The actual facts in Japan are evidence enough of the dangers

[MineralMan]

of using nuclear power to generate electricity. New facts are being revealed as they are discovered. Those opposed to nuclear power generation, like I am, have everything needed to make the point that nuclear power is unsafe. There is no need to manufacture facts, speculate, or use scare tactics based on non-factual information to make the point.

One of the worst mistakes that advocates of shutting down the nuclear power industry make is to inflate the risks in order to make their point. Every time this is done, the inflated information is brought out to diminish the real risks. It's a strategy that fails every time when working against an industry.

Sometimes such inflation is done accidentally, or through misunderstanding. Sometimes, it is done by people who have no expertise. Other times, however, inflating facts to magnify the real risks is done by advocates who know better. It is those situations that later come back to haunt progress toward eliminating the industry. Advocates for the industry point to the inflated, incorrect, and speculative information and use that to damage the efforts of opponents.

Do we really need speculative exaggerations to make this disaster in Japan appear worse than it is? It's bad enough on its own, and with the facts as they are presented, as they are actually found. When those who are not on the scene, not fully informed, and often not even qualified, stretch the truth, exaggerate the risks, and use misinformation to ramp up their campaign, they cause more harm than good.

The Japanese nuclear power disaster is bad enough already. It's very effectively making the point many of us have been trying to make for decades. It needs no exaggeration. It needs no stretched data. It needs no speculation. It is more than bad enough already.

Nuclear power generation is not safe. It has never been safe, and it cannot be made to be safe. Let's use the actual facts as they actually exist to make that point. We don't need more than what is actually happening. It's plenty bad enough.

[damntexdem]

1. Predicted dangers, lack of oversight, and use of questionable designs.

And the answer is not avoidance of predicted dangers, existence of better oversight, and embracing better designs, because even those are not good enough when it comes to the risks of nuclear power.

[marions ghost]

2. bottom line is

No strategy has worked against the Nuclear Industry. The advocates against it are not the ones making big "mistakes." :eyes:

What is a mistake is that it took THIS extreme nightmare scenario to make the point. A very stupid way to learn a hard lesson. Sorry, but regardless of the words, the finger pointing is going in the right direction--to those who created this catastrophe. It is they who will be blamed for perpetrating it in the future, not those who have no political power but still did all they could to try to prevent it.

Anyway, how can what people are saying in the face of it be making it any worse? Not a time to tell people to shut up IMO. Correct them, OK but don't muzzle them. Really, what is the point? :shrug:

[MineralMan]

3. It's beyond my capabilities to shut anyone up. Still, I do wish

that those opposed to nuclear power would try to avoid statements that can be later refuted and used against them. I expect misinformation from the supporters of nuclear power, but when the opponents make unfactual statements, it works directly against their goals. Things are difficult enough, as it is.

Frankly, I'm not optimistic that the Fukushima incident will prevent the construction of new power plants, and especially will not cause the de-commissioning of current ones. Not optimistic at all. We have now become so dependent of them in many places, that I don't foresee that ending.

It's depressing.

[marions ghost]

4. I just don't think

there's a way to maintain the perfect degree of accuracy on this issue. The facts are complex and are easily refuted. I'm sure you see that the industry has held all the cards, up til now anyway. So if the opponents of nuke power make "unfactual statements," it really doesn't matter--the Nuclear Industry will always refute & suppress them. The debate is not based on truth--it's just another spin opportunity for the dominant entity. But it doesn't really make the odds worse for those opposing nuclear power. The DISCUSSION--the wake up call--is what's needed and that's all good.

At this point, post Fukushima, I think anyone is qualified to speak out against it, even if you can hardly put two nuclear factoids together. I mean how many reactors should you put on an active earthquake fault in a tsunami zone...? let's see
:dilemma: is the answer, "none?"

Right now the jury's out as yet on this question of new construction or decommissioning. You'll have a lot of NIMBYs come out of the woodwork, and some of them might even have some clout. Remains to be seen. No the industry certainly won't "do the right thing." There will be some among the PTB who are beginning to see the light...ie. have something of a conscience left, care about their grandchildren, that sort of thing. Why should it be up to environmentalists to battle the Nuclear Industry? Everybody lives downwind. Maybe instead of being hyper sensitive--we should yell as loudly as possible (no mater how correctly) and take the burden off the small band of anti-nuke advocates who have been carrying the torch for so long. ya think?
:think:

[MineralMan]

5. Having been part of the intervening group when Diablo Canyon

was in the design and pre-construction phase, the argument against building in an active seismic zone was one of our primary issues. The plant was built anyhow. Trust me. I'm not on the side of the nuclear power generation industry. I have never been on that side.

