An inarguable, damning truth about the US in Libya

[jpgray]

There are apparently emergencies that allow for an instant expenditure in the billions, but rampant unemployment among our own citizens is not one of them. We can find this money, to be spent at a moment's notice, for slinging missiles, but not for a jobs bill of any kind. What does this say about our politics? Or do you disagree with the above statement?

[myrna minx]

1. We won't provide funding for Head Start, but we can provide endless funds to feed the maw of the war

machine. :-( It's the neo-con way.

[Rage for Order]

30. The problem with your statement is...

The neo-cons were voted out in November 2008. Weren't they? :shrug:

[Maat]

47. Obviously not (n/t).

[loudsue]

79. Word. n/t

[Truth2Tell]

32. Yesterday the US shot 119 Tomahawk missiles into Libya

at a cost of $575,000 per missile the total cost (just to produce not deliver the missiles) was $68.425 Million, or $8.4 Million more than NPR receives in a year.

[xiamiam]

37. how much would that be if they just sent 300 million americans a check?

because i think, a lot of homes could be saved..homeless people would be off the streets, the economy would get a jump start, etc etc etc

[Rage for Order]

38. Well, to be fair...

Under your scenario each American would only receive about 50 cents if they paid out the $68 million (and no, I don't mean the rap star)

[xiamiam]

39. ok..brain dead today..nt

[Rage for Order]

40. However, if we'd have done that with the bailout funds, instead of giving them to Wall Street

And the stimulus funds, it would have been about $10,000 per person, assuming a total of $3 trillion spent for bail out + stimulus and 300 million people. I think that would have been a much better use of the money

[spooked911]

73. can we all become anti-war protestors now?

seriously-- just 1% of the population who are committed activists, could change so much

[swilton]

82. Tomahawk Cruise Missiles = $570,000 K @

Primary Function: Long-range subsonic cruise missile for striking high value or heavily defended land targets.
Contractor: Raytheon Systems Company, Tucson, AZ.
Date Deployed: Block II TLAM-A IOC - 1984
Block III – IOC 1994
Block IV – IOC expected 2004.
Unit Cost: Approximately $569,000 (FY99 $).
Propulsion: Block II/III TLAM-A, C & D - Williams International F107 cruise turbo-fan engine; ARC/CSD solid-fuel booster
Length: 18 feet 3 inches (5.56 meters); with booster: 20 feet 6 inches (6.25 meters).
Diameter: 20.4 inches (51.81 cm).

[Freddie Stubbs]

93. Actually, President Obama's FY 2012 budget provides $8.1 billion for Head Start and

Early Head Start to serve approximately 968,000 children and families, maintaining the historic expansion undertaken with Recovery Act funds.

more: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/health.pdf

[dipsydoodle]

2. Mind over matter

and the US public, apparently, don't matter.

[Brickbat]

3. Truth hurts.

[tabatha]

4. The only way to change that is either

to give Obama full power over the economy as he has over the military - or vote the F***king "No"-sayers out of office.

The "No"-sayers are hell-bent on robbing the poor to give to the rich, and thank god for the people of Wisconsin - hopefully enough people will get out to vote the bastards out.

[jpgray]

11. I don't recall Obama pushing a jobs bill

But as such a bill would be unlikely to pass, there's plenty of blame to go around and it rests chiefly with the GOP, as always. If the Libya action were put to a vote, however, I have little doubt an authorization for the use of force would pass Congress.

[Angry Dragon]

24. Yeah he did

The Regressive Party said they needed the tax cut for the rich so they could create jobs.
He gave them the tax cuts, but the rich somewhere lost sight of the jobs as they spent their tax cut.

[ThomCat]

26. Obama once pushed one small jobs bill for teachers. That was it.

It was grossly insufficient even just for the number of teachers that are out of work.

Nothing has been proposed for everyone else that is out of work. No jobs programs for everyone else. Nothing.

Unless you are counting the Military as a jobs program? If you are poor and desperate enough, and young and healthy enough to enlist, go sign away all of your rights and become an Indentured Servant to your country for a few years, fight and possibly die, and count yourself lucky that they'll pay you a bit and feed you for your troubles.

[Raksha]

29. And then if you're lucky enough to come home in one piece

and not too much of a basket case from PTSD, you can come home and collect unemployment, and possibly join the ranks of homeless vets after that runs out.

[ThomCat]

33. You would NOT be able to collect unemployment.

If you are not in "ready to work" condition, either because of a mental or physical disability, then you are not eligible for unemployment.

People with disabilities are expected to apply for short term disability, and then apply for Social Security Disability.

SS Disability takes an average of 2.5 years, and up to 5 years to get, so in the meantime, while you wait several years to find out if you can get a monthly check to survive, expect to spend a lot of time trying to get on public assistance and waiting in line at soup kitchens and food pantries.

