Sometimes I think my German friends were right

[Taverner]

A long while back I was good friends with some German volunteers whom I worked with in the Peace Corps

They were great people and were fairly liberal

Once we got into an argument tho, over the USA being a war-monger. At the time I was still coming off that Clinton-high. "Don't...stop...thinking about tomorrow..." and what not. So naturally I defended my country with the same kinds of hollow arguments I'm seeing here: "Sadaam Hussein is a brutal dictator...we're spreading Democracy...etc"

You see at that time, we were engaged in a 'war lite' with Iraq. And Somalia hadn't turned out too well.

But now I'm thinking they were right, and I was wrong

America IS a war-monger country. Think about it: We've had a war going on consistently since Pearl Harbor was bombed (and yes, I can back this up) Defense has taken the lion's share of our budget (and continues to grow) Defense Contractors have way more influence over our political system than any other business, labor union or Mr. Moneybags.

And if there is one thing the USA is known for, its our war. We kill indiscriminately. We have removed the killer from the killed so far that we can destroy a whole city right from an AC building in DC.

And it seems every single misadventure we've been in has always had atrocities on our hands, whether Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or even Korea.

So yes - we are the greatest at something. Not our government, not our food, not our people and not even our businesses. We're #1 at killing people. And we're #1 at denial.

[FiveGoodMen]

1. Agreed.

[Angry Dragon]

2. We create the terrorists that we then have to fight

A circle knows no end.............

[CrossChris]

6. A very profitable one.

Yeah, I don't see anyone shutting down that gravy train anytime soon.

[DCKit]

8. Sure does keep the money flowing, though. nt

[sad sally]

125. How true...

Groups that profit from war are military contractors like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and General Dynamics, to name a few. Old military material has to be discarded due to age or is lost due to fighting and new and different military material is needed by the military to maintain strategic advantages over the military technologies of foreign nations which are hostile or may become hostile.

#1 Today the U.S. military has over 700 bases (some say it is actually over 1000 bases) in 130 different countries around the globe. It is estimated that it costs about $100 billion a year to maintain these bases.

#2 The U.S. military budget for 2010 was $693 billion.

#3 However, when you throw in all "off budget" items and other categories of "defense" spending not covered in the Pentagon budget you get a grand total of somewhere between $1.01 and $1.35 trillion spent on national defense in 2010.

#4 The truth is that U.S. military spending is greater than the military spending of China, Russia, Japan, India, and the rest of NATO combined.

#5 Total U.S. military spending makes up approximately 44 percent of all the military spending on the entire globe.

#6 The Pentagon currently gobbles up 56 percent of all discretionary spending by the federal government.

#7 Together, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan cost more than $150 billion a year.

#8 Up to this point, it is estimated that the U.S. government has spent over 373 billion dollars on the war in Afghanistan.

#9 Up to this point, it is estimated the the U.S. government has spent over 745 billion dollars on the war in Iraq.

#10 Since 2001, the total cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan breaks down to $3,644 for every man, woman and child in the United States.

#11 The total price tag for each F-22 fighter jet is approximately $350 million.

#12 The Sustainable Defense Task Force has produced a report which shows that the U.S. could easily slash a trillion dollars from the defense budget over the next ten years.

[Enthusiast]

44. That is the very point

of creating terrorists. There is no longer a Soviet boogie man so the MIC had to create a reasonable facsimile.

[Ricochet21]

118. Amen

[spooked911]

3. No doubt-- we have sick people running this country

they are out of control and we need to really start protesting this madness.

[Catherina]

4. Rec'd n/t

[Octafish]

5. Empire for the Few, the Proud, the Have-More Elite Sonsuvbitches.

Thank you, Taverner, for breaking out of the informational headshell created by your family, friends, schools, media, and most everybody else telling you every day of your life and seeing what's so, isn't -- and then putting it into words.

[Solomon]

63. Psst. And it's not our empire.

America is just the military arm of the secret world government. London is the financial arm.


Hey 'Fish :hi:

[alsame]

7. I was born during Viet Nam and I think it's safe to say that

this country has been involved in wars (declared or covert) for most, if not all, of my entire life.

[Taverner]

10. Yep - even during Carter we fought in El Salvador

and some argue Honduras and Guatemala

[a la izquierda]

21. Um, yeah...

we CAUSED Guatemala. And we used Honduras for plausible deniability.

[Taverner]

22. Pretty much

[Octafish]

31. Carter gave us -- er, I mean -- the Soviets, Afghanistan and the Mujahedin.

It was upon the recommendation of national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski, of Trilateral Commission fame.

[CoffeeCat]

102. I suspect that these war decisions...

...are out of the hands of the President--unless that President is a neocon.

I think the neocon contingent has had their talons around our government, and have for some time. Only
in the past decade, has it become more obvious that the war machine has a mind of its own.

These people can and do circumvent the President.

[jwirr]

111. I was born during WWII and I can safely say the same thing if we

count the cold war.

I love history but what we are taught is school is sickening - our history books are mostly about wars and all of them are glorified. We are taught this "war mongering" from childhood.

[hifiguy]

9. We are a war-mongering country

because we are run by greedheads, and not just those in the MIC. The oil companies and vampire squid of international finance demand access to and dominance over every living thing in the world. Their ideal world is where .05% of the population holds every last chip (save for that needed to pay their retainers and mercenaries) and the rest of the populace lives in a hell that makes feudalism look like the suburb Ward and June Cleaver lived in.

[KamaAina]

11. We've had a war going on consistently since Bunker Hill was attacked

In all of American history there has been ONE year in which we were not at war. And it was in the 19th century. :eyes:

[Taverner]

14. Very Good Point

[anneboleyn]

135. Amen. I was just reading about the decades of the "Indian Wars" following the Civil War

We never stop fighting against someone, especially when they have resources we want (there's gold in them Black Hills!!!) and we decide we can kill them off with our military forces.

