Is Obama working "Stealth" for Progressive Ideals? ARISTEDE RETURNS TO HAITI"

[KoKo]

Did Obama allow Aristede to "slip into Haiti?"

Here:

http://www.democracynow.org/

[Demeter]

1. Obama wasn't paying attention

The people who wanted to eat Haiti were BUSH BUDDIES. Bill Clinton would have kept on top of it, he and Poppy are BBF. I don't think the O man has strong ties to Clinton, Secretary of State notwithstanding. But then, I'm not sure Hillary supports Bill's world vision anymore, either.

[KoKo]

2. I think that Obama is playing something very good here, diplomatically.." Or "Good Cop/Bad Cop."

Before he left for his South American Tour he told Asristede to NOT COME BACK. But, while Obama was "otherwise occupied" Aristede did return to Haiti after the long years since President Clinton threw him out and Haiti went into such terrible decline topped off by the Earthquake which left them all homeless living in the open with little food, water or means of supporting themselves.

That Obama said "NO MAS, ASRISTED" but then took off might have been Obama's diplomatic way of ALLOWING Aristede to Come Back and defying the Clinton Doctrinaires who just wan the American Red Cross ...HAHAHAHA...to be left to Rebuild Haiti!

Obama is showing incredible Diplomatic Finesse in how he carefully allowed Aristede to come back over our SOS and former President's wishes..that were their policy.

Let's give Obama some credit here for this "smooth action."

[Demeter]

4. Where's your

:sarcasm: smilie?

[KoKo]

21. Actually I was trying to be Hopeful...about our President....

I'd given up on him...but there are still some folks around here who think he's the greatist "Cat's Meow"...so I figured maybe he REALLY IS playing that "Three Dimensional Chess...or Quadripital Chess or whatever...and I got him figured wrong? :shrug: If that makes sense.....probably not... but I'll give a little glimmer of hope to him.. this last time!

[sabrina 1]

11. Just one correction. Bush Sr. ousted Aristede first. Clinton

was the one who helped restore him, airc. The Bush Jr was behind the coup that ousted him the second time, unleashing violence during which over 5,000 people died.

The Wikileaks cables reveal that is was the U.S. who prevented him from returning.

I don't if Obama is simply looking the other way, or if things are so bad there now, thanks to our meddling among other things, and the fact that the people still wanted him back, not that that ever mattered, plus the world has been paying a little more attention to Haiti these days, that once he said he was coming back, and the world now knows about the U.S coups, everyone is looking the other way.

The U.S. recently stated that they didn't think it was 'helpful' for Aristede to return at this time. Can't remember if that was Obama, Hillary or someone else. And I don't know what business it is of ours what he does, since his own people elected him, and I would think, proponents of democracy as we are, we would recognize his right, even as a citizen, never mind an elected president, to be in his own country.

I hope he is safe there, but he has many enemies there still.

[KoKo]

25. Yes, you are correct on that, sorry. It's Clinton's deal with Haiti to force them to import Arkansas

rice rather than growing their own...that I'd read that he's now said it was a terrible decision.

What I've recently read is that Clinton and Poppy still want Haiti to compete for low wage jobs in other areas as part of Globilization. I couldn't find anything else about allowing them to grow their own rice...but article I read said they have to import 80% of rice which is a product they used to grow for themselves. Here's the link to the article about the rice:

http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/01/how-washingtons-plot-against-haiti-worsened-the-disaster/

Anyway...why the "Powers that Be" were so against Aristede returning could be seen as either he would be disruptive to their plans for whichever dictator they want to support...or just an inconvenience remains to be seen. I note that Amy Goodman is thrilled with his return. She was really emotionally overwhelmed in her report and accompanied him on the plan for his return. She might know something more about this.

[sabrina 1]

59. Thank you, and yes, Clinton reinstalled him but didn't help

him much either. The policies were the same, just a difference of opinion on whether they could be achieved with or without Aristedes.

The crime of having taken away Haiti's most important export is incalculable.

I don't know what our problem is that we cannot envision countries like Haiti doing well and under a democratic system. Certainly our way has been disastrous for them.

I truly hope that soon this country will start rethinking its brutal policies of supporting and installing dictators all over the world and start trying to live up to the ideals we spout but which have become nothing but words. Our actions, now exposed around the world, are who we are, sadly.

