We will have incivility here at DU as long as we tolerate incivility.

[hedgehog]

I've used the Alert button for trolls; I've only used it once or twice to alert when a member is facing personal attack. I hope to be more aware and proactive in the future.

[Ian David]

1. Fuck incivility! n/t

[hedgehog]

2. No, no, ALERT on incivility!

:toast:

[Ian David]

3. Right. Feed a cold, fuck a fever, alert on incivility. Got it. n/t

[Shagbark Hickory]

48. Fuck a fever? LOLz

Never tried that before.

[Turbineguy]

4. Well yes

but if we have it here, it saves the trolls and freepers the trouble.

[hlthe2b]

5. I've been trying to think how best to deal with the "bullying"

that occurs against one or more members who hold an opposing view to the majority and which, to me, is increasing in occurrence. The problem is that it starts as mere majority disagreement, which is fine, but then moves quickly to mocking and derision and piling on. Sometimes it is very subtle and knowing that, I am sure I may have been guilty of participating in the past. I DO know I have been on the receiving end and it is very very unpleasant. We drive off good members this way, particularly since it may reflect someone's misstatement or misrepresentation of what was originally said that gets it going.

Since it begins as mere majority disagreement, there has to be some line that is crossed where it becomes a more unpleasant mass mocking event. But, recognizing that line is not very easy to do and by the time it is crossed, it is really too late.

Besides posting an attempt to defend/deflect the criticism (which does little once the ball has started rolling), I'm not sure what to do. For a moderator that hasn't been following the progression of the thread, it may not be immediately obvious what was happening in time to stop it--until the damage was done.

Any thoughts?

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. Drawing a dividing line between disagreement and mockery is impossible

It's too much in the eye of the beholder. Insults are a bit easier to classify. I think we're going to continue to mock each other - it's happened for 10 years, and it's too late to stop now.

[hlthe2b]

7. Mocking isn't the problem until the gang dynamic comes into play

the pile-on.... We all have to have thick skin. That goes with the territory. But, the pile on does get out of control...

[Cetacea]

46. +1

Agreed.

[hedgehog]

11. You're right about how volitile some threads can get. An OP or comment

can turn into a flame fest very easily. Sub-threads can be the worst.

Would it help to PM people to cool it, or would that make things worse?

[hlthe2b]

15. I will PM sometimes, if I feel I "know" the poster....

Others have relayed to me that PMs have been misconstrued as "stalking," by some members, so I tend to be cautious. But it is a consideration.

[hedgehog]

17. As the oldest child, my fear about PM ing someone is fear of

being a nanny!

You're right, a PM could be seen as stalking.

[seabeyond]

34. i dont hesitate to pm. i start with answer or dont, both are fine with me...

then say what i have to say. if they dont answer, i dont take it personally. but everyone has, so i dont worry about it anymore. all have been nice, recpetive.

i think a lot can be avoided though if a friend might be honest with a friend. sometimes there are reasons for pile on. and i have certainly had my share. had a couple recently where i was the only one, or close to seeing a different way. and that is ok. that happens sometimes. i didnt get mad. i didnt call names. and i responded to the many many posters, lol.

[hlthe2b]

45. Sometimes the OP brings it on themselves...

that is when I try to tactfully point out via PM.

I don't know if the message is taken to heart. Probably not, from recent experience. ;)

'Figure I ought to try, though.

[snooper2]

63. don't post about woo, and yes, we did land on the moon

[Sherman A1]

8. I support the Planet Pluto

and adhere to the laws of gravity! I shall not be swayed.

[Modern_Matthew]

9. But when you think about it, civility is only a mask. I'd rather people be real. nt

[blondeatlast]

18. Civility isn't fakery, it's respect. nt

[bobbolink]

51. It is quite possible to be both very real and civil.

That should be a given.

[gkhouston]

66. +1 Actually, I'd say that descending into insults isn't "real" discussion, although

it may express an honestly held sentiment. And if I continue in this vein, we'll be discussion knowns and unknowns next...

[JuniperLea]

10. I'm going into lurk mode...

again...

[socialist_n_TN]

12. Geez people it's just message board shit...........

Nobody's going to come to your house and beat you up over a post on DU. I've gotten heated myself a few times and I've been on both sides of the "incivility", but MOST OF THE TIME, I just pass it off. I know there are posters that I'm going to disagree with 90% of the time and we're going to clash. I've also got some homeies that are going to AGREE with me 90% of the time. Hell, I'd rather have the "incivility" of an actual POST than the hit and run rec/unrec shit. It's a MESSAGE BOARD. Take what you can that's positive for YOU and let the rest run off into the sewer.

If you want to talk about incivility, try posting on a generic political board that's 60% Teabagger and 15% Republican or Republican Lite and only about 25% liberal/left. THAT'S where you'll find incivility. That was MY life before DU. Even at it's worst, this place is a piece of cake compared to that. I DID get some benefit out of it though. I learned how the extreme RW argue and, to a certain extent, think. That's why it's easy for me to recognize even on here. I also learned how to ignore message board shit.

[hedgehog]

16. It's the line between saying "I disagree with you" and

"you are a stinky booger brain"!

