Germany is withdrawing from NATO operations in response to intervention in Libya

[MrCoffee]

Germany isn't pulling out of the coalition enforcing UN S/Res 1973, which they never supported. They are withdrawing military assets from other NATO operations.

9.46pm: Germany is withdrawing ships and air crews in the Mediterranean Sea from various long-running Nato operations following the military alliance's decision to enforce a UN arms embargo on Libya, according to the Associated Press news agency.

Berlin isn't participating in the operation to impose a no-fly zone in Libya and abstained on the U.N. resolution authorizing it.

Because of the risk of getting drawn in, the Defence Ministry said today that Germany was putting two ships and two smaller boats with a total of some 550 sailors in the Mediterranean back under national command.

It also is pulling out between 60 and 70 German airmen from Nato Awacs surveillance aircraft involved in Operation Active Endeavor, in which the alliance monitors and escorts shipping across the Mediterranean to deter terrorist activity.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/22/libya-air-strikes-live-updates

[David__77]

1. Well then they should block NATO taking over.

Why would they facilitate NATO taking over unless they covertly supported this?

[MrCoffee]

4. Germany opposes NATO taking over...France and the US want NATO in charge

[Statistical]

2. US needs to pull out of bases in Germany.

It is a huge expenditure we can no longer afford.

[former9thward]

7. The only things the bases in Germany do is prop up the German economy.

All the food and day-to-day supplies for the bases come from German vendors. Of course the troops/families go out and spend their money in the German economy.

[Statistical]

8. Exactly. German economy gets all the benefit. US taxpayers soak up all the cost.

The cold war is over. There is no reason to be in Germany. They are big kids they can handle their own defense.

[14thColony]

27. Prop up the German economy?

You mean the most powerful economy in Europe and the second-largest exporter on the planet after China, with one of the largest industrial sectors in the developed world? I seriously doubt the overall German national economy would even notice if all the bases closed tomorrow.

[qazplm]

29. Id guess you'd be wrong

our presence:

a. provides jobs (lots of them)
b. provides consumers of German products (lots of them)
c. relieves them of almost any cost for self-defense

While I don't think Germany crumbles if we leave or any such nonsense, the idea that we aren't a strong positive for them economically isn't accurate.

[14thColony]

30. Sure about that?

Let's say there are 300,000 US DoD-associated people in Germany (and that's probably a bit on the high end, as there are less that 60,000 actual uniformed personnel stationed in Germany)

The population of Germany is about 82,000,000, so 300,000 people represents 0.36% of the population. In other words if they all left tomorrow, 99.64% of the people in Germany would still be there. The per capita income in Germany is about $36,000 as of 2010. Given that, in my experience, the majority of military stationed in Germany are junior to mid-level enlisted, mostly living on base (usually mandatory if unmarried) and thus not collecting COLA or OHA, I would hazard to guess that the median income of those 300,000 Americans (many of whom will be unemployed family members) would be at or probably below the per capita German income. So if hypothetically those 300,000 Americans were figured into the German per capita calculation, their departure could even RAISE the German per capita income figure.

Next up, budgets for bases: IIRC, the operating budget for Ramstein AB for facilities, contracting, services, all those things that could be expected to affect the local economy, runs about $300 million a year. Let's raise that to $500 million a year to take into account the spending power of the 50,000 or so people in the greater Kaiserslautern Military Community. Let's say the 10 largest military communities (and there aren't even ten large ones left) have the same spending power. So that's $5 billion in spending power in the local economy. Now let's quadruple it just because I probably forgot to carry a 1 somewhere. That's $20 billion. Oh hell, let's double that too. So let's use $40 billion (that's over 7% of the base DoD budget for FY10, so that's surely a massive overestimate, but what the heck).

Germany's GDP in 2010 was $3.306 trillion. So even assuming that over 7% of the FY10 DoD budget was directly injected into the Germany economy with a 0dB loss, that still represents only 1.2% of Germany's GDP in 2010. So realistically we're probably well under one percent in the real world, and not even all of that is actually going into the German economy!

