Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

A few thoughts on Libya and Humanitarian law

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:00 AM
Original message
A few thoughts on Libya and Humanitarian law
First off for some odd reason I have been mostly following that OTHER emergency where they are expecting 18K dead... so I have been quite cursory on my following of this mess.

So suffice it to say a few things.

The other day the Government Forces were close to entering Benghazi and the ICRC pulled out of the city.Having done work with a national society that at times included refugee relocation with the UNHCR and yes, the ICRC... I know the latter will NOT pull out of the threat to their personnel is not imminent. It is simply not in their way of doing business. Now I understand the hesitation of yet another war... I mean MISSION CREEP is in the back of my mind too. But... the ICRC does not just pull out.

There was a real threat for them to go, we are out of here and on our way to Tobruk so we can come back and go to work.

The other the rebels requested this close to a month ago... and the US has been very late to the party...

Now I admit, the US Media will make it sound (to my surprise not as much as usual) as if this is a US operation and only a US Operation... it is not. The first flight was led by Rafaele French Fighters... BEFORE air defenses were degraded, which goes against MODERN doctrine.

Now I will also admit, Italy and france have a history, as well as England... WW II for example, somebody dusted their maps.

But FOR THE MOMENT it seems to be what it is.

And if this is the case... we just saw an evolution on yes... the GENOCIDE Convention... as in it suddenly got teeth...

But time will tell... if this is the whole thing. And if it is... it is a huge evolution of the species actually... what do you mean no more genocide will be tolerated?

Now to constitutional issues... we have two things here. One is an 18 century document that says you cannot do this without a declaration of war... never mind Jefferson engaged the Barbary Pirates without such a declaration... and then we have the same document telling us that yes... treaties we sign are law. We did sign into the UN... so if this has become now the enforcement of Article 7...

This is when it enters into modern complexities.

But reality is, time will tell as to what the true motives are... and it may very well be mostly (no, not just only) humanitarian. Or it may be something else.

As long as no mission creep develops... that is my concern as this point though. Mostly what army?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for some news without the spin. We'll see what happens.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. If You Do Not Mind, Ma'am
The text of the Resolution, and of Chapter 7 of the Charter, mught be of use here....

The full text of resolution 1973 (2011) reads as follows:

“The Security Council,

“Recalling its resolution 1970 (2011) of 26 February 2011,

“Deploring the failure of the Libyan authorities to comply with resolution 1970 (2011),

“Expressing grave concern at the deteriorating situation, the escalation of violence, and the heavy civilian casualties,

“Reiterating the responsibility of the Libyan authorities to protect the Libyan population and reaffirming that parties to armed conflicts bear the primary responsibility to take all feasible steps to ensure the protection of civilians,

“Condemning the gross and systematic violation of human rights, including arbitrary detentions, enforced disappearances, torture and summary executions,

“Further condemning acts of violence and intimidation committed by the Libyan authorities against journalists, media professionals and associated personnel and urging these authorities to comply with their obligations under international humanitarian law as outlined in resolution 1738 (2006),

“Considering that the widespread and systematic attacks currently taking place in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya against the civilian population may amount to crimes against humanity,

“Recalling paragraph 26 of resolution 1970 (2011) in which the Council expressed its readiness to consider taking additional appropriate measures, as necessary, to facilitate and support the return of humanitarian agencies and make available humanitarian and related assistance in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Expressing its determination to ensure the protection of civilians and civilian populated areas and the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian assistance and the safety of humanitarian personnel,

“Recalling the condemnation by the League of Arab States, the African Union and the Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference of the serious violations of human rights and international humanitarian law that have been and are being committed in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Taking note of the final communiqué of the Organization of the Islamic Conference of 8 March 2011, and the communiqué of the Peace and Security Council of the African Union of 10 March 2011 which established an ad hoc High-Level Committee on Libya,

“Taking note also of the decision of the Council of the League of Arab States of 12 March 2011 to call for the imposition of a no-fly zone on Libyan military aviation, and to establish safe areas in places exposed to shelling as a precautionary measure that allows the protection of the Libyan people and foreign nationals residing in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Taking note further of the Secretary-General’s call on 16 March 2011 for an immediate ceasefire,

“Recalling its decision to refer the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya since 15 February 2011 to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, and stressing that those responsible for or complicit in attacks targeting the civilian population, including aerial and naval attacks, must be held to account,

