About the acrimony on DU…

[Jackpine Radical]

While we could always do with less heat and more light, and ad hominem crap is unnecessary, I find DU to be particularly valuable as a place where people debate things from all sides. If I wanted to listen to a choir I'd go to church.

Case in point--the raging debate on the Libya intervention. I have not made up my mind how I feel about this whole mess, and I find the various discussion threads here to be extremely useful as people throw all sorts of considerations into the mix. I'm no expert on North Africa, nor on the geopolitics of the region. Other people here know a helluva lot more than I do--and, whatever their position on the affair, I value their input. They bring up things I might never have thought of or known.

What's true of Libya is true of a lot of contentious issues around here, including many on which I have formed an opinion. I don't just want to hear my own voice echoed. I need the continuous reality-check that is provided by intelligent and passionate advocates of other viewpoints, and it is not uncommon for me to shift my position in response to well-reasoned arguments from those who disagree with me.

[Angry Dragon]

1. K&R

[myrna minx]

2. I'm not sure how I feel about this either because it's so complicated,

but I know that I'm uncomfortable reading that this is all about humanitarianism, knowing full well that the people of Darfur were massacred while the world did nothing.

[snappyturtle]

9. +1 It's very complicated and that is why I question the fast movement

of the UN and the West. As the situation simmers I hope we can learn more (albeit probably by reading between the lines) the motives of the coalition and the rebels. This is not Egypt. The protesters of Egypt seemed well defined. I don't have that same sense of the rebels in Libya. It is an opportune time for the rebels in light of the north African unrest of late. Last night I read the transistional platform...who are these people? Will Libya be jumping out of the pan and into the fire? I also question all this 'humanitarianism'....I think it's a cloak, for what? time will tell.

[EFerrari]

23. That's where I am, too. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Why I am hoping this is teeth on article seven

[suffragette]

52. Thanks for this post myrna

Same way I feel

[madmax]

3. Thanks Jackpine

Needed to be said. This week and especially the last 2 days the snark is really out there.

[asjr]

4. Thank you.

[TBF]

5. I did a journal on the oil aspect yesterday -

and included quite a few articles in the thread: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TBF/41

Libya has a lot of oil, and is a big supplier for Europe.

That's where I'm falling in the mix - I believe this is all about the oil (particularly the article showing that Gaddafi had recently threatened to contract with India, China, and Brazil - outside of the normal bidding process - I believe that ruffled feathers).

Others will have to give you their thoughts on the humanitarian aspect. I would argue that we only get involved if there are resources we want (evidence - Rwanda - we stayed clear), but in the end if this helps the rebels is there some good to getting involved? I think those supporting Obama may make that argument and it's worth consideration.

[pacalo]

44. I knew Libya had rich oil resources but I didn't know about Gadhafi's plans.

I learned something today. :hi:

[TBF]

48. I knew very little when I started searching, just a hunch that

the oil must be lucrative. I'm sure there are other factors as well - such as our economy, an election coming up, and the fact that unrest in the middle east in general makes the capitalists nervous. But it all pretty much goes back to the oil. If there weren't oil there, it wouldn't be on our radar.

[Turborama]

54. I don't believe this is all about the oil and have posted two OPs which clearly explain why

This one which shows the oil corporations already had their feet under the table in Libya: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x696024

And this one which shows it was 219 Arab organizations from 18 countries not BP/Exxon etc that called for the NFZ: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x705275

[Lucinda]

6. I agree. It could be less contentious, but the discussion is invaluable.

knr

[opihimoimoi]

7. DU has become a source of info for our enemies too...our armchair generals(media) often give much

strategic answers and info to those who monitor...Libyns included

[Shagbark Hickory]

8. Thanks for being so opening minded. Now here's what your new opinion should be...

Libya = huge mistake.

[quinnox]

10. Yea, but to me some of the pro-war posts have been disgusting

A lot of implying and blatant accusing that you must love Quaddaffi or support him if you don't agree with the military force being used by Obama.

The exact same BS was used during the Iraq invasion - "Oh, so you must love Saddam, otherwise why don't you support this?"
Simple minded thinking is always so annoying.

To be honest, I don't respect any view point that thinks its OK for US to intervene in other countries internal conflicts. I think that whole idea is bankrupt and has been proven wrong and disastrous over and over again.

