Any FACTS about Libya have been lost or DISTORTED in the propaganda war

[Distant Observer]

that has been ongoing on both sides since the initial protest began and were then turned into
armed rebellion.

Have a quick read of the official (biased) State Department country brief before it is completely rewritten ( to even more reflect the appropriate biases). It might be helpful for those wanting to filter some of the barrage of propaganda.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5425.htm

From my knowledge of Africa,under Gaddafi 'oppressive," "dictatorial" rule, Libya rose from an impoverished North African outpost dominated by Italian, French and British interest to a society with the highest standard of living in Africa.

Higher education was strongly pushed under Gaddafi, with a vast number of schools, universities and hospital built with the counties oil wealth.

The social welfare available to all Libyans included; free education at all levels (including grants for foreign study); lavish work injury and sickness compensation and disability, retirement, and survivors' pensions.

Subsidized food, inexpensive housing, free medical care and education, and automatic profit-sharing in oil revenues (ala Alaska) were among the benefits for all citizens.

In contrast to other oil-rich counties in the region that allowed the importation of cheap foreign labor, foreign firms were required to provide the same social security benefits as workers employed by Libyan citizens.

Unfortunately, all this did not prevent Gaddafi from being hated by Western Interest and their Libyan allies that chaffed at the relatively "bad" terms for OIL AND GAS deals in Libya and the refusal of the Gov to allow the kind of large exploitation of the resources that could of generated $Trillions rather than just $Billions.

Also, in overthrowing the British-appointed Cyrenaican King Idris, Gaddafi earned the undying hatred of many Cyrenaican nationalists ("Italian Cyrenaica" was the name of the Eastern province of current Libya -- which the Western powers created by combining it with Fezzan and Tripolitania) who saw the increasing concentration of power in the West and the squandering of the increasing Oil wealth on wasteful projects such as funding Madella's ANC and various unprofitably development project throughout Africa.

[CJCRANE]

1. Gaddafi didn't just shoot protesters, he shelled their towns with heavy artillery and air strikes. n

[Distant Observer]

3. Even Western reporter said that the did not witness first hand any

significant Air bombardment that extended beyond a few military targets.

This is a civil war, not much different that many others in the world between opposing factions.

Please provide DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE, not phone call from anonymous sources that
"CNN cannot confirm."

[Casandra]

4. Confirmation?

You know, it's this kind of stuff that got things going in Iraq. The MSM contributed in it's way, by passing along (over and over again)all the horrible things Saddam had done, was doing and would do, day in and day out. I can't count the times today that I've heard how protesters are being shot, shelled and being hit from the air...and this 'no mercy' statement Quadaffi (sp?) was spewing. I encourage everyone to be just a tiny bit cautious as to swallowing all this hook line and sinker. The 'truth' I'm sure, lies somewhere in between all of this. I'm only sure of 2 things...1> both sides are exploiting their perspective sides...2> NO ONE really knows the whole truth..

Now we're hearing how hospitals and utilities are being bombed. There probably is some truth in that one, although of course we are denying that.

So....we and all the other phantom countries (not an arab in sight) are in there to keep an area from de-stabilizing....to protect innocent civilian lives. Give me a break!!!There is nothing stabilizing about bombing another country and it's military and political populations (ooops, sorry didn't mean to aim that bomb there). Look how stable Iraq is...then take a good look at Afghanistan. Oh yes, we're certainly stabilizing everything..

How many are in this? Who's in charge?.or is that question AND answer too redundent?

[bobbolink]

29. Had you been reading the threads from Libya every day here on DU, you would have HAD your

confirmation.

In spades.

Instead, you want to speak authoritatively about something you don't have understanding of.

[PurityOfEssence]

5. BEFORE they took up arms in open rebellion?

Hey, the guy's an asshole, and being deposed couldn't happen to a nicer guy, but the hyperbole is beyond ridiculous.

Sarkozy said today that they were hitting armored units that were attacking innocent civilians. This does not seem to be the case; it looks to all sober and unbiased eyes that his military is trying to overcome an armed force. Whether the rebels are in the right or whether their motivations are purely honorable is really not the question.

[CJCRANE]

6. Why do you think the protesters took up arms

in the first place?

They confiscated weapons that had been used to attack them first.

[provis99]

16. why? because they want power for themselves. Duh.

[CJCRANE]

18. But they didn't start out armed. They were attacked by Gaddafi's mercenaries first

then took up confiscated weapons to defend themselves.

