Illegal drug users - do you in any way feel responsible for this?

[True Earthling]

Gunmen Kill 10 In Rampage At Acapulco Bar
Updated: Saturday, 19 Mar 2011, 12:20 PM EDT
Published : Saturday, 19 Mar 2011, 12:20 PM EDT

ACAPULCO - Ten people were shot dead when gunmen stormed into a nightclub and opened fire early Saturday in the Mexican resort town of Acapulco, police said.

On Tuesday, gunmen pursuing a rival killed six people, including two children, after opening fire on two family homes in Acapulco.

Earlier in March, authorities unearthed nine bodies in three areas near the beach town.

Nearly 35,000 people have been killed in Mexico's drug-related violence since the end of 2006 when President Felipe Calderon launched a military-led crackdown on the country's powerful drug cartels.

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/gunmen-kill-10-in-rampage-at-acapulco-bar-20110319-ncx

[wtmusic]

1. Hoo boy.

:popcorn:

[tammywammy]

2. Scoot over...

:popcorn:

[wtmusic]

10. Lotsa room tw

Y'know, it wouldn't kill Skinner to put a bar in GD.

The Lounge gets all the fun. :(

[fishwax]

13. .

:popcorn:

:beer:

[devilgrrl]

3. I blame law makers

:popcorn:

[True Earthling]

35. So if you disagree with a law then it's OK to break it even if one of the ripple effects

is 36,000 deaths? I'm not saying a user is directly responsible but there is a connection.

Regardless of what the law is... if there was no demand for the product then there would be no need for production.

The reality is that there IS a law and to say that illegal drug use and 36,000 people killed since 2006 is OK because there would be no drug war IF drugs were legal... that is a self-serving rationalization.

DU would boycott in a heartbeat any product whose production resulted in torture and murder of 36,000 but since that would mean giving up whatever... well, party on dudes.

[99th_Monkey]

38. OK, I'll state the obvious. What about if the War on Drugs was totally called off?

and all drugs were legalized? That takes the whole drug thing totally out of the hands of criminals and anti-drug "warriors", and puts it where it belongs, into the hands of ordinary people to make their own decisions about drugs, without all the killing, shaming, maiming, and brutality that the War on Drugs represents.

[underseasurveyor]

50. In a nut shell ++++++ A go-zillion

:toast:

[99th_Monkey]

53. thanks.

a gi-zillion is a lot.

:fistbump:

[TheMadMonk]

54. There's also a law(s) which says it's OK to participate in the deaths...

...of 80,000 people if you're generating electricity from coal.

Prohibition tells us all we need to know about attempting to manage a demand for a product.

The fact is that there is a demand for instant happiness/oblivion. A demand that CAN NOT BE MADE TO GO AWAY.


Given that demand, the sensible course of action is to cater to that demand in the safest way practicable.

Now, the MOST PROFITABLE course of action is prohibition an illicit trade.


Begs the odd question or two don't it?

[tavalon]

62. I wish I knew how to put pictures up

Because this is not just Fail, it's Whale Fail.

Someone, please bring the Whale.

[LooseWilly]

68. Ain't a drug user's responsibility to prevent killings... pay us like cops, maybe we'll do something

I'd be interested to hear how you plan to "amortize" the projected 36K killings amongst the drug users who you seem to want to pin the responsibility upon (as opposed to the lawmakers... because if there IS a law, the consequences of that law no longer falls upon law makers in your mind... but only upon citizens who don't obey). I'd also be interested in hearing how you plan to "amortize" the payments for the prevention of the killings amongst the drug users... (the lawmakers get paid to make the laws... surely you don't object to paying the citizens for obeying the laws?...)

Until you find a way to pay citizens to obey the law... it ain't a citizen's responsibility if the laws get broken... that's law enforcement's problem... and if they can't handle it... then maybe their jobs should be privatized like teachers jobs are talking about being privatized? (Return of the Pinkertons... what could go wrong?)

:+

[Bandit]

119. What about the 400,000 deaths a year attributive to tobacco

:shrug:

[snooper2]

128. My weed is violence free, It comes with a sticker on the baggie

Directly imported by non-violent narco traffickers :smoke:

[blogslut]

4. The US drug war is one of the worst things done in modern history

[leftstreet]

5. No. I blame alcoholics

Why are there bars?

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[tavalon]

63. Really!

With big parking lots. And yet, you're not supposed to drink and drive. Way to give mixed messages. Just like the American government with the War On Drugs, in which we play on both sides.

[SpiralHawk]

91. The gun nuts are clearly to blame here - and they will roast in Hell eternally

as every True Chrispian already knows.

