No public debate. No authorization. No fucking anything just send in the missiles.

[Luminous Animal]

I'm le tired.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Ud3V9NPw8

[NightWatcher]

1. (REC) but it's a democratic president, so we're supposed to be cool with it

[Zynx]

2. The United Nations sanctioned the action.

It is perfectly legal.

[NightWatcher]

5. did the UN pull the trigger? did the UN's taxes go these million dollar bombs?

[Zynx]

53. The UN has authorized any nation to intervene.

[reggie the dog]

62. no, i did here in France

France did the first strike and now the UN is asking for negotiations with Ghadafi. France stopped a massacre from happening in benghazi by blowing up a few tanks. Have the usa bobmed anything yet? i only read about the French

[Luminous Animal]

6. The United Nations is NOT our representitive govenment. Its sanction does not supercede OUR

Constitution.

[Modern_Matthew]

9. Mhm. We ignored them to go into Iraq. We could ignore them to stay out of war, too. nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

35. Please don't say "we". I know you mean that figuratively, but many Democrats

rejected the obvious war for oil and to drain the national treasury. With a smirk.

[madokie]

93. I'm with you

Ever since my war I've been adamantly against the killing of anyone or anything

[Zynx]

50. You should read up on this a lot more.

[L. Coyote]

58. It is NOT perfectly legal.

The UN Charter does not authorize military action to take sides in a civil war. Read the charter!!!

[Zynx]

72. As far as I can see, that is open to interpretation.

The authority given to the Security Council is fairly broad.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

107. It was a Security Council Resolution. 10 votes. Not "The UN"

The UN has 192 members. Of which, 177 didn't vote and there were 5 abstentions on the Security Council.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tx4obama]

4. Nice to see that since the video is from Nov 23, 2007 - this has NOTHING to do with Obama. n/t

[RegieRocker]

7. Don't turn that dial, you cannot adjust the picture we are in control.

[leftstreet]

8. What are they calling this new war? Anyone know?

Did the M$M have time to whip up new graphics?

:shrug:

[Bluebear]

11. Let's have a contest!

:bounce:

Operation Noble Sandblast!

Operation Brazilian Fake-out!

Operation Perpetual Defense Budget!

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. Those are GOOD!

Operation Level Libya!
Operation-Freedom-For-Libya-Because-we-want-control-of-their-oil-fields!

[MedleyMisty]

If it was that

We'd be putting down the rebellion. Gaddafi plays nice with the oil companies. They already had their ideal set-up there.

Now, Catherina brought up a good point in a thread that got locked. That Libya provides a strategic base for putting down other rebellions. I'd be more open to discussion about that. The whole another war for oil stuff seems uninformed and paranoid.

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. Hmmm....fly-over airspace for attacking Iran? Maybe?

[14thColony]

63. From where, our secret bases in Algeria? nt

[reggie the dog]

69. we already did

western oil companies already operate inside libya. this is not about taking their oil, we already had their oil and paid ghadaffi what he wanted and left his people out of the loop largely.

[Ikonoklast]

17. Let's just let Qaddafi slaughter them rebels!

Fuck 'em!

They get what they deserve for wanting freedom!


I'm with you on this one!!

LET 'EM DIE!!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. Yep...and fuck our citizens and their needs. Libyan Rebels and citizens are more important.

:thumbsup: GOT IT!

[Ikonoklast]

29. Straw Man.

You have one.

[in_cog_ni_to]

32. The hell it is.

You obviously care about Libyan citizens more than you do your fellow citizens. If you live here in the states.

[Ikonoklast]

37. I agree with you now. Let those dirty brown people die.

What's a few slaughtered Ay-rab freedom fighters as long as the suburban coffee-shop leftists can still get their lattes?

[Luminous Animal]

39. Similar was said about anti-Iraq war liberals...

http://www.google.com/search?q=saddam+liberals+lattes&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. Spot ON. That's exactly what these born again war-hawks are sounding like.