[Posteritatis]

24. They turned to force when unarmed protestors started getting machine-gunned

But I suppose things like that disrupt the narrative people want about this.

[PurityOfEssence]

28. Please cite instances

I find an incident in Tripoli where protesters were fired upon and something like 24 people were killed, but there's no mention of "machine-gunning" them. I find two incidents in Benghazi where people in protests were killed, one in the teens and one in the low twenties. The latter may have started with protesters throwing rocks at security forces.

There is also an incident where two policemen, suspected of having fired on a Benghazi protest, were hanged in public by the protesters who were by this time becoming armed insurgents. There are also reports that some of the African Mercenaries who were captured by the rebels were also executed.

The number of 300+ killed in three days were in an armed uprising in Benghazi.

Please state facts; this is not just my ego puffing up and calling yours out, it is very important that we all live by the same rules of facts and we attempt to get the real, actual truth out.

Thanks in advance.

[Posteritatis]

33. Very very consistently reported across various news sources when the protests started

I know you'll say "you didn't provide URLs therefore it didn't happen," because we all know providing links actually shapes physical reality these days, but you're seriously asking me to cite something about as well documented as "there was a big earthquake in Japan recently."

Spend a few minutes in Google News, or look up Catherina's absolutely outstanding link roundups on Libya here, particularly the first week or so of them.

[tabatha]

2. So why do you think there are so many protestors

willing to die to get rid of Gaddafi.

Why don't you ask them for their opinions?

[Distant Observer]

8. The Cyrenains (fr. Eastern Libya) have been violently opposed to Gaddafi for decades

As have been others. Nothing new, except for the civil war that was recently instigated.

[gateley]

12. I just heard a guy on AJE saying "we are not being invaded - we

asked for their help!" There's one guy's opinion, anyway.

[Distant Observer]

13. Like Tanks and Fighter Planes etc. Please!!!

[Bluerthanblue]

7. Gaddafi was also involved in the deaths of many people in Darfur-

he helped create and fund the "Islamic Legion" which along with the Janjaweed Militia have murdered hundreds of thousands of African Darfurians.

This isn't something trumped up recently. Are you seriously trying to claim that Gaddafi is a "good guy"?

[Distant Observer]

9. No "Good Guy" here. He also funded the IRA and the ANC etc

as well as many groups that couldn't get money from anywhere else.

[MH1]

14. ANC?

what does ANC stand for in this context?

[Distant Observer]

17. Mandela's African National Congress -- those terrorist fighting Apartied South Africa

. ... before they became the Government.

Both those who like it and hate it, acknowledge that Mandela has repeatedly put forward Gaddafi
as a model African leader. It is a great tribute to Western propaganda that even those here who call themselves progressives know nothing of the Gaddafi that Mandela knew.


http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/23/world/despite-un-ban-mandela-meets-qaddafi-in-libya.html

In Tripoli Mr. Mandela, 79, greeted Colonel Qaddafi with a hug and a kiss on each cheek, saying, ''My brother leader, my brother leader, how nice to see you.''
Ads by Google


Shortly afterward, he told reporters that he remained unimpressed by American opposition to his mission, adding: ''Those who say I should not be here are without morals. I am not going to join them in their lack of morality.''

Mr. Mandela said that he had spent 27 years in jail rather than abandon his principles and that he felt the same way about his debt to Colonel Qaddafi for his support in the struggle against apartheid. ''This man helped us at a time when we were all alone,'' Mr. Mandela said.


Nelson Mandela' Love for Bother Leader

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2011/02/nelson-mandela-loves-colonel-gaddafi/

Reflections: Gaddafi, Mandela and “African Mercenaries”

http://woyingi.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/gaddafi-mandela-african-mercenaries/

[CJvR]

10. Some people can't help it.

It is like when the doctor test your reflexes. There is no tyrant or dictator to vile not to be defended because whatever they have done the West, and the US in particular, is always wrong.

[Distant Observer]

11. He also backed the Sudanese Rebels who fought the Janjweed

Sadly, your post in an example of typical biased history.



http://www.sudantribune.com/Gaddafi-breaks-silence-on-hosting,35707

July 19, 2010 (KHARTOUM) — The Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi has commented for the first time on the presence of a Darfur rebel leader on his territory which has angered the Sudanese government.

...

[Bluerthanblue]

20. what?

Sorry "Distant Observer" but ALL history is biased.

what are you trying to say here? That Gaddafi plays whatever side is benefical to him?

How is that ok with you?

Gaddafi's agenda in Africa is to advance ARAB Africans.