[Warren DeMontague]

6. Just as much as I blame drinkers for everything Al Capone did.

Which is, I don't. The problem is prohibition.

[Taverner]

7. Wow - straw man CITY!

What's worse, sex with a bobcat on a John Deere riding mower? Or having your back cheese-grated with a rusty utensil?

[petronius]

20. A bobcat is like a cougar, right?

:shrug:

[Taverner]

26. I think so - and you could put a saddle on one too...

[tavalon]

83. I think it would have to be a small saddle.

Aren't bobcats pretty small? I like ice cream. How about you? I wonder if ice cream is the cause of the War On Drugs? Wait, hear me out........








Oh, never mind, I didn't really have anything of any substance to say. Really.

[Obamanaut]

111. No, a cougar is more like a mountain lion whereas a bobcat is much smaller

with a nub of a tail.

[tavalon]

64. Damn, hard questions!

So very relevant and yet.........LOL

[cliffordu]

8. Well....

:popcorn:

[NYC Liberal]

9. Why should they? nt

[Very_Boring_Name]

43. I'd assume because it's their money fueling this violence

[Zoeisright]

44. Exactly.

But denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

[NYC Liberal]

56. The people killing are fueling the violence. nt

[Very_Boring_Name]

79. Of course. But there wouldn't be any killing if they weren't making any money off it

[Le Taz Hot]

110. And they're making money off of it because it's illegal.

See how that works? We already did this during Prohibition -- worked out then about as well as it's working out now.

[tavalon]

65. For a white woman, I always seem to be in the minority

I was a 10%er in the run up to the Afghanistan debacle and now I live in the 13% land. Fuck, I can't ever get a break, can I?

[Le Taz Hot]

112. I wouldn't take that # seriously.

"Liberal" has a VERY BROAD meaning for some.

[tavalon]

118. I'm a liberal broad, getting more liberal and more broad by the day

Bernie Sanders, Howard Dean, hell, even Al Gore.

[Le Taz Hot]

124. I can relate..

And here they told me I was going to mellow with age. :rofl:

[msongs]

11. if people could grow their own most of that gang stuff would stop nt

[NoTimeToulouse]

16. I'm not so sure. You might have those interested individuals

and their parent organizations that wouldn't want you to buy it anyplace else but from them.

It might be legal to buy but only so long as you bought from brand x.

[Le Taz Hot]

114. Uh, huh????

If you're growing your own, why would you be buying it? I'm confused.

[davidinalameda]

12. I'm looking forward to responses

I want to see how people justify their NO answers

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Um, because most "illegal drug use" involves pot that is grown domestically?

For starts.

Secondly, it's the prohibition that causes the violence. Pure and simple.

[davidinalameda]

28. I'd argue that you're wrong

about most drug use involved locally grown pot but anyway

you have crimes committed not on that scale but crimes committed nonetheless by meth producers

you have entire neighborhoods poisoned by the byproducts not to mention the crimes committed by the users trying to get money for their next fix

my favorite is how children and babies are frequently found in meth house; my all time favorite was the arrest of a woman 5 months pregnant for cooking meth; it's probably a miracle that her pregnancy was that far along

meth has replaced crack as probably the number one problem drug but crack is still out there

you have heroin imported from Asia; I wonder what kind of crimes are committed by the producers to protect their crop and to discourage any competitors and the authorities as well

and let's not forget the most common LEGAL drug, alcohol, and the number of people killed and hurt by drunk drivers every year

alcohol is the prime example of how the legalization of a drug does not necessarily end any crimes associated with its use

[Nevernose]

30. Legalizing alcohol HAS had the effect of stopping organized crime

Or at least the areas of crime organized around alcohol.

You actually illustrate one of the reasons that the war on drugs should be ended: despite the lives, money, civil liberties, and decades spent in fighting drugs, virtually anyone in America can walk out their front door and score something. In countries where the drugs are decriminalized, usage rates actually went down (Holland and Switzerland) and drug-related theft went down.

I'm with you to a point: meth is fucking EVIL and there's no way it should be sold at 7-11, but what we're doing now is worse than useless and I suspect even worse than legalization/decriminalization.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. Alcohol is not meth is not pot, for starts, Second, driving under the influence doesnt equal use.

Endangering other people is, and should be, against the law.

For once, though, I'd like to see someone come up with a cogent justification for the war on POT SMOKING BY CONSENTING ADULTS that doesn't require recourse to meth, drunk driving, crack violence, or "the children".

[Le Taz Hot]

117. +1

Especially for your last paragraph. It's when they start stretching ANY argument to include extraneous elements you know they've just lost the debate.

[KittyWampus]

95. "most"? Most as compared to cocaine/crack, meth, heroin combined?