Just because it's Obama's war....it's good. THAT totally sucks and makes them ALL a bunch of hypocrites. Unless they supported the illegal invasion of Iraq and the idiot-in-chief's Afghan war.

[14thColony]

54. It is possible to make distinctions if one tries

No, it's "good" (as good as war can be anyway) because a) it's hard to deny that Ghadaffi is perfectly happy to massacre his own people, and has said so more than once, b) he's actually doing it and not just talking about it, c) he's made it clear he's going to keep doing it, and d) Chapter VII of the UN Charter has allowed for the judicious use of force in situations such as this for over 60 years -- it's one of the original safeguards designed into the UN system to protect international peace.

Consider this a strawman if you will, but I suspect many of the people lamenting this terrible and unprovoked aggression against Libya are some of the same ones who loudly denounced the failure of the international community to stop a slaughter that eventually cost 900,000 lives in Rwanada. I suppose they think they can have it both ways. Or maybe we should only intervene in retrospect, after it's too late. In which case get rid of Chapter VII and put the world on notice that no matter what, we're all on our own.

[Aerows]

55. I've already seen people calling others Anti-American

And of course, the ever popular ridiculing of those who are against the war because we have THREE others on our plate, and are cutting spending for everything under the sun.

You have to wonder why they are so enamored by war.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Aerows]

56. What's 40,000 people dying a year in the US

because they have no health care? It isn't like we are one of the wealthiest nations in the world or anything. As long as they die quietly and don't impact the economy or the price of oil, that's apparently okay for many.

[here_is_to_hope]

100. Out of the park home run!

Seriously.
It's what that poster and a few others are wishing for.

[patrick t. cakes]

110. fail.

:hi:

[Arkana]

66. Why is a Libyan life less valuable to you than an American life?

[Youth Uprising]

89. Why is an American life less valuable to you than a Libyan life?

[here_is_to_hope]

99. Is that a log in your eye my friend?

Complaining about money going to these enterprises when so much of it goes elsewhere to help kill others?
Why, 110 million spent on missles is a mere drop in the bucket compared to what we give, say Israel, agreed?
One cannot have two different positions on the same subject.
Seems your point of view would lead to more dead Libyans.
Is that a good thing in your world view?

[Youth Uprising]

88. Oh, the irony...

You have no business complaining about "straw man" arguments.

[cedric]

36. What a lovely attitude

Let the Libyans be murdered and tortured.

[Luminous Animal]

38. Same bullshit, diferent despot. Anti-Iraq war advocates were accused of the leaving the Iraqis at

at the mercy of Saddam.

[reggie the dog]

77. i am an anti iraq war advocate

and have been since i demonstrated the day the war began

saddam had killed many of his people during the iran iraq war, AS OUR BEHEST!!which is shitty and which is why the UN didnt do anything about it at the time, the UN was monitoring his weapons and treatment of his people before W started his war and they insisted that there were no wmd's and no mass state killings.

The people in Libya really are rebelling, it has been in the news every day for weeks have you not been following? it started with protests which spread all across the country, then when the military cracked down in tripoli the military in some other provinces refused to do so (as happened in tunisia and egypt) but because enough army remained loyal to ghadaffi he held tunis and began to push back against disorganized disgruntled people (who had to become rebels because they risk being killed now anyway) ghadaffi has lost control of part of his country already thanks to a popular rebellion. how is this like going to iraq and bullshitting about wmd's to do so?

[Jamastiene]

98. Ever heard of the CIA?

What do you think they do all over the world? Plant tulips and daisies? The truth will reveal itself in time. It always does.

[reggie the dog]

106. If they are involved i hope to find out about it

but i dont see motive for the cia to be involved in places like libya, tunisa, egypt, yemen, bahrain, saudi arabia as these countries are both selling their oil on the international market and letting multinational companies make profit off of it. These are not socialist regimes like in grenada.... but if the CIA has its hand involved i hope we all find out about it.