However, you have to understand that I also saw enormous amounts of misinformation and panicky thinking from people who were opposed to the construction of that plant. It worked against our opposition, and brought justifiable ridicule on that opposition. You would not have believed the nonsense that came out of the fringe of that opposition. It made our serious efforts a laughingstock. It pretty much ended any possibility, however small, that we had of stopping the project.

So, the end result is that Diablo Canyon is sitting right on top of an active earthquake fault. Isn't that wonderful. In part, that's because P.G. & E. exercise more power than it should have had. It's also partly because people in opposition often used bogus arguments and woo to fight the plant and made many in the public laugh at the opposition. I can't even tell you how bad it was. We lost the battle, in part because of how ridiculous some of the arguments against that plant were. So, sorry. I insist on accuracy from both sides. I've seen what happens when one side presents nonsense as evidence.

[marions ghost]

6. with all due respect

maybe you are having too many flashbacks? I haven't seen too much crazed fringe thinking at all around this event--what scares me more is the blind passivity and willful ignorance. Maybe you are seeing evidence of people using bogus arguments, but I am not. If so, tell.

What I'm saying is that NO amount of clear-headed logic will sway industrial juggernauts determined to have their way--ruthless, competitive gangs who will use and abuse the system any way they can to get what they want. We pigs at the end of the power line are not responsible.

So maybe you have residual guilt over the efforts of the past failing? There was likely NOTHING that anti-nuclear people could have done to really stop it at that time. But they/you took a stand and that is admirable. So what if people laughed. You did the best you could, and beyond debates about accuracy, you were still RIGHT. What is going on in Japan is proving it beyond all doubt to the average person. I don't think we have to worry about the message here--unfortunately this disaster speaks for itself--an UN acceptable situation.

The lies about safe nuclear power are being stripped away. People do not have to have all their facts straight to know that-- what Japan is going through, and what we are all going through with it, is just plain crap. Not worth it, and never was. It was hyped and sold, the dangers minimized. Every country in the world who went whole hog into this industry has got to look at what they have done. Now THERE's some guilt.

[BeFree]

7. People are scared

The situation takes years and years to grok.

People were rightly freaked out then and now everybody is freaking about nukes.

Whenever I was asked about outside people making false claims, I'd just remind the person asking to consider that the subject was almost unknowable, and that the people had a right to speak and it was incumbent upon the problem maker to respond with wisdom and reason. Which was real hard for them to do!

That would make them quit complaining about regular people and get back to fixing the damn problem.

[marions ghost]

8. "the subject is almost unknowable"

right.:thumbsup:

We don't all have to argue like lawyers to know what's right & what's just plain tragically wrong.

While I try hard to get my own facts straight, I don't worry about other people who are just going more on their gut (or heart--whatever you want to call that intuitive knowing that is beyond logic).

When people speak or act out of emotion & they are wrong I just correct them and move on. Why take responsibility. We can't all understand or learn things the same way. We can't all think like lawyers. Some people are just never going to get their facts straight, but they are still dead right. That's the big picture.

[BrookBrew]

9. The Register has a great story on this non story. The FEAR

is the story. More people died from lightning strike since this began. The actual impact from this has been well anticlimactic.. For those who oppose nuclear energy it is a red cloth to wave. For those who promote it, an obsticale to overcome.

For those who do math, it changes nothing. There is a massive demand for power just in NYC area that could never be met with renewable energy.

This is not a "position" publication, they generally cover IT/ Science stories.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/22/fukushima_tuesday_2/

[marions ghost]

10. Hello Kitty

:wow:


This articles calls this "a minor incident" -- :banghead::banghead: :banghead:

Suggest that people read this entire article just to see Industry spin in one of the most biased articles on the Japan situation so far...I don't know what the Register is, but they are Nuke Industry mouthpieces.