[pintobean]

13. "I don't respect any view point that thinks..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=701021&mesg_id=701021

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. +1 n/t

[Ikonoklast]

29. I offer up Kosovo as an example.

Not every foreign intervention is disastrous.

[WildEyedLiberal]

34. So... you don't being generalized by the "pro war" posters but proceed to generalize them?

Okie dokie. :shrug:

[StarburstClock]

70. Good point, plus I even got bullied for using the term "simple minded"

Although the proven wrong ideas of perma-war, trickle down, torture and numerous other proven fallacies do get old as hell, there are still people who are going to repeat their false beliefs over and over.

[mmonk]

11. Hey, none of that wishy washy stuff around here.

Just kidding.:) Good post. I come here for all sorts of reasons myself, and one of them is from input from different minds. Recommended.

[seabeyond]

12. i agree. though.... i dont bother having a discussion with some, cause discussion

isnt part of the formula. not worth the time. in those cases, i read.... and leave it at that.

[WingDinger]

14. I disagree. We can use all the heat we can muster.

And I recieved an ad hominem for encouraging the less passive liberal. Heap all the coals on you want to my positions. In fact, many times, that is what I desire. Personal, not so much.

I risked being a pain, by giving the admin a piece of my mind, and suggesting, BEFORE the change here, to allow varied viewpoints, and make this here a crucible of progressive intent. Distill our voices down here, even ugly, so that when we holler out there, it is at least in some harmony. That making this site, a go to for our commonISH voice. The stature of DU would overshadow Koz, Huff and all others. We are on that path.

Although it seemed that all was lost, admin here saw the wisdom of diversity, and went there. Happy days. Contentious issues.

[bvar22]

15. I will give this a K&R.

Part of my problem is that I can NOT trust anything coming from Our Government,
especially anything that has to do with MORE WAR.
We have been lied to so many times,
by Democrats & Republicans.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. exactly right.

Sometimes contentiousness is necessary.

I'm of the opinion that war is sometimes justified. Is it justified in this case? I'm leaning yes but want to more fully understand everything.

[Maru Kitteh]

18. good post

[bobbolink]

19. There is a difference between a discussion and acrimony.

But you knew that.

It is increasingly rare to find a real discussion here.

[Desertrose]

20. Dude.....

Yup...what you said.


:loveya::hug::loveya::hug:


:hi:DR

[Jackpine Radical]

36. Hi DR. Always great to see you online.

And a whole bunch of those little smilie thingies right back atcha.

[Flubadubya]

21. Ah, let Jackpine opine...

I appreciate what you have to say here bro!

Thanks for the words of sense and reason... hell, maybe even a little wisdom scattered in there. :applause::thumbsup::hi:

[Blue Owl]

22. K&R

:kick:

[snot]

24. Agreed. Also, re- the point about "ad hominem attacks" . . .

I come here looking for facts and arguments, both to help me form my own opinion and to be able to present it persuasively elsewhere.

To my mind, anything that simply calls someone else, or their posts, a disparaging name or adjective (e.g., "you're a moron" or "your priorities are wrong") is unhelpful.

It's also one more piece of chaff I have to sift through to try to find the wheat, to find something that's actually useful; plus it's often inflammatory and inspires a lot of other chaff, making my job that much harder and more time-consuming.

Just sayin'.

[Solly Mack]

25. K&R

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kentuck]

30. I'm sorry to hear that nadin...

Yours is always an interesting voice, whether I agree or not.

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. We have been able to disagree

not be disagreeable...

Why I made the point.

At this point I got a group of stalkers... and bullies, not people who can disagree.

I feel I am back in High School. Actually I wish I were back in HS... it was toxic, but nothing like this.

[Jackpine Radical]

38. Maybe you need some time to chill.

It's being a really crazy time, and a lot of us feel as battered and spun as pingpong balls in a Taiwanese grudge match. You've been in the thick of every battle that has come along this past month, and there have been a lot of them.

BTW, that night of the Wednesday Night Massacre in Madison will be with me forever--picking up tweets & cop radio calls from SD, relaying the messages to Chippewa Falls, my wife tweeting your stuff to her sister near Madison…it was an amazing ad-hoc communication net, the likes of which none of us could have imagined 10 years ago.

Don't let 'em get you down. We all seem to have "guardian angels" if you get my drift.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jackpine Radical]

39. Take a break, lady.

It's being a really crazy time, and a lot of us feel as battered and spun as pingpong balls in a Taiwanese grudge match. You've been in the thick of every battle that has come along this past month, and there have been a lot of them.