[DirkGently]

12. Always seems to be a "reason" to intervene. Always seems to be in a strategic or oil rich location.

[mimitabby]

13. yeah, an Italian friend told me:

"Almost every president you have ever had had his own war" I started to argue, but the guy was right.

[Dappleganger]

15. Wargasm is addicting...

especially to those who are making billions off of it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

Have you read John Perkins' "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man?"

If NOT, you SHOULD. Your German friends were correct. We don't do just military wars. We do economic wars too. The book will PISS YOU OFF.

[stockholmer]

58. +1000,and this is international in scope,the USA,run by the banksters,plays the role of enforcer

of the systemically-designed profit matrix

[Jackpine Radical]

85. After Perkins, Klein's Shock Doctrine.

Required reading for anyone in denial about the American Empire.

[russspeakeasy]

88. I thought I was the only one who read it.

 "Pissed Off" ain't even close. 

[me b zola]

122. I think it was a best-seller (NYT)

Yes, it really pulls the curtain back.

[Vinnie From Indy]

16. "And if there is one thing the USA is known for, its our war. "

Hyperbolic nonsense! I do not subscribe to the notion that the US is evil incarnate. I actually do not disagree with much of what you write, but statements like this severely damage the credibility of the writer IMHO.

In fact, I would offer that the United States has brought the world many great things. One of those is the IDEA of individual liberty and a nation ruled by laws not men. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that there is a gargantuan difference between these ideas in theory and what we have been able to achieve in practice, but that does not diminish the value of the IDEAS.

I would also offer, among other things, that the US has produced some great music.

[in_cog_ni_to]

18. "the IDEA of individual liberty and a nation ruled by laws not men." seriously...

they need to learn the meaning of that phrase.

[intaglio]

41. Check out the Wiki page I've linked below

Up to 1975 it is compiled on the records of a House committee.

alternatively you could check AlterNet They also reference "Overthrow" by Kinzer.

[AlbertCat]

95. One of those is the IDEA of individual liberty and a nation ruled by laws not men.

Over 200 years ago. (and it came with a war) Anything more recent?


And EVERY civilization that ever was has created some good music... and lots of bad.


And no one said we were "evil incarnate".
Talk about hyperbolic nonsense!

[JDPriestly]

117. More recently: the idea of equal rights

including the equal right to a jury trial, to be represented by counsel in a criminal trial, etc.

With the Reagan era we began to lose our way, but I feel certain that we will find our path to justice and liberty again.

Advertising is the means through which a few greedy, nasty people control the American consumers and voters. Advertising exists because the advertisers have the money to pay for it.

Once the greedy, nasty people controlling American consumers and voters have impoverished everyone but themselves to the point that they no longer have any consumers, they will stop advertising.

Who knows what will happen then, but I think it will be a great improvement.

You can help speed the end of advertising by turning off your television and watching on the internet only those programs that you really want to see. You can also watch newspaper and magazine subscriptions. Choose the ones you want to support and drop your other subscriptions.

[LiberalLovinLug]

127. Starting wars IS a major definition of your nation

From up here in Canada, my whole life, I have watched the USA being engaged in some kind of conflict. And during that time, none of those wars were a result from an "imminent" threat to your nation.

You spend over half of your GDP on defense. More than the rest of the world combined. Its hard to even imagine what kind of nation the USA could be if they used even half that money in the last decade towards alternate energy, education or healthcare for its citizens. So while the arms dealers are dancing on piles of money, you've screwed yourself royally. Those arms dealers and their investors rely on more wars to get rid of the old stock to make room for their new improved death machines to sell to the American taxpayer.

And perhaps more insidious is that this huge huge industry employs many many American workers, so it would be political suicide to demand cuts. It is a monster feeding on its own children. And it only gets bigger and stronger with each new feast. It would take some new breed of politician that has a great gift of persuasion, principle, and oratory skills to get through this almost criminal situation in your country. So much hope the world put in your latest President that they even gave him a preeminent Nobel Peace Prize. You are continually regarded as the "richest nation on Earth" but when you throw away over half of your earnings you are throwing away the opportunity to be able to make a difference in citizens quality of life that they have earned.

Its sad watching it all go down from here. Because yes we admire those principles of "individual liberty" and "a nation ruled by laws not men", but you are no longer the bastion of those principles. W Bush decimated that perception, and your new President seems content to endorse this new Orwellian state of affairs, where executives, whether political or corporate, are above the law, and the average citizen is open to wiretapping and arrest without warrant and lack of habeus corpus.

Its scary watching all this unfold from up here because if a Democrat in office cannot, or will not, stop this mad march what happens when, inevitably, a Republican gets back in charge. *shudder* It affects us here because our right wing politicians get strength and courage from your continual shift to the dark side.

[havbrush]

129. Not Hyperbolic Nonsense

Poor Vinnie from Indy still hasn't seen through the grade school, middle school and high school propaganda that's preached in America about how we are beacons of liberty and justice and stand for peace and democracy for all. It's really never been true (ask black Americans how they feel about their enslaved ancestors' liberty and justice). Or ask native Americans how they feel about peace, justice and treaty-breaking the bluecoats forcibly bought to them along with their reservation life. And then there are all these countries that we've been involved in war in over the last half century or so: Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Lebanon, Grenada, Iraq, Panama, Colombia, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan again, and Iraq again. And that doesn't include our early military adventures like deposing the monarchy and taking over Hawaii in the late 1890s to back Samuel Dole's powerplay for expanding his pineapple plantations, and then the Teddy Roosevelt/Rough Rider excursion into Cuba (the battleship Maine was conveniently blown up in Havana's habor), which then led to the Spanish-American war which led to troops in the Philipines. We've also intervened in Haiti four times I believe, starting in the early decades of the 20th century on up to deposing Aristede most recently. Try reading "Overthrow" by Kinzer if you're still not convinced of out war mongering history. At some point you have to throw off the blinders, see through the propaganda and begin to understand that it's not about liberty or democracy, it's always about the money. Corporations in many industries that produce war materiels learned a long time ago that their profits can go up ten, twenty, even a thousand-fold when they produce things for war Look at Halliburton and their well known price-gouging. General Smedley Butler from as early as the 1930s, after finally getting wise, wrote about it in his book, "War is a Racket." Butler lays it out that even businesses as innocuous as shoe manufacturers, if they get government contracts for boots, can triple or quadruple their profits. And since we are a corporate-run country (we may as well face that fact now since it's so obvious with the Koch brothers having governors in their pockets and the middle class being decimated with job outsourcing by these very corporations), we are always going to be at war because that's where even money is. The spreading of democracy crap is just that, we've backed too many dictators (Saudi Arabia comes to mind) to espouse that convincingly with a straight face.