That's an exaggeration, but not much of one. I've stopped going to some Left wing blogs because of the constant personal animosity to anyone the blogger disagrees with.

There are people I disagree with sometimes and agree with at others. The goal isn't to develop a following or gang of supporters, it's to exchange ideas, observations and points of view in an effort to learn something.

[socialist_n_TN]

22. Well, yeah, but "you are a stinky booger brain!".........

and any other insights like that that are NOT in response to any point you've made, should be pretty easy to ignore. As I said, I KNOW how the REAL extreme RW thinks and argues. I fought it in cyberspace for 4 or 5 YEARS. When it gets to that point, just put them on ignore and know you won't miss a thing.

OTOH, there must be some sort of problem because one of my fav posters is leaving the community because of this and I HATE that. OF course, there were a few that left in the past because they FELT they were getting pressure from management. IOW, they left because they felt there was too MUCH control. I guess there's a fine line between management taking TOO firm of a line and taking too LAX of a line.

As to your last paragraph, I freely admit that I come here with an agenda to push. I appreciate the disagreement because it hones my debating skills, but I also recognize the posters that agree with me and appreciate them too. Not because they're agreeing with me, but because their perspective on the agreement is sometimes different than mine and I want to see that different perspective. I LEARN from both agreement AND disagreement. But if somebody wants to call me a "stinky booger brain", then that's a poster I'll ignore because I WON'T learn anything FROM their disagreement.

BTW, that ignore isn't with the "ignore" feature because, just like rec/unrec, I don't use it either. I'll even still read what they write, I just usually won't comment because their comments aren't WORTH my time to comment on it.

Everybody just needs to realize there's an agree to disagree point on an issue and leave it at that. And it somebody resorts to insults, then they aren't worth bothering with.

[tblue37]

38. Disagreement doesn't bother me--even vehement

disagreement. But I must admit to being shocked and repelled a week or two ago when I came upon a whole thread in which several posters piled on to mock another poster.

The thing is, I actually agreed that the post that started their mocking was written in a tone that many might easily mistake as offensive, though I actually don't think the poster intended to be offensive at all--just forceful, because she was posting about something she took very, very seriously and felt the need to make her understanding of it completely clear, especially since her understanding was based on direct experience of relevant situations, and she feared that others without such experience might have a too sentimental view of reality in some cases (and I think she was probably right about that, too).

I teach writing, and I am all too aware of how difficult it can be for writers to convey their intensity on the page without the risk of seeming to come on too strong.

But the tone of the piling on posts were impossible to misconstrue. They were intended to be offensive, and I imagine the poster felt not just slapped in the face, but kicked to the ground and mercilessly pummeled. After reading that thread I turned off my computer and didn't return to DU for a while--and I wasn't even a poster on that thread or on the previous thread that it referred to. I just felt that I had stepped into slime and didn't like the way it felt.

[Quantess]

47. That's right.

Plus, when English is not your native language, the message may come off not quite how it was intended.

[bobbolink]

53. In any communication, real people can be hurt. Denying that doesn't change reality.

When people are asking for civility, it is only right to honor that and not brush it off.

That is called PEACE... you know.. what we keep protesting for.

"Let there be peace and let it begin at DU."

[taterguy]

13. Oh shut the fuck up

I keed

I keed

[hlthe2b]

21. Now you've done it... Just for that I've dispatched someone.....

to steal your bike....! :evilgrin:

[taterguy]

27. I will live to regret posting where I leave it unlocked every day

Any way to edit a post from three years ago?

[seabeyond]

36. du is soooo bad. lol.

no really

just keedin

[deaniac21]

14. I've been losing sleep over this for 2 weeks.

[slackmaster]

19. I've starting to use Ignore more frequently on people who seem have their heads up their asses

The count is an all-time high of 10, including a few Tombstoners who I keep on it just for old time's sake.

[hedgehog]

20. I've been here long enough to see some old time posters suddenly

auger in over one particular subject or another. It makes me wonder if everyone has a limited life span.

[patrice]

23. I think we should put self-"policing" in support of civility ahead of cliques & stop abdicating

or trying to ignore Personal responsibility for what goes on around us.

Mediation is not impossible, especially standards-oriented, people practicing being reasonable and standing up for empirical facts too.

DU elicits questions about how people do things like choosing to responsibly support useful social standards, or not, and practicing personal moderation, or flaming in some cases . . . some choosing to practice personal clarity and communication-useful/essential behaviors for shared environments of social responsibility - and also something shared called the U.S. of A.

..................................................

SOLIDARITY with American Labor!

STOP the Wars!!!

[TroglodyteScholar]

24. What we NEED...

...is a way to run off all the jagoffs that see debate/disagreement and take offense as though it is inherently uncivil. I would have said we need a way to thicken those people's skin, but that just seemed too far-fetched.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I shot holes in someone's position and was accused of being uncivil for it.

[tblue37]

41. Yes, that is true, but please see my post #22 on this thread.

Perhaps you missed the thread I refer to, but it really was just one post after another viciously making fun of a specific poster, not disagreeing with any point, just laughing at her, insulting her, and mocking her.

[damntexdem]

25. We will have incivility here at DU as long as we tolerate free debate.

When the civility police crack down on 'incivility,' that will be the time to abandon DU as yet one more forum that no longer allows free debate.

[Quantess]

50. "free debate"? At DU?

:rofl:

[RagAss]

26. locking

For incivility.

[socialist_n_TN]

28. I thought for a second there that this was an "official" lock

:) You POOPYHEAD!

[RagAss]

29. LOL....but I've had a few of my threads locked for less.

[Shagbark Hickory]

49. Locking.

To look official, capital L and punctuation.

[Bragi]

30. We could speak up more when we see it

We can do so in a civil manner.

[hedgehog]

31. Just be careful not to get caught up in someone else's ongoing vendetta.

[dbt]

32. Incivility is GOOD for TRAFFIC.

The more drama, the more eyeballs stay glued to DU. Good for the Corporate Sponsors. Just like the DLC.

:evilgrin:

[Poll_Blind]

33. Inner voice, dbt! Inner voice!

:rofl:

PB

[Quantess]

37. Some people read this site just for entertainment.

It's like watching Jerry Springer.
However, that makes it more difficult for outsiders to take DU seriously.

[dbt]

40. Yeah, I know.

I useta think it mattered. Somehow.

:evilgrin:

[tekisui]

68. It's true, flame war=clicks$$$

[Blue-Jay]

35. Why don't you go shit in your hat?

:bounce:

[malaise]

39. Good idea

:hi:

[DeadEyeDyck]

42. Maybe we need a "Fight Club" forum where

anyone can go and have a free-for-all. Some place for a cathartic discharge.

[Quantess]

43. Tell people what we REALLY think of them

and not have posts deleted. We could bring back Operation Mind Crime, Omega Minimo, and Will Pitt! :evilgrin:

[DeadEyeDyck]

71. +1

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

52. Hey, hi

How are you doing? I've been offline the last week, wanted to check in with Du and you in particular. How are you?

[Bonobo]

54. Hi there.

I am okay, thanks for asking.

What did you do during the week unplugged?

I'm off to the mountain to dig up some ground. I'm making a new garden. Actually reclaiming land that is in my wife's family but that has returned to the wild.

Hard work is good for the spirit.

Be well.

[uppityperson]

55. I was on a break

It was good. I missed the up to the moment news here, but it was quite nice to not be on DU.

I'm glad you are doing well, hard work is good for the spirit and making a garden is very good work.

[Biker13]

56. I'm A Member...

of a forum that suffered for this very reason. I joined back in 2000, and I loved the place. Very progressive, but welcoming of opposing views. It was extremely educational! Than, a couple of posters started stalking a few select members. One was a Mod who often got drunk (you could tell, spelling errors and no punctuation) and it wasn't stopped by the owner of the site. Soon, it became a sport, and one poster in particular was given free rein, (because of his post count)to rip into anyone he decided to hate that day. A couple of us complained, and got no reasonable answer from the owner.There was one guy in particular, very well read and educated that would post some great stuff, but if it didn't aline perfectly with the stalkers views, was ganged up on to the point that he left. Soon after, about 25 of us just gave up.

I went there today, and there were NO new posts. I'm sure it will be totally gone soon.

That won't happen here, the membership is too large, but some great people have left here, and it's usually the best that do.

I've come to the conclusion that no forum can ever remain civil and that the worst will alway take over. It's the nature of the beast.

Biker's Old Lady

[bobbolink]

61. "some great people have left here, and it's usually the best that do"

Exactly, but it doesn't seem to matter. :cry:

Your words are very astute... I wish they would be heeded.... :(

[Bragi]

57. Wish there was a smilie for "play nicely"

If there was a "play nicely" smilie thing, a person could post that icon in response to observed bullying or uncivil behaviour.

No explanation would be needed, and the person could just move on without getting into debate, having made that statement.

If enough people did that, the message might get through to bullies and abusers.

Dunno, just a suggestion.

[hedgehog]

58. I like it - but my second thought is that it can be used as a weapon.

All in all, maybe the Alert button is the best. More work for the Mods, but it keeps things from becoming personal.

[Bragi]

59. I suppose

I never use the alert button, but I guess I should. It's weird, but for me, doing that is like getting someone else to fight my battle, or a snitch line or something.

But I take your point. Maybe there needs to be a campaign to get people to love and use the alert button more.

[bobbolink]

62. If it is heeded

[hedgehog]

64. Mods have lives, too. Sometimes it takes a while to get a response,

but they generally come through.

[bobbolink]

65. If you are the right person, yes. Then you are one of the lucky ones. Not all are.

And you can hear that or not... it is a common experience here, and I will let it go at that.

[gkhouston]

69. I've begun to alert more, regardless. The mods aren't psychic, so they aren't

going to know I think someone's being a jagoff unless I alert on them. I've got no control over what they do with the alert, but they certainly won't do anything if no one complains.

[Baclava]

60. Dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope

Oops - wrong forum



Please don't kick me in the nuts

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

70. + infinitum

[U4ikLefty]

72. Some people are assholes. nt