[reggie the dog]

65. it sucks in the usa, but here in France we have both

our FRENCH bombs were dropped today (usa hasnt done a thing yet) and yet we also have national health insurance, 300 euro a year university tuition, and a high quality all around social welfare state. Our ceo's dont earn as many times what workers earn here in France though, and the wealthy pay a 50 percent income tax rate.

[14thColony]

70. Tout a fait. nt

[reggie the dog]

81. asterix!

my first french history book was asterix et le tour de gaul. you are in france arent you?:) i am in the Var if that means anything to you.

[14thColony]

82. Malheureusement non, mais je voudrais etre la.

I'm in Mali right now for work, and I live in England. Can't seem to manage to live in France to save my life. Keep missing it by just a hair. GF's Luxembourgoise though, so I'm getting closer all the time :-).

Thus sadly I don't know the Var.

Asterix - when I was 10 I read an article in National Geographic about the Celts, and it had an excerpt from an Asterix & Obelix. Loved it but could never find it again in FL in the 1970s. So once I got to England I bought about the first 12 volumes...for my daughter of course. And I've seen a couple of the movies too.

[Ghost Dog]

87. The Department of the Var

was created at the time of the French Revolution, on March 4, 1790, from a portion of the former Royal province of Provence... August 15, 1944 – American and Free French forces land at Cap Nègre, at Trayas, at Saint-Tropez, at Sainte-Maxime and at Saint-Raphaël. The Free French fleet arrived at Toulon on September 13. /... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Var_%28department%29



Not so far across the water there is the long boot of Italy, Sicily, and then Libya, Tunisia and Algeria...

[reggie the dog]

105. I took my daughter to the beach at Ramatuelle called l'Escalet

yesterday as it was in the 70s, today the valley behind the costal ridge called Le Plaine des Maures. I don't live on the coast as it is too expensive and i dont make a lot of money, but there are enough english speakers there that i can will eventually have steady work in an international school or international section of a public school... The interior valleys and begining of the Alps are in the Var too and rent is cheaper.

[reggie the dog]

104. i like being able to buy comic books and stuffed animals

for my ahem daughter too....

[bvar22]

31. The "rebels" in Afghanistan...

...were the Taliban.
I wonder if you remember.

[Ikonoklast]

40. And that has nothing to do with Libya, now, does it?

I guess your memory ain't so good.

[bvar22]

42. Our track record for military intervention in the Middle East...

...has EVERYTHING to do with the actions we are taking today in Libya.

Do you have ANY idea who & what we are fighting for?

In Lebanon, it turned out to be Hamas.
In Afghanistan, it was The Taliban.

We "took out" bad guy Saddam, and look what happened.

Suppose we "take out" Qaddafi,
what happens NEXT, and are we responsible for it? :shrug:
(HINT: The answer to the above question is, "YES. We are responsible.)

Are you really so ready to throw in with "The Rebels" without knowing WHO they are?
"Hell YES! Take him out!" is NOT a good military strategy OR Foreign Policy.

[14thColony]

59. Not to put words into your mouth, but...

This sounds like a long version of "the devil we know is better than the devil we don't," a succinct expression of the Realist view of the situation. And the Realist view is as American as apple pie and cheap Chinese products, having brought us Pinochet, Batista, Somoza, Shah Pahlavi, Saddam Hussein, and a host of other swell guys, all because of the fear that the "unknown something else" MIGHT have been worse than them. If that's what GOOD foreign policy looks like then we might as well all throw in the towel.

By the way if by "in Afghanistan, it was The Taliban" you mean our support for the Mujaheddin in the 1980s, those guys were no more "The Taliban" than I'm a corporal in the Swiss Guard. The Taliban formed in 1994 as a Pashtun reaction to the years of civil war and squabbling among the Mujaheddin warlords in 1992-1996. The guys we supported became the Northern Alliance and were at war with the Taliban.