[2banon]

147. Only the USA is capable of Ideas..

Not!

I don't see a smiley face or sarcasm coda in your msg, but I'm thinking you don't really hold this patriarchal pov, I hope!

[Desertrose]

17. The facts don't lie...we can make history lie, but the facts.....

not so much.

K & R'd

[bobbolink]

80. You discern no differences at all in the current situation?

None?

[2banon]

148. not yet..

but I'm "hopeful" ..... anything is possible I suppose..

[HughBeaumont]

19. It makes me sad. Always money for killing people, never money for improvement.

We can't get smarter. We can't get better. We can't be more equal. We can't get more progressive instead of right-leaning.

But we sure can murder people like no one's business.

The invasions now are really a product of unbridled capitalism run amok. Someone has to die so someone can become richer. "Surplus population", and all that.

K & R.

[felix_numinous]

20. The MIC grew us into an Empire

that supports itself on the resources and companies it acquires. It feeds upon arms trade, thrives on chaos and instability, and has become a major global presence to be reckoned with. Sometimes I wonder if this empire will ever end, and our country becomes peaceful again.

They have trillions of dollars and are incapable of hearing dissenting voices, the bargaining table has disappeared, there seems to be no discussion--it's straight to the war room.

[Quantess]

37. Oh yes, this empire will end, but it won't be pretty.

USA is going down the toilet because of all these invasions we can't afford.

[ljm2002]

23. No doubt about it...

...and our leaders continue to spread the propaganda to us that we are doing it to spread democracy, and that in reality we are a peace-loving people and a peace-loving nation. All the while we glorify war and violence and the big defense companies profit handsomely off of endless war.

Your German friends are right, tragically right.

[BobbyBoring]

24. There are many that say

WW II pulled us of of the great depression, not the New Deal. While I totally disagree, WW II did do one thing. It proved there was mucho $$ to be making making weapons, uniforms, canteens, jeeps, etc.

Of course, weapons without a target are useless. Ever since WW II we have managed to find countless reasons to wage war with no validity.

We've also found ways to soak the tax payer for even more money. Beetle Bailey used to peel the potatoes for $36.00 a month. Now, Halliburton peels the potatoes for $90.00 per man hr and supplies Cokes for $45.00 a case. The Seabees and Army Corp. used to pave runways, build huts and showers mess halls. Now Halliburton does that too. MPs used to provide security at the pittance they were paid. Now, XE provides security with goons they bill US hundreds of thousands per man.

Halliburton has been in the picture under one name of another in every war starting with Viet Nam.

Can you say war profiteers?

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

38. War Profiteers!

Nice budget breakdown. I visualize a flyer with all the corporations and their criminal activities and the politicians which enabled them. Will a Paul Wellstone type Democrat be handing them out? Will they promote closing all nuclear power plants and going Wind and Solar and Wave action?

Where shall we go from here?

[MedicalAdmin]

115. Remember what happened to Paul.

MLK - alive until he advocated for peace. Then bullet to the head.
JFK - announced a switch in pOlicy to pull back the MIC - bullets in the head.
RFK - running on a platform of equality and justice - shot dead by?

Paul - plane goes down and the FBI is on the scene within 1/2 hour with an office 3.5 hours drive away. They secure the site for 3 hours ( when only the NTSB has that authority) and ?

Anyone want to add to the list?

[Enthusiast]

46. Not to change the subject but

newly elected Republican governors plan to privatize many state services. Pure crony capitalism.

[JDPriestly]

119. BobbyBoring, GWB told one of the South American leaders that the way to

improve the economy is to fight a war. Apparently, Bush was quite serious about that.

The idea that the New Deal brought the US out of the Great Depression is so evident but at the same time so inconsistent with Republican thought that they dreamed up the idea that it was WWII that brought the country out of the recession.

Obviously, and this is so obvious that every conservative should be red-faced with embarrassment at its obviousness, is that the war merely continued the idea of the New Deal -- that Americans working together as a team, sacrificing for each other, investing in Government Bonds (as that generation did even if they were poor), volunteering, paying high taxes and HIRING PEOPLE WITH GOVERNMENT TAX FUNDS would eventually bring the country to prosperity.

What is war but one huge government employment project?

To me, the conservative idea that investing tax money in military equipment and personnel is OK but investing tax money in infrastructure is not is unrealistic.

If we invested more tax money in infrastructure and less in military preparedness and action, we would actually get something for our money other than a bad reputation in the world.

Conservatism makes no sense. It is based on false premises and way past time for self-styled conservatives to finally admit it.

[mrcheerful]

25. I can not for the life of me understand anyone that can't see the faults of their home

country. The United States has been a war mongering country since its founding. It's has also been home to the most greediest families who's interests the government has supported and help expand often through the use of the military, what do you think was behind the genocide of the native population. We were told a historical myth that the military was used to protect farmers against aggressive natives, but reality and fact tell a different story that it was the cattle barons and gold tycoons who the military protected as well as the railroad tycoons. What historical myth has done is sugar coat the past to cover up the Real United States history so it's citizens could feel better about their war mongering country and claim innocence when other countries point out the US war mongering.