This "non story" is about a lot more than "math" --and as for that old saw, "more people die from lightning strikes..." excuse me while I :rofl:

[BrookBrew]

11. Like I said. If you didn't like nuke before, its a new tool in the toolbox

if you were pro, its now a hurtle to jump. In reality nothing changed, nations will continue to build them because they can not rely on single sources of energy. You still cant run NYC on wind or solar and that leaves burning dinos or splitting atoms.

The Register has no connection to the nuclear industry. But in the end of the day 10,000 people are dead and no one has yet died of radiation exposure. I believe they are actually looking at it from a death and human health impact, not a pro or anti spin pov.

Not one person dead yet from radionuclides. Hey did you know you can visit hiroshima, people live there now, and lived there in 1947.

[marions ghost]

12. OOOH No, Sorry...Industry whitewash...UK style

All you have to do is look at the titles of articles this guy Lewis Page has written since the beginning of Fukushima crisis:

FOR EXAMPLE--this quote--from below: "The unfolding Fukushima story has enormously strengthened the case for advanced nations – including Japan – to build more …"

:puke: He's on somebody's payroll....

:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown::thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

----------------------------
http://search.theregister.co.uk/?author=Lewis%20Page

SUMMARIES OF HIS RECENT ARTICLES:

Fukushima's toxic legacy: Ignorance and fear
Hysteria rages unchecked as minor incident winds down
By Lewis Page • Tuesday 22 Mar 2011 13:49

Events at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear powerplant in Japan continue to unfold, with workers there steadily restoring redundancy and containment measures across the site. It remains highly unlikely that the workers themselves will suffer any measurable health consequences from radiation, and – continued media scaremongering …

Fukushima: Situation improving all the time
Food, water samples OK, Hyper Rescue Super Pump in action
By Lewis Page • Monday 21 Mar 2011 12:03

Events at the quake- and tsunami-stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear powerplant in Japan went well at the weekend, with two reactors there successfully brought into cold shutdown under off-site power, power lines hooked up to other cores being cooled using seawater and some progress in refilling spent-fuel storage pools. Initial … X-51 hypersonic scramjet test bird ready for second flight

Fukushima one week on: Situation 'stable', says IAEA
Shameful media panic very slowly begins to subside
By Lewis Page • Friday 18 Mar 2011 12:56

The situation at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear powerplant in Japan, badly damaged during the extremely severe earthquake and tsunami there a week ago, continues to stabilise. It is becoming more probable by the day that public health consequences will be zero and radiation health effects among workers at the site will be so …

Fukushima on Thursday: Prospects starting to look good
'Worst probably over' says Australian prof
By Lewis Page • Thursday 17 Mar 2011 13:48

The story of the quake- and tsunami-stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear powerplant continues to unfold, with reports suggesting that the situation with respect to the three damaged reactors at the plant may soon be stabilised without serious consequences. The focus of attention has now moved to problems at a pool used to keep

Fukushima situation as of Wednesday
Situation worsens - still no cause for alarm
By Lewis Page • Wednesday 16 Mar 2011 14:14

The situation at the Fukushima Daiichi powerplant has worsened significantly as it becomes clear that one and possibly two reactors there have suffered a breach in primary containment, making the incident definitely the second worst nuclear accident yet seen. Nonetheless its human consequences seem certain to remain …

Fukushima update: No chance cooling fuel can breach vessels
Still nothing to get in a flap about
By Lewis Page • Tuesday 15 Mar 2011 12:25

The story of the three quake- and tsunami-hit reactors at Japan's Fukushima plant continues, with indications that one of the three worst-hit reactors has sustained further damage. A fire also broke out at another reactor, shut down at the time of the quake and not previously thought to be a problem, but this has now been put …

Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now!
Analysis Quake + tsunami = 1 minor radiation dose so far
By Lewis Page • Monday 14 Mar 2011 13:58

Japan's nuclear powerplants have performed magnificently in the face of a disaster hugely greater than they were designed to withstand, remaining entirely safe throughout and sustaining only minor damage. The unfolding Fukushima story has enormously strengthened the case for advanced nations – including Japan – to build more …

[BrookBrew]

13. Really. Do you know what The Reg is?

its an IT publication. So again , the author is attacked.

Can you tell me how many deaths are now attributed to the reactor event?

Do you have any proof that he is on a "payroll" or is that just slander?

