People in the Congo are still dying at a rate of an estimated 45,000 per month.

[sudopod]

2,700,000 people have died since 2004.

Rwanda never ended.

Is it not shocking how little an impact this has made in our media? 2.7 million. That's the entire population of some countries.

I am no fan of the regime in Libya, but I wish we could give a damn about these people too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War

[Swede]

1. Does it need a no fly zone?

Maybe the UN can vote on that.

[msongs]

2. In the USA more than 2 million people died in just one year, 2004! - source = USA Today mt

[sudopod]

4. These people died due to the war and the resulting famine.

The Democratic Republic of Congo has an estimated population of 71 million, in comparison to 320 million in the US.

Moreover, the current intervention in Libya is taking place due to the murder of 9,000 people.

This world is an awful place. :( I am ready to go to another one.

[sad sally]

41. The DRC also deals with this monster and Lake Kivu*

This African nation also has what is thought to be the most active and least studied volcano in the world - Nyiragongo. The reason? War and lack of $2 million needed for modern equipment to study it, which could mean life or death for the millions who live in its path. Do we have money to help DRC? No, we need to spend it on missiles.

*Trillions of cubic feet of disolved methane and carbon dioxide are in the lake leaching from the volcano. A major eruption or quake could release a deadly cloud of gases, generate a tsuanami and take out most of the Democratic Republic of Congo. Will say it again, we'd rather spend money on missiles than help this suffering nation.

[sudopod]

44. This is a perfect example of the sort of thing we should all know about

but don't. Jesus Christ, that's awful. :(

[snappyturtle]

6. The Congo has a population of 3,683,000. eom

[sabrina 1]

17. Do you know anything about this conflict? I will assume you

do not because to make such a remark if you did would be beyond words.

It is one of the worst and most brutal conflicts in the world today and it has gone on for so long, yet no one seems to want to help for humanitarian purposes. Despite the efforts of many human rights organizations, the world has basically always turned a blind eye to it.

Women are raped repeatedly there, over and over to the point where many women are so injured they will never be able to bear children, rape is a crime used as a weapon of war. Children are forced to fight and kill and maim their former neighbors and families. Child soldiers. It is hell on earth and yet, none of the Western Humanitarian Nations, now so incredibly concerned about the Libyan people, who, no matter how bad their circumstances may be, are living in paradise compared to the Congolese, ever suggested going there to help those people.

But then, they don't have much that we want.

[reggie the dog]

24. you hit the nail on the head

the people in libya can benefit from the worlds help because they have oil, the others in democratic republic of the congo dont really have anything.

[Hugabear]

20. Genocide, shmenocide

Who fucking cares. They're not Libyans, are they? :sarcasm:

[dionysus]

34. you can just feel the liberal compassion for humanity in that post....

:puke:

[LiberalAndProud]

3. Short term military solutions are only that.

We have little history of success in advocating for human rights in any region where we have intervened militarily. Few of our State officials have the vision of George Marshall for creating a foundation on which human rights are likely to flourish.

We have one foreign relations tool and we spend a great deal of money to keep it. It will bankrupt us in the end and do very little to truly improve the human condition on this planet.

[Motown_Johnny]

31. Genocide is forever

Short term military solutions can sometime allow other alternatives to present themselves.

Not always, and perhaps not in this situation but it should be clear by now that doing nothing is wrong.

[quinnox]

5. Apparently, their lives are not worth as much as Libyan ones

Just another example of the hypocrisy of the UN and the USA.

[sudopod]

7. This is important. nt

[LiberalAndProud]

8. In the aftermath ...

(Repost from an earlier response on a quickly dead thread)

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/civilians-somalia-face-ongoing-human-rights-violations-2010-03-25

Civilians in Somalia face ongoing human rights violations
Abuses in the last six months have been mainly committed by opposition groups
Thousands have been killed or injured by shelling and other heavy bombardment
25 March 2010

Clear patterns of human rights abuse have emerged during the latest cycle of violence in Somalia, which began when armed opposition groups launched a major offensive against the government in Mogadishu in May 2009, Amnesty International said on Thursday.