For example look at WWII, we are told the Japanese attacked us, they did, but what was going on before the attack? We were doing military actions for China, remember we had a volunteer air force flying the skies over China when the Japanese started a war with China, John Wayne even starred in a movie that told some of that story, glorified American greatness of Americans fighting the good fight for freedom, ignoring that we were supporting Mao's Red army. Even though it is in the history books, it is over looked. So yeah it is easy to explain the citizens of the US over looking the bloody history of the country because we are taught to over look the US war mongering past. Sadly all countries try to cover up their less then shinning example of greatness.

[Enthusiast]

47. Everyone forgets the Flying Tigers.

The P-40s fighter planes had a shark face painted on the engine cowls.

[DeSwiss]

26. A country founded on a LIE.....

...by slaveholders demanding their freedom, and who have been at war almost continuously ever since. As George Carlin said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rlqjxst6xU">'We Like War'

Yep, they were right.

- But Taverner you're not alone because they http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies_My_Teacher_Told_Me">lied to us all in our public school history books.....

K&R

"It's the old American double-standard -- you know: 'say one thing, do something different.' And of course the country is founded on the double standard, that's our history. We were founded on a very basic double-standard. This country was founded by slave-owners who wanted to be free." ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rlqjxst6xU">George Carlin

[Little Star]

27. Yep!

[hootinholler]

28. Sometimes? n/t

[JackintheGreen]

29. Somebody had to step in

after Germany got all docile and such.

Sorry. That was mean. But seriously, I don't care if 60 years have gone by, I don't want to hear any shit from Germans about the US being a warmonger (we are) unless it begins with; "You know, it wasn't so long ago that we struggled with that too..."

[Taverner]

32. FTR It did include that

My friends were very cognizant of their Nazi history, and let me know it was drilled into their heads since Kindergarten.

They felt if we did the same thing (learned our REAL history) perhaps its not too late

[JackintheGreen]

35. Then I cheerfully accept their gentle rebuke. n/t

[Enthusiast]

48. Even though it is true?

You don't want to hear it? We need to hear it. I don't care who says it.

[JackintheGreen]

77. You clearly didn't read my response

or at least made no effort to read *into* it. I made it fairly specific and pretty clear, so I'll just leave this here.

[2banon]

149. ohh puhleeze..

I don't want to hear any shit from Germans about the US being a warmonger (we are) unless it begins with; "You know, it wasn't so long ago that we struggled with that too..."

as if this were 1948 and two-three generations have not gone through a necessary but painful self examination of the stain and horrible legacy their fore fathers brought to bare upon their nation, something we seem to choose not to do.

not to mention diversion from the topic at hand.

[StarburstClock]

30. That is sadly true. It can be changed in numerous ways but unfortunately it'll

be going broke that will be the only thing that will. Three wars going on now while millions are unemployed, uninsured, evicted and imprisoned.

It's a race to the bottom in both intelligence and finance, we're a corrupt country.

[Enthusiast]

50. Corruption is the main factor.

[Mimosa]

33. K'ing & R' ing a must read OP

Taverner, you've probably read about President Eisenhower's departure 'warning' speech. Ike originally had written the Military Industrial Congressional Complex and was persuaded to change the wording.

Here's a link to President Eisenhower's 'warning' speech as delivered. It's also on YouTube. We who maintain our principles whether a President is a Democrat or Republican are in good company.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/dwightdeisenhowerfarewell.html

[Motown_Johnny]

34. that just goes to show ya

never argue about war mongering with a group of Germans

[AllyCat]

36. Yup. We are dayum good at those two things.

[apocalypsehow]

39. Since there have only been 200,000 Peace Corps members/volunteers since 1961, you are a member of a

a very elite group!

Given the fifty year lifespan of the program, and taking into account the U.S. population every year of that lifespan, plus the current U.S. population minus yearly mortality rates over those same years, that says that you are an alumni of a group that makes up a very tiny percentage of the current populace: less than 0.000001%. And that's just rounding off!

Extraordinary! What was your technical specialty while with the Peace Corps?

[intaglio]

40. Have a look at this Wiki page

Timeline of United States military operations

I'm not saying the UK is any better ...

[tclambert]

53. Wow, what a list.

Okay, I got 1796, 1797, 1828, 1829, 1830, 1892, 1897, 1954, 1977, and 1979 as the only ten years without fighting. The Apache War from 1851-1890 (40 years) was the longest conflict.

Personally, I was surprised to see how many times we had troops in China. My grade school teachers did not cover any of that.

The problem is there's just too much. If you edit it down to the top 10, you leave out the Spanish-American War, the Mexican War, all the Native American wars, and much, much more.

[LittleGirl]

61. thanks for that link

I've bookmarked it for future reference for when a neocon wants to argue about the US not being a war mongering country. That list proves so much it's breathtaking.

[malaise]

42. It's the sad truth

and it's done while the same folks scream about democracy freedom and peace.
War is the number one industry in America.

[Enthusiast]

43. There is far too much militarism

and ultra nationalism in this fucking country. Add in the Jebus factor and the corporate factor and it is clear that we are on the path to world conflict.

Is there a chance that American fascists can control the greatest military apparatus in world history and chose not to use it for world domination? I don't think so. These people are as loony as any WWII Nazi.

[Confusious]

45. We don't kill indiscriminately.

We kill for corporations, money & oil. (Mom, god and apple pie)

[Enthusiast]

52. True.

It isn't as if we had a hatred for indigenous populations they just happened to be in the road of progress.

[Confusious]

57. Well, to be honest....

A minority did, but for the most part yea, they happened to be in the road of (money).

Sorry, had to correct that last part.

[hifiguy]

74. Yep. How dare those brown people be sitting on OUR oil

and have the nerve to be doing so in their own country. Don't they know that the world belongs to 'murkan fascist capitalism?

[Enthusiast]

89. Exactly

Welcome to the DU!