[Warren DeMontague]

136. Yes. MOST "illegal drug use" in the USA involves pot smoking. Far and away.

[True Earthling]

142. Even if it's domestic how do you know it's not grown by Mexican cartels?

Cartels growing pot in CA, ID, TX, CO, OR...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=709762

[Warren DeMontague]

145. One, I haven't smoked it in years, and two, the answer is to END PROHIBITION.

Sorry. The ninnies who need to tell consenting adults what they can or can't ingest into their own bodies are responsible for the clusterfuck known as the "Drug War". Pure and simple.

[ZombieHorde]

24. Most drugs in the US don't come from Mexico.

I imagine those who live by the boarder may be buying some drugs of Mexican origins, but the rest of us aren't.

[True Earthling]

27. Do you have stats to back that up?

On the other hand I'm guessing that most drugs produced in Mexico are smuggled to the U.S.

[ZombieHorde]

32. You can tell when drugs have been imported because they are squished.

You probably won't know where the drugs have been imported from, but you can tell it has been packed tight. Local drugs are packaged completely differently than drugs which have been packed into a car.

The northern boarder states have a lot of meth labs and marijuana grow operations. The drug dealers would have to travel across the country and then compete with the local drug producers, who already have regular clientele. Some Mexican drugs probably make their way up north, but most pot, which is easily the most common illegal drug, is domestically grown.

I am not sure where our heroin comes from, but heroin is not half as popular as meth or weed.

[tavalon]

67. Smuggled is an interesting term

Technically correct, but when the American team is playing both sides, that "smuggling" thing gets a little mushy. I cannot believe I'm actually engaging this.

[tavalon]

69. I think the platypus is probably the silliest looking animal on earth.

On the other hand, a slow Loris can bring a smile to my mouth almost every time. They don't do drugs, BTW, but they do eat nasty looking grubs. And they look cute doing it!!! How, I ask, is that possible?

[davidinalameda]

29. coke is still coming up that way

not sure if heroin is smuggled in from Mexico or not

I'm sure some is

[ZombieHorde]

33. I don't think coke is half as popular as marijuana and meth in the US.

I imagine coke and heroin are a small percent of the drugs taken in the US.

[JonLP24]

36. Serious?

I'm with you on heroin but in my experience, cocaine is far more common and easier to find. Plus it doesn't have the stigma like meth does (crack is weird that it has stigma like that when it isn't very different at all from coke)

I think what you're talking about is produced here but my understanding is ever since the US tightened up on the precursors, the stuff just gets made outside the border and the end product ends up here. But cocaine is probably the most commonly used illegal drug after cannabis, at least in my experience when it comes to prevalence and the number of users.

[ZombieHorde]

37. Marijuana is the most common illegal drug used in the US.

Marijuana is the most commonly used illicit drug, with a rate of 6.1% (14.6 million current users). There were 2.0 million current cocaine users, 467,000 of whom used crack. Hallucinogens were used by 929,000 people, and there were an estimated 166,000 heroin users. All of these estimates are similar to estimates for 2003.

Read more: Overview of Drug Use in the United States — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0880105.html#ixzz1HCuET8rG

Coke may be popular in your area, but weed can be grown almost anywhere in the US by amateurs. I live in a town in Montana; we have medical marijuana shops all over the place. The shops are technically illegal. People throw pot seeds along the folf paths in the mountains, and sometimes people throw seeds on the courthouse lawn as a protest. Pot is very common in some places.

[JonLP24]

39. I didn't say coke is more popular than cannabis

More popular than meth is what I meant. Of course cannabis is most commonly used BY FAR everywhere I go. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :)

[ZombieHorde]

51. Oh, OK. nt

[tavalon]

94. It's a class distinction

Crack is cheaper so it's considered low rent for the lower classes.

[davidinalameda]

134. per capita probably

still doesn't mean that the smuggling of said drugs doesn't lead to crimes such as those in Mexico

and meth is also being imported from Mexico

not all of it is homemade

[True Earthling]

138. Mexican cartels are growing marijuana in Calif...

Firefighters discovered more than 30,000 pot plants growing near the Santa Barbara blaze. Pushed north by a Mexican army crack-down, tougher border controls, and violent gang wars back home that have led to hundreds of killings, these cartels view California's 31 million acres of wilderness as a green El Dorado for marijuana cultivation. Not only is it closer to millions of eager American pot-smokers, but this vast expanse of land is simply too big for the state's sheriffs and forest rangers to monitor.