In the document, No end in sight: The ongoing suffering of Somalia's civilians, Amnesty International reviews violations of international human rights and humanitarian law committed over the past six months, primarily by armed groups opposed to the Somali government and African Union (AU) forces.

The document also lists allegations of indiscriminate fire by government and AU forces that need to be investigated.

Thousands of civilians have been killed and injured by shelling and other heavy bombardment, as armed opposition groups al-Shabab and Hizbul Islam have fought Transitional Federal Government (TFG) and AU forces, primarily in the capital Mogadishu.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/11/24/lead-contaminated-roma-camps-kosovo-shut-down

Lead-Contaminated Roma Camps in Kosovo Shut Down
Protecting the health of vulnerable, displaced people
December 9, 2010

The EC and USAID are now closing down the Roma camps in Mitrovica and constructing alternative housing.
.This fall, the European Commission (EC) and the US Agency for International Development (USAID) began closing down lead-contaminated camps in Kosovo, where displaced Roma were living in abysmal health conditions for a decade. Human Rights Watch documented more than a decade of failure by the United Nations and others to provide adequate housing and medical treatment for the Roma in these camps, and pressed the EC and USAID to relocate the camps’ inhabitants to a safe environment with access to medical treatment.

In Pristina, Brussels, New York, and Washington, we briefed Kosovo authorities, international donors, and governments on our findings and recommendations and pressed for urgent action to remedy the problem. We conducted substantial media outreach, including the production and distribution of a photo slideshow, which resulted in prominent press coverage in the Guardian, the Observer, and on Deutsche Welle and the newswires.

[sudopod]

9. Something is very wrong with this Libya situation.

I don't claim to know why we have chosen to fight there as opposed to anywhere else, but it seems to me that if we want break the back of evil by swooping in on wings of vengeful fire, there are more worthy targets, are there not?

It's as if the developed world has a blind spot that covers most of a continent, and anything that happens there may as well have happened on Mars.

[LiberalAndProud]

10. I don't agree with our latest adventure in Libya.

But my outrage is less at that than at the fact that we are willing to blink at human rights abuses for decades. Qaddafi didn't just start being a bad guy last month. We (specifically UN member nations) have had decades to try to find a nonmilitary avenue to confront him, but it wasn't until the flow of oil dried up that we found an urgent reason to intervene. If we had the will, I think we could find a way.

Libya is only a symptom of the world's inability (unwillingness?) to confront tyranny before it becomes crisis.

[JI7]

11. this is because of what happened in Somalia, also in Libya it's about 1 guy

while involvement in these other areas would mean deeper involvement .

i'm not saying it's right or anything but just what it is. in Egypt, Tunisia , Libya the evil is mostly focused on 1 person/family. there is no religious or ethnic element that is part of the reason for people protesting.

[sudopod]

12. I don't see why that excuses ignoring a conflict that is three orders of magnitude more deadly. nt

[JI7]

14. what do you think they should do in these areas you mention ?

[sudopod]

15. Simpy speaking about it would do wonders.

I suspect that few or none of the people who have viewed this thread tonight were previously aware of the ongoing genocide. If the political leadership of the Western Powers chose to make it an issue, the rabble of broken armies and militias running wild there would stand up and take notice. Moreover, the vast majority of deaths there are no longer from bullets (though the tattered remnants of armies continue to kill each other and any unfortunates caught in their paths) but from famine and disease brought about by the complete unraveling of local culture, social structure, and government in the wake of the conflict. Even a little food and medical aid would go far, but alas, that part of Africa fails to hold our interest for some reason, regardless of the fact that it contains a vast amount of mineral and energy wealth.