And by "Lebanon - Hamas" I assume you mean Lebanon - Hezbollah, right? Since Hamas is Sunni and based in the PA territories and Hezbollah is Shia and based in Lebanon, right?

But beyond that, everything else was spot on.

[14thColony]

71. And I wonder if you've ever read a bloody history book

Because that's STILL not true.

The Soviet involvement in Afghanistan ended in 1989. The civil war broke out in 1992. The Taliban formed in 1994, and took over the country in 1996. So unless they had a time machine, it was pretty damned hard for an organization that didn't exist yet to be the mujaheddin we supported in the bloody 1980s!

[bvar22]

91. The Mujahideen morphed into the Taliban,

or at least the dominant segments of it did.
Neither the Mujahideen nor the Taliban is a monolithic organization.

You can easily verify this with a casual Google.

[14thColony]

102. I'm sorry that you have no idea what you are talking about

But you don't. I am by no means an expert, but I would say I have an above-average understanding of their origins, and I can say with some confidence that you're dead wrong, regardless of what "Google" might be telling you.

The fact that some members of the old Mujaheddin later became members of the Taliban is irrelevant. The Taliban formed in 1994 in the region around Khandahar under Mullah Omar, who at first only had 30-40 madrassa students with him, most of whom would have been too young to have been mujaheddin in the 1980s. So that's the dominant faction of the Mujaheddin who became the Taliban? A few dozen schoolboys who were too young to have ever been Mujaheddin to begin with?

I suggest you turn away from Google and consult some actual books. There are hundreds on the topic.

[Nevernose]

97. You're right: if anyone's gonna bomb the shit out of Libya

It should be us! We don't know much about the other tribe in this civil war, but we know they ain't Kaddafi. So I'm with you: if anyone gets to blow the fuck out of innocent women and children and call it "collateral damage" it should be America! It's only wrong if someone else does it!

[KurtNYC]

80. Operation Keep That Oil Coming

[14thColony]

84. ?????

Logically, wouldn't the best and most convenient way to "keep that oil coming" be to do absolutely nothing?

As of this morning Gadhafi was on the verge of winning, which would mean a return to normalcy, which we know means him happily selling oil to the West as fast as he can.

[gratuitous]

85. Operation for the Independence of Libya

Sheesh, do I gotta spell it out?

[Bluebear]

86. The point is every war needs some hyper-macho "name". Sheesh, do I gotta spell it out?

[Jamastiene]

96. Operation Pretend We All of Sudden Give a Shit

about the Libyan people.

Just about any of those you mentioned will do. Mine is a bit long.

[Luminous Animal]

13. "Operation Odyssey Dawn"

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Operation+Odyssey+Dawn%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[EFerrari]

48. Translation: War without end.

Maybe I'm finally too cynical to live. It would be nice to be really wrong.

[PurityOfEssence]

57. Absolutely

What kind of an idiotic name is this? It literally gives talking points to those of us who believe that this is just the opening of a long and dreadful series of entanglements with much travel to various different places.

[EFerrari]

64. Thumbing their noses.

Tunisia & Egypt taught them nothing.

[reggie the dog]

68. here in France the journalists are calling it

"Aube de l'Odyssé" inside quotation marks and Oddysses Dawn inside quote marks as well

Who thinks up these names? The papers in France also speak of president sarkozy's desire that there be non western nations participating as well so as to avoid the impression that it is purely western meddling. and yes updated news now speaks of us and uk ships firing missles.

[14thColony]

74. Odd thing to me

Is how little France24 (for instance) is really paying attention to it. I don't mean they're NOT, but not the constant round-the-clock "all war, all the time" coverage I remember from US news. But this is my first "war" observed from a francophone country.

[reggie the dog]

79. the networks dont really "hype" stuff here in france

they will talk about it, perhaps TF1 the right wing network will hype it up a bit, but even they dont want to be accused of being like fox. i get my news online from figaro (the right wing paper) www.lefigaro.fr, lemonde.fr the lemonde centrist paper, and liberation.fr the left wing paper. i read them to get a balenced view and i blog in french at lefigaro's articles to needle the right wing anti immigrant racists. Are you in France yourself or in a french speaking country in Africa or Haiti or Quebec? Belgium???