“Reiterating its concern at the plight of refugees and foreign workers forced to flee the violence in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, welcoming the response of neighbouring States, in particular Tunisia and Egypt, to address the needs of those refugees and foreign workers, and calling on the international community to support those efforts,

“Deploring the continuing use of mercenaries by the Libyan authorities,

“Considering that the establishment of a ban on all flights in the airspace of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya constitutes an important element for the protection of civilians as well as the safety of the delivery of humanitarian assistance and a decisive step for the cessation of hostilities in Libya,

“Expressing concern also for the safety of foreign nationals and their rights in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Welcoming the appointment by the Secretary General of his Special Envoy to Libya, Mr. Abdul Ilah Mohamed Al-Khatib and supporting his efforts to find a sustainable and peaceful solution to the crisis in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Reaffirming its strong commitment to the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and national unity of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Determining that the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya continues to constitute a threat to international peace and security,

“Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

“1. Demands the immediate establishment of a ceasefire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians;

“2. Stresses the need to intensify efforts to find a solution to the crisis which responds to the legitimate demands of the Libyan people and notes the decisions of the Secretary-General to send his Special Envoy to Libya and of the Peace and Security Council of the African Union to send its ad hoc High-Level Committee to Libya with the aim of facilitating dialogue to lead to the political reforms necessary to find a peaceful and sustainable solution;

“3. Demands that the Libyan authorities comply with their obligations under international law, including international humanitarian law, human rights and refugee law and take all measures to protect civilians and meet their basic needs, and to ensure the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian assistance;

“Protection of civilians

“4. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, and acting in cooperation with the Secretary-General, to take all necessary measures, notwithstanding paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011), to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory, and requests the Member States concerned to inform the Secretary-General immediately of the measures they take pursuant to the authorization conferred by this paragraph which shall be immediately reported to the Security Council;

“5. Recognizes the important role of the League of Arab States in matters relating to the maintenance of international peace and security in the region, and bearing in mind Chapter VIII of the Charter of the United Nations, requests the Member States of the League of Arab States to cooperate with other Member States in the implementation of paragraph 4;

“No-fly zone

“6. Decides to establish a ban on all flights in the airspace of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya in order to help protect civilians;

“7. Decides further that the ban imposed by paragraph 6 shall not apply to flights whose sole purpose is humanitarian, such as delivering or facilitating the delivery of assistance, including medical supplies, food, humanitarian workers and related assistance, or evacuating foreign nationals from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, nor shall it apply to flights authorised by paragraphs 4 or 8, nor other flights which are deemed necessary by States acting under the authorization conferred in paragraph 8 to be for the benefit of the Libyan people, and that these flights shall be coordinated with any mechanism established under paragraph 8;

“8. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to enforce compliance with the ban on flights imposed by paragraph 6 above, as necessary, and requests the States concerned in cooperation with the League of Arab States to coordinate closely with the Secretary General on the measures they are taking to implement this ban, including by establishing an appropriate mechanism for implementing the provisions of paragraphs 6 and 7 above,

“9. Calls upon all Member States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to provide assistance, including any necessary overflight approvals, for the purposes of implementing paragraphs 4, 6, 7 and 8 above;

“10. Requests the Member States concerned to coordinate closely with each other and the Secretary-General on the measures they are taking to implement paragraphs 4, 6, 7 and 8 above, including practical measures for the monitoring and approval of authorised humanitarian or evacuation flights;

“11. Decides that the Member States concerned shall inform the Secretary-General and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States immediately of measures taken in exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 8 above, including to supply a concept of operations;

“12. Requests the Secretary-General to inform the Council immediately of any actions taken by the Member States concerned in exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 8 above and to report to the Council within 7 days and every month thereafter on the implementation of this resolution, including information on any violations of the flight ban imposed by paragraph 6 above;

“Enforcement of the arms embargo

“13. Decides that paragraph 11 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall be replaced by the following paragraph : “Calls upon all Member States, in particular States of the region, acting nationally or through regional organisations or arrangements, in order to ensure strict implementation of the arms embargo established by paragraphs 9 and 10 of resolution 1970 (2011), to inspect in their territory, including seaports and airports, and on the high seas, vessels and aircraft bound to or from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, if the State concerned has information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that the cargo contains items the supply, sale, transfer or export of which is prohibited by paragraphs 9 or 10 of resolution 1970 (2011) as modified by this resolution, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel, calls upon all flag States of such vessels and aircraft to cooperate with such inspections and authorises Member States to use all measures commensurate to the specific circumstances to carry out such inspections”;