No airlifts, airstrikes, speeches, or fundraisers on behalf of the survivors there are in the offing.

I did not aim to change the world with this thread, only to illustrate that the West's priorities in Africa are mystifying.

[LiberalAndProud]

13. I'm not positive I understand what you're saying.

"no religious or ethnic element that is part of the reason for people protesting"

I wonder if you will continue to hold the same opinion after reading this article.

http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/comment/libyas-toxic-tribal-divisions-are-greater-than-qaddafi

Libya's toxic tribal divisions are greater than Qaddafi
Mustafa Fetouri
Last Updated: Mar 2, 2011

The leaders of Tunisia and Egypt left office after they delivered their third televised speech. The same script, many believed, would be followed in Libya.

The Libyan leader has now spoken four times on television and appeared twice in public. Colonel Muammar Qaddafi has not gone anywhere. This is not the only reason why Libya is different from its neighbours on the Mediterranean.

While the nation shares many of the same problems as Egypt and Tunisia, it stands out in two important ways: the nature of its political institutions and its social fabric. Libya's political landscape has long been a barren desert. Its social and tribal fabrics, however, remain vibrant. Throughout Col Qaddafi's leadership, even during the peak of his popularity during his first two decades in power, his efforts were only as effective as his ability to navigate this tribal terrain and manipulate his own tribal base using both carrots and sticks. Loyalty prevailed above all and loyalties still explain much of what is happening in Libya today. The question now is who still supports the regime and why? What does that mean for Libya's future?

[Selatius]

16. As near as I can tell, Qadhafi simply looked like he was on his way out.

A large chunk of international opinion now would no longer accept Qadhafi's presence anymore, so as near as I can tell, the people who hold the power figured they would have a better chance recognizing the rebels as a legitimate or face anger from their own constituency over continuing to do business with a dictator.

I mean, people don't like Kim Jong-Il, but he hasn't angered public opinion in the same way that Qadhafi has. Also, Kim's position is rather solid compared to Qadhafi's at the present, and the elites know that, and the elites also recognize public opinion with respect to Kim can be called "resigned" as far as accepting the fact that he'll be around a long time.

[LiberalAndProud]

18. Do you really believe that energy concerns had no bearing?

Realizing that you can't hear my tone as I ask that question, it is a sincere query -- no sarcasm is intended.

[Selatius]

21. Energy is in the equation, for sure.

If Qadhafi is on his way out, then the elites in Europe and the United States would definitely want to open relations with the rebels as far as continuing to have access to crude oil.

[LiberalAndProud]

23. I am almost certain we don't know all the political maneuvering that has gone on behind the scenes.

I have strong suspicions that Abdel Fatah Yunes has designs on the Presidency, and I have some niggling suspicions about how much encouragement he may have received from outside interests. I note that Qaddafi seeks to discredit him with the rebels.

http://english.pravda.ru/news/hotspots/19-03-2011/117252-gaddafi_libya-0/
Libyan state television says Abdel Fatah Yunes, the interior minister who defected to the rebels at the beginning of March, had returned to the Qaddafi camp and to his old job. There was no immediate confirmation of General Yunes' alleged about-turn, Telegraph reported.

(Yunes has denied this.) I am certain that much intrigue goes on behind the scenes that we aren't privy to.

I am reasonably confident that Qaddafi probably would have crushed this rebellion in relatively short order absent outside intervention. What I am less certain of is that we will have minimized harm in the region by our actions. If we don't do this right, there will be a long civil war that will outlive Qaddafi by a distance.

[Hugabear]

19. Nobody is bombing them, so STFU

Unless they have an easily identifiable boogeyman (ie Gadhaffi), and unless they're being bombed from the air, and unless they formally request a no-fly-zone, then they can go fuck themselves. Oh, and it helps if they have valuable resources (ie oil).

[TheMadMonk]

22. Well in fact they do. Tantalum for our precious mobile phones, ipods...

...laptops and all the other ultra-sleek electronic kit we crave.