BTW, that night of the Wednesday Night Massacre in Madison will be with me forever--picking up tweets & cop radio calls from SD, relaying the messages to Chippewa Falls, my wife tweeting your stuff to her sister near Madison…it was an amazing ad-hoc communication net, the likes of which none of us could have imagined 10 years ago.

Don't let 'em get you down. We all seem to have "guardian angels" if you get my drift.

[petronius]

46. 'Like a pingpong ball in a Taiwanese grudge match'

That there is literature, that is... :rofl:

[hlthe2b]

59. Yup... I especially hate to lose the long timers...

Even those who deign to occasionally disagree with me! lol

Best to take short breaks and come back refreshed and ready to re-engage. Like the weather in Colorado, if you don't like the current conditions, just wait a little while. DU too has its cycles and they are ever changing.

[TahitiNut]

45. I find that an 18 month "sabbatical" helps.

:dunce:

[kentuck]

49. 'Nut !!!

We were asking about you?! Has everything been OK? What have you been up to?

[TahitiNut]

73. Doin' OK ... hangin' in there.

:patriot:

[opihimoimoi]

56. Welcome Home Nut....Hope all is well w you...:o)

[TahitiNut]

74. Aloha, brudda.

:hi:

[malaise]

57. Welcome back

:grouphug:

[TahitiNut]

75. Thanks, luv.

:hug:

[hlthe2b]

61. Now there's a familiar screen personna !

Welcome back! :toast:

[TahitiNut]

76. Tanks!

:fistbump:

[hlthe2b]

62. Hey hey... now there's a familiar "screen name"

Speaking of "long-timers" Welcome back! :toast:

[TahitiNut]

77. Gracies

:dunce: :fistbump:

[Dappleganger]

66. Hey, hey!

Party time!!

[TahitiNut]

78. Partay!

:party:

[Catherina]

53. I hope you'll just take a break Nadin and not leave

My ignore list grows by the day but it makes things bearable and filters out the stupid and the toxic. I hope you'll just take a break because I'd miss your thoughts, many here would.

[pacalo]

64. I have to say

it was puzzling that the entire milk thread wasn't scrubbed. It would have been the fair thing to do. I've seen less offensive, complete threads disappear (the pole dancing for Jesus thread from last night, for instance). Consistency is murky, at best.

:hug:

[Dappleganger]

65. There's another side to that story.

But you have put so many people on ignore that you don't have the means to debate it.

[DainBramaged]

28. That was nice, like not finding a hair in my bagel and cream cheese.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Oh and kicking and recommending in the hopes it is seen by the powers that be

[stuntcat]

33. it kills me how people will treat each other here

.

[Bluerthanblue]

35. thank you for this, I agree

I've learned an awful lot in my years here, about all kinds of things- and have enjoyed the diverse and passionate community we are.

I'd like to see us treat each other better.

:hi:

rec'd

[arcane1]

37. Thank you! I'm in the same boat

Usually I can rely on DU to have information and opinion that I can digest for a better understanding, but there seems to be more name-calling than discussion on this topic :(

[druidity33]

41. I agree with you, but...

what bothers me most about DU (well, truthfully about forum sites in general) is the people who will dismiss your considered and linked/researched viewpoint without offering any sort of fact based discussion. It is frustrating. I want to hear opposing viewpoints. I NEED that. But i want to be swayed by fact, and cogent argument. I tend not to use IGNORE as a feature, but there are folks here who NEVER do their homework and manage to get to 1,000 posts in just a few weeks... they're like distortion in the background that needs to get tuned out. Admittedly, it has occasionally put me off DU. I keep coming here because it's the best at what it is, but UGH ... sometimes this place is a stinkhole.

my favorite 'smilie'
:shrug:

[fittosurvive]

42. What about it?

Some people are capable of reading, interpreting and understanding the legitimate process that this country should follow prior to initiating a state of war; while others are not.

So, as the United States goes charging into a third undeclared war in the Middle East, the capable are infuriated with those who have no concept of why it is immoral to sacrifice our sons and daughters on the altar of the United Nations.

[pacalo]

43. That's exactly how I feel. I've changed my mind, too, after reading thoughtful discussions that

led me to stand back & really think about the whole picture.

Well done, jackpine.