So far, the extreme violence that the Mexican cartels practice back home hasn't spilled over to California. Up north, says one Drug Enforcement Administration agent, "They're better behaved." But the main Mexican cartels — La Familia, Los Gueros, the Sinaloa and Tijuana cartels — are all growing cannabis in California, and have ties with Hispanic gangs in 240 cities across the U.S. For now, says DEA spokesman Rusty Paine, "The kidnapping and the killings are on the other side of the border. But any time you have drugs, money and weapons together, bad things will happen." And with many of California state parks set to close down, odds are they'll happen soon.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1917547,00.html#ixzz1HGta4pL1

and in Texas...

MEXICAN CARTELS GROWING MARIJUANA IN NORTH TEXAS
Mexico’s nimble drug cartels are leapfrogging tightened border security and establishing sophisticated marijuana-growing operations in North Texas and Oklahoma, law enforcement officials say.

"There is no doubt" that three big marijuana fields uncovered this month in Ellis and Navarro counties "have a tie to the border and a Mexican drug cartel," said a drug investigator for the Department of Public Safety.
"They brought the tenders up here from Mexico to do the work.
"This is not Joe Bob growing some marijuana to smoke. These are professional drug operations," said the investigator, who asked not to be identified for security reasons.
http://cannazine.co.uk/cannabis-news/united-states/mexican-cartels-growing-marijuana-in-north-texas.html

and Colorado, Oregon and Idaho...

The Sierra operations are the latest in a growing number of illegal plantations run by foreign suppliers who have moved north of the U.S.-Mexico border where they are closer to U.S. drug markets. Of the 82 individuals arrested in the "Save our Sierras" sting, all but two were Mexican or some other foreign nationality.

Bankrolled by sophisticated drug cartels, suppliers are sidestepping border patrols to grow in relative obscurity on Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service lands across the West and even into the Southeast.

"It's easier to cross the border to grow marijuana on public lands than to grow it in Mexico and smuggle it across," Krogen said.

Earlier this month, $2.5 million worth of marijuana was seized from a sophisticated pot-growing operation in the mountains near Colorado's Cheesman Reservoir in the Pike National Forest. In early June, hikers in a remote area of southwest Idaho stumbled upon a marijuana crop that netted 12,545 marijuana plants with an estimated street value of $6.3 million.

"There is a growing issue of marijuana cultivation on public lands in the U.S., especially in California and Oregon, and it appears they have discovered southwestern Idaho," said BLM special agent in charge Loren Good.
http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2009/07/30/30greenwire-cartels-turn-us-forests-into-marijuana-plantat-41908.html

[tavalon]

66. You'll be sorely disappointed because this is such an inflammatory

straw man "argument", that we are just going to make fun of it until someone has pity on this poor soul and alerts. Then it will be locked.

[arcane1]

15. It would help to know the drug(s) in question n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

25. You know, the bad ones. The evil ones. The ones the hippies do.

Now, if you don't mind, I need to go get my booze and smokes.

[tavalon]

70. No, actually it wouldn't

Because this is an inflammatory strawman attack showing obvious bias without the requisite knowledge of the intricacies of the drug war.

[MadBadger]

17. No, I blame you

[tavalon]

73. I assume

that would be because you feel that the OP should have some grasp on appropriate debate techniques? But then, you know what they say about the word assume......

[Warpy]

18. No, I blame Anslinger and all the other architects

of the unconstitutional war on drugs that has been used to chip away at civil liberties here while exporting violence elsewhere.

It's not working, buster. The drugs won a long time ago. It's time to abandon the war, reinstitute civil liberties, and stop pouring billions down the interdiction and paramilitary ratholes.

You can't make sin illegal. It just makes it a whole lot more popular.

[pipoman]

19. Hmmm, Is that news source your homepage? n/t

[JonLP24]

21. This is what happens when you drive the business underground

but more to the point, they are taking advantage of a market that has always existed and will always exist. Because addiction is very powerful. People will continue to use even when they have negative consequences that can be directly linked to use, but yet they continue. Takes much more than simple willpower and relapse is common in recovery. A lot of that is dependant on genetics and environment as well. It is hard to understand for folks who can drink a glass of wine after work or something and be fine, contrasted to those who finish the whole bottle. If that makes sense.

[ZombieHorde]

22. No, I don't buy drugs from Mexico. nt

[2gabby]

23. And now a joke for all you psychics out there...

Nt

[Ghost in the Machine]

31. Meh..

It was funnier the first 3 times I heard it, now it's just boring, kinda like Justin Beiber

:hi:

Welcome to DU, 2gabby

[timtom]

103. I knew you'd say that.

(Now,remove my blindfold, please.)