[onlyadream]

49. Sad but true

Jon Stewart did a bit on this on Monday. I think people are starting to "feel" that this is ridiculous. We impose sanctions for less than a week and then make the decision to go in. Very reminiscent of the Iraq war, how they were sending inspectors in while the army was on its way (obvious that the writing was on the wall and the inspectors were really a sham).

When we have our Japanese moment (like a huge earth quake or the super volcano blows) we'll finally stop this crap (at least for a little while).

[lunatica]

51. We don't just deny, we tout our humaneness and generosity

And we believe the world loves us so much that everyone wants to come here and be us.

Oh. And terrorists hate us because we're so wonderfully free. Or just wonderful.

[Enthusiast]

54. Yes. It is actually hard to believe.

American citizens are living under a huge mass delusion.

[Pacifist Patriot]

72. This is why non-violent protest can work so well.

A people who pride themselves on being humane, generous and refined can be rudely awakened when their brutality is thrust in their faces. *cough* Gandhi and the Brutish Empire come to mind.

[stockholmer]

55. War is the Health of the State.........Randolph Bourne

First part of an essay entitled "The State," which was left unfinished at Bourne's untimely death in 1918

http://struggle.ws/hist_texts/warhealthstate1918.html




"........................Criticism of the State, objections to war, lukewarm opinions concerning the necessity or the beauty of conscription, are made subject to ferocious penalties, far exceeding in severity those affixed to actual pragmatic crimes. Public opinion, as expressed in the newspapers, and the pulpits and the schools, becomes one solid block. "Loyalty," or rather war orthodoxy, becomes the sole test for all professions, techniques, occupations. Particularly is this true in the sphere of the intellectual life. There the smallest taint is held to spread over the whole soul, so that a professor of physics is ipso facto disqualified to teach physics or to hold honorable place in a university - the republic of learning - if he is at all unsound on the war. Even mere association with persons thus tainted is considered to disqualify a teacher. Anything pertaining to the enemy becomes taboo. His books are suppressed wherever possible, his language is forbidden. His artistic products are considered to convey in the subtlest spiritual way taints of vast poison to the soul that permits itself to enjoy them. So enemy music is suppressed, and energetic measures of opprobrium taken against those whose artistic consciences are not ready to perform such an act of self-sacrifice. The rage for loyal conformity works impartially, and often in diametric opposition to other orthodoxies and traditional conformities, or even ideals. The triumphant orthodoxy of the State is shown at its apex perhaps when Christian preachers lose their pulpits for taking in more or less literal terms the Sermon on the Mount, and Christian zealots are sent to prison for twenty years for distributing tracts which argue that war is unscriptural.

War is the health of the State. It automatically sets in motion throughout society those irresistible forces for uniformity, for passionate cooperation with the Government in coercing into obedience the minority groups and individuals which lack the larger herd sense. The machinery of government sets and enforces the drastic penalties; the minorities are either intimidated into silence, or brought slowly around by a subtle process of persuasion which may seem to them really to be converting them. Of course, the ideal of perfect loyalty, perfect uniformity is never really attained. The classes upon whom the amateur work of coercion falls are unwearied in their zeal, but often their agitation instead of converting, merely serves to stiffen their resistance. Minorities are rendered sullen, and some intellectual opinion bitter and satirical. But in general, the nation in wartime attains a uniformity of feeling, a hierarchy of values culminating at the undisputed apex of the State ideal, which could not possibly be produced through any other agency than war. Loyalty - or mystic devotion to the State - becomes the major imagined human value. Other values, such as artistic creation, knowledge, reason, beauty, the enhancement of life, are instantly and almost unanimously sacrificed, and the significant classes who have constituted themselves the amateur agents of the State are engaged not only in sacrificing these values for themselves but in coercing all other persons into sacrificing them.

War - or at least modern war waged by a democratic republic against a powerful enemy - seems to achieve for a nation almost all that the most inflamed political idealist could desire. Citizens are no longer indifferent to their Government, but each cell of the body politic is brimming with life and activity. We are at last on the way to full realization of that collective community in which each individual somehow contains the virtue of the whole. In a nation at war, every citizen identifies himself with the whole, and feels immensely strengthened in that identification. The purpose and desire of the collective community live in each person who throws himself wholeheartedly into the cause of war. The impeding distinction between society and the individual is almost blotted out. At war, the individual becomes almost identical with his society. He achieves a superb self-assurance, an intuition of the rightness of all his ideas and emotions, so that in the suppression of opponents or heretics he is invincibly strong; he feels behind him all the power of the collective community. The individual as social being in war seems to have achieved almost his apotheosis. Not for any religious impulse could the American nation have been expected to show such devotion en masse, such sacrifice and labor. Certainly not for any secular good, such as universal education or the subjugation of nature, would it have poured forth its treasure and its life, or would it have permitted such stern coercive measures to be taken against it, such as conscripting its money and its men. But for the sake of a war of offensive self-defense, undertaken to support a difficult cause to the slogan of "democracy," it would reach the highest level ever known of collective effort............................."

[tclambert]

56. But when we make war, we don't hurt anybody or break anything.

And we give everybody puppies afterwards.

Our view of our own history is so very messed up.

[hulka38]

59. We are. n/t

[Modern_Matthew]

60. I'm fairly new to DU and it's people like you that keep me here. nt

[Citizen Worker]

62. Manifest Destiny

[The Wizard]

64. Remember Ho Chi Minh?

He was also a ruthless dictator. How'd that work out? Same language, different era, different country, same objective.

[hifiguy]

76. Ho begged the US for help to get the French out of Vietnam

because he thought the US was sincere in the policy of anti-colonialism FDR espoused throughout WW2. Truman was prevailed upon by the military to turn America's back to Ho. That worked out really well, didn't it?

[ieoeja]

84. He begged Wilson, not FDR or Truman, for help.

And we were pretty isolationist back then. We certainly were not going to start a fight with the French at that point.