Diamonds, + I believe a few other precious stones in quantity.

[sudopod]

26. Which makes the bizzare not-my-problem field that surrounds DRC all the stranger.

If anything, they're ripe for the picking, considering that there's nothing remotely resembling a legitimate government to be found.

It's sad that the developed world is so bloody cynical that it won't lift a finger to help anyone unless it is in our interests.

[Mimosa]

28. I wish France would invade us and set up national health care

And I'd be the happiest collaborator if they'd impose their cuisine upon the US. Most Americans don't know how to eat well.

Seriously, who has the resources to set up occupying forces in every troubled country in the world and tell them how to live 'right'? How many times have countries responded to invasions with gratitude?

[Ignis]

47. Plus, can you imagine the change to "Government Cheese?"

:D

[Paradoxical]

25. It's because we really don't care about poor black nations.

Helping them would require sincere and committed troop forces. We would likely spend years there.

And we are only willing to spend years stabilizing a nation if they have oil or rare minerals.

[PVnRT]

27. It's a tragedy, and it is tragic that there aren't another 25,000 blue helmets in country

going after assholes like the Lord's Resistance Army and others committing these atrocities.

[sudopod]

29. Kick nt

[Catherina]

30. It's beyond sad. I've made threads here about the suffering in the Congo

at Western hands for their resources. I wondered what kind of people would unrec them. Now I know. Anything to keep Americans in the dark.

Rec'd

[Snoutport]

32. eye opening

oh man... how do we stop all of it?

[uppityperson]

33. k&r for non-sexy deaths of thousands.

I hope I made sense here. Not top of the news but very sad and shocking.

[sudopod]

39. Why doesn't anyone care? :( nt

[WatsonT]

35. Well you see we can't afford to go saving oppressed people all over the world

we need to oil very hard to decide which oil has the most deserving oil of being liberated from their oil.

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. Because the Lefties here would support 40,000 US troops in the DRC?

Maybe 50,000?

There is a standing UN force in DRC, carrying out more than 10 years of unanimous UN Security Council resolutions. Is it woefully understaffed and financed? Of course it is. They need 60,000 troops at least, and a 10 year commitment probably in the range of many tens of billions.

But on this board I see people up in arms about any foreign spending for UN Security Council, so that's a non-starter, right? By the way, for those who complain about all that money going to humanitarian causes, The Obama administration requested $177 million for DRC in Fiscal Year 2009, and provided $9.1 million in support of the peace-keeping effort under the UN Resolution. The United States has also been heavily involved in negotiations between parties in the DRC. You might even remember Secretary Clinton's trip to the DRC in 2009.

The notion that the US government has "forgotten" about DRC is pure nonsense invented as a supposed contradiction "gotcha." It's truly disappointing to see otherwise serious DUers descending into such petty and pathetic games to win Internet arguments, and using real tragedies as their discussion board ammunition. Despicable, yes, but mostly just sad and disappointing.

[sudopod]

37. We give how many billion dollars a year to Israel?

We spend hundreds of billions on the war budget. The difference between DoD budget and this proposed funding number you found after some Googling is a factor of a thousand. That's chicken feed and you know it, especially considering the size of the disaster happening in that region.

All of that is beside the point of the OP, making your response so political is a distraction. The OP wasn't specifically talking about the government or the President, but everyone in the entire country from the bottom to the top. We are blind to that part of the world, not just the DRC, though it is a particularly tragic example.

No doubt our political class will one day rend their shirts and cry Never Again, then ask for a donation to their campaign.

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. It is an absolute disgrace how the West has dealt with DRC

There's no doubt about that. Yes, chicken scratch for sure. If you find me even a shred of political will for more military involvement and the amount of money needed, then we'd be somewhere. As it stands, if you broadcast on the evening news that Obama requested almost $200 million in aid for DRC, there would be revolts in the streets, many stocked by the same people here screaming "We can't afford it!" day and night since Friday. (Notwithstanding that the Bush admin actually requested and got tens of millions MORE for DRC than the Obama Admin!)