[14thColony]

83. West Africa

Mali. And my French has gotten to the point where I can comfortably follow news broadcasts now, especially on topics where I'm already familiar with the vocabulary. For better or worse I'm pretty well-versed in military French, so I can follow the current situation with little problem.

[AntiFascist]

76. Odyssey Dawn...

conjuring up images of the "The Dawn of Man" sequence from 2001: A Space Odyssey. And I thought we were more evolved than that.

[Marr]

101. Operation Independent Libya

I think all of our operations have the name acronym now.

[somone]

10. Bringing the fire of freedom to the darkest corners of the world

aka more profit for the MIC

[Upton]

12. Apparently you haven't gotten the message..

according to some DUers:

Republican wars-BAD

Democratic wars-GOOD


Libyan "rebels"- very very good, so good in fact it's more important to spend money on them than our fellow American citizens..

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ixion]

15. yep, I'm tried, too

It's horrible what we'll do at the drop of a hat.

[Luminous Animal]

18. This new war is called Operation Odyssey Dawn. An odyssey being a long wandering journey.

[Safetykitten]

95. Or Lifetime Network Movie. "Odyssey Dawn, Not Without My Children!"

[LiberalAndProud]

19. War weary.

I wish I could be elated that we are coming to the aid of seekers of freedom. I really do. But I find myself with tears rolling down my cheeks because there will be no end.

No end. Ever. The war will go on and when it ends there will be another. War without end is our national motto.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

[katnapped]

20. Sorry Granny!

"We know you needed that Social Security payment but the dictator guy had to go"

[L. Coyote]

22. Congress must authorize war!

[in_cog_ni_to]

23. The Constitution is "Just a G-d damn piece of paper."

Apparently, Obama got the message. Bush/Cheny redux.

[Luminous Animal]

25. And there is a very good reason why Congress holds the responsibility rather than entrusting it to a

unitary executive.

[malaise]

45. Apparently not

I'm disgusted :puke:

[Motown_Johnny]

24. The war powers act gives the President the authority to do this

and the UN has authorized it

I would even argue that this has been debated publicly for some time now. I know there have been threads here on DU GD calling for Obama to send in the Marines for weeks.

If you think there is "No fucking anything" then you have not been paying attention.

[Luminous Animal]

26. The War Powers Resolution gives the President the right to attack ONLY if the U.S. is under atack or

serious threat. Neither is the case in Libya.

[Luminous Animal]

27. The War Powers Resolution.

"PURPOSE AND POLICY

SEC. 2. (a)
It is the purpose of this joint resolution to fulfill the intent of the framers of the Constitution of the United States and insure that the collective judgement of both the Congress and the President will apply to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicate by the circumstances, and to the continued use of such forces in hostilities or in such situations.
SEC. 2. (b)
Under article I, section 8, of the Constitution, it is specifically provided that the Congress shall have the power to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution, not only its own powers but also all other powers vested by the Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
SEC. 2. (c)
The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to (1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces. "

http://www.thecre.com/fedlaw/legal22/warpow.htm

[NorthCarolina]

28. Will we never learn?

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. No. We never will. We're the blood-lust country.

Always out for blood and war. We always have the money for war.

[Ringo-san]

33. We love war. Apparently, we are now Sparta. nt

[Change Happens]

41. Ok yes, deal with it!

The fucker is carpet bombing his own civilians...

[jefferson_dem]

52. Don't interfere with the simpleton "black / white" dichotomies of the "he's just like Booosh" crowd.

[Bluebear]

112. .

[HR_Pufnstuf]

46. dupe

nt

[Luminous Animal]

49. Odd, isn't it. It seems as though many now think that we are governed by the U.N.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jefferson_dem]

51. Oh the drama! Perhaps you have not been paying attention.

UN Security Council support, Arab League support, a legitimately multilateral coalition...

