of culling the herd.

[reggie the dog]

83. not just men, women too

the question in the poll does not say man, no gender is mentioned. not that it changes anything for me i am anti draft (which means anti economic draft too)

[reggie the dog]

85. wars for profit will still happen

as those who make them care more for money than any lives but their own. Do you really think W would care if his daughters would have been drafted? it would have made a good photo op. i could see obama sending his daughters off to service (knowing damn well he could make sure they would never be on the front line)

[glen123098]

89. As a dirt poor 18-25 year old I oppose the draft.

Dont give me this shit about an economic draft. I am dirt poor and have been able to make it without joining the military. You say having a draft brings more skin in the game, and ends unnecessarily wars, which is a load a shit. There was a draft during vietnam. That war went on for about a fucking decade. Well, that kind of makes that argument useless.


What is the reality of a draft? The rich buy their way out of it, and more poor young people like me come home in a casket. The draft has a poor track record of ending war, and basically means that poor people like me instead of getting a choice to fight in stupid wars, we don't get that choice. If thats the position you want to take, then fine, but don't call yourself a liberal or a progressive.

[Urban Prairie]

90. I despise the US being in undeclared wars vs nations who did NOT

attack us. The entire free world and ESPECIALLY those who engage in "free trade" should ALSO be held just as responsible for keeping rogue nations under control, and not the US alone. Communist China has "most favored trade" status with the US, despite tiny Cuba being boycotted for DECADES!! Yet not one single Chinese soldier has sustained even a hangnail in "defense" of their overseas oil supply from Iran through the Middle East. It sickens me to think of our troops whether they enlisted or were/are drafted, shedding their blood in part so that China can fuel their economy by exporting goods, many that were formerly made here, in part by using energy/lubrication from products derived from the crude oil that they imported and refined, such as gasoline, machine oil, and diesel fuel.

Why are we doing, and why did we begin doing business with those "commie socialists" to start with?

Why isn't China PAYING the US for indirectly protecting their energy supply?

Why do we need to continually BORROW the funding from them at rapacious and usurious interest rates, in part, to keep our "war machine's" wheels greased?

[Cid_B]

95. No draft thank you very much...,

That 10% of Soldiers who take up 90% of your time would suddenly quintuple.... ack...

I don't want to fight with anyone who doesn't want to be there in the first place...

[mrmpa]

104. Let's do what they do in Germany, when of draft age a the draftee has the

choice of serving in the armed forces or working with a Jewish social service agency for two years. I worked with one young man here in the US, who did a great job. Let's give the draftee a choice of armed forces or community service. All are drafted, men & women, poor and rich.

[underseasurveyor]

107. Mind boggling isn't it.

I don't understand it either. There is this misguided belief that if the rich and privileged were also included then there would be no more wars. Silly I know but there ya have it. Like the rich and privileged couldn't get out of it.
Ridiculous line of thinking.

I will always be against forced, mandatory servitude.

[markpkessinger]

109. Think back to the run-up to the Iraq War ...

...and think how much different the national conversation would have been if all men and women between the ages of 18 and 25, with no deferments or exceptions, would be subject to being compelled to fight, and possibly to die or be horribly maimed, in that war. I guarantee you people would have asked much harder questions -- and demanded much clearer answers -- to the question of exactly why it was necessary, what the quality of the "evidence" really was, etc., and likely as not, there would have been a groundswell of opposition to proceeding. But what actually happened is that since the overwhelmingly vast majority of Americans knew their loved ones wouldn't be among the killed an injured, they were perfectly content to allow the "professional, all-volunteer Army" do it while they continued about their shopping.

And I think there are some cases -- to be sure, far fewer than the Government suggests -- where the country must defend itself, or when it is necessary to fight against a force in the world that seems to be the very embodiment of evil. I'm thinking here, of course, of WWII. And in those cases, I think the burden should fall across all classes fairly equitably, and not, as do most of our military actions, disproportionately on the lower and working classes.

I have said before that I would actually favor a Constitutional amendment that would bar anything more than a very time-limmited military engagement from being undertaken unless an across-the-board draft, with no student deferments or other exemptions, were in place.