So, the OP is making a general point, to be sure, but it's also the usual nonsensical gotcha point deployed endlessly, and mostly uncompellingly: if we do X here, why don't we do X there???? It's a piddling game to play, and shocking given the subject matter, and the fact that it is simply a game for the OP.

[sudopod]

43. It isn't about "scoring a point"

If pointing out the obvious is a "gotcha", then all I can do is throw my hands up in the air and ask "How else should I put it?" This thread was not intended to be part of the continuing drama-fest between those who love the President and those who can't stand him. I hate how so many people, people who are supposed to be the good guys, must view the whole universe through that filter.

I also don't believe there would be protests about sending aid if people knew what was going on. The problem, as with so many other things in the world, isn't antipathy, it's apathy. In my experience, people are genuinely horrified when they discover that a tragedy like this is taking place. However, unless you rub their face in it then they can't be arsed to find out anything on their own. I desperately wish there was a way to make people stand up and take notice of the state of their fellow man.

I guess I wanted to see if this view of things is accurate, and so far it seems that most people's experiences are the same.

[sudopod]

38. One more thing,

Simply having people draw attention the problem regularly would help, and might shame the more prosperous countries in the region (and their former Western overlords) to do something, even if it is limited to sheltering more refugees in a safe place.

[blindpig]

42. The capitalists are making a killing(literally)

all is going swimmingly, there is no need for government interference.

Remove the extractive transnationals and their money from the scene and watch how fast the 'rebel armies' melt into the forest.

[sudopod]

45. That's part of it.

But is also largely a campaign of a brutal race war. The really sick thing is that these "races", and the hatred that is at the root of the "genocide", is that the distinctions between the Hutu and the Tutsi have no true historical basis. They are largely the invention of the Belgians who ruled the place with such barbarity that it has never recovered.

From the "Tutsi" Wikipedia article.

"When the Belgian colonists conducted censuses, they wanted to identify the peoples throughout Rwanda-Burundi according to a simple classification scheme. They defined "Tutsi" as anyone owning more than ten cows (a sign of wealth) or with the physical feature of a longer nose, commonly associated with the Tutsi. The Europeans noticed that some Rwandans had noses they thought characteristic of their people, so they created historical and racial theories to explain why some Africans inherited such features. Early 20th-century Europeans believed the physical feature meant that some of the Tutsi had Caucasian or European ancestry, perhaps by migrations from Ethiopia, what was called the Hamitic Theory. According to their racially based ideas, they thought the Tutui were a "superior" people of a primarily Horn African and/or North African ancestry; descent from Arabs of the Middle East was also suggested. In addition, some Tutsi believed they were descended from the ancient Israelites and had a mystical connection to Israel.<2> The Europeans considered the majority Hutu to be characteristic Bantu people of Central African and Sub-Saharan origin.

Beginning about 1880, Catholic missionaries arrived in the African Great Lakes region. Later, when German forces occupied the area during World War I, the conflict and efforts for Catholic conversion became more pronounced. As the Tutsi resisted conversion, the missionaries found success only among the Hutu. In an effort to reward conversion, the colonial government confiscated traditionally Tutsi land and reassigned it to Hutu tribes, igniting a conflict that has lasted into the 21st century.<3>"

<3> Berg, Irwin M.. "Jews in Central Africa". Kulanu Highlights. Retrieved 2010-03-17.

[blindpig]

48. And even that the residue of previous capitalist machinations.

Yet if the cash and bullets are cut off their hate will grow cold.

It's funny how 'ancient hatreds' only show their head when someone comes around stirring up shit looking to profit thereby.

[BlueIris]

46. But, but intervening in Congo would screw up our access to coltan!

Don't you love your cell phone?