[EFerrari]

28. Obama personally called the South African president twice

to urge him not to allow Aristide to fly.

[villager]

3. Pretty goddamn stealthy, all right...

n/t

[Billy Burnett]

5. JP Aristide's political party (the largest in Haiti) was still banned from the election.

Party Famni Lavalas was banned by Hil's Provisional Electoral Council. Hands down, they would have won the election easily - especially so if Aristide had been there, or if Haitians knew he would be there.

Haiti is a UN - World Bank - IMF colony. :puke:

[Bluerthanblue]

6. since when did Pres. Obama have control over Haiti?

:shrug:

[ReggieVeggie]

7. The US has pretty much controlled Haiti since it's beginning

[catgirl]

8. Wrong- France controlled Haiti n/t

[vaberella]

9. Wrong...we gained our independence from France in 1804.

And even then it was the French for a short time in comparison to the Spanish influence in Haiti. However, they are the ones we gained our independence from so they're a far more important and more well known relationship. America has been involved intimately in Haitian politics for about a 80-90 years now, mainly to dispel the advancement of German citizenship and power gain in Haiti during the early 1900s. They are the ones who actually established the Haitian military during the 30s I believe. Also, they have aided in the destruction of vital resources in Haiti.

[catgirl]

13. Read what I was commenting on please

I responded to the post that claims the U.S. has controlled Haiti from the beginning.

[vaberella]

16. I just did. So excuse my post. n/t

[Matariki]

29. Vaberella, ou ayisyen? m' renmen Ayiti!

Are you Haitian? :hi:

[vaberella]

39. Oui mwen Ayitien. Ou se ayitien? Oh, c'est jolie ca.

I'm about to speak french because writing in creole is not my skill---since I wasn't raised in Haiti.

[Matariki]

50. ...

No, I'm not Haitian, I just love and respect the culture and history. I've been there but not since the earthquake. I have friends and family in Jakmèl.

I apologize, I don't speak French and I'm only just learning Kreyol. Some day I'll learn french :-)

Were you born there, or in the US?

[vaberella]

57. I was born in Haiti. Port-au-Prince---but my family comes from Jacmel/Ti Riviere.

And I was raised in the US. If we talked by phone I would speak Kreyol with you. How are you handling learning Kreyol. It's not an easy language at all. The contractions are murderizers.

[Matariki]

63. "The contractions are murderizers."

:rofl:

yeah, I can definitely handle reading it better than speaking. I try, but I'm sure I mangle pronunciation. Overall though I think it's easier than French - no multiple gender nouns and pronouns to memorize and embarrass oneself with.

Jacmel is nice, but a friend who was there this summer said things are still a heartbreaking mess.

It's good to hear your political perspective about what's going on in Haiti.

[vaberella]

10. Nope, US has TRIED to control Haiti since around the 1920s. n/t

[EFerrari]

49. The US occupied Haiti from 1915-1934. n/t

[vaberella]

55. That's true. Thanks for the specific date. n/t

[peacetalksforall]

19. Yes, from the begnning and reinforced in the Aristede coup. It was all by plan.

Especially - US, France, World Bank, IMF - as if they were getting ready for something - to start oil drilling in the waters off the coast? Or more?

They had mercenaries waiting in the Dominican Republic that rushed in on a slaughter mission. They had to airlift him out - they couldn't kill him too many people stood behind him.

The World Bank was already on the scene. They (all of them) told him they were saving him.

[Matariki]

26. Sorry, no. Not by a long shot. Haitian history is fascinating, btw.

[vaberella]

62. Hey you can pm me.

I have issues talking about Haiti on sites like this. Because what the media is given in this country is very off. And the defense of Aristide makes my blood boil. Especially with all the wrong this man had done. Whatever...

[Matariki]

65. The media in this country is off on so many things, so that's no surprise really.

Your input really is valuable, but I can understand you not wanting to talk Haitian politics here.

[EFerrari]

41. Haiti is the only occupied country in this hemisphere.

And the US ousted Aristide and kept him out of this hemisphere for the last seven years. The US has pretty much controlled Haiti since the last time it was occupied, by the Marines, iirc. That ended physically in 1934 but in fact, Haiti has never been very far out of US control. Our government won't allow that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti

[malaise]

12. Aristide said he went home when he did because

he was not sure if the incoming leader would withdraw his passport and prevent him from returning home.