He went communist around 1920. So in Truman's time he wouldn't have asked the US for help against the French. Were to help anyone, it would have been the non-communist factions in Vietnam who were fighting against the French.

[hifiguy]

91. I just read McCulloch's Truman bio

a month ago, and it pretty clearly stated that Ho approached the US for assistance following the end of WW2. And that book seemed pretty well researched and documented.

[ieoeja]

98. Yes, he did. I stopped reading when I got to the Wilson request.

And I guess it did make sense from Ho's viewpoint. Truman and Churchill had not yet declared the Cold War. At that time all anyone knew was that we supported South American independance movements, saved China from being cut up into colonies, and helped the Soviet Union against Germany.

On the face of it, one could have mistakenly thought we would help.

Heck, I was surprised to learn last week that the Philippines celebrate Independance Day as their independance from Spain, not the US. Apparently, even though we hung around to run things, they see us as liberators. Probably because we don't do the whole enslave/genocide thing like true colonials did.

[The Wizard]

131. Ho wanted to be a US ally

He was turned down because he espoused a socialist government for Vietnam. The US rejected him because Joe McCarthy was politically successful in winning elections with red baiting and declaring all his opponents soft of communism. This strategy was also successfully employed by Nixon.
Starting wars for political gain is immoral. Several years ago we had a president from Texas take office under unusual circumstances. He then started a war predicated on lies against a nation that neither threatened nor harmed us.

[havbrush]

146. HoChi Minh

A ruthless dictator if you're looking at it from a 1950-60s French or US perspective, a freedom fighter and hero if you're looking at it from Vietnamese perspective. And you can add one other description. . . a winner.

[avaistheone1]

65. Yes, this is a sad, sad truth.

[mmonk]

66. Predatory states tend to be. We have a perpetual war time economy.

That is what the MIC has always wanted.

[harun]

67. Until people are punished for this at the ballot box it will continue.

It is not our leaders fault, it is the electors fault. People keep voting for people who support American Imperialism.

When's the last time you even heard a candidate asked if they support American Imperialism or not? It just doesn't happen because people want to support it and don't want to face the truth they support it.

[tavalon]

68. Really?

I would have agreed with you before Citizen's United. I no longer believe this country is set up as one person-one vote. It's now one dollar-one vote. The game has been so massively rigged that I'm contemplating just walking out.

[harun]

73. We are no longer a Democracy, not even close.

So about actually fixing the situation at the ballot box, I agree. It won't happen. In my opinion it will take at MINIMUM a generation to fix the damage of CU. But it is far more likely it won't ever get fixed. It is probably more likely for the empire to be defeated militarily than for people to actually vote to fix the real problems. If you need a super-majority for real change and > 90% of your elected representatives are corrupted by Corporate $$$, what chance do you have? NONE.

[Javaman]

69. Oh, we were involved in things before WWII...

Timeline of United States military operations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations

[davidthegnome]

70. Good post

The Germans, I think, have learned from their history. We, on the other hand....

Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan - now Libya, though I'm still uncertain as to whether our actions in Libya are wrong. I do realize they wouldn't be taking place without a significant level of corporate interest.

Empire building should have died when the Roman Empire collapsed. We may call it something different now and attempt to cover it up via media and propaganda... but it's the same game, just a different age when we have to pretend we're not doing it. Instead, we'll call it "spreading democracy far and wide". Maybe throw in a comment or two about the burning light of freedom.

The same thing that brought down the Romans, is ultimately going to bring down the US. Internal corruption, forces spread wide on too many fronts - no Nation can keep that up forever. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, it seems we just haven't learned our lesson well enough. We have to make "shared sacrifice" among the middle class and poor while the wealthy enjoy their tax cuts. Somehow the rich bastards have convinced a lot of people that the wealth will "trickle down". Kind of like magic, you know? As long as the rich get richer, so do the poor - because they'll uhm, drop a few pennies our way. Right.

Our corporations (most of them) buy most of their labor from Countries where humanitarian conditions are awful. It's cheap, it's efficient - and many will work like slaves if that's what it takes to feed their families. Our manufacturing industry is almost completely broken, the cost of everything is going up and up. A college degree now means far less than it did ten years ago (add to that the greater expense of higher education, which continues to rise). The job market is terrible. We're busting up unions, cutting social services for those who most need them - we're facing very high levels of poverty, the number of homeless is on the rise and being blatantly ignored for the most part. I don't even want to think about our infrastructure.

This can't go on indefinitely. Either a time will come when we the people have had enough and rise... or when our greed and corruption make us into a third world Country. Maybe a nuclear war or an enormous natural disaster will spare us from the necessity of having to do anything about it though.

I'm so depressed and disappointed that it's hard to just get out of bed in the morning. I really wish I could avoid thinking.

[Pacifist Patriot]

71. Try teaching American history to children without feeling like it's war to war to war to war...

with a few short gaps in between (or not).

King Philip's War
French and Indian War
Revolutionary War
War of 1812
Seminole Wars
Mexican-American War
Civil War
Indian Wars
Spanish-American War
World War I
World War II
Korean War
Vietnam War
Iraq War

And that doesn't begin to even brush the surface of assorted smaller military actions (Phillipines, Honduras, Granada, Afghanistan......) or the Cold War.

Anyone who thinks the U.S.A. is a peaceful nation really is not staying awake in class.

[Gravel Democrat]

86. Don't forget the drug war! it's a war "waged on their own people" too. Time for us to bomb ourselves

http://costofwar.com

[Forrest Greene]

97. I've Been Getting Bombed In The Drug War For Years n/t

[JDPriestly]

120. And the war on "terrorism" which define as: We know it when we see it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

123. Indeed. Today I was explaining LBJ's two wars.

The War on Poverty. What a raging success that one has been. Our Vietnam expenditures totaled more than all of the Great Society programs combined. *sigh* And Americans like to think of themselves as humane, compassionate, peace-loving....have I sighed already?

