Stop With the if Bush Did It Idiocy

[SpartanDem]

The notion if you didn't support Bush's actions in intervening in Iraq, but support Libya it makes you a hypocrite. It's almost too stupid to address, the last time I checked Bush didn't get UN approval or any other international support for Iraq and Iraq is based on lie. Unless some you want to tell me that Gadaffi really isn't bombing his own people.

[Buzz Clik]

1. Good God! People here are making that comparison?

Stunningly stupid.

[meow mix]

2. its a great excuse to wail and fret. if we let the protestors be slaughtered

they cry over that instead.

its basically a win/win situation for thier inner dramatics.

[Buzz Clik]

4. Interesting way of putting it. I'd like to suggest a new name for DU: "Dramatics Unlimited"

[NYC Liberal]

30. "Dramatics Unlimited" - Perfect! nt

[Joe the Revelator]

7. There is a ton of stupid on DU right now.

[Davis_X_Machina]

3. DU's Spitfire Summer....

....was the run-up to Iraq. A lot of people will always see everything through that prism.

[Faygo Kid]

5. I think that's well stated, even if I remain torn on this one.

That said, Go Green.

[luvspeas]

6. BULLSHIT!!!!!!...

the entire world was lied to, to justify invading Iraq!
The Arab world was not supportive of the US invading Iraq!
The US went to war with the PEOPLE of Iraq (not the military)
You are deluded if you think this is the same thing.

[gmaki]

8. UN approval was never my issue with Bush

It is an aversion to dropping bombs on people.

AS with Iraq and proof of WMD, where is the proof that gadaffi is "bombing his own people"... what does that even mean?

[SpartanDem]

13. Rebels claim Gaddafi forces ignoring ceasefire in Misurata

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8391107/Rebels-claim-Gaddafi-forces-ignoring-ceasefire-in-Misurata.html

http://twitter.com/AJELive
Libyan forces loyal to #Gaddafi fired artillery shells into the rebel-held city of Misurata. More: http://aje.me/gUfgBW

This enough proof?

[gmaki]

19. Rebel "claims" are just that... CLAIMS

I never accept claims as proof. Just as I did not accept them in Iraq

However I do accept that Gadaffi is fighting the rebels.. the ARMED rebels. I am not saying he is right or they are right. I really have no idea. but a dictator fighting armed rebels is not exactly an atrocity worthy of our intervention in my book...

I don't believe he is indiscriminately bombing civilians any more than I believe Iraqis threw babies on the floor in Kuwait to steal incubators.

And I do not automatically believe rebel claims (who have a stake in our involvement) of Libyan "atrocities" anymore than I believe the kuwaiti claims.

[Arkana]

18. It means "literally loading up fighters with bombs and killing his own people with them".

There's also that little matter of him hiring mercenaries from other African countries and letting them go to town on rebel settlements.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/world/africa/22libya.html?_r=1&hp

This isn't spoon-fed crap from Colin Powell. This stuff is ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

And all the people of Libya did was stand up and ask for representative government. The nerve of them, right? :sarcasm:

[gmaki]

20. I don't doubt he is fighting the rebels

The rebels are armed.. they even have fighter jets (as we saw when they shot down one of their own this morning)

I don't care if he brings in mercenaries to fight them either... how does that make it some kind of higher atrocity?

It's a civil war and none of our damn business just as Iraq wasn't.

And do you really believe that all the rebels want is a representative government? and what would that be? You actually think it is going to be some kind of Western style democracy? please.

[in_cog_ni_to]

9. Un support or NOT...war is war. Period.

And all the warmongers here know for a fact that if this was the idiot-in-chief attacking Libya, with or without UN support, you would NOT be supporting it. The ONLY reason it's supported here is because it's a Democratic President doing it. That DOES make you a hypocrite. And I find it INCREDIBLE, after watching what just went on in Wisconsin (STILL going on) and the Union busting because the state is broke, seeing all the states scrambling to find money, the poor people who are suffering, the horrendous condition on our infrastructure, the crumbling of our schools, the attacks on our TEACHER'S wages, the attacks on the blue collars workers, all the homeless we have in this country, the failed health care system... that you can sit here and support a damn war that is costing us $600,000 PER DAMN MISSILE! 110 of them fired in about 20 fucking minutes. WTF? What is WRONG with you people?

[luvspeas]

11. Would you prefer to see more civilians killed at the hands of a madman?...

Yes, yes, I know that could have been said about Saddam, but that was the 3rd justification for the Iraq war after the other 2 did not stick.

I'll bet that if I took a look at your previous posts, you likely criticized Obama for not doing anything, or for doing something, or for not picking up the dog poop in your yard.

Well, what do you want him to do in this situation?

Oh-and comparing Wisconsin with Libya is xenophobic and self-centered. Get over yourself.

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. What I would expect him to do in this situation: STAY THE HELL OUT OF IT.

Let someone else spend their money, their resources, their soldier's lives for a change. I'm SICK TO DEATH of being the world's "Peacekeepers/babysitters/protectors" when this world is filled with other capable countries who could do this. I am NOT against getting rid of Gadhafi. I am against being involved in it when OUR COUNTRY is in such NEED. Why do we always come last? Why is it we always have money for wars, but NEVER have the money when it comes to taking care of our citizens? It sucks and it's disgusting that people are supporting this. And I wouldn't support this if ANY U.S. President was doing it. It has NOTHING to do with BO. However, on the other hand, the ONLY reason some DUers ARE supporting this is because it IS Obama. That's just WRONG.