That is why so many disabled vets end up homeless. :(

[jimmil]

84. Well let's not slap Obama down so hard......

I receive occasional veteran material since I'm disabled. I recently found it humorous because, pathetically not enough, just doesn't stretch that far. The VA is offering $600K in what they are calling, Stand Down Grants, for homeless veterans to reintegrate into society. So, if you divide that into the 10,000 (low est) homeless vets each vet will receive $60 to buy a house, car, clothing, etc. to become productive citizens.

[Telly Savalas]

31. It might not pass, but for cynical reasons

I could see the GOP voting against it solely on the grounds that Obama supports it.

But I agree with the general spirit of your argument, and I'd like to think this view is shared by everyone at DU -- even those who support the action in Libya.

[Jester Messiah]

78. So why not do it right?

It would have been an opportunity for Obama to unify the congress, however briefly, and finally show some leadership.

[TheKentuckian]

5. That point is one I have concede and agree with.

[TBF]

6. Agree. K&R nt

[malaise]

7. Shhhhhhhhhhhhh

Watch the unrecs roll in

K & R

[KittyWampus]

8. Some things require going through Congress, don't you understand how America's government works?

What does it say about our politics?

That one house of Congress is in the death grip of idiot Republicans.

[bread_and_roses]

71. Which House was that between '08-'10? (n/t)

[xchrom]

9. Recommend

[NightWatcher]

10. the Unemployed need better lobbyists

the Military Industrial Congressional Complex has amongst its ranks all kinds of former generals and former political leaders.

[bighart]

15. Maybe the unemployed should form a PAC and ask those who

are employed an support their plight to donate.

[bighart]

12. Pretty messed up situation.

[originalpckelly]

13. Did we just make the missiles?

We will replace them later, but they already exist. We don't have "spend" it in the moment.

[jpgray]

16. I didn't know fire and forget extended so far.

:)

Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments sees the cost of initial operations alone going to ~$800 million. Costs after that are estimated at about $100 million a week to maintain a coastal NFZ.

[ReggieVeggie]

17. a convenient excuse

They are military assets that we screwed over social programs for over the last 10 to 15 years.

[Catherina]

14. Rec'd of course with a big NO to the US war machine n/t

[Jamastiene]

18. One minute, our government is falling all over itself

saying there is not enough money to run the country and that social programs need to be cut drastically. Forget jobs. That ain't happening with this bunch. They can't find any money to do anything...until...

The next minute, missiles are flying.

Funny how money seems to magically appear for bombs, but when it comes time to run the country, it is nowhere to be found.

[freshwest]

19. k and r

[Bandit]

20. USA...USA....USA...

:shrug:

[The Doctor.]

21. We have plenty of people who need humanitarian help here.

While I agree with the principle of helping the Libyan people, the willingness of our 'leaders' to blow trillions on fights we will see little or no return on is utterly disgusting.

[bobbolink]

22. It means we are totally screwed up, but not for helping other countries in any way.

We are screwed (up and down) because we allow a president to give away billions in tax cuts to RICH people.

We can't have the funds we need for low-income housing so people like me can be inside our own home when there is smoke from fires, but we can give more $$$ to rich people who off-shore that money.

How fucked it that?

[Angry Dragon]

23. We are just paying the price for having our fingers in

every country and trying to shape the world to our liking............

[ZombieHorde]

25. That is my interpretation. nt

[Catherina]

27. In a fair world, the war hawks should have their taxes raised & pay every cent of it n/t

[The Doctor.]

36. I wish we could do that. Let's add; send their own sons and daughters

or themselves into the battles.

Hell, if you really believe in a cause you would kill for, then you'd be willing to give your life.

[Catherina]

91. That too. It's too easy to send other people's kids to die for your interests n/t

[Kip Humphrey]

28. Must...Save...The...Oil... Must...Save...The...Oil... Must...Save...The...Oil...

[AtheistCrusader]

49. Côte d'Ivoire doesn't export oil. We've supported the challenger for president.

Along with the UN, and the African Union. Yet Gbagbo maintains control, despite similar military clashes between government troops loyal to Gbagbo and Outtara's rebels.

Difference?

NO OIL

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/world/africa/12ivory.html?_r=1

[robinlynne]

34. I'm with you, and tired of republicans running the country.....

[sad sally]

35. Agree, and will not be surprised if this military intervention

becomes the focus of all the spending issues that the President and Congress deal with for months to come. With a promise to pay for new spending and not add it to the deficit, the President will undoubtedly face tough questions from both the majority House who hold the purse strings and members of his own party.

What we (the forgotten "people") ask about where the money to launch this intervention came or is coming from is not important to either Congress or the President. We will be asked to support the troops, to understand that this is a mission critical to American security and any sacrifices we have to make - like major reductions to social programs and pesky entitlements - are worth the pride we can feel in securing peace in the Middle East.