[vaberella]

15. I know Madame Manigat, if President, most definitely would revoke it.

And they can still tell him to get the fuck out.

[malaise]

22. How can they tell a citizen to leave

Makes no sense

[vaberella]

37. This is Haiti. There are no strict laws in Haiti.

Haiti is relatively hoodlum-like. If they want you out...they will have you get out or they'll force you out in some way. And if you don't leave, they could do something to you. Would there be an investigation? Hardly.

[vaberella]

14. As a Haitian American-----my heart breaks that this man is back in Haiti.

He's not only evil, but destructive to the nation. He was one of the worst Presidents in Haiti---and we've had our share. But in any case, he's going back to Haiti at his own peril. He may end up dead and not because of anything to do with America. Haitian people are very vengeful. And people who are of the coup d'etat ----rarely make it through. The coup d'etat was not funded or pushed by the US government. It was done by the people and military of Haiti.

[tkmorris]

20. I would love to hear more from you on this

Yours is not the point of view I hear most often expressed about Aristide, however as a Haitian American I am certain that you are far better informed than I am. Could you perhaps explain in further detail why you believe Aristide to have been such a terrible leader? It would make an excellent OP in my opinion.

[KoKo]

24. +1...I would also like to hear more.... Some links and discussion.

[vaberella]

34. Unlike what so many people like to hear and what is expressed in the OP...

Well that's one thing. I don't like putting my personal information out there--but I had family who worked for the man----in high ranking position. Not to mention some of his staunchest supporters, like Jean Dominique's family---particularly Michele Montas, who turned on him and he was later killed after countless criticisms of Aristide. They saw him as a force and then after the exile in the United States---he became the "lap-dog" of the US---and this is coming from Michele Montas who I personally met with when I worked for a Haitian non-profit organization. So while so many praised Aristide and US liberals make him out to be some hero forced out of the country---she and people I know say he was extremely destructive to Haiti's future and needed to be ousted.

[KoKo]

23. You preferred when Clinton pushed him out and sent him into exile?

How's that Poppy Bush/Clinton Initiative working out for the people of Haiti, these days. Media is on lock down about what's going on...but last I heard from Democracy Now...there weren't enough tents to go around and that Cholera was spreading...ready to wipe out thousands more.

How's that going in Haiti...since you are so close to the people there and your heart has been broken by it all?

[vaberella]

27. Are you Haitian? Cause I don't think you understand.

There are a lot of dynamics and nuances to what goes on in Haiti that you do not get in the US. Makes it doubly difficult to get accurate accounts when journalists could end up dead just by walking down the street. If Wyclef Jean is getting shot at...outsiders don't have a clue.

[Dappleganger]

38. Oh btw...

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/gossip/2011/03/wyclef-jean-haiti-shot-glass-vanel-lacroix.html

Looks like he didn't.

[vaberella]

42. I know he was shot in the hand.

I read the report a few days ago and I think it was from the wsj. If I implied he was gunned down. No, the implication was to show the level of violence in Haiti and it doesn't matter who you are.

[Dappleganger]

44. It wasn't even that bad.

The doctors said it was a piece of glass.

[EFerrari]

31. You are in the small minority. And you might want to read up

on the coup. Not only was it carried out by US Special OPs but the fake insurgents that were supposedly coming for Aristide before the coup had their leadership trained in Ecuador by the US, too.

The people of Haiti did not want Aristide out. That's just flat out wrong. And the best evidence is the 17% turnout in this last election, with the 70% of the electorate that belong to his party abstaining.

Haitians welcomed President Aristide back by the tens of thousands

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. Are you from Haiti too? n/t

[EFerrari]

43. No but during the earthquake, I realized I didn't know anything about it

and tried to fix that with the help of some DUers and others.

[vaberella]

35. You don't have to tell me about the coup. My uncles were there during the coup.

While you're getting your news from reporters. I get mine from people who lived it.

[EFerrari]

46. Well, I'm getting mine from people who also lived it,

like the driver who was forced into that plane with the Aristides by US Special forces. He returned with the Aristides the other day and was interviewed on Democracy Now! And of course, by people like Randall Robinson and Maxine Waters and Amy Goodman who rescued the Aristides from where they had been dumped in the Central African Republic.