“14. Requests Member States which are taking action under paragraph 13 above on the high seas to coordinate closely with each other and the Secretary-General and further requests the States concerned to inform the Secretary-General and the Committee established pursuant to paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011) (“the Committee”) immediately of measures taken in the exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 13 above;

“15. Requires any Member State whether acting nationally or through regional organisations or arrangements, when it undertakes an inspection pursuant to paragraph 13 above, to submit promptly an initial written report to the Committee containing, in particular, explanation of the grounds for the inspection, the results of such inspection, and whether or not cooperation was provided, and, if prohibited items for transfer are found, further requires such Member States to submit to the Committee, at a later stage, a subsequent written report containing relevant details on the inspection, seizure, and disposal, and relevant details of the transfer, including a description of the items, their origin and intended destination, if this information is not in the initial report;

“16. Deplores the continuing flows of mercenaries into the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and calls upon all Member States to comply strictly with their obligations under paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011) to prevent the provision of armed mercenary personnel to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya;

“Ban on flights

“17. Decides that all States shall deny permission to any aircraft registered in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya or owned or operated by Libyan nationals or companies to take off from, land in or overfly their territory unless the particular flight has been approved in advance by the Committee, or in the case of an emergency landing;

“18. Decides that all States shall deny permission to any aircraft to take off from, land in or overfly their territory, if they have information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that the aircraft contains items the supply, sale, transfer, or export of which is prohibited by paragraphs 9 and 10 of resolution 1970 (2011) as modified by this resolution, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel, except in the case of an emergency landing;

“Asset freeze

“19. Decides that the asset freeze imposed by paragraph 17, 19, 20 and 21 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall apply to all funds, other financial assets and economic resources which are on their territories, which are owned or controlled, directly or indirectly, by the Libyan authorities, as designated by the Committee, or by individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, or by entities owned or controlled by them, as designated by the Committee, and decides further that all States shall ensure that any funds, financial assets or economic resources are prevented from being made available by their nationals or by any individuals or entities within their territories, to or for the benefit of the Libyan authorities, as designated by the Committee, or individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, or entities owned or controlled by them, as designated by the Committee, and directs the Committee to designate such Libyan authorities, individuals or entities within 30 days of the date of the adoption of this resolution and as appropriate thereafter;

“20. Affirms its determination to ensure that assets frozen pursuant to paragraph 17 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall, at a later stage, as soon as possible be made available to and for the benefit of the people of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya;

“21. Decides that all States shall require their nationals, persons subject to their jurisdiction and firms incorporated in their territory or subject to their jurisdiction to exercise vigilance when doing business with entities incorporated in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya or subject to its jurisdiction, and any individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, and entities owned or controlled by them, if the States have information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that such business could contribute to violence and use of force against civilians;

“Designations

“22. Decides that the individuals listed in Annex I shall be subject to the travel restrictions imposed in paragraphs 15 and 16 of resolution 1970 (2011), and decides further that the individuals and entities listed in Annex II shall be subject to the asset freeze imposed in paragraphs 17, 19, 20 and 21 of resolution 1970 (2011);

“23. Decides that the measures specified in paragraphs 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 and 21 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall apply also to individuals and entities determined by the Council or the Committee to have violated the provisions of resolution 1970 (2011), particularly paragraphs 9 and 10 thereof, or to have assisted others in doing so;

“Panel of Experts

“24. Requests the Secretary-General to create for an initial period of one year, in consultation with the Committee, a group of up to eight experts (“Panel of Experts”), under the direction of the Committee to carry out the following tasks:

(a) Assist the Committee in carrying out its mandate as specified in paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011) and this resolution;

(b) Gather, examine and analyse information from States, relevant United Nations bodies, regional organisations and other interested parties regarding the implementation of the measures decided in resolution 1970 (2011) and this resolution, in particular incidents of non-compliance;

(c) Make recommendations on actions the Council, or the Committee or State, may consider to improve implementation of the relevant measures;