[MedleyMisty]

16. I don't support it but I'm also not against it

I don't have enough information to judge. I do have enough information to know that it is very very different from Iraq and Afghanistan. And that whoever our president is has no effect on my opinion of it. I'm not an authoritarian follower, so I don't do cults of personality. Also I don't think that political labels mean very much, and I don't really care about Team Red vs Team Blue. I care about humans vs fascist corporate psychopaths.

Also, as far as I can tell this is a UN action and not ours - frankly I was surprised that we weren't one of the five countries that abstained on the vote.

It is possible to care about the fascism here and to also care about the Libyans. We are all human, and the revolution is global. If the Libyans can win theirs, it helps to keep the revolution going.

Which, like someone said in an earlier thread, the military action could be because Libya is a strategic location for putting down the other revolutions. Like I said - I don't have enough information to know what is really going on here or to be able to predict how it will turn out.

Anyway - I am not sure how caring about the Libyans and hoping that they succeed in their revolution means that I don't care about stuff here. If I wanted to be troll-y, I could say that's very much like Bush's "You're either with us or against us."

But I won't. ;)

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. It's the money being spent that I have a HUGE issue with.

This country is suffering. Each missile we fire is $600,000 and they have fired hundreds of them already. They have the money for WARS, but they NEVER have the money for our schools, our infrastructure, our Unions, our Teacher's wages, our poor, our homeless, our working poor, our blue collar worker, our health care system or our homeless. Why are the Libyan people more deserving of OUR taxes dollars? WHY? THAT is MY issue with this war. We cannot afford it.

[Xicano]

31. +1,000,000

Sing it in_cog_ni_to!

[Arkana]

10. Not to mention the circumstances with Libya are pretty cut and dry.

We have a strong coalition, explicit UN approval, and we're not even the lead singer this time.

And Muammar has made it pretty clear he's going to kill everyone who dares stand up to him, so he's got to be stopped one way or another.

[luvspeas]

12. That's the part I admire...

Obama did not give in to all the people who were screaming "why doesn't he do something?" He has obviously been doing a lot.

[joe_sixpack]

14. You say he has to be stopped....

so you mean by any means necessary? You support regime change? What if the no fly zone is not enough, do you support sending in troops?

[Arkana]

17. If we're not the lead singer in the choir, then I don't see what's wrong

with chasing out a leader who has one of the worst human rights records in the world and has given demonstrable cause for being run out of town on a rail. If the rebels can do it with a UN coalition protecting their backs, I won't lose any sleep at night.

Let me guess--you were one of the folks who was chiding Obama for "dithering" a few days ago?

[joe_sixpack]

21. Just wanted to get it on record

because if the no fly zone is not enough, all the concerns you have about Gadhafi's brutality will remain.

I was not dithering about Obama doing nothing. The recent activities in that part of the world are still very confusing and unprecedented. I don't pretend to have an answer as to what caused them or what the best course of action is. I think it's way too early to be able to tell who the bad guys are or who the good guys are. I'm not naive enough to fully accept the media's feelgood headline that all this is strictly about freedom loving and friendly people starved for democracy who finally got the courage to throw off their shackles. I think a female news reporter made that mistake and paid the price for it.

I know that Gadhafi's a lunatic who's capable of evil and brutality, but I know there are a lot others as bad or worse than he. Should Iran's populace attempt this, and be treated just as forcefully by their government, it's interesting to see what happens then.

[MedleyMisty]

25. Females are attacked and raped all over the US all the time

In fact, recently an 11 year old American girl was gang raped by a lot of American dudes, in America, and some Americans blamed her for it. Obviously Americans are not freedom loving and friendly people who want democracy.

[DevonRex]

15. ICAM. KnR nt

[TomClash]

23. Then I suppose we should be supporting attacks in Bahrain and Yemen too?

Many been killed in Bahrain by Saudi and Government forces. The 5th Fleet is sitting there doing nothing.

Why Libya and not Bahrain?

The comparison to Clinton's failure to act in Rwanda's genocide is far more absurd than any Iraq comparison.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Actually I clearly remember the hearings at the Security Council

and the actual support and vote for war resolution from the UN...

Then again I watched the whole thing on the SPAN. Those were LONG and really bad days.

Just saying that if you are going to go there, at least try to keep to the facts and the fact that the UN security Council did sign on to it. yes even China and Russia... I remember the dang vote, very well.

And throughout I want. THEY ARE LYING... starting with a certain SOS (Powell)

As to this, I suspect it is partially about oil... how much the following days will tell... let's just say Libya is a great source of Brent Light Oil and Italy draws 60% of it's supply from Libya... but... if this is even 80% about genocide then you could count me in reluctancy. Otherwise, no, not really.

Nuance... it is a good thing...

[SpartanDem]

29. There was no war resolution for Iraq

the UN declared our invasion illegal

[LWolf]

27. The hypocrisy is rank.

Of course, DU is a different place since GWB's terms in office. While it still bills itself as a "left-wing" message board, it's not exactly friendly to the left, just as the current administration is demonstrably unfriendly to the left.

Too many Democrats, too many ELECTED Democrats, and too much of DU, support all kinds of actions on the part of the Obama administration that would have roused some opposition if GWB had done the same.

[TBF]

28. Yes, perhaps this activity will earn Mr. Obama another nobel peace prize ...

:woohoo: :woohoo:

:sarcasm:

[somone]

32. To make Alfred roll over in his grave again?

[athenasatanjesus]

33. False equivalencies rule political debate nowadays.

Seems like I can't have a political opinion nowadays without someone telling me I'm just as bad as they are on the right.

ftr..I don't support the attack,just because I don't trust the media information about it however II just don't like the hypocrisy charges.

[Zoeisright]

34. Yep, exactly. Thank you.

Differences between different situations are lost on many people.