....snip...
Another geographical misfortune is that Darfur borders Chad and Libya. In the 1980s, Colonel Gaddafi dreamed of an ‘Arab belt’ across Sahelian Africa. The keystone was to gain control of Chad, starting with the Aouzou strip in the north of the country. He mounted a succession of military adventures in Chad, and from 1987 to 1989, Chadian factions backed by Libya used Darfur as a rear base, provisioning themselves freely from the crops and cattle of local villagers. On at least one occasion they provoked a joint Chadian-French armed incursion into pursuing them. Many of the guns in Darfur came from those factions. Gaddafi’s formula for war was expansive: he collected discontented Sahelian Arabs and Tuaregs, armed them, and formed them into an Islamic Legion that served as the spearhead of his offensives. Among the legionnaires were Arabs from western Sudan, many of them followers of the Mahdist Ansar sect, who had been forced into exile in 1970 by President Nimeiri. The Libyans were defeated by a nimble Chadian force at Ouadi Doum in 1988, and Gaddafi abandoned his irredentist dreams. He began dismantling the Islamic Legion, but its members, armed, trained and – most significant of all – possessed of a virulent Arab supremacism, did not vanish. The legacy of the Islamic Legion lives on in Darfur: Janjawiid leaders are among those said to have been trained in Libya.
...snip...

more at:



http://www.lrb.co.uk/v26/n15/alex-de-waal/counter-insurgency-on-the-cheap

The above was written in 2004- is this revisionist history?

[Metric System]

15. I don't like war but at least this time there's international consensus and UN approval.

[Distant Observer]

19. FALSE. Look who is invoved. The Security Council and Western Arab Allies is not Concensus

Its called the POWERS THAT BE. Please look who DID NOT SUPPORT, despite the power of US influence on the Security Council.

[Posteritatis]

25. Mobile goalposts are the best kind of goalposts. (nt)

[Bluerthanblue]

21. your sure paint an enticing picture of

how good life is in Libya-

Why would anyone want to revolt against that?

You refer to your knowledge of Africa under Gaddafi- where do you get that knowledge?

What is your point with this OP?

Shari’a in Libya defines womens rights of inheritance, divorce, or to own property.

They claim to not discriminate based on sex, yet women are held in social rehabilitation facilities indefinately for "violating moral code" which includes rape victims.

:shrug:

I'm at a loss to understand what your point is. Sure- there is propaganda against Libya, but your representation of the country sounds pretty much like propaganda from the opposite perspective to me.

Can you explain?

[Distant Observer]

22. Ask NELSON MANDELA. There is good and evil in Gaddafi's Libya, but

almost no one in the "West" knows anything about the good. And the MSM refuses to look a the plain facts
of the quality of life in Libya today as compared to 40 years ago.

http://www.boydjudson.com/files/FPA_4.pdf


On October 29, 1997, South African President Nelson Mandela arrived in Libya to
award Colonel Muammar Qaddafi the Good Hope Medal. The Medal, also referred
to as the Order of Good Hope, is the highest honor that South Africa can
bestow upon a citizen of another countryFit would be given a year later to U.S.
President Bill Clinton.1 At the time, Colonel Qaddafi was a pariah in the international
community.

[Posteritatis]

23. It reminds me of the people a few months ago claiming North Korea was free, safe and prosperous

They claim it is, so it must be true!

[Distant Observer]

26. Did you read the US STATE DEPT. country brief?? Nothing perfect. But check the FACTS

[snappyturtle]

27. what I've read today from both you and Malaise has certainly put

a bit of a tilt on my viewpoint of what is happening in Libya. Like someone say up thread the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I wish the M$M would enlighten their viewers with this information so that we can form intelligent viewpoints. I hope the U.S. efforts in Libya don't become something we may regret in the future. Considering the Japanese government, the U.S. government and the UN this week, I don't know what or how much to believe. imho

[bobbolink]

30. The enlightenment was there all along--right here on DU, with the daily threads from those on the

ground in Libya.

Tweet after tweet revealed what the protestors were suffering, and what they wanted.

For example:

"For people who are worried about the civilians killed
by the no-fly zone. I have heard many Libyans say they are willing to die for freedom.

That is, if the have to die so that Gaddafi is removed, they don't mind.

They do mind being killed by Gaddafi."

Day after day, these were the messages coming out of Libya by people fighting for their lives.

I think the time comes when we need to pay attention to the voices of the people directly involved.

[bvar22]

31. I'm surprised to find you supporting this "intervention".

You DO know that the US is defunding Social Programs to support The Military,
and this NEW adventure WILL make that situation worse?

How much MORE Homelessness, Hunger, and Grief here at home are you willing to support
to fund this NEW War?
And the NEXT one?
There is NO shortage of Bad Guys in this World.

[joshcryer]

32. I would wager that bobbolink doesn't like that aspect of this.

I'm pretty sure they are not 100% behind the war, but they are not self-deluded like many here that it's some sort of neocon oil war imperialist conspiracy to back terrorists. I think they recognize that it is the result of two weeks of begging from the revolutionaries for help that caused the UN to act.

[bvar22]

34. Do you know WHO the "revolutionaries" are?

In Afghanistan, they were The Taliban(Mujahideen).

In Lebanon, it was Hezbollah.

We Took Out "Bad Guy" Saddam, and look what happened.


The US has a terrible record of Military Intervention in the Middle East.
NONE (0) have ended well (or ended at all),
and ALL have been sold to America with the exact same marketing.
"Gaddifi is the BAD guy, so the other team MUST be GOOD guys!"
Let the KILLING begin! YeeHaw!"


Once we start the killing in Libya (yesterday),
how do we stop?

[joshcryer]

42. In Libya it was Mohammed Nabbous.

I know who they fucking are, and I am taking a stand on it. If I'm wrong I will admit to it. If you are wrong you will not apologize for the slander you have committed on good people.

[bobbolink]

47. Amen. You have stated it exactly right.

:cry:

[bobbolink]

35. I'm surprised YOU haven't been reading the words of the Libyans in their

struggle for freedom.

The cuts will continue because "liberals" and "progressives" refuse to protest them, as they protest middleclass needs. Shifting that blame is very self-serving and just plain nonsense.

If we didn't have president who continued tax cuts for the rich, and continued corporate welfare, we would have money for both helping the Libyans and keeping poor people surviving and thriving.

[bvar22]

36. Whether you support or oppose ANOTHER War, all I have to say to you is...

BOHICA.

What YOU or I want, doesn't matter.



Who will STAND UP and represent THIS American Majority?
Platitudes, Rhetoric, Empty Promises, and Excuses are meaningless now.

"By their WORKS you will know them,"
And by their WORKS they will be held accountable.

[bobbolink]

37. I refuse to argue with you. Your mind is made up and you have no interest in what I think.

I have no more patience for people who insist on judging and not listening.

I'm sure you will want the last word.. have at it.

Good bye.

[TheKentuckian]

43. All true.

[Turborama]

44. bobbolink, you deserve a hug

I know how hard you fight for the poverty stricken in the US and your strong empathy for the Libyan people really touches my heart.

:hug:

[bobbolink]

46. Thank you so much. Hug gratefully received!

The is not an easy decision, and there are points to be made by all sides.

The fact remains that the Libyan people are suffering greatly, and should we ignore them, they will ALL be slaughered. While I understand they are prepared for that, it is NOT acceptable to me.

I still question why the UN didn't push for jamming G's communication system, but given that they didn't, I don't see a lot of options.

It is a tragedy all the way around. And one in which I have no say, and no power... only an opinion.

Thank you for listening, and thank you for the hug. Much appreciated! :hug:

[Turborama]

38. You make Libya sound like it was some kind of Utopia. Ask the guy 27 seconds into this video...

...what he thinks of the rosy picture you paint: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ0KQABYXgE

[barbtries]

39. why then are there so many libyans

clamoring to be free of him? this isn't snark.

[bobbolink]

48. Exactly, except..... not just "clamoring". They are putting their lives on the line in a way that

NONE OF US have really had to consider.

I really don't know that I could sacrifice myself in that way to "clamor".

I don't think anyone here really can put themselves in those shoes.

And I have done a hell of a lot of thinking about this since Egypt erupted.

Clamoring..... indeed.

[HEyHEY]

40. Oh yeah, he's a totally misunderstood philanthropist! Even 70 per cent of his country doesn't get it

:eyes:

[Distant Observer]

45. Where do you get 70% .. Past estimates show that Gaddafi had majority popular support

[bobbolink]

49. Where the hell have you been????? The fact that Ghaddafi is importing MERCS to fight

for him, to cheer for him while his own military defects somehow has escaped your awareness??????

[Turborama]

50. Past estimates by Gaddafi show that Gaddafi had majority popular support

There, fixed it for you.

[HEyHEY]

41. So, as long as you have med care and social services you're cool with murderous oppression?

Yeah, fair trade!