(d) Provide to the Council an interim report on its work no later than 90 days after the Panel’s appointment, and a final report to the Council no later than 30 days prior to the termination of its mandate with its findings and recommendations;

“25. Urges all States, relevant United Nations bodies and other interested parties, to cooperate fully with the Committee and the Panel of Experts, in particular by supplying any information at their disposal on the implementation of the measures decided in resolution 1970 (2011) and this resolution, in particular incidents of non-compliance;

“26. Decides that the mandate of the Committee as set out in paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall also apply to the measures decided in this resolution;

“27. Decides that all States, including the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, shall take the necessary measures to ensure that no claim shall lie at the instance of the Libyan authorities, or of any person or body in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, or of any person claiming through or for the benefit of any such person or body, in connection with any contract or other transaction where its performance was affected by reason of the measures taken by the Security Council in resolution 1970 (2011), this resolution and related resolutions;

“28. Reaffirms its intention to keep the actions of the Libyan authorities under continuous review and underlines its readiness to review at any time the measures imposed by this resolution and resolution 1970 (2011), including by strengthening, suspending or lifting those measures, as appropriate, based on compliance by the Libyan authorities with this resolution and resolution 1970 (2011);

“29. Decides to remain actively seized of the matter.”


CHAPTER VII: ACTION WITH RESPECT TO THREATS TO THE PEACE, BREACHES OF THE PEACE, AND ACTS OF AGGRESSION

Article 39

The Security Council shall determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 41 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security.

Article 40

In order to prevent an aggravation of the situation, the Security Council may, before making the recommendations or deciding upon the measures provided for in Article 39, call upon the parties concerned to comply with such provisional measures as it deems necessary or desirable. Such provisional measures shall be without prejudice to the rights, claims, or position of the parties concerned. The Security Council shall duly take account of failure to comply with such provisional measures.

Article 41

The Security Council may decide what measures not involving the use of armed force are to be employed to give effect to its decisions, and it may call upon the Members of the United Nations to apply such measures. These may include complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations.

Article 42

Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.

Article 43

All Members of the United Nations, in order to contribute to the maintenance of international peace and security, undertake to make available to the Security Council, on its call and in accordance with a special agreement or agreements, armed forces, assistance, and facilities, including rights of passage, necessary for the purpose of maintaining international peace and security.
Such agreement or agreements shall govern the numbers and types of forces, their degree of readiness and general location, and the nature of the facilities and assistance to be provided.
The agreement or agreements shall be negotiated as soon as possible on the initiative of the Security Council. They shall be concluded between the Security Council and Members or between the Security Council and groups of Members and shall be subject to ratification by the signatory states in accordance with their respective constitutional processes.
Article 44

When the Security Council has decided to use force it shall, before calling upon a Member not represented on it to provide armed forces in fulfilment of the obligations assumed under Article 43, invite that Member, if the Member so desires, to participate in the decisions of the Security Council concerning the employment of contingents of that Member's armed forces.

Article 45

In order to enable the United Nations to take urgent military measures, Members shall hold immediately available national air-force contingents for combined international enforcement action. The strength and degree of readiness of these contingents and plans for their combined action shall be determined within the limits laid down in the special agreement or agreements referred to in Article 43, by the Security Council with the assistance of the Military Staff Committee.

Article 46

Plans for the application of armed force shall be made by the Security Council with the assistance of the Military Staff Committee.

Article 47

There shall be established a Military Staff Committee to advise and assist the Security Council on all questions relating to the Security Council's military requirements for the maintenance of international peace and security, the employment and command of forces placed at its disposal, the regulation of armaments, and possible disarmament.
The Military Staff Committee shall consist of the Chiefs of Staff of the permanent members of the Security Council or their representatives. Any Member of the United Nations not permanently represented on the Committee shall be invited by the Committee to be associated with it when the efficient discharge of the Committee's responsibilities requires the participation of that Member in its work.
The Military Staff Committee shall be responsible under the Security Council for the strategic direction of any armed forces placed at the disposal of the Security Council. Questions relating to the command of such forces shall be worked out subsequently.
The Military Staff Committee, with the authorization of the Security Council and after consultation with appropriate regional agencies, may establish regional sub-committees.
Article 48

The action required to carry out the decisions of the Security Council for the maintenance of international peace and security shall be taken by all the Members of the United Nations or by some of them, as the Security Council may determine.
Such decisions shall be carried out by the Members of the United Nations directly and through their action in the appropriate international agencies of which they are members.
Article 49

The Members of the United Nations shall join in affording mutual assistance in carrying out the measures decided upon by the Security Council.

Article 50

If preventive or enforcement measures against any state are taken by the Security Council, any other state, whether a Member of the United Nations or not, which finds itself confronted with special economic problems arising from the carrying out of those measures shall have the right to consult the Security Council with regard to a solution of those problems.

Article 51

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thanks... I just have a more nuanced view I guess
to me the true red flag was the ICRC going SEE YA! They just don't do that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Indeed, Ma'am, If The Red Cross Pulls Out, Things Are Looking Very Bad
What seems of importance to me in this that the resolution seems based in part on recognizing a duty to prevent impending breeches of humanitarian law, and that strikes me as a good precedent to establish and solidify.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I think they are FINALLY putting teeth on the
Genocide Convention.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soryang Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. has the sound and feel of the Iraq war resolution
in other words, it's nonsense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Inernational law is nonesense to most people
but this one actually does not authorize a ground invasion by any foreign forces, for example. That is a key difference.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueMTexpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. Which "Iraq War Resolution" do you mean?
Edited on Mon Mar-21-11 03:08 AM by BlueMTexpat
This one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1441 This one actually facilitated the return of weapons control inspectors to Iraq. Of course, it merely served as a delaying tactic for BushCo who had no intention of believing anything the weapons inspectors had to say unless, of coure, it confirmed their false intelligence.

Or this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

The text of the latter can be found here: http://uspolitics.about.com/od/wariniraq/a/jt_resolution.htm It was literally a go-it-alone war authorization for the aforesaid BushCo.

The situations have some similarities, but also major differences. Attempting to blur the lines is disingenuous at best. One of the most striking differences is that Saddam was not actively engaged in massive air and land attacks against his own people - and with the assistance of foreign mercenaries (Gaddafi's been recruiting from Chad, for example) - in 2002-2003, as is the case with Gaddafi today. We've seen Gaddafi consistently vowing to continue the offensive until the last man standing. You had better believe that he means every word. Saddam's genocidal offenses had generally occurred with our assistance in furnishing him with the weapons - perhaps even with our tacit approval (in the context of the Iran-Iraq War) or after our instigation (Bush I's abandonment of the post Gulf War I Iraqi uprising we had encouraged springs to mind). Another striking difference is that the Libyan resolution is not riddled with or inspired by manufactured false intelligence. That is a HUGE difference.

When people inside the country themselves have been desperately requesting the imposition of a no-fly zone for several weeks and NGOs like the ICRC pull out, a massacre of all in the area - including civilians - is clearly on the books and imminent.

Not all situations are the same. Yes, I find these events troubling generally. But I have also seen the cheering of the people in Libya when news of the no-fly zone was received.

For those who blithely compare this situation to that in Egypt, please remember that the Egyptian army, thank all The Powers That Be, did not rise up against the Egyptian people. Only Mubarak's thugs did. That is also a BIG difference.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. The truth is...
France hung themselves out online with the Libyan democratic groups.... They were the first to declare them the legitimate representatives of the Libyan people and they committed to the defense of Benghazi before the 124 tomahawk missile airstrike which destroyed the C2 and missile defenses of the Ghadafi dictatorship.

Not the surrender monkies the NeoCons painted them as with Iraq.

L-
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. France is on it's own agenda actually
but this is not exactly what the Neocons want either.

On a fun side, we shall now eat french fries instead of freedom fries.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. True
Just remember too that France and Libya have a long history. Libya was a major play in the civil war in Chad and a few other Northern Saharan countries. It was all a part of Ghadafyi's attempt to take over the governments of several other countries. France ended up committing troops to dislocate the Libyan troops (and mercenaries) who were very close to overthrowing the democratic government in Chad with a dictatorship. Somehow I don't think this has been forgotten.

France, right or wrong, still has a bit of a mother relationship with its former colonies. They can do what they want internally, but to hell with any outsider who tries and takes over things.

L-
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Why I mentioned France, Italy and Englad dusting their
old maps.