[2gabby]

108. welcomed with a Beiber, i dont know

:rofl: and now I know how to spell his name

[sharesunited]

34. Gun and ammo manufacturers. Period, end of report.

[Rex]

42. No no! This is not about guns or ammo...they did not cause the deaths

illegal drugs did!!! :eyes:

[Rex]

40. Nice flamebait title. So how do YOU feel about it, you illegal drug user?

Don't just ask people, you tell us what you think since you obviously do some kind of illegal drug. I'm sure many people have pointed out by now that they don't use drug that come from Mexico or even live in a place that would get drugs from Mexico. What a stupid post, knee jerking all over DU like that. Sick. Anyway...I don't take illegal drugs, but thought it funny how the OP wants to start a fight instantly with non-violent drug offenders. Pretty pathetic and obvious.

:popcorn:

[tavalon]

74. I think the OP is actually a platypus

and that being the case, is unlikely to have access to illegal drugs, not that that means anything.

[True Earthling]

123. I don't use illegal drugs. I don't like to do any drugs... period.

I did every sort of drug when I was young - I'm 60 yrs old now. I smoked pot/hash, took LSD, mescaline, was addicted to cocaine (injected) & sopers/quaaludes, addicted to amphetamines... was one of the first to take MDA/Ecstasy back in 71. I don't like to take drugs if I can avoid it but I take Celebrex for an arthritic knee (2 operations) and take supplements and vitamins to stay as healthy as I can. I still drink alcohol occasionally and I tell myself it's good for me because of the beneficial effects on the heart although I know it's probably killing brain cells.

The legalization of drugs is an interesting question to me. Drugs have a very powerful effect on the body/brain and I believe most users are ignorant of the health effects. I believe we should focus efforts on health education to combat drug addiction. Unfortunately we live in an extremely stressful society and drugs are a way to deal with it.

I do believe pot should be legalized. The quality and distribution would then be regulated and controlled. I believe that would also reduce the availability of other more addictive/unhealthy drugs i.e. crack.

Everything we do, every breath we take has a ripple effect on the universe. We cannot ignore the fact that when we light up a joint from Mexico that some cartel may have murdered dozens of innocent civilians to get it into your hands. I'm not saying a pot smoker is directly responsible but there is a connection. I don't want to impose my beliefs on others and I have no Idea how I would feel. I could blame the law but I know that my actions are my choice and that the law didn't force me to do anything.

[EOTE]

126. Murderer!! How can you live with yourself knowing all the deaths you're responsible for?

And why the hell are you still doing drugs if you don't like to do them? Methinks you're an uber-hypocrite. And by the way, neither myself nor any of my friends smoke anything from Mexico.

[Rex]

143. Thanks for the reply, but that OP is still flamebait.

How exactly do pot users know they are lighting up a joint from Mexico is my point. For the record, I don't believe we should legalize drugs like cocaine, meth, acid all the hardcore drugs, heroine...all should stay illegal imo. Pot, well it is the most politicized drug in the world, we should have a real debate on ALL drugs taken before we legalize anything.

And if you want to play the 'butterfly effect' game, I can say that leaving your house may cause someone to die thousands of miles away...that bird you scared off, had major repercussions in China...so don't go outside, don't breath. Just exist, don't live. So how do you feel now that you now you did drugs for so many years, that must have a pretty large bodycount attached to it. Do you feel remorse or guilty for you past actions?

The universe doesn't even care if we exist, why try and humanize it. We laugh, we love, we die.

I understand what you mean and thanks again for clarifying your OP. :hi:

[Berserker]

41. My Daughter

is in prison right now. She is a meth addict. I struggle every day with his drug problem. She left behind a beautiful seven-year-old daughter. For those who think that all drugs should be legal I would caution them. My family has been torn apart because of this drug. If it were legal I fear what would happen to people.

[HEyHEY]

47. Sorry to hear that.

My best friend's family had the same experience. Great parents, well-off, owned a successful family business the boys were more than welcome to participate in. My best friend went that route and now has a wife, a son, owns a home and does well for himself.

His brother became a coke addict, went to prison, all that. His parents even spent $70,000 on rehab programs to no avail. What can you do? They have to hit rock bottom themselves and hopefully then they can build themselves up.

I hope your daughter manages to do this.

[EFerrari]

48. Making meth illegal hasn't seemed to stop our kids from using it.

I commiserate with you. I have one out there, too.

[tavalon]

77. But it has taught them how to make it, even though they often blow

up people while doing it.

[Ilsa]

71. I understand. My sister-in-law did time because

She used drugs and alcohol and assaulted a cop while drunk, but drugs were a big problem, too. She got out completely rehabilitated. We had her with us for another four years and then she died from a brain aneurysm. She got to see a sonogram of her grandson (likely only grandchild), but didn't survive to see him born.

