My detailed anti-war perspective on Libya

[Ramulux]

The world is not in great shape as a whole. We are suffering from a world-wide economic recession and things like over-population, failed trade policies, starvation, and totalitarian/corrupt governments are making things very hard for everyone on this planet. Obviously, we would like to solve all these problems, we would like to help the millions of people living in poverty and suffering under brutal dictatorships.

But we cant help everyone and whenever we try to help in a militaristic/violent fashion it just happens to almost always turn out terribly. The USA and the UN have been meddling in other countries affairs for a very long time. You could make the argument that we do so with good intentions, but it almost always results in a negative change for the population. Look at the history of our relationship with various South American countries. We have subjugated an entire continent and only in the past 2 decades or so have a handful of the countries there attempted to bring about economic independence and security.

The point is that we fuck shit up all the time. We make impassioned, eloquent speeches about the suffering of people in these nations and then we go in whether its with economists and politicians or soldiers and tanks, and we fuck shit up. The reality right now is that Gaddafi is in charge of Libya, he is the leader of the country. Regardless of whether we like the fact that he placed himself there during a military coup, doesn't change the fact that he is legally and politically in charge. What that means is that we have 2 options, we can respect the sovereignty of the Libyan nation or we can ignore the existence of the Libyan government as a legitimate entity and declare war on them. We can make whatever excuse we want about why we are doing it, but bombing a nations military is an act of war.

This begs the question, why are we declaring war on Libya and not any of the other nations with leaders who have engaged in atrocities similar to what Gaddafi has done. It needs to be asked and many people on this website just ignore this basic important question. If we invade Libya and not Bahrain even though there is little difference between the situations there, we are making the case that Libya is somehow more important and more deserving of the attention of the international community. From there you can extrapolate that the international community cares more about the suffering of the Libyan people than that of say, the N. Korean people who have lived in a nation-wide concentration camp for decades. Why is Libya important? Why do they deserve the attention and resources that other countries maybe need even more than them?

As a nation we have to understand the consequences and implied statements of belief that stem from decisions like choosing to declare war on one country and not another.

My belief is simple, what is happening in Libya is horrible but it is no more horrible than what citizens of a dozen other nations on this planet have faced for years. I do not believe it is right of us to expend precious resources and currency to invade and topple a foreign government in Libya, I believe it implies that we are choosing favorites and making ignorant, callous, politically motivated, wrongly utilitarian, decisions that show our lack of regard for the suffering of people in other nations, suffering that in many cases has gone on longer and in a more extreme fashion than that of Libya.

[Joe the Revelator]

1. I strongly disagree with you, but this post is well done.

Well said.

[ButterflyBlood]

15. Agreed

At least nice to read a dissenting opinion that consists of more than "IT'S ALL ABOUT OIL!"

[Ramulux]

18. Why is it that you disagree?

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. I agree completely

K & R

[JonLP24]

3. I've seen a couple of your posts on this topic

and I appreciate it. I'm not sure if I support, deep down in my gut I feel like I'm against it or I was more so at the beginning. You touched on one of my concerns, which is how this is going to turn out. I'm sure it will start out smoothly but I have fears it will end terribly.

Like I said, I'm really on the fence so I appreciate reading comments from both sides but the debate on this issue has gotten ugly, with a few accusing others of being "Pro-Gaddafi" or some other nonsense.

[somone]

4. Great post

[HEyHEY]

5. Wow, an actual opinion against this that doesn't just scream "OIL!" "WAR MONGERS!"

I'm shocked.

However, I think there's a major difference between the situations in other countries and Libya. The amount of killing is far greater, as will be the fallout. If Gaddafi wins this anyone even suspected of being opposed to him will die. He'll likely even take out entire tribes on the accusation they fought against him. Scary stuff we're talking here.

I do agree that we don't help other nations enough. Sudan was disgusting, Rwanda too. So let's not let those mistakes happen again.

[Ramulux]

6. I think you missed the point

First off, whats happening in Libya is mild if you compare it to the horrible treatment that people of many other nations have experienced for many years. For example, N. Korea is fucking hideous, I dont need to get into the details, I am sure you are aware of the many atrocities committed by the Kim family over the past several decades. If you want to go by sheer numbers, the situation there makes Libya look tame by comparison.