So let's review:
a. provides jobs (lots of them) -- from my experience I'd estimate about half of those jobs are a) reserved for dependent family members, or b) can only be held by U.S. persons; and the number of jobs we bring compared to the overall German economy? Seriously? Even then they're often fairly run-of-the mill services jobs that aren't going to match the German per capita income level (even been to the PX at Graf?).

b. provides consumers of German products (lots of them) -- a mere 0.36% of the population; 99.64% of the customers will still be there the day after we're all gone. Even then that 0.36% is spending a LARGE chunk of its money in the PX/BX system and at the commissaries.

c. relieves them of almost any cost for self-defense -- that's where you definitely went over the top. The German defense budget in 2009 was $48 billion, or 1.3% of GDP, which was a DECLINE from 2005, when it was 1.5% of GDP. Nonetheless that was still enough to make them #6 in defense spending in the world. So if our presence "relieves them of almost any cost for self-defense," it appears they didn't get the memo.

So while LOCAL communities would be rocked badly by the closure of the big bases, I stand by my assertion that the German economy writ large would have a hard time even noticing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
http://siadapp.dmdc.osd.mil/personnel/MILITARY/history/hst0709.pdf
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiserslautern_Military_Community
http://www.globemaster.de/germanybases.html
http://www.kiplinger.com/columns/washington/archives/overseas-bases-in-budget-crosshairs.html

[bluestate10]

9. I agree. There are plenty of eastern european nations that want the

bases, at lower costs to the US.

[loudsue]

11. Screw that! We need to quit having bases every damned where.

We need to spend our money AT HOME.

[sad sally]

12. Amen!

#1 Today the U.S. military has over 700 bases (some say it is actually over 1000 bases) in 130 different countries around the globe. It is estimated that it costs about $100 billion a year to maintain these bases.

#2 The U.S. military budget for 2010 was $693 billion.

#3 However, when you throw in all "off budget" items and other categories of "defense" spending not covered in the Pentagon budget you get a grand total of somewhere between $1.01 and $1.35 trillion spent on national defense in 2010.

#4 The truth is that U.S. military spending is greater than the military spending of China, Russia, Japan, India, and the rest of NATO combined.

#5 Total U.S. military spending makes up approximately 44 percent of all the military spending on the entire globe.

#6 The Pentagon currently gobbles up 56 percent of all discretionary spending by the federal government.

#7 Together, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan cost more than $150 billion a year.

#8 Up to this point, it is estimated that the U.S. government has spent over 373 billion dollars on the war in Afghanistan.

#9 Up to this point, it is estimated the the U.S. government has spent over 745 billion dollars on the war in Iraq.

#10 Since 2001, the total cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan breaks down to $3,644 for every man, woman and child in the United States.

#11 The total price tag for each F-22 fighter jet is approximately $350 million.

#12 The Sustainable Defense Task Force has produced a report which shows that the U.S. could easily slash a trillion dollars from the defense budget over the next ten years.

[3lyford]

25. +1

[loudsue]

35. Great post!

It's enough to make you sick how much GOOD could be done with that money, instead of throwing our tax dollars around the globe for violence.

[and-justice-for-all]

16. I highly doubt that any country feels they need to be

occupied by any foreign nation. Embassies are fine, but the US military bases need to be closed; it would save us millions.

[and-justice-for-all]

14. Most US international bases should be closed....nt

[Puregonzo1188]

19. You know I've always been opposed to our overseas bases, but you almost change my mind.

Trying to punish Germany for refusing to take part in a military adventure is sickening. Reminds me of the Freedom Fries bullshit. Today I saw another DUer talking about cut and running. Really shocking.

As if pulling out our military bases are some sort of punishment.

[Duende azul]

24. Oooh Yessss!! Pull out of all countries that aren't going to war with the US.

The world would be a better place.

Start with Latin America and Middle East, the places where currently most damage is done.