I'm not sure legalization is the answer either. I think we need people to understand that there are better alternatives in life than getting high.

I hope your family can get through this and find contentment, peace. I wish the best for your daughter and her child.

[tavalon]

75. Perhaps I'm naive and I do feel for you

But I think that education and medical assistance rather than punitive incarceration is a better solution. But the War On Drugs and the privatization of Prisons makes the possibility of legalizing any drugs pretty much nil.

[HEyHEY]

46. I find the shirking off of responsibility in this thread funny

Yes, some drugs should be legal and that would cut down on crime. Yes, they shot each other with guns and bullets (sometimes both!) However, none of this would be an issue were people not buying the drugs to begin with.

It's just as guilt ridden as people in SUVs.

[ZombieHorde]

52. Most drug users aren't buying drugs from Mexico.

The most common drug is pot, and most pot is domestic.

[True Earthling]

137. Cocaine is not domestic... most cocaine comes through Mexico...

and a lot of the pot grown in California is grown by the Mexican cartels...

Mexican Drug Cartels Set Up Shop in California Parks
By TIM MCGIRK / SANTA CRUZ Saturday, Aug. 22, 2009


Firefighters battle the La Brea fire that has been burning for eight days and destroyed over 84,000 acres. The fire was reportedly caused by an illegal camp fire at a marijuana farm.

The damage they do to society is well-known, but drug traffickers, it turns out, also aren't the most environmentally-minded campers. Law enforcement officials say that a wildfire now raging in Santa Barbara's Los Padres National park, burning more than 136 square miles, was sparked by a cooking fire started by the hirelings of a Mexican drug cartel which was growing thousands of marijuana plants in the remote canyons.

Far from an isolated incident, the Los Padres fire, according to law enforcement agents, highlights an alarming trend: the invasion of California wilderness and parklands by armed Mexican drug cartels. Firefighters discovered more than 30,000 pot plants growing near the Santa Barbara blaze. Pushed north by a Mexican army crack-down, tougher border controls, and violent gang wars back home that have led to hundreds of killings, these cartels view California's 31 million acres of wilderness as a green El Dorado for marijuana cultivation. Not only is it closer to millions of eager American pot-smokers, but this vast expanse of land is simply too big for the state's sheriffs and forest rangers to monitor.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1917547,00.html

[Fumesucker]

60. Just like none of this would be happening were the drugs not made illegal to begin with..

You act as though illegality of certain drugs is some sort of immutable physical law, it's not, there is no valid societal reason for certain recreational substances being illegal while other recreational substances that are just as bad or in some cases far worse are perfectly legal.

The OP question might make some modicum of sense were *all* recreational drugs illegal, they are not and everyone knows they never will be. There is no rhyme or reason to the illegality, pure happenstance and whim on the part of the politicians.

Edited to change phrasing..

[tavalon]

78. It's not the drug users causing this, it's the DEA

and their fake War On Drugs.

[HEyHEY]

97. Isn't that like saying it's OPEC not people driving cars causing pollution?

[tavalon]

100. I'm not a car fan

That said, cars are doing very little of the damage to the environment and yeah, OPEC is a bit more responsible. So are all the coal plants that don't upgrade, the refineries that spew crap and almost all of the huge corporations with lots of money and no moral compass. That, and those damn platypi. They poop like nobodies business. So do cows, come to think of it.

If it seems like I'm making no sense, it's only because this is a nonsensical flamebait thread.

[eShirl]

49. Those who perpetuate the War on Drugs might ask themselves that question.

[Vinnie From Indy]

55. No, I blame you

And, I blame Canada just because!

[AndyTiedye]

57. Buy American

[Make7]

58. I make sure to only use the illegal drugs imported by the CIA.

That way I at least know the people being killed are bad people (or at least probably not United States citizens). And it also helps lower the amount of taxes other people need to pay for covert and overt military operations (which only sometimes results in collateral damage).
um, sarcasm

[BoWanZi]

59. Seriously? That really is a stretch for "illegal drug users"

[tavalon]

82. Welcome to the failure of our education system

People don't know how to debate, nor how to hide their bias, nor even what a strawman is. Most know what a platypus is, but then, that's about as relevant as this too amusing thread.

[tavalon]

61. IBTL

Since we're playing both sides of the drug war, it's more appropriate to ask that of our government and to ask them to legalize all drugs. They won't do it because it's way too profitable to all concerned, including America.

Epic Fail, dude.

[Very_Boring_Name]

81. Right. Because we all know the government hates profit

:eyes:

[tavalon]

84. I really, really don't have a clue what you just tried to say

But damn, I have got to learn how to embed pictures. I have over 10,000 posts and still I don't know how to embed, say, a bunny with a pancake on it's head. This is very sad. Sadder in this moment than I can convey with just words.