I am as much of a war hater as anyone, and I certainly agree that the vast majority of wars are, indeed, pointless. My reason for supporting a draft stems both from what I believe is a need, when the country does decide it must engage in warfare, to distribute the human costs of fighting it equitably across society, as well as from my belief that a universal, no-exceptions draft would force the average American to take the question of whether or not to go to war much more seriously.

[jacquelope]

111. If you have to enslave someone to fight your country is already lost.

.

[MikeW]

116. no exemptions except medical: Duty, Honor, Country

Young people today think its a right to buy an iphone, go to starbucks and everything else. Over-privileged, most don't
understand service or sacrifice.

Time for EVERYONE (rich and poor) to put some skin in the game.

Thats the ONLY way our representatives will get the message.

[w8liftinglady]

119. As one who has seen the results of a miniscule percentage of war vets first hand

I know exactly FOUR mothers of veterans.
FOUR... in fucking white-lily,upper middle-class Texas.
Most of the people I know forget we are even at war.
most of the war vet moms have used the resources I gave them for PTSD treatment/support groups.
All of our sons have registered for the draft.big fucking deal,when 99.9% will never know what the .1% is enduring on multiple deployments.
It's so easy to judge the outcome of another woman's son when you personally don't have to worry about it yourself.

"They all volunteered."...many for 5-6 deployments.
Many are ignored when they come home.
War is a motherfucker.It needs to be for the right reasons.
Universal draft would make sure it wasn't a "get rich quick" scheme.

We ARE, after all, still at WAR.

[Agony]

124. You have it nailed... but you know that.

If a War is worth fighting then every American should wake up every morning with the war on their mind.
The day should pass with every American doing what they can to successfully prosecute said war.
Every American should go to bed at night with a plan in mind of what they can do tomorrow to help the war effort, and dream about the nightmare that is happening.

If a war is worth fighting then the country should be on a war footing, not posting lamely on discussion boards (I include myself in that) and groping for entertainment on the weekends.

I lamely stand on a streetcorner every week with a sign (and few pay attention) and talk to everyone in sight about war and greed and corruption until they call me depressing and change the subject.

Oh well?

[Greybnk48]

120. And this time NO DEFERMENTS for anyone for

any reason. Not school, not Senator's sons, not ass cysts (I'm talking to you Rush you bag of shit), nothing! Then we'll see how quickly they'll jump in if their kids are on the line.

[tabasco]

123. Universal service with no deferments

Not just for military. Mostly civilian public service, like CCC, but compulsory.


Eliminates what is now, in effect, a mercenary military.
Reduces racism.
Results in better educated young people.
Builds true patriotism.
Shared sacrifice = less military aggression.

[reggie the dog]

129. why make us waste our time in the CCC

when we are capable of finishing with our masters at 24? I would have been 26 by the time i had my MA... I am well educated, patriotic (i chose to be a teacher to work for my people, not corporations, going to the university reduced my racism and homophobia so much that they stopped exisiting after the first semester or so at university,

if poor kids dont want to go to war they should not join the army, they should go to the university and student loans (while horrible in principle as opposed to simply making universities free) enable them to go to college as opposed to going into the military.


The wealthy will get around your idea, they will just send their kids away to college in Canada, the UK, Ireland, Australia or whatnot.

[sibelian]

128. Most of them seem to think it would stop wars, conventiently forgetting

That draft doding usually entails jail and that politicians find it very easy to convince populations to go to war.

[hardcover]

139. It never stopped wars before

As the drafted GI's used to say, "We are the unwilling led by the incompetent to do the unnecessary for the ungrateful."

[CommonSensePLZ]

136. But don't even THINK of touching ABORTION! ~nt

[Better Believe It]

138. Men? Will women be exempt from the proposed draft?

[TahitiNut]

141. Shouldn't be.

There ain't a damned thing an average woman can't do in the service that the majority of men do. (Even pissing their signature in the snow.)

[JonLP24]

143. I was economically drafted

and I still oppose a real draft. I don't want to go to war if I don't want to go to war.

[bobbolink]

145. First off...you think only MEN are in the military?

Are you at all aware of the huge numbers of women vets coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan who are HOMELESS??