[baldguy]

75. The people of America don't control the govt and haven't for a long time.

Corporations do.

And if a war is necessary for the continued profitability of a sufficient number of corporations - or necessary for a sufficient number of corporation to make a profit - there will be a war, declared or not. That's the whole purpose of war. The mass deaths of innocents are byproducts - literally collateral damage.

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

[Swampguana]

78. A lot of Americans require an outside view

The majority of other countries have thought this way for years. The blind ignorance and American pride we hold can be our worst enemy sometimes. Not to say you shouldn't be proud to be American, you most definitely should, I'm just saying we should listen to what other people have to say before disregarding their thoughts and opinions.

[mochajava666]

79. Good point. Can't argue with that.

[ZombieHorde]

81. The US does seem to enjoy war. nt

[Bragi]

82. "And if there is one thing the USA is known for, its our war. "

War is just part of it. I travel a lot abroad and think the U.S is now best known in the developed world as a crazy place.

It's a place where most people think widespread use of guns brings social harmony, where universal health care is thought to be a bad thing, where people believe religious texts over science, where prisons are built to house the poor and the sick, a place where not a single serious problem that matters can actually be addressed because of its corrupted, money-drenched political system.

It's a crazy place.

[The Backlash Cometh]

83. I had the same awakening.

Right after 9/11. There was an iconoclast who for years were telling us that it was the oil that attracted us to the Middle East and the reason behind the tensions against us and I didn't listen. It was a preposterous idea. We were just helping out allies in the Middle East. And then 9/11 happened. I still didn't want to believe it. But I believe it now.

[Jackpine Radical]

87. American exceptionalism--

Exceptionally brutal, exceptionally imperial in our ambitions, exceptionally greedy for the resources of the world, exceptionally cruel, exceptionally ignorant…

[hfojvt]

90. sometimes I think Joseph Perkins was right

even though at the time, I wrote a rebuttal to his column.

"Their opposition, their criticism is fueled not so much by reason, but by hatred - toward their president or toward their country."

My country - always wrong.

[JDPriestly]

121. hfpjvt. I think my country is basically good.

Most Americans as people are kind and respectful of others and responsible.

But we have been involved in an awful lot of wars on foreign soil. It is understandable that other countries characterize us as brutal war-mongers. That is the side that we show the world.

I would agree with you that the vast majority of Americans are not really brutal, war-mongers. But we are easily persuaded that killing people is justified, the only right thing to do. The defense industry is very good at selling its products to the American people --- fear, fear, fear.

[Pacifist Patriot]

124. I think Americans are basically good. It's America I have issues with.

[barbtries]

92. yep

i had that epiphany after the first gulf war. peace.

[AlbertCat]

93. America IS a war-monger country.

Our Defense Dept. is offensive.... in both senses of the word.
When was the last time we DEFENDED America? WWII? Everything else has been some kind of strategic offense with supposed benefits.

[Forrest Greene]

94. One Small Thing That Helps

...is to stop referring to "the Defense Department," "Defense Industry," & so forth. Call them the War Department, & War Industries. That's what they are.

Interjecting this subtle speaking-of-the-truth into conversations on the subject is too small to bring on reflex reactions of jingoism & guilt, but is large enough to register & to cause some thought, the kind that will take place later. You can see it happening. It's very rewarding.

[Locrian]

96. goes waaaaay back...

My dad always talks about how WWII was a good thing because it got us out of the depression....

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

99. so, the Germans were calling us warmongers? that's rich.

[Bragi]

101. Why?

Germany hasn't been involved in any wars since WW2, and it isn't for lack of resources.

[2banon]

150. This American is calling Amerika: War Monger - Deal with That!

if you please.

[Curtis]

100. If any other country attacked as many countries as we have

over the years, we'd have attacked them as a threat to the world

[Lydia Leftcoast]

103. Ever since the Vietnam War, the way that militarism is considered "patriotic"

has really made me angry.

If I had had children, I would have made sure that they knew too much history ever to be swayed by that garbage about "serving your country" by fighting on behalf of the military-industrial complex.

[WatsonT]

104. If we were a warmongering nation would we have a nobel laureate as president?

Those are peace bombs and freedom missiles.

[RMBEBBP]

105. Rec

TUA SENTENTIA CONSTAT QUEMADMODUM ADCURATE: TAMEN NOSTRA PATRIA TAM SIMILIS CUM IMPERIO ROMANO, HORRENDUM EST--
Your opinion is quite accurate, however, our nation is so similar to the Roman empire, it's scary.

ETIAM VEXILLUM CALIFORNIAE ILLA VERBA TERRIBILIA "PROVINCIA" MONSTRAT POST NUNTIUM TUUM, UT REVOCARES HOC FUISSE QUAMDAM APPELLATIONEM ROMANAM SIGNIFICANTEM "COLONIAM VICTAM ADIECTAM VIA BELLI IMPERIO ROMANO"--
Even the flag of California bears those terrible words "province" (the one in your sig-line after your message), you should recall that this was a Roman term meaning "defeated colony added via war to the Rome's territories.)

INDE IRONIA RESTAT QUAM TU DEMONSTRES IN NUNTIO TUI.
Herein, lies the irony which you point out in your post.

VELUT POPULO ROMANO, POPULUS AMERICANUS NIL SUSPICANTUR MALUM E FACTIS NOSTRAE REI PUBLICAE PROPTER NOSTRAM DISTANTIAM E ACTORIBUS IPSIBUS DECISIONIBUSQUE SYSTEMAE NOSTRI.
Just like the Roman people, the American people do not suspect any ill deed in our government's actions, on account of our distant from the actual actors/doers and decisions of our governing system.

QUAESO, MODO LICET TE LEGERE HISTORIAM JUGURTHI ET BELLI SUI CONTRA ROMAM SCRIPTAM SALLUSTIO , ET OMNIA CONSTENT PLUS.
I only please suggest that you read the history of Jugurtha and his wars against Rome written by Sallust--you see, he was Libyan enemy of the days yore--and everything will make more sense.