In other words, policies that are concerned about American jobs are a crock of bs.

[Poll_Blind]

41. You got that right.

PB

[DeSwiss]

42. K&R

Unemployment? Where?

[donheld]

43. Recommended and reposted on Facebook

[AntiFascist]

44. This is because....

the MIC is a well-run machine with entire departments within government dedicated to their needs. They have well-paid lobbyists and politicos on their payroll ready to do their bidding. They even have, otherwise liberal, media outlets ready to promote their cause when needed.

[Tx4obama]

45. The missiles were made and paid for BEFORE Obama took office.

The missiles have a self life of 15 years, when the expire they are replaced.
Even if we hadn't gone to Libya the cost would not have changed.

[Vanje]

46. How frugal

[AtheistCrusader]

48. Well, since we are in a fiscally responsible sharing mood, why no help for the Ivory Coast?

Oh, right, no oil exports.

Not to be an ass, but it's pretty much the same situation as Libya, with that one, eensy weensy difference.

[obxhead]

52. Incorrect.

These missiles will now need to be immediately replaced. That replacement might not have been due until the next decade. The bombs we have dropped from aircraft will be immediately replaced. We had to pay for fuel for the planes. Danger pay to the personnel involved had to be paid. I could go on and on.

The action against has an immediate expense that was not budgeted.

[Tx4obama]

54. BUT ...

Planes and pilots go on exercise runs all the time.
And how do you know that the missiles will have to be replaced immediately? They might be the oldest ones that we have and their replacements might have already been paid for in one of the last budgets.
And how do you know that perhaps we don't have an extra surplus of missiles and using these might bring the number down to the number that we are suppose to have in the first place?
There are a lot of questions that no one really has any answers for.

p.s.
Obama Administration: There Are No Current Plans To Ask Congress For Libya Funds
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4781518&mesg_id=4781563

[obxhead]

58. LOL

Exercise runs over safe territory are not the same as combat missions over hostile territory. To say so is beyond insane.

No current plans. Ok, I have a bridge and an island for sale. Current just means we aren't going to talk about the cost right now. We'll just break out the AE card for now and worry about the bill when it arrives in the mail.

What a crock of shit.

[Tx4obama]

60. I was referring to the cost of the fuel being used.

A plane uses the same amount of fuel per mile no matter if it is flying over a safe territory or an unsafe one.
I thought you could have figured that one out.

[Vanje]

94. Yes

Crock. Full crock of brown.

[Jester Messiah]

81. We're going to have to buy more in order to restock the armory.

The admirals and generals will see to that, bet on it.

[AllyCat]

89. Well, damn, then we need to use them. Hurry!

Of course, the attack costs money, but nowhere NEAR as much as the coming decades-long occupation for "democracy" that will ensue after this attack.

Authorizing the USE of missiles against humans still puts him complicit.

Again, billions and trillions for war, none for the people who need it, and we STILL have to pay for it.

[Vanje]

95. Our missiles are nearing their "use by" date...

QUICK! we need to bomb someone!

[Vanje]

96. It would be a waste of money NOT to bomb someone!

Is this how we do foreign policy?
I've got some rusty old bombs I need to drop on someone right now. What luck!

[slay]

50. Our government is not on the side of the people

it's on the side of the super rich, the corporations, the military industrial complex, and the lobbbyists - and why shouldn't they be - they're the ones who REALLY got these people elected. Bought and paid for - on both sides of the isle. It's sickening - and it's sad that they have so divided the country that it seems impossible for us to unite as a people anymore. :(

[obxhead]

51. Big K&R. Our good "Christian" nation will expend any amount of

capital and lives to kill for an oil bearing country, but fight over pennies for the poor or needy in the homeland.

It infuriates me.

[JI7]

53. that has always been one of the things that made USA different from other countries

[HEyHEY]

55. That's not a problem with Libya, it's a problem with your management

Unemployment in the USA doesn't make the situation in Libya any better or worse. It doesn't make going in there any better or worse. I would also suggest much of this money comes from a pile set aside for just this type of contingency. As well, much of the equipment being used is already spent, I would assume they aren't buying this ordinance off the factory floor before they use it.

[jpgray]

57. Yeah, you'll notice the absence of the words "and therefore intervening is wrong"

I'm just saying our political system here is able to act very quickly, committing billions, in some kinds of emergencies, but not so much in others. That's damning, in my view. As you say, that doesn't make Libya intervention wrong or right, and it was never my intention to imply otherwise.

As for the equipment, the cost estimates for the initial bombing of air defenses / etc. go up to $800 million. The estimates for weekly maintenance of a coastal-only NFZ go up to $100 million a week. Keeping this sort of thing up requires more than replacement missiles in terms of resources, I'm sure.