[mmonk]

3. Things sure change over time.

[malaise]

5. I never thought I write this but

Bravo Germany - run the bases out of your country as well. Enough with the war machine!!

[SoCalDem]

6. They are protecting their wealth.

[Duende azul]

22. Nope. They have no mandate from parliament for the Libya assault.

It´s not like Obama going to war without congress.

In my book it`s a good think, when Germans respect the constitution this time.
(They already violated it with the assaults on Yugoslavia and Afghanistan as well with their logistical support for Americas wars of aggression against Iraq).

[Statistical]

10. Why would Germany run the bases = multi billion subsidy for their economy

out of their country?

:rofl:

I mean really? As long as US taxpayers are willing to dump billions into their economy they will gladly take it.

[reorg]

13. You will hear a big round of applause in Germany

when the US military leaves. It's utterly ridiculous to assume that losing a few service jobs will threaten one of the largest economies in the world.

Unfortunately, they won't abandon their bases any time soon. They need them for their ongoing and future wars in Central Asia and the Middle East.

[Statistical]

17. Germany is a sovreign country they could request that we leave at any time.

What is the US going to go to war with a nuclear powered ally to force them to accept our help. Really?

We are in Germany because Germany wants us in Germany. Maybe not 100% of populace but enough to keep electing politicians who support keeping the bases open.

[Duende azul]

23. What nuclear powered ally?

[reorg]

31. Since 1998, to be exact

Yes, Germany could now request them to leave, but we have been living under occupation for 50 years and gotten used to it. We are and want to be part of a strong "alliance", the "transatlantic partnership". Although it is militarily obsolete - there is no one the Germans would need to be defended against, and the economic benefits are negligible - being part of the club of the powerful serves as today's substitute for the blind nationalism that has been thoroughly rooted out after the war, thankfully.

Still, there are political opponents of NATO, the Greens started out as anti-NATO pacifists before they let go of their principles in the nineties, if only for merely tactical reasons, now there is the Left Party. Already, there have been large troop reductions since the early nineties. Frankfurt, formerly home of the European Command, is now completely free of US troops - I have yet to see any detrimental effects to the city and its inhabitants.

This is where I grew up (map):

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub8D05117E1AC946F5BB438374CCC294CC/Doc~E48E59CA6D45C41D9A841651777748036~ATpl~Ecommon~SMed.html

First we lived in Rüdesheimer Straße, later in Darmstadt-Eberstadt. As you can see in the map, we were surrounded by American villages. I crossed them daily on my way to school (Lichtenberg-Schule). After 9/11 these villages were shut off from public access, surrounded by huge fences. More than ever before you felt like you were living in an occupied country. A few years later, the Americans decided to close down this location. Local officials were enthusiastic:

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub8D05117E1AC946F5BB438374CCC294CC/Doc~E48E59CA6D45C41D9A841651777748036~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

The head of the city's construction department says (paraphrased) "We are sad that the Americans are leaving because we have become friends with many of them. But these areas are urgently needed for private and commercial construction. We have to construct 600 units every year to keep up with the growth of the population. Now that door is open."

[Bluenorthwest]

15. You do know how those bases got there, right?

Just hilarious stuff. WW2 was a laugh riot. Many Germans want the bases gone. Have for decades.

[Duende azul]

18. Not the whole picture.

Seems they offer to get more involved in Afghanistan, to set free troops of the nations attacking Libya.

[Major Hogwash]

20. Good for them. NATO sucked bigtime back in the 90s, and still does.

Name the last time NATO did anything right?

[JVS]

21. OMG! Germany doesn't care about innocent civilians being genocided! Oh noes!

[Duende azul]

26. OMG. There is a war, Germany doesn´t want to start. What's become of them?

Oh the irony, Americans complaining that Germany has no enthusiasm to go to war. And its the third time! (Iraq 1, Iraq 2, Libya).
Had they also denied to help bombing Yugoslavia and to go to Afghanistan, they would be barely recognizable, would they?

[Catherina]

28. The charade is unraveling sooner than even I had imagined.

So much for the US having been dragged *reluctantly* into this. Other nations don't appreciate being maneuvered into giving cover for our adventures in the Middle East. Unlike us they actually have to answer to their people because they can't count on two-party bipartisan elections.

For the first time in Middle East history, we had the opportunity to side with the people. We blew it in Palestine, we blew it in Tunisia, we blew it in Egypt (so much so in both places that the Youth Coalitions denounced us and refused to meet with Hillary Clinton), we blew it in Pakistan, Jordan, Afghanistan, Iraq, we're blowing it in Yemen, Bahrain, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Syria. How many more are left? We already know how Iran feels about us.

I'm going to start counting how many press spokesmen we go through.

Germany, I only have one thing to say to you mein Liebling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1BKxYyJJJ4

[seabeyond]

37. i dont think germany's decision has anythig to do with your position. my opinion only

but i see it more a isolationist, self interest mode. they are being consistent

[blindpig]

41. As always...

your musical selections are superb.

I wouldn't say that they are blowing it though, that assumes that they want to do right by the people. Of course that isn't the case and it seems that 'adequate cover' is no longer a priority. I suspect that desperation weighs more than the typical arrogance in this, the house of cards teeters.

[PurityOfEssence]

32. 70 years ago this Thursday, Rommel started his first offensive in Libya

Maybe they remember the outcome.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Glad to see that the Germans realize the Cold War is over.

Hopefully, some day, we might realize that maintaining the farce of being the "world's only superpower" is too goddam expensive and hopeless to boot.

[HEyHEY]

34. Ya never know if the Germans oppose war on principle or if its just not on a big enough scale.....

For them.

I kid, that's an old joke.

[seabeyond]

36. germany is very much in isolationist mode. it is serving them well. nt

[ProSense]

38. Germany is withdrawing from the Mediterranean and

boosting support in Afghanistan

Germany Withdraws From NATO Naval Patrols

BERLIN — Germany, already at odds with its European allies and Washington over its decision not to support a United Nations no-fly zone over Libya, said on Wednesday it was withdrawing four vessels from NATO operations in the Mediterranean because it did not want to be dragged into a military role in the region, Defense Minister Thomas de Maizière, said on Wednesday.

The decision means that Germany will withdraw two frigates and two support vessels with a total of 550 sailors from NATO’s command and place them under its own orders. It was made after the NATO secretary general, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, announced that the alliance would monitor sea traffic in the region and intercept vessels suspected of carrying illegal arms or mercenaries to Libya.

<...>

Germany already has 4,700 troops serving in Afghanistan, despite the growing unpopularity the war.

“We want to relieve the strain on NATO by putting our German troops back into planes over there,” Mr. de Maizière said. “This would be a genuine relief for NATO and a political sign of our solidarity with our allies, particularly against the backdrop of recent events in Libya.”

UPDATE 1-Germany to boost NATO in Afghanistan

BERLIN, March 23 (Reuters) - Germany on Wednesday approved plans to supply crews for NATO surveillance aircraft over Afghanistan and withdraw staff from the Mediterranean to avoid military involvement in Libya.

Chancellor Angela Merkel's cabinet endorsed sending up to 300 German AWACS aerial reconnaissance personnel to Afghanistan, government sources said, under a policy of easing the burden on NATO while refusing to take part in strikes on Libya.

The government has come under fire at home for breaking ranks with NATO allies the United States, France and Britain when it abstained last week in a U.N. Security Council resolution authorising the Libyan action.

Defence Minister Thomas de Maiziere said Germans would be withdrawn from AWACS reconnaissance aircraft over the Mediterranean but denied this was a direct exchange.

<...>

[Baclava]

39. Auf Wiedersehen!

Prost!




that's the extent of my German

[Taitertots]

40. A people who know the horrors of war won't take part in the destruction of a third world nation

While the biggest cheerleaders sit on their fat American asses 6,000 miles away and know nothing about the horrors we are visiting upon people who did nothing to provoke us.