[marions ghost]

14. I don't care what The Reg is

I can see for myself what Lewis writes in these article summaries. If you want to believe that mind-boggling load of pollyanna BS he spews about Fukushima, on a daily basis it seems, go right ahead. Maybe you need to Believe & who am I to question your Beliefs. But anyway, thanks for pointing these articles out as an excellent example of the ravings of a classic spin doctor, likely paid well to do it, but he might just be a crackpot too. :rofl: Seriously thanks.

[BrookBrew]

15. Sure, be sure to post the names of the people killed by radiation

when you get a minute.. I believe the facts, not the hype, fear, and drama. This has reached the "aids from mosquitoes" level of fear.

[marions ghost]

17. Having NO fear

in the case of what we are witnessing at Fukushima is pathological, IMO. :shrug:

[BrookBrew]

19. No its rational. Radiation can be measured, hysteria is subjective

once this is all done the story will still be the 10,000 dead people and the destroyed areas of Japan. Unless it blows its core sky high, the radiation is not the real event.

To those with an agenda it is quite valuable.

[marions ghost]

22. "the radiation is not the real event"

Uh OK....tell that to the people impacted by earthquake, tsunami and ALSO radiation...

They have been betrayed by the industry and by the government. Exactly the way you would feel if it happened in your backyard.

[BrookBrew]

29. Yep, I would expect them (insurance/ gvt) to pay for my loss

of property. I would expect to be compensated if exposed to a medically relevant amount of radiation. I would expect free treatment for any illness related to that.

However unless a person was working in the building how would they be getting the minimum exposures? People are running around japan with dosimeters and Geiger counters.

Its not the USSR. I would feel betrayed if I was not compensated for my ACTUAL loss, not my hysterical feelings.

Radiation was not invented last week, there is lots of science around exposure.

[Urban Prairie]

16. Chernobyl Cleanup Survivor's Message for Japan: 'Run Away as Quickly as Possible'

"I had no idea and never knew the true scope until much later. It was all covered in secrecy. I went there as a professional because I was told to -- but if I was asked to liquidate such an accident today, I'd never agree. The sacrifices the Fukushima workers are making are too high because the nuclear industry was developed in such a way that the executives don't hold themselves accountable to the human beings who have to clean up a disaster. It's like nuclear slavery."

~snip~

"It's why the nuclear industry is dangerous. They want to deny the dangers. They kept changing the law about what benefits we'd get because if they admitted how much we were affected, it would look bad for the industry. Now we hardly get any benefits."


http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/22/chernobyl-cleanup-survivors-message-for-japan-run-away-as-qui/

[BrookBrew]

18. Liquidators were conscripts and were ordered to

walk into an exposed reactor core under state secrecy. No matter how much people want this to be Chernobyl it isn't. When it blows its core sky high, then there is a discussion.

Until then there are actual readings on the ground and no state secrecy. If people die from radiation poisoning that will be pretty public.

[marions ghost]

20. Oh my god

What a horrific story. Her face tells it all....

excerpt:

"How much radiation were you subjected to?

We were never told. We wore dosimeters which measured radiation and we submitted them to the bosses, but they never gave us the results."

[BrookBrew]

21. That would be the Soviet Army and the USSR

I would say Japan is not quite the same government.

[U4ikLefty]

23. Enjoy your stay.

[BrookBrew]

25. Oh is Nuclear Energy a restricted topic? I mean if the rules

prohibit posting outside a accepted position I will respect that.

If not, I will be happy to post such things as a request for the names of a single person killed by radiation in Japan, or a single person suffering from acute radiation poisoning. The latter being possible at the complex.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marions ghost]

24. The trusting people of Fukushima (& beyond)

have been sacrificed just as the people were in Russia. They have become victims of the absurd risk of putting a large bunch of nukes right on a major earthquake fault. The stupidity and callousness of that decision rests on the Nuclear Industry and the government of Japan. It could happen here too.

:hi:

[BrookBrew]

26. Sure and the airborne ebola monkey virus could get loose too..

there is yet to be one dead person from radiation as of the time of this post.

Lots of things can happen, the odds they will are called risk. People die in coal mines to keep the lights on so we can post.

So in two weeks lets revisit. My bet is still on the 10,000 to 0 ratio of death caused by the tsunami? care to place a wager?