[HEyHEY]

59. Well, I think the reason the USA is stepping down in a few days

Has something to do with the cost. I'd like to know how so many western nations seem to have this endless barrel of money though.

[Adsos Letter]

98. " Keeping this sort of thing up requires more than replacement missiles in terms of resources..

...I'm sure."

Without a doubt; fuel, wear and tear on equipment, etc., etc..

I agree with you that our economic priorities are absolutely wrong-headed.

I think your OP was very well crafted. :thumbsup:

For transparency's sake: I supported the NFZ, even understanding that the UN resolution authorized more than just a NFZ to ensure civilian protection (but without boots-on-the-ground), but I had/have a LOT of reservations about it. These reservations have grown since reading many of the rationally presented arguments on DU, some of which caused me to question the validity of the interpretation of what is happening on the ground.

[Adsos Letter]

97. No, but we will have to replace it.

[PufPuf23]

56. Neo-Liberalism is not much different from in economic and

foreign policy than Neo-Conservatism.

Supply side or trickle down economics is as -- of all creature GHWB said "voodoo" economics -- counter to natural law and a bone head economic and invalid model.

What happens with low taxes to the uber wealthy and dividend and capital gains class is that income and wealth distribution gets skewed. The investment income of the uber-wealthy is under taxed and is hoarded or put in foreign safe havens until the time to bottom feed private and "public" assets through privatization of the "cream" of a distressed American economy. The cycle we must break as a People, Nation, and World Power if only to ease transition to an Earth overly saturated by humans.

Population reduction over many generations is the correct goal but does not need to be cruel nor catastrophic.

This is not to suggest eugenics. Atypical indiviuals are the paths to adjustment the longer the time horizon. Resources are adequate for a smooth transition to a better marriage between humanity and nature.

Frankly, I am shocked over the world and have been for some time.

[Divine Discontent]

61. There's nothing wrong with the truth! thanks for the OP.

[Adsos Letter]

62. It is an inarguable and damning truth.

[OneBlueSky]

63. it's all quite simple, really . . .

the defense contractors need to sell more bombs . . . and they can only do that if the existing stockpile is depleted . . .

as Gen. Smedley Butler said so many years ago:

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes." . . .

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lorien]

65. And yes, people were/ are being murdered there. But we've murdered over a MILLION

Iraqi citizens and God knows how many Afghans and Pakistanis, and for what? Oil? A pipeline? War profiteering? That money could have gone into an Apollo project for green clean energy which could have freed us from such conflicts forever and put millions of Americans to work (especially if the efforts included a National High Speed MagLev rail system) Not to mention the environmental benefits that are critical to our survival. But no; the status quo must be maintained at all costs; even if we the people are what's sacrificed in the end. Had enough yet?

[Mimosa]

66. K&R for painful indisputable TRUTH.

I noticed who hasn't shown up to argue. :D

[paparush]

67. The govt spent more on Tomahawk missiles than we give to NPR.

[spooked911]

72. exactly-- shows our fu$%ed-up priorities

[ElsewheresDaughter]

68. this Libya thing is a Rove created TRAP for President Obama also designed with.......

a lot of "divide and conquer" thrown in just in time for the election cycle.

all the talking piomts this morning are "Obama haqs to now stay the cource and finish what he started otherwise he will make America look weaker then it laready does"

in the mean while the world is being poisoned by Fukushima and nobody is talking about a solution anymore....it's not going away

[Le Taz Hot]

69. It's all about pleasing the corporate masters. n/t

[mmonk]

70. Unfortunately, the needs of the people never rise to a such a level of

importance.

[Hubert Flottz]

74. Our unemployment don't have a drop of oil!

[PhillySane]

75. Nailed it my friend

nailed it

[handmade34]

76. at SF airport this morning

watching people and thinking... simply... we are all pawns

[bertman]

77. Agree 100%. REC. nt

[Enthusiast]

80. The interests of "We the People"

are now of very little consequence to those in elected office. Campaign money and candidate marketing are now far more important to re-election than performance in office.

Greed, corruption, the Citizens United decision and a complicit media are the reasons for this erosion of our democracy. Want to do something about it? Me too.

[TomClash]

83. Why do you hate America?

You're a moran! :sarcasm:

Stop making sense.

[emald]

85. absolute truth.

A million and a half per missile. Our country is way beyond sick.

[golddigger]

86. K&R for truth!

[AllyCat]

87. Oh, but this is a jobs bill. We can all join the military.

Viola! Employment problem solved.

Do I need the sarcasm thingy?

[bullwinkle428]

88. Pisses me off that I missed the rec period by 6 minutes, but I can still kick!

[NillaWafers]

90. Too late to rec. n/t

[Catherina]

92. Totally agree. Rec'd yesterday. n/t

[blindpig]

99. Who benefits?

Who rules?

And there ya are.