The point that I am trying to get across is very simple. Horrible things happen all over the planet and the UN and the United States do not have the ability to fix all these problems, especially if you consider the fact that we are in a global recession. What that means is that, when we do choose to fix certain countries problems we are in essence making the case that that problem is more important than that of any other country. My position is that what is happening in Libya is horrible but it is no more horrible than what has been happening in many other countries all over the world for decades. I am simply trying to get people to understand what the unintended consequences are from making utilitarian judgments about the importance of one countries problems over anothers.

[HEyHEY]

7. Its not a matter of which country we deem more important

It's a matter of which ones we CAN help. If we go into the DPRK then we're talking a serious, maybe nuclear war, ramifications are far greater, that's terrible. It's extra terrible for the people there.

Libya? We can stop it. We should.

[Ramulux]

9. I dont understand

First off, how do you know we can save Libya? There are already many figures in the media and international political community who are saying that the UN and other countries might have to send in ground troops in order to really make any sort of difference.

Secondly, how do we know that this invasion will not further provoke Gaddafi and lead him to senselessly murder even more people? Gaddafi could hold a press conference tomorrow in which he says that if the UN does not stop its current course of action he will escalate the conflict. Under that situation the UN and the US would be directly responsible for the loss of civilian life from that point on. We have to stop pretending like the fact that he murders his own people gives us the right to possibly inflict even more damage on this country. Our bombings have already killed people, people we know nothing about, people who could have been blackmailed into serving Gaddafi, people who are simply not in a position in which they can rebel against the ruler of their nation. Yet somehow, we think it is totally appropriate to kill anyone serving Gaddafi.

The point is that this is not simple, this is going to take longer than people expect and we are going to cause great damage to this countries resources and people. To say that we can "stop him" like we are stopping a simple robbery is dishonest, this is an international declaration of war and things are going to escalate in very frightening ways and I think many people are going to be surprised that this was not the quick "shock and awe" campaign that the UN and USA have lead people to believe.

[HEyHEY]

11. For now, Bengahzi is no longer being bombarded with gaddafi's bombs.

That's what I care about.

[bobbolink]

12. Have the people of North Korea asked for help?

[Ramulux]

13. Only constantly for a couple decades now

Most people over there are so brainwashed they dont even understand what the world is like outside of N. Korea. The country is one massive experiment in brainwashing and has been that way for a long time.

[bobbolink]

14. That's funny. Never saw any evidence of a revolution, nor requests for a no fly zone.

Libyans, on the other hand, have been very vocal about it.

[Hugabear]

17. So killing is okay as long as there's not a revolution and they haven't asked for a no-fly-zone

North Korea doesn't need to use planes to bomb its own people. They do a very efficient job killing their people through the use of concentration labor camps and starvation.

[bobbolink]

19. I'm sure you can see the difference. I'm getting the impression you posted that as a strawman,

thinking it would shut us up.

No such luck.

When you see photos of North Koreans like the following, please send them on to us:



http://www.arabianbusiness.com/incoming/article386489.ece/ALTERNATES/g3l/Libya+no+fly+zone.jpg

[Hugabear]

21. Thank you for proving my point

The North Koreans who are dying in these concentration camps can't ask for help. It's not as if North Korea allows outside media access to them.

[Ramulux]

20. Exactly

Lets just ignore the fact that N. Koreans can barely communicate with the outside world and have also been conditioned for decades to believe that the Kim's are literal gods who they must never speak out against. You dont get rebellions inside concentration camps and you dont get rebellions from brainwashed people who have been lead to believe that eating grass is a normal way to stave of hunger.

[bobbolink]

22. and thank YOU for proving MY point. If you don't think that Libyans have been

"brainwashed" and incarcerated, then you haven't listened to any of the news from Libya.

They got to the point where they simply didn't care about the consequences anymore, and when the Koreans get to that point, things will change.

But go ahead and bash me and others who disagree with you.

WE no longer care about that, either. Have at it.

Bye.

[Ramulux]

23. Nothing I said has anything to do with your point

What are you talking about? Are you saying that the situation in Libya is worse than the situation in N. Korea? You realize that is a demonstrably false statement at least in terms of civilian casualties.

[Hugabear]

16. Actually, you are wrong. The amount of killing in Libya is far less than some other countries

Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone, Burma, and North Korea just to name a few.

[Mimosa]

8. K&R Ramulux. Great points. n/t

[Modern_Matthew]

10. K&R. Well said.