[marions ghost]

27. the airborne ebola monkey

has already gotten loose. Cya :hi:

[Urban Prairie]

28. Nonetheless as we have seen from TEPCO's checkered history involving falsifying data

I would take ANY government and industry reassurances, regardless of their ideology and culture, with a HUGE grain of salt, even here in the US, and I am still quite angry about how Katrina and the gusher in the GOM were/are still being handled, and the jury obviously will be out for years, if not decades about the true extent of ecological, marine animal, and environmental harm that has been done, and from the recent events in the GOM, probably continuing harm, including that which has and may eventually affect the health of those who live within 50 miles of it.

"The company at the center of a nuclear reactor crisis following the biggest earthquake in Japan's recorded history has had a rocky past in an industry plagued by scandal."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/12/us-japan-nuclear-operator-idUSTRE72B1B420110312

[marions ghost]

30. agree

recent history gives me no confidence whatsoever in the US government's ability to protect people or the environment in such disasters.

[BrookBrew]

31. It would be scientifically reasonable to compare the impact

of radiation releases to dumped reactor cores by the USSR, and other criticality events that are on record from Manhattan forward involving people exposed to ionizing radiation..

Radiation is not new technology. Unless they bribed god not to send a tsunami there is not much they could have done to prevent this situation.

I am sure some will attribute everything for the next 100 years to this, because they want to.

Looking at former Soviet naval stations surrounding waters (with dumped reactors) may be a reasonable reaction.

Of course you could look at the Ukraine, a real radiological disaster, for data on a fractional scale.

[Urban Prairie]

34. " I am sure some will attribute everything for the next 100 years to this, because they want to"

No doubt some might, depending upon the potential degree of severity (or not) from radiation exposure stemming from the eventual outcome of this disaster, but it is obviously still way too early to make an accurate assessment yet. There may be some, many, or most within a certain range of these reactors whose health MIGHT suffer from it sooner or later, like those 9/11 responders who were told that the air was safe to breathe, when it obviously wasn't...

[BrookBrew]

35. There is a reasonable response..

people die in coal mines so we can post here. Over 40 last year. The servers, networks, and pc's run on energy, generation requires sacrifice.

If people were exposed radiation it is measurable in the body (over its half lives in urine, hair, etc) , this can be tested for in numerous ways. The environment can be tested. This is established science.

If people are exposed they can and will be tested medically. The people working there are obviously most at risk.

So yeah, it is a serious thing. It should be watched. Are all the fish in the ocean now poisoned and all of japan a radiological disaster, no.

Some of this response is truly insane.

[Urban Prairie]

36. Whose responses?

In this thread? forum? website? other sites? in the media? If the last two, there of course will be "insane" opinions and predictions, and there always will be extreme responses from both pro and anti-nuke sides.

I consider nuclear power to be too dangerous for humans to use, for one simple reason, and that is because it can be used profitably, and as long as that is the case there will always be the inherent danger present of its abuse or misuse, which has and can result in radiation-related deaths and illnesses, and obviously the potential for widespread contamination of the environment as well, possibly lasting for centuries.

[BrookBrew]

37. That profit concern

applies to cars (ford came very close to being charged with murder), mining operations, and pretty much everything not run by the state. Medicare is defrauded regularly.

There have been 0 civilian nuclear power deaths in the US. 0 in the US Navy's fleet of reactors (not for profit).

Nuclear power has a place it should be regulated heavily but to think it could jest be turned off and replaced with renewable (non breeder reactors, not that renewable) is not reasonable.

I have seen some pretty odd posts about Japan here. All the fish in the pacific are now unsafe to eat, seems to be popular.

It is just reactionary. I still believe that the 10,000 dead people will far out shadow the nuclear event. They will close the plant and build new ones.

[ROFF]

32. MineralMan, I respect your position

and I wish that it could be implemented, but we have to be practical. Let us assume that a solar generation system is installed. This system would have to generate 100% of the load.

A second system (say wind) would have to replace solar for the load at night. So now we are at 200%

What do we do at night when there is no wind? Invent something else. What that might be? Hamsters in wheels?

So now we are at 300%. The question is "Are you as a consumer willing to pay for 3 separate generation systems?'

Because as we all know, the customer pays the bill in the end.

Cost will drive the answer in the end. I suspect that the public will put up with some risk in order to drive the cost down.

[Zorra]

33. Great post. The facts speak for themselves. nt

[bettyellen]

39. this OP has become a lightening rod for pro nuke spammers....