:toast:

[Norrin Radd]

47. kr

[WillyT]

50. HUGE K & R !!!

:kick:

[Catherina]

51. Rec'd. Great post n/t

[Turborama]

55. K&R & Thanks for your reasonableness

Off to check out your blog now...

[JoseGaspar]

58. Nah...

Inviting the United States into any other country, for humanitarian or democratic reasons, is like having Jeffrey Dahmer over for lunch.

Getting confused over the question because it is now Obama who advocates it is like having Dahmer declare that he is now a vegetarian.

Having to re-litigate exactly the same issue each and every time... that is secretly wondering if Jeff might stay the weekend because he is such a brilliant conversationalist.

[bigwillq]

60. K and R

:thumbsup: Good post.

[sad sally]

63. Military conflict stirs up strong emotions.

I've been scolded for not understanding why the US has launched itself into another conflict, but I just keep coming back to DU, knowing my anti-war beliefs may not be those of other posters, and that I will be subjected to terse comments regarding my sometimes snarky words. I hope I can learn something I hadn't considered before.

I respect that others believe military air strikes are the right thing to do, even though they may not (or maybe they will) feel the same way if it becomes necessary to put American troops in to bring about peace among tribal groups and Army engineers to rebuild destroyed infrastructure. Also, there will be huge amounts of funding that will need to come from somewhere, which may mean important social programs and rebuilding infrastructure in America (jobs) will be delayed or scraped.

As for who the rebels are, since two of the military council members, Omar Hariri and General Abdul Fatah Younis, were involved in the 1969 coup that brought Qaddafi to power, hopefully, we know for sure they've truly changed sides.

By Andrew England
Published: March 20 2011 14:48 | Last updated: March 20 2011 14:48

Who are the rebel fighters?

The opposition’s disorganisation and lack of clear leadership structures has been at its most conspicuous with its fighting forces. Army, air force, and naval personnel defected to the opposition, but their strength and capacity, as well as who led them, has often been unclear. When Col. Gaddafi’s forces launched counter-offensives in the east, most of the rebel fighters were young volunteers in looted uniforms who careered into battle in pick-up trucks with virtually no training. The defected army units, officers said, supported them with arms and some volunteer officers, but there was no mass movement of the professional soldiers as army officers spoke of shoring up the defences of territory under opposition control.

A military council under the national council, was set up to co-ordinate security matters, headed by Omar Hariri, who was involved in the 1969 coup that brought Col Gaddafi to power, but was later jailed. His prominence rose after Libyan state television broadcast a tape of what it purported was a telephone conversation between him and the US ambassador.

Another key figure on the opposition’s military front is General Abdul Fatah Younis. He was also involved in the 1969 coup and was a seen as an integral part of the regime and close ally of Col. Gaddafi until the uprising wrought bloodshed on Benghazi. He resigned as interior minister around February 20 and used his post as head of Libya’s special forces to support the civilian fighters. However, some Libyans are still wary of his true loyalties. As the regime forces moved eastwards towards Benghazi, the army appeared to take on a more active role.

more at
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5bfb98b0-52fd-11e0-86e6-00144feab49a.html#ixzz1HID6QfwM?du

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

68. The problem here is not passionate differences of opinion.

The problem here is the relentless, nonstop bullying.

How many Lord of the Flies re-enactments do we need to see here before something is done about it?

[StarburstClock]

69. There's a real easy way to end it, ban ad-hom attacks

Every thread I read is full of them, makes it worthless to read most of them. A lot of people have no intent whatsoever to share ideas, only to insult.

[QC]

72. Officially, ad hominem attacks are banned, and, officially,

"People who repeatedly and willfully break the rules, or who generally engage in rude, anti-social behavior, will be banned" (http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html).

In practice, though, most of the ugliness here is the work of a relatively small crew that does little to nothing besides attack, stalk, swarm, and bully, and most have been at it for years, upwards of a decade in some cases.

[NYC Liberal]

79. They already are...just make sure you alert on them.

"Personal attacks, insults, name-calling, or questioning the character or motives of other DU members; discussing DU members rather than ideas" -- against the rules

[johnroshan]

71. That is something I find a lot nowadays in DU.

When I first came in here about 2 years ago. There were differing opinions, but I found the debate polite and civil. Now, I can see a lot of name-calling, putting-downs of people who hold a different opinion. Its so sad that the make-up of DU is getting closer to free-republic day by day, atleast in the way they treat each other.

John.