[Very_Boring_Name]

85. "The government wont legalize drugs because it's way too profitable"

Yup, we all know that's what goes through their heads. "Should we legalize drugs? Nah, it's way too profitable and we hate profit."

[tavalon]

87. You might want to check with the military and the CIA and the DEA

to find out whether they want their endless funding for this War On Drugs to dry up. They don't. That's why they play both sides. It makes sure that they continue to get their bottomless pit funding.

[callous taoboy]

72. The stench of your hypocrisy is too much this early in the a.m. Bye.

[Rebubula]

76. LOLZ

I have a feeling that you will have a short stay here...


And no, I do not feel bad about that other than standard human suffering pity.


Oh...and fuck yourself and your holier than thou flamebait.

[GliderGuider]

80. Nope, The DEA is the responsible party in that one. n/t

[The Straight Story]

86. People blame gun culture on shootings (and not the shooters)

Might as well blame someone else for drug violence than the people actually causing it - easier to blame guns/drugs/etc than people.

[Ganja Ninja]

88. No I blame the anti drug laws that make a black market profitable and

promote dangerous drugs like cocaine and meth.

[ReggieVeggie]

93. yes

the profit motive creates the conditions that led to this incident

[tavalon]

89. Maybe you really did want some dialogue on this but

you went about it the wrong way and while I've had some fun at your expense, I think it's time to end it.

[tavalon]

90. PS

Fox will rot your brain.

[ReggieVeggie]

92. no

Our government and their irrational anti-drug policies make these sorts of things happen.

[TBF]

96. Until drugs are legalized we will see this type of behavior -

the lure of the money is too great. Legalizing is part of the conversation, the other part is the class implications. When we have so many who are living at the poverty line the lure of that money is going to be there. Work at Walmart for peanuts, or take your chances and go for the money? If I were in that situation I wonder what I'd do.

[DainBramaged]

98. DO you in any way feel responsible for this?

[GliderGuider]

99. Caution: Complicated Critical Thinking ahead:

From a fundamental philosophical perspective, we are all independent, self-determining, self-responsible moral agents. This applies as much to gang shooters as it does to me. They have no way of making me commit illegal/immoral acts if I choose not to, and the reverse is equally true. I'm not responsible for their decisions.

The legal environment regarding drug use within the USA and Mexico has created what is essentially an ecological niche, and these thugs have moved in to occupy it. Take away that niche and their opportunity to fill it is instantly removed. Morally, their decisions have nothing at all to do with any decision I make about what to consume.

The key word in your post is not "drugs", it is the word "illegal".

[tavalon]

101. So I'm left with one of two conclusions

Either the Canadian school system is far superior to the American one (likely, because these days we just drill for tests, no time for teaching) or, you've had a college level course in debate.

Either way, you lost him after the colon. I promise.

[tavalon]

102. Woah,

I just bookmarked your homepage for later reading and I think it's gonna be some good reading!

[GliderGuider]

135. Thanks! The stuff can be a little challenging around the edges, but I think it's interesting. n/t

[hobbit709]

104. So if you live in a state with legal medical marijuana you are still responsible?

[Tsiyu]

105. "First, Remove the Beam from Thine Own Eye"

Yeah, I went all King James


But it is, in fact, a hypocritical argument the OP makes.





True earthling, If you want to open the many cans of worms relating to human suffering around the globe caused by Americans' love of oil, diamonds, wood, coal, clothes, cars, computers... I have two suggestions.




1) Get a sturdy can opener.



2) Start with your own cans.



Unrec :thumbsdown:

[tavalon]

107. Alright!

You went all King James on his ass!

So, how do you feel about the platypus or the Slow Loris, if you prefer?

[Motown_Johnny]

129. hypothetical?

Real money is being spent to buy real drugs and some of that money goes to buy real guns to kill real people.

None of this is hypothetical.


Equating other atrocities committed around the world with the atrocities committed in the illegal drug trade is reasonable. Pretending all of this is hypothetical is insane.

[Tsiyu]

131. Huh? n/t

:shrug:

[RainDog]

106. I think you're responsible for this for continuing to support a war on drugs

when there is ample evidence to prove such action is the cause of rather than the solution to such violence.

c.f. prohibition of alcohol.

those who led the campaign for the prohibition of alcohol operated with the same self-righteous frame of mind as this op. they killed so many people because of their attempt at social control that was never going to succeed.

how do you sleep at night knowing your attitude causes the slaughter of innocents?