UTIQUE TUA SCRIPTA BONAST


VALE

[femrap]

106. And another one.....

:think:

google General Smedley Butler who realized long ago during FDR's presidency that "WAR IS A RACKET."

The Extremely Wealthy of the World LOVE WAR....they make money on both sides.

All the US exports is death, destruction and pron. We are BANKRUPT....MORALLY, FINANCIALLY, POLITICALLY, INTELLECTUALLY, EMOTIONALLY...and just about every other way that matters.

Our 'leaders' have NO SHAME. Excuse me while I :puke: at the thought of them.

[raouldukelives]

107. We send all of our old weapons out into the world

So we can spend most of our taxes on new weapons we need to fight the people who are now armed with our old weapons. Sounds like a pretty good gig for rich people who have no qualms devising new ways to kill poor people.

[obxhead]

108. I'm tired of it being called Defense.

Our military has been in a constant state of Offense since WWII.

[Snoutport]

109. The British War Museum was an eye opener for me

I went when I was in London and by the time I left I was thinking "HOLY COW, the British are total War Mongers!" About half a block later it dawned on me...the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree.

America exists because we have always been willing to fight...and we learned it from the British.

[Xenotime]

110. I was hoping that with President Obama in office all of this would change.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalhistorian]

112. Germans calling another country

"warmongers" have a lot of chutzpah, considering their own history. And most other countries would not have helped rebuild Germany, the instigator of WWII and responsible for the murder of tens of millions, the way that we did after WWII. Your friends were full of shit.

[demwing]

114. Chutzpah =/= "Full of Shit"

the fact that Germany has a history of war in no way changes the fact the US is building one, and has been for a quarter of a century.

[OwnedByFerrets]

113. Bout time you came around to the truth. Not happy that

I figured it out long ago, but there it is.

[mrcheerful]

116. Well I grew up during the western TV craze and by my teens I realized that it

wasn't the scary red man who started the war it was the even scarier white men who used fear to promote the genocide of native Americans for fun and profit. That put me on track to search out the other lies and myths I was told, like from my early memories the Saginaw river never formed ice on it even on the minus temp days. The schools told us the river ran to fast for ice to form, so I did a library search of pre industrial era and found out that not only did ice form on the river but ice was being harvested from the river. That lead me to one conclusion, the area's foundries and factories were the reason the river didn't freeze. So the next time in class that the teacher said the river ran to fast for ice I pulled out my information showing that he was lying, I got booted out of the class for being disruptive. That pretty much told me that no one wanted the facts, they were more comfortable with myth's.

[OwnedByFerrets]

151. Had I know the facts about "Columbus" when in high school,

I'm sure I would have gotten booted out more often also.

[mrcheerful]

152. Yeah should have seen my history teachers face when I pointed out the fact that ole Chris not only

didn't discover America but thought he was in India which is how native Americans became known as Indians, he was lost worse then Bugs Bunny was when he took that wrong turn in Albuquerque. That got me a few weeks detention time.

[OwnedByFerrets]

153. Those are just fun facts. Once you learn that good ole Chris

was a pedophile and creator of genocide, you have to wonder why we celebrate a day in his honor.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/08/4398

[deaniac21]

128. Germans calling anyone a war monger causes me to giggle.

[anneboleyn]

137. Me too. Since 1945 they have become very circumspect, but not before. For centuries

they were certainly pro-war. Hell, back to the Roman Empire.

[WatsonT]

145. Not particularly so

look at their history of aggressive militarist expansion compared to some of their neighbors prior to the world wars.

France deserves that reputation far more.

[RedCloud]

130. Call it at "empire" for that IS what it is.

We fight wars to placate the international rich. We no longer offer citizenship to the subdued peoples.

[CTyankee]

132. Seems to me the Germans know something about the outcome of war mongering.

If any country has learned that lesson well, it is Germany.

[anneboleyn]

138. The irony is that they didn't learn it after WWI.

[CTyankee]

140. Well, that was a different war. WW I was fought over colonial territories.

WWII was more of a power move that Hitler had after the Great Depression. I'm no expert but Hitler played pretty strongly on anti-semitism to catapult him to power than anybody did in WWI.
Bad stuff, anyway...

[Bragi]

143. The harsh terms of their surrender explain that /nt

[TNLib]

133. I wonder what happens when we run out of countries that have bad guys as leaders

Are we just going to attack countries with good guys for leaders?


:shrug:

[CTyankee]

141. This is a good question. But I don't think we need to fear any dictator of a country without oil

resources...

[DFab420]

134. Soo Next time your German friends talk about how America is a war monger

feel free to mention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_war_of_Schleswig

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Prussian_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Paris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany_during_World_War_II


Then kindly remind them that ALL countries engage in war. We fight over resources, just like they fought over land/genetic purity/unification of German States etc.

Not a justification, just tired of Europeans forgetting the MASS of human atrocities and deaths they have just behind them.

[anneboleyn]

139. Not to mention the Germanic tribes vs. the Roman Empire

Germany has a long history as far as this is concerned.

[CTyankee]

142. I don't automatically assume that the Germans "forgot" anything. I think they learned a brutal

lesson and they reinforce the recognition of that lesson all the time. The Allies just wreaked destruction on a massive scale to Germany at the end of WWII. Germany was in rubble. Dresden's population had been firebombed. Berlin had to be rebuilt. The Allies instituted the War Crimes Tribunal in Nuremberg to further underscore Germany's crimes against humanity. And don't forget that Germany was further weakened as a single state when it was partitioned during the Cold War. I'm not even sure they were allowed to have an army, but I doubt it.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

136. It is because war makes certain people really rich...

...and it kills poor people. What better thing to do?!
Just saying...

[Mosaic]

144. Secret societies role in cultural imperialism?

Can anyone answer that question? I'm talking about freemasons, skull and bones, freaks like that.