On the training of the fake insurgents, a la the Contras in Nicaragua, I'd have to go look up the source as it doesn't come immediately to mind.

I had uncles in El Salvador during the civil war. They swore there were no US-backed, military death squads. They were as wrong as possible, of course.

[vaberella]

48. Ah those people. I see.

I get mine from the people who were getting shot at by stray bullets, and although I have no ties to the driver. I'm not going to give out more information---I hate talking about Haiti, mainly because I'd give to give out too much of my personal information on the net. Don't underestimate the knowledge of my uncles---you don't know their access to information--nor did I disclose their occupations. You can get your story from the driver and Aristide telling their stories--I'm not knocking them. But I'm getting mine from people who don't get television air time nor any special recognition, and some of them worked at Maison Blanche/Palais Nationale.

[EFerrari]

54. As I said, I have uncles who swear on their ARENA memberships

there were no death squads in El Salvador.

I'm afraid you are more impressed by yours than I am. :)

[vaberella]

58. Possibly.

edited for too much info.

[in_cog_ni_to]

32. Thank you for your input on this matter! If anyone should know what actually

happened, it's you. It's nice not to have the facts twisted to fit whatever scenario someone wants them to fit. Again, Thank you! We had posts here the other day welcoming him "home." Now, we find out the man was evil, destructive to Haiti and one of the worst Presidents Haiti has ever had! Fascinating, to say the least. Thanks for setting us straight.

[vaberella]

47. Keep in mind I'm not living in Haiti.

I get my information directly from my family members. And people I know who did work for the man.

[in_cog_ni_to]

53. I understand. Getting info from family members is better than

getting it from people who aren't actually there living it.

[EFerrari]

51. Um, you have one opinion on the man vs. the 70% of the electorate

that still supports him and his party. :)

[in_cog_ni_to]

56. Um, I have NO opinion of the man. I know NOTHING about the situation in Haiti.

I was responding to Vaberella. She has family there. That's who she gets her information from. I'd rather listen to people who actually LIVE there and know what's going on though.

[EFerrari]

60. I was referring to the opinion you got from her, not your own

which you haven't stated.

[vaberella]

61. Really? How did they get that number?

People can't even vote in most of Haiti---can't even read. They don't even have electricity. in effect, most people are being told who to vote for. Unless the electorate is ONLY in Port-au-Prince. But it's whatever.

[EFerrari]

64. Presumably from the difference between eligible voters and turnout.

Here's a few links for you. Apparently the turnout for this fake election was under 18%.

Haiti Abstains
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x50053

Michel Martelly, Aristide's weak imitator
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/mar/22/haiti-jean-bertrand-aristide?CMP=twt_gu

CEPR live blog of the election:
http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/relief-and-reconstruction-watch/election-day-in-haiti-live-updates

[Dappleganger]

40. I lived in Haiti for a summer while Baby Doc was in full swing.

You think Aristede was worse than Baby Doc and his thug daddy??

[vaberella]

45. Hardly. Well not Baby Doc.

Baby Doc himself wasn't even in power really. It was his mother and the gaggle of ministry men who were really running the country after Papa Doc died. Early on in the game many people actually supported Papa Doc. As my mother stated--most everyone was a Duvalierist. It wasn't until his thugs went too far, and lasted too long that things went sour. And I'm not condoning that.

I have little care about Baby Doc. The man was a kid when he went into power and he was a political puppet. If the clowns that were alive in the ministry were still alive today---they deserve most of the mistreatment than Baby Doc. I don't waste my time on child powers since they never make any decisions. Well not this guy anyway.

[al_liberal]

17. We here all know that Obama plays...

infinite-order samurai ninja jujitsu chess so he probably had this all thought out back when he was playing baseball in Hawaii.

[Catherina]

18. Stealth progressive ideals? How about overt ones?

'Aristide is the past. Haitians must look to the future.' - US state dept tweet.

[Octafish]

30. Pretty tricky, considering Obama called Zuma and asked him not to let Aristide leave South Africa.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110317/pl_afp/haitipoliticsaristidesafricausobama_20110317154255

Power to the powerful.

[Marr]

36. lmao... right.

Twenty-dimensional chess. How could I have been so wrong.

[undeterred]

52. He's playing Chutes and Ladders.