[Le Taz Hot]

109. Well, in that I live in a state that legalized MM,

I have a MM license and I grow my own, legally, as do most of the pot smokers I kno, I'm not sure how I'm connected to the cartels in any way. Besides, no true connoisseur would be caught dead smoking that bilge that comes from Mexico. :smoke:

[City of Mills]

113. Nah, too busy feeling guilty over my responsibility for the gulf oil spill

And tolerating nuclear power plants in my state.

[tavalon]

115. Okay, no one seems interested in cutting off your flamebait, so a bit of advice

There is much to learn here and many people here know more than you and I could ever hope to amass. Hang around and listen. You can learn a lot. Started a flamebait isn't one of the ways to elicit that knowledge more just amused derision. In other words, we weren't laughing with you. If you want to take this to a NA meeting you might actually get some people who don't realize it's a strawman flamebait born out of some degree of ignorance and a lot of black and white thinking.

[JNelson6563]

116. Legalize pot!

Here in Michigan, medial marijuana is legal so most who smoke pot are getting it from folks who grow it right here. I do appreciate your self-righteousness though!

Julie

[TheKentuckian]

120. Not even a smidgen. Shut down your nanny state and anti-civil liberties drug war and peace will

increase.

Your cause is right there in your blurb, Calderon launched a military led crackdown and this is the harvest that has been reaped.

Why are you on here preaching when it is the insanity that authoritarians have seeded and corporations profit from that has created this mess.
You want your for profit prisons stacked to the brim with created criminals that have committed not a single trespass against another to extract resources from the commons and to generate slave like labor.

Of course now that the police state actions are having spill over folks like you are lamely trying to play the guilt card rather than for one moment realizing that your puritanical pogroms are the root of the violence and the source of the cartel's wealth and influence.

You don't want to control the violence but rather the behavior of others.

[roody]

121. No. All drug use should be decriminalized.

[woofless]

141. What roody said.

[bemildred]

122. Are you some sort of paid tool?

Here is where the responsibility lies:

Nearly 35,000 people have been killed in Mexico's drug-related violence since the end of 2006 when President Felipe Calderon launched a military-led crackdown on the country's powerful drug cartels.

[ensho]

125. no, I blame our govt. for being so stupid about maryjane and industrial hemp

nt

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

127. Yes. My bad. Sorry 'bout that.

Or just maybe, if it was made legal, the lowered profit margins would make the gang activity less attractive.

I'll have to roll another one and think about all this.

:hi:

[Zephie]

130. And if you know the source of your cannabis , are you at fault as well?

I know where mine comes from and it's certainly not paying for that. Accusing every user of currently outlawed drugs for being at fault for that horrible tragedy is insane.

[opihimoimoi]

132. The Guilt lies w Harry Anslinger and his efforts to stifle MJ w "Reefer madness"

We had his photo up for the dart board

[SOS]

133. February 14, 1929

Al Capone's gang lined up members of the North Side gang in their garage and shot them.
The North Side gang was awaiting a shipment of illegal alcohol at the time.

Was this massacre the result of American citizens continuing to drink alcoholic beverages
during Prohibition or was it the result of an idiotic, failed law?

Solution:
Decriminalize cannabis which accounts for 90% of illegal use.
Harm reduction/medicalisation for other drugs as in Switzerland.

Of course sensible policies, which have worked in Europe, are something the US is not interested in.

[LAGC]

148. But... but... cannabis is a gateway drug.

And will lead to all sorts of drug abuse if legalized!

:sarcasm:

[tavalon]

150. Acid was my gateway drug

And pot, well, I just never liked it. It's funny, I don't take illegal drugs and yet I believe all drugs should be legal.

Of course, I also believe the OP is a platypus and that this thread should have been locked, so what the fuck do I know?

[McCamy Taylor]

139. Law makers are responsible, not the users.

[Shagbark Hickory]

140. Speaking of civilians getting massacred.

[phleshdef]

144. Do you ever shop at Walmart, Target, Best Buy or any other retailer that sells products...

...made by slave labor and sweatshops? Do you feel in any way responsible for slave labor and sweat shops?

[Hippo_Tron]

146. No individual drug user has enough market power to defund the drug trade

So while I don't use drugs, if I did use drugs, I wouldn't feel the least bit responsible because this would happen whether or not I used drugs or not.

[killbotfactory]

147. Do prohibitionists feel responsible for this?

There is a large demand for intoxicating drugs, and by banning their sale under any circumstances, prohibitionists force these items into the black market where disputes are impossible to settle legally and peacefully.

[LanternWaste]

149. Nope. But as an American tax payer, I do feel responsible for this...

Nope. But as an American tax payer, I do feel responsible for this...