[14thColony]

61. The truly infuriating thing about this

Is that this unilateral and illegal aggression deprives us of our ability to sanctimoniously reproach the international community at its utter failure to intervene on behalf of the Libyan people when they were massacred by their own government, no doubt out of fear that Gadhaffi would renege on all the cushy oil deals he's struck with the west, thus proving once again that big business trumps essential human rights. Dammit.

Well, at least we'll always have Rwanda...

[pitohui]

60. the UN made the decision, we stood back and let others take the lead

what obama did took a lot of courage actually, he didn't play cowboy, he obeyed the rule of international law

maybe you think he shoulda rushed in there like mr. reagan, killed quadaffi's 3 year old daughter, then stood down and declared himself the winner?

obama is actually trying to accomplish something here...instead of getting ratings on teevee

[ileus]

67. Those are good missiles now...have faith in BO

[reggie the dog]

73. Maybe it is because this is so close to the European Union

maybe just my desire for freedom, but i really want the protestors to win freedom and free elections across the region just as i was happy that protestors won in the ukraine and just as i want the protestors to win in greece, france etc when we have protests. To see Tunisia and Egypt have a chance to get freedom and democracy is great, perhaps they can be offered EU membership if they can meet certain criteria in the next 10 or 20 years. Libya would be the same for me, they are just on the other side of the sea, not far away at all.

BIG DIFFERENCES between W and OBAMA

1. He went to the UN to ASK for war and LIED to try to convince the UN to go along with it, and still failed to get their approval
2. W went "unilaterally" AGAINST the wishes of the UN
3. There was no popular rebellion or uprising in most areas, except Kurdistan (which is actually the most stable region of iraq now too)

4. Obama waited for the UN and the Arab League to get ahold of him
5. Obama is agreeing to help the UN
6. There is a popular rebellion against a tyrant which sprang up was being massacred


i agree that the UN should look at other places where massacres are happening, i think we should have gone to sudan for instance, due to genocide. If the UN had asked for an intervention against iraq back during the iran iraq war i probably would have supported it too.

[ProSense]

75. There is

the U.N. Charter.

[jacquelope]

78. K&R! No more foreign wars unless America is threatened! n/t

.

[Rex]

90. Been doing that for a long time now.

[panzerfaust]

92. "Commander in Chief"

How they all seem to love that title!

However, I can think of another more appropriate appellation ...



Judas Goat and his flock of sheep.


Nice it would have been to have had this military action actually discussed in the US Congress.

Clearly, as action was so long delayed, speed was not paramount - the usual excuse for avoiding open discussion in congress. It seems to me that the last constitutionally correct act of war by the United States was WW2. Since that time, our presidents all seem to think that they are the reincarnation of Caesar...


With no more constraint upon their actions than any other "Great Leader"




Article I, Section 8:
Congress shall have Power ... To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

Nothing here (or in Article 2 Section 2 dealing with the powers of the president as Commander in Chief) about the Commander in Chief being able to make war and attack other nations whenever it seems politically expedient to do so.

Democracy: A grand experiment, whilst it lasted.

[Martin Eden]

94. I agree with the subject title of this thread ...

... but that video was pretty damn stupid :wtf:

[JCMach1]

103. Don't forget Sarkozy and the French getting a hard-on over finally finding a country they could beat

!

[Paladin]

108. French Bashing? Really?

Go grab a batch of Freedom Fries and clean some of your guns.....

[14thColony]

109. World War II was a long time ago dude.

Let it go. Or someone might have to point out that we got our asses kicked by many of the same enemies who had already kicked France's ass. In which case who's worse, the one who got their ass kicked first, or the one who watched it all go down then got their ass kicked exactly the same way when they stepped into the ring?

[JCMach1]

111. I say that because of the French Conservative Gov.'s excited interviews they have been giving

Sarkozy and his boys literally have a hard-on for this.