:-)

They all have a long history and at different periods have had ahem posts. For France the Foreign Legion had many a post near Tobruk and Benghazi, and do we need to mention WW II?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. You are going way into the past
Edited on Mon Mar-21-11 12:55 AM by Lithos
The French never had anything to do with Tobruk. That actually has more to do with Australian military history than French. If anything the French have very little history in Libya which was an Italian colony from 1913 to 1945 and then an independent country from that point forward.

The French have a much more pragmatic history with G's involvement in Chad from the 1970's and 1980's time frame. That is what I am referring to.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chadian%E2%80%93Libyan_conflict

As you will note there is some speculation that G's frustation with his failures to extend his empire into Chad led directly to Lockerbie.

L-
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. You are correct my bad
and why him talking about bringing civilian airliners again has to be taken seriously... even if his capacity has been greatly degraded.

Sorry I was thinking of the older days before 1939 when Africa was all kinds of European colonies...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. The French heroically held Bir Hacheim, which delayed Rommel being able to take Tobruk
Edited on Mon Mar-21-11 01:31 AM by PurityOfEssence
The Free French at Bir Hacheim fought a spirited and effective defense while isolated, and they almost ruined the Gazala Battles for Rommel; he had to pull in behind a minefield and fight his way back through to resupply. The French denied him the road around the Southern Flank and allowed the Commonwealth Troops and Allies to regroup. It didn't work, though; once Rommel resupplied, he mopped the place up with them, took Tobruk with little effort and was almost to Alexandria within a month before getting stopped.

The French get a bad rap for World War 2, but it's only ignorant or bigoted people who think so, and they almost single-handedly screwed things up for Rommel. After being surrounded in a desert outpost, assaulted repeatedly by combined arms and worn down, they even managed to escape to fight another day.

This was the summer of '42, and Tobruk was weak and held by small contingents of Indians. It was 1941 when the Australians held Tobruk so well. Rommel isolated it in April of '41, and the Allies relieved it in November.

Just to be a snot...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. LOL
That is but a blink in the eye of history and of course has absolutely no historical or cultural remembrance in today's affairs. The implication people are saying with this mention this is that the French have some sort of cultural memory from any battle from WWII in complete deference to much stronger issues before and since. I doubt Sarkozey is even aware of this battle, but I can be very assured he is aware of the long standing battles between France and Libya in Saharan Africa during the 70's, 80's and beyond.

L-
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
14. Jefferson sought and received authorization from Congress for the First Barbary War
Madison did the same thing for the second one.

The feeling was that the deployment didn't rise to the level of "war", since a squadron of warships was being sent to protect merchant shipping, and the intention to invade was not there.

There is an old tradition of going to Congress in certain less-than-war situations. Adams did it for the Undeclared War Against France. The distinction was actually quite at hand for Madison: he got a Declaration of War for the War of 1812, and he also got one to go after the Barbary Pirates again.

What I don't like is masquerading as a humanitarian mission to protect civilians, then IMMEDIATELY going after military forces that are in the process of engaging ARMED MILITARY FORCES of the provisional government. That is NOT the mandate, nor is regime change.

George W. Bush is/was a lying sack of shit asshole imperialist imbecile, but HE got permission from Congress and stated his aims (if not the justifications) rather clearly and accurately: regime change.

The precedent now being set allows us to, if we don't like a country's current government, get permission to protect "civilians" and use this piece of paper to crush the military we don't like and help the military we do like. "Protecting Civilians" is now a euphemism for protecting armed insurgents and affecting regime change.

Much as Qaddafi is a sterling fink, our self-righteous and blatant deceptions about our intentions are no problem for far too many who seem to have embraced Machiavelli's maxim that the end justifies the means.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. If humanitarian law is indeed moving that way
That is a big if, yes humanitarian interventions will become more common.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tcaudilllg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
18. Europe is pretty pacifist. The current leaders are going to be facing disaster in a hurry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bengalherder Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
19. Thank you Nadin!
This has been coming for awhile. I am ambivalent about it as well, given the possibility of mission creep.

However, IMO, We cannot simultaneously berate international lack of involvement with situations like Darfur then berate the UN for deciding to step in here.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. The true test sadly, will not be here, if indeed they have decided
to put teeth on Article Seven... but when the time comes for another Darfur... sadly humans are predictable in that way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC