Libyan rebellion has radical Islamist fervor: Benghazi link to Islamic militancy:U.S. Military Docum

[jakeXT]

Well known to the United States policymakers in Obama White House and Clinton State Department along with the National Security Council but not widely known to American mainstream media, the U.S. West Point Military Academy’s Combating Terrorism Center document reveals that Libya sent more fighters to Iraq’s Islamic militancy on a per-capita basis than any other Muslim country, including Saudi Arabia.

Perhaps more alarmingly for Western policymakers, most of the fighters came from eastern Libya, the center of the current uprising against Muammar el-Qaddafi.

The analysis of the Combating Terrorism Center of West Point was based on the records captured by coalition forces in October 2007 in a raid near Sinjar, along Iraq’s Syrian border.

The eastern Libyan city of Darnah sent more fighters to Iraq than any other single city or town, according to the West Point report. It noted that 52 militants came to Iraq from Darnah, a city of just 80,000 people (the second-largest source of fighters was Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, which has a population of more than 4 million).

http://www.asiantribune.com/news/2011/03/17/libyan-rebellion-has-radical-islamist-fervor-benghazi-link-islamic-militancyus-milit

[tabatha]

1. Well, I share something with those

52? (is that all) militants - against the war in Iraq and against Gaddafi.

[GSLevel9]

3. 112/591 of the records involved in the raid..

were Libyans from the East.

These records DO NOT document every insurgent volunteer, just one SET of records.

In this SET of records, 112/591 of the insurgents came from Libya.

Extrapolate that and the number of Libyans fighting the US in Iraq and Afghanistan must be in the THOUSANDS.

[tabatha]

4. I shall not extrapolate without knowing

whether such an undertaking is valid.

I have read reports that Al Qaeda numbers in E Libya are very small.

[GSLevel9]

2. +1000 nt

[The Magistrate]

5. The Conclusion Does Not Follow, Sir

And some background needs noting.

Foreign fighters indeed arrived in Iraq, viewing themselves as resisting a Western invasion of Islamic lands. To pretend all who did so were dedicated al Queda radicals is similar to imagining all members of the International Brigades in Spain were Communist Party members. The area you reference is a heartland of the old Sennusi, who have a tradition of resistance to Western incursions on Islam long predating modern Islamic radicalism. Pretending this makes the present rising in Libya an expression of al Queda is foolishness on a par with the best of Pipes or Emerson. Members of the sect took the lead against the Italians in 1911, and launched attacks against England in Egypt between 1915 and 1917, then resumed resistance against Italy in the extremely vicious fighting during the 1920s in which Italy reasserted its colonial claim on the place. The old royal house was connected to the sect.

[rosesaylavee]

50. Thank you Sir.

I appreciate your post.

[aquart]

6. So we should have continued support of Gaddafi....

Oh wait.

Really fellas, you're trying to simplify what isn't simple. What TRIBES did those men come from? How many of Libya's tribes were represented by them? Get back to me when you have those numbers. Those are the ones that matter.

[Catherina]

7. The wikileaks cables substantiate this

US diplomatic staff reported extensively about this, eyewitness accounts, not hearsay. They noted that the mosques in the East preached Jihad extensively and that "un-Islamic" social and cultural organisations such as sports leagues, theatres and youth clubs had been shut down. Young men were being encouraged to undergo suicide missions against Western injustice and secular leaders like Gaddafi who were traitors to Islam. That's a real concern.

...

The cable states: "By contrast with mosques in Tripoli and elsewhere in the country, where references to jihad are extremely rare, in Benghazi and Derna they are fairly frequent subjects."

...

Another confidential cable to Washington from the US embassy in Tripoli in June 2008 described Derna as a "wellspring" of insurgent fighters and suicide bombers in Iraq.

The cable quoted a resident as saying that while "not everyone likes the bearded ones" (a reference to conservative imams), "it's jihad - it's our duty, and you're talking about people who don't have much else to be proud of".

The cable continues: "Referring to actor Bruce Willis' character in the action picture "Die Hard", who stubbornly refused to die quietly, he said many young men in Derna viewed resistance against Qadhafi's regime and against coalition forces in Iraq as an important last act of defiance."

http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/news-watch/africa/11428-libya-wikileaks-cables-warn-of-extremist-beliefs

Here's the direct link for the cables

http://cablesearch.org/ Just do a search on Benghazi. These are the two I've read so far, there are at least 60 of them

DIE HARD IN DERNA http://cablesearch.org/cable/view.php?id=08TRIPOLI430&hl=Benghazi

EXTREMISM IN EASTERN LIBYA http://cablesearch.org/cable/view.php?id=08TRIPOLI120&hl=benghazi

[Runework]

8. noooo

They will be grateful for US neocolonial intervention, just like Afghanistan was after the USSR fell...right?

[Catherina]

10. Cakewalk. Garlands of flowers. I promise you.

The most troubling and difficult aspect of xxxxxxxxxxxx's account is the pride that many eastern Libyans, particularly those in and around Derna, appear to take in the role their native sons have played in the insurgency in Iraq. The reported ability of radical imams to propagate messages urging support for and participation in jihad despite GOL security organizations' efforts suggests that claims by senior GOL officials that the east is under control may be overstated.

http://cablesearch.org/cable/view.php?id=08TRIPOLI120&hl=benghazi

[GSLevel9]

15. EVERYONE needs to READ this post and the links.

Obama and the EU are aiding a bunch of Islamic Extremists because of the precious EU OIL CONTRACTS. Gadafi threatens to sell his oil to India and China instead of mostly EU and all of a sudden France becomes a TIGER.

LMFAO.

Pure comedy, theonion couldn't outdo this.

[The Magistrate]

16. Indeed, Sir, Your Comments Are Comedy That Outdoes the Onion....

[Catherina]

17. Understandable that you prefer others not read the truth. What a shocker you poor dear

and mods before you delete my post, please make sure you see post 13. All the *sirs* and *ma'ams* in the world don't hide the ugly condescension and attacks.

[The Magistrate]

18. Quoth Jesting Pilate, Ma'am: "What Is Truth?"

Facts have no meaning in and of themselves; they take on meaning in accord with various theories by which they are organized, or marshalled for argument. It is a fact that a number of young men from this region took up arms in Iraq; that does not make it 'the truth' that the rising against Gaddahfi is a operation by al Queda, or even particularly susceptible to control by al Queda. There is a great degree of historical continuity of resistance against Western invasion located specifically in this region; what those young men did is traditional behavior. The general reason for crying up 'al Queda' is to stir an emotional response, to get people to react without thought, either for or against something, in this case, against present U.S. policy in Libya.

The invocation of dire machinations of the oil market brands the line being pressed for the nonesense it is. The oil market does not work that way; it is fungible, and what is not bought one place will be bought in another. France has a good deal of bad blood stored up with Gaddahfi over fighting in Chad, and is at present under the Presidency of a rightist leader who is being hard-pressed domestically by a figure whose stock in trade is anti-Arab sentiment: stern military action in North Africa, a traditional French sphere, is a natural for a fellow in his position.

[Catherina]

19. Automatically stopped reading after *Ma'am*. Try again. n/t

[The Magistrate]

20. You, Ma'am, Are Not The Audience Aimed At....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[Catherina]

22. Obviously not. That's the typical MO of those who can't refute truth. n/t

[The Magistrate]

24. 'Truth', Ma'am, Should Be Capitalized When Used In That Totemic Fashion....

You are not the intended audience because it is not my purpose to change your mind or your views; my intended audience is the cohort of persons who will read this exchange, and form their own conclusions about who presents a better understanding ofthe matter under discussion.

[Catherina]

26. Stopped reading after *Ma'am*. My mom used that term with her servants in the same mocking tone.

No thank you.

[The Magistrate]

29. And Yet, Ma'am, You Continue To Reply....

"Silence is the most perfect expression of scorn."

[Catherina]

30. Stopped reading after *Ma'am* again until the point sinks in and you stop this bullshit. n/t

[The Magistrate]

31. You Are Making My Point Very Well, Ma'am....

So long as you continue to do so, you please me greatly.

[Catherina]

33. There we go again. More *Ma'am" bullshit. Lame trick pony. Not reading past *Ma'am* n/t

[The Magistrate]

35. It Would Be Impolite, Ma'am, To Point Out You Are Yourself Flogging One Trick Pretty Hard Here....

[Catherina]

36. Read as far as *Ma'am*. Off to ignore now. n/t

[The Magistrate]

38. Jesus, Ma'am, That Took Long Enough....

[joshcryer]

45. Welcome to the club.

:hi:

[joshcryer]

37. The Magistrate, Sir, Your Comments Are Well Needed.

Thank you for providing them. As your intended audience I found them thoughtful.

[joshcryer]

39. Obviously it cannot be al Queda, so the meme is "susceptible to control by al Queda."

Some people truly believe an uprising by thousands of rebels and further supported by hundreds of thousands of Libyan people can somehow be coopted by al Queda presence. It is an insult, it is demeaning, and if I didn't feel like defending the perspective, I would argue that it is intrinsically racist.

There was a time when Bush would invoke al Queda every other day, many progressives never thought it amounted to anything truthful. And yet here we are seeing people invoke al Queda against a fighting force that wants to be free from a tyrant.

[The Magistrate]

47. Indeed, Sir

Even more redolent of basic racism is the 'C.I.A. plot' line trotted out on occasion in appeal to another sort of emotional susceptibility.

[PufPuf23]

42. You sadly very well be correct despite other comment from my research.

Russia, China, Brazil, India, and Germany abstained from the UNSC vote, hence 10-0 with 5 abstentions.

Libya had recently entered negotiation to sell oil to Brazil, India, and China with no oompetition from the Western nations. Itly and France are most dependent on Libyan oil and Germany buys as well.

Quadaffi had supposedly been on board regards to WMD and the WOT and had been armed by France and Italy since 2003.

I am all for a free and open democracy in Libya.

However, I would wage more innocent lives will be lost or damaged and more infrastructure damaged because of the intervention than had the issues been settled internal to Libya.

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. Let's parse this then.

Basically "supporting the democratic aspirations of an oppressed people against a brutal dictator is only a good thing so long as those aspirations are compatible with American and Western aims and interests"? This is the substance of it, it seems; self-determination is a good thing unless that self-determination takes a form which we find uncomfortable. Reminds me of something I saw engraved on a Vietnam veteran's Zippo lighter: "Let me win your heart and mind or I will burn your fucking hut down".

[The Magistrate]

11. An Often Overlooked Point, Sir

At present, this hyperventilation over al Queda in Libya has very, very shaky foundations, but there is certainly a possibility that genuinely democratic outcomes in the Near East will not be particularly friendly to the United States. The chance they will be friendly, of course, will be greater if we gave them some assistance in coming to be....

[riderinthestorm]

21. Conflating Al Qaeda with Islamists isn't true either.

The Taliban for example aren't AQ but nobody would want to live under any regime they implement. Same with the mullahs of Iran.

While some Islamists are AQ, the vast majority of them are not.

Whoever the batshit fundies are in eastern Libya, they are playing a major role in this conflict and I don't think it's silly to find out who they are.

The French, Italians, Brits and other NATO forces are looking to protect their oil sources in Libya. The US is in no position to tell them no after our own voracious rampaging in the ME for precisely the same reasons. If/when Gaddafi is unseated and a Wahhabi type government is instituted (voted in democratically, hah - snort!), I'm damn sure I won't be happy about that any part of our tax dollars went towards creating another theocratic petro-state especially if it turns out the PTB knew that was the future reality when they got started here.

[The Magistrate]

23. Again, Ma'am, What The People Want Will Not Always Be Best, For Others Or Even Themselves

Preventing fundamentalist Islamic government has been the justification for decades of autocracy in the region, and that system is breaking down at present. In situations like this two guides to action stand out. First, the more bitter the fighting necessary to overthrow a political order, the more violent and repressive the new order is likely to be. Second, a power which is seen as having assisted the overthrow of the old order will be regarded with greater friendliness than one which has opposed its overthrow, or even simply remained neutral.

There are not going to be any pretty outcomes to this, either on a regional basis, or just in the instance of Libya, but from the point of view of the United States and Western Europe, outcomes will be more palatable if we are seen as having been on the side of the changes by the people of the region.

[riderinthestorm]

25. Key phrase in your post "by the people" which if the Islamists have their way

will not include half of the people, will be directed by the Saudis, and will have a nasty habit of oppressing any other religious minority that may exist.

Your disingenuous conflation of AQ with Islamists just didn't sit well with me and that was my primary response. Dealing with your present post, I see no reason that Islamists of any sort will view the US or Europe favorably no matter how many bombs or war planes take part in ensuring their victory.

Preventing the takeover of a country by Islamic fundamentalists has been a justification by autocrats doesn't mean that that won't happen nonetheless if we help overthrow the autocrats.

Shit happens. Look at the Palestinian territories with Hamas. Look at Iran. Look at Afghanistan post-Soviet era. It's a toss-up what may follow Gaddafi and examining how OUR tax dollars are being spent in the creation of what's happening post-Gaddafi is valid, imho

[The Magistrate]

28. The Conflation Is Not Mine, Ma'am, It Is One Pressed By Those Peddling This Line

At this point, you have not a shadow of evidence for the assertion the rising in Libya is directed by Saudi Wahhabists, or in any way beholden to them, or that they will have any predominant role in what comes into being in a hypothetical post-Gaddahfi Libya.

The fact regarding the autocrats in the region at present is that they cannot continue in power without wholesale massacre of their citizens, and backing them in, or being seen as their patrons in, such actions will gain us nothing in the future. Power which rests on massacre will be met with ever increasing radicalism, and is unlikely to prevail in the long haul.

There are certainly various strains, and degrees of reasonableness, within political Islamic movements. Accommodations can be reached, and again, the easier the transition, the less likely the most radical elements will be predominant.

[riderinthestorm]

32. You are the only one on this thread bringing up AQ. Nobody else has.

You are the one who is mis-representing any misgivings about "Islamists" as "fear of AQ".

While deposing autocrats is a first rate idea, WHEN THE PEOPLE DO IT THEMSELVES, it becomes far trickier and nefarious when the world's largest superpower with the help of NATO intervenes. While nobody wants a bloodbath, there remains absolutely ZERO information that the "rebels" whomever they are, will be friendly towards the amorphous west for intervening.

In fact, we may be spending BILLIONS in Libya only to install another theocratic dumbshit petro-state. Questioning whether that may truly be a probability (because it actually HAS happened elsewhere) doesn't mean we are pro-Gaddafi. It simply means concerned US citizens, spending BILLIONS of dollars, want to know what the fuck is REALLY going on. Because frankly, if you are not suspicious about our sudden interjection into this civil war instead of the hundreds of others that could be equally "humanitarian", then I'd stipulate you aren't paying attention.

[The Magistrate]

34. People Involved In This Thread, Ma'am, Have Been At It For A While

It would be 'calling out' to name names and post up links. The document cited at the start, too, is generally taken to refer to 'al Queda in Iraq', that being the lead sponsor of foreign fighters there, and it is the number of those from eastern Libya being taken as the chief evidence the present rising is one of fundamentalist radicalism.

We agree, it would seem, that the outcome is uncertain, and may prove poor.

On the largest scale, though, it seems to me a useful advance to the state of international law that a sovereign state's mis-treatment of its own citizens has been recognized as grounds for military intervention by the Security Council. It can be a useful precedent, and could lead to greater equity in humaniarian interventions, and possibly discourage some murderous behavior by the real possibility of punishment for same.

[riderinthestorm]

40. It's been a long time since this cynic has taken anything the Security Council

says, endorses, or discusses as anything more than bloviating. YMMV but the self-interests of this group are notoriously corrupt and to read a noble purpose into their (not even unanimous) endorsement of action in Libya doesn't do you good credit imho.

The only useful precedents that have been set here, aren't necessarily honorable at all.

[The Magistrate]

43. Once Made, Ma'am, Law Sits There, Free To Any Finder

The idea that international law and international bodies had any say in how a sovereign treated its citizens has been resisted for a long time. It was a leading stumbling bloc to halting the massacres of the late Balkan wars at the end of the last century, the argument that all that went on within the boundaries of the former Yugoslavia was an internal matter, to which international humanitarian could not apply.

It is now no longer possible to make that argument; Resolution 1973 applies international law to internal acts of a sovereign state, and establishes there is both a right and a duty on the part of others to enforce that law in such a circumstance.

[joshcryer]

44. Look carefully at what the UNSC just did with respect to sovereignty, it's an amazing precedent.

I am myself no fan of the UN (I think the body at large is represented by far too many corrupt states). But R2P is powerful, and if the outcome is good in Libya (which I believe it will be) it will really reverberate throughout the worlds dictators.

[sad sally]

46. Your deductions prove once again how little we know about our

enemies before they become our enemies. Now, Dancing with the Stars, that's another matter.

[Lasher]

12. Here's a different analysis for consideration

According to the Brookings Institution, as of November 2006 there was a total of between 800 and 2,000 foreign fighters in the insurgency. Here's where they came from:



http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf
PDF required, scroll down to page 27

They based their estimates on prisoner interrogations, and on the nationalities of killed enemies when that could be determined. Then by extrapolation of those results by comparing with the estimated total number of insurgents, a reasonable estimate was produced. There is a significant margin of error, and that's why the wide range of 800 to 2,000 is cited. I believe it is quite safe to put the number at no more than 2 thousand on the dates mentioned.

[The Magistrate]

13. There, Now, Sir: You Will Only Confuse The Poor Dears

The words 'al Queda' having appeared, they just cannot control themselves....

[Lasher]

48. I am glad to see you back in form.

I have worried about your health.

[joshcryer]

41. Thank you very much Lasher.

[Lasher]

49. I remembered a discussion from three years ago.

And conjured up my response from that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1795552&mesg_id=1797865

At the time Tony Snow was trying to make us believe that we were up to our eyeballs in foreign insurgents from Iran.

[Distant Observer]

14. A Dastardly LIE. Must be a LIE since Gaddafi says the same thing.

[Waiting For Everyman]

27. How many of that HUGE number of 52 were mercs?

Oh... the "record" didn't specify that. Well I guess it doesn't matter then, does it?

This is really dumb, and it's the 2nd time it's been trotted out today.

Fine. Have it your way. No Arab countries are worthy of any democracy because terrorists come from there. There, now. Is that sufficient for you? NO DEMOCRACY FOR THEM. The US public has said so. We hope they fail. We hope they die in the streets.

YAAAAY, GADAFFI!!! :bounce: