Now I was just thinking the other day

[PhillySane]

that maybe Obama should learn a little from history. You know, that first George Bush enforced a no-fly zone over Iraq. Then, that second George Bush went and invaded Iraq because he thought they had nu-ki-lar weapons. Turns out, they didn't! But he just kept right on invadin'. We are still in Iraq today, and it all started with a no-fly zone. I'm just afraid that one no-fly zone leads to, well, you know. Endless war. What about you?

[tabatha]

1. I highly respect this person's opinion - not so much yours.

Top Ten Ways that Libya 2011 is Not Iraq 2003

Posted on 03/22/2011 by Juan

Here are the differences between George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq in 2003 and the current United Nations action in Libya:

1. The action in Libya was authorized by the United Nations Security Council. That in Iraq was not. By the UN Charter, military action after 1945 should either come as self-defense or with UNSC authorization. Most countries in the world are signatories to the charter and bound by its provisions.

2. The Libyan people had risen up and thrown off the Qaddafi regime, with some 80-90 percent of the country having gone out of his hands before he started having tank commanders fire shells into peaceful crowds. It was this vast majority of the Libyan people that demanded the UN no-fly zone. In 2002-3 there was no similar popular movement against Saddam Hussein.

3. There was an ongoing massacre of civilians, and the threat of more such massacres in Benghazi, by the Qaddafi regime, which precipitated the UNSC resolution. Although the Saddam Hussein regime had massacred people in the 1980s and early 1990s, nothing was going on in 2002-2003 that would have required international intervention.

4. The Arab League urged the UNSC to take action against the Qaddafi regime, and in many ways precipitated Resolution 1973. The Arab League met in 2002 and expressed opposition to a war on Iraq. (Reports of Arab League backtracking on Sunday were incorrect, based on a remark of outgoing Secretary-General Amr Moussa that criticized the taking out of anti-aircraft batteries. The Arab League reaffirmed Sunday and Moussa agreed Monday that the No-Fly Zone is what it wants).

5. None of the United Nations allies envisages landing troops on the ground, nor does the UNSC authorize it. Iraq was invaded by land forces.

6. No false allegations were made against the Qaddafi regime, of being in league with al-Qaeda or of having a nuclear weapons program. The charge is massacre of peaceful civilian demonstrators and an actual promise to commit more such massacres.

7. The United States did not take the lead role in urging a no-fly zone, and was dragged into this action by its Arab and European allies. President Obama pledges that the US role, mainly disabling anti-aircraft batteries and bombing runways, will last “days, not months” before being turned over to other United Nations allies.

8. There is no sectarian or ethnic dimension to the Libyan conflict, whereas the US Pentagon conspired with Shiite and Kurdish parties to overthrow the Sunni-dominated Baathist regime in Iraq, setting the stage for a prolonged and bitter civil war.

9. The US has not rewarded countries such as Norway for entering the conflict as UN allies, but rather a genuine sense of outrage at the brutal crimes against humanity being committed by Qaddafi and his forces impelled the formation of this coalition. The Bush administration’s ‘coalition of the willing’ in contrast was often brought on board by what were essentially bribes.

10. Iraq in 2002-3 no longer posed a credible threat to its neighbors. A resurgent Qaddafi in Libya with petroleum billions at his disposal would likely attempt to undermine the democratic experiments in Tunisia and Egypt, blighting the lives of millions.


http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/top-ten-ways-that-libya-2011-is-not-iraq-2003.html

[tblue]

2. Being this rude doesn't exactly make me respect you much either.

The arrogance.

[Orrex]

3. Haven't been on DU much tonight, have you?

[tabatha]

4. I was not rude. I disagree with what the OP said.

Also, the OP poster was locked for being highly disrespectful to the President - far worse than my saying that I do not respect that.

[Orrex]

5. The reason I don't respect you is that you have three A's in your name

Really, two should be enough for anyone, you unrespectable, A-greedy zealot.

[tabatha]

6. LOL What are you doing with two Rs.

And an X. Good grief. Off to the back of the class.

[bobbolink]

7. Yeah, the truth is soooo rude .... and arrogant.

[PhillySane]

8. Well in my personal opinion

100 tomahawk missiles are pretty rude and arrogant. But that's just my personal opinion.

[Orrex]

9. But 100 tomahawk missiles aren't a direct and willful violation of DU's TOS

For that matter, neither is a discussion of 100 tomahawk missiles against the TOS.


So what's the problem?

[PhillySane]

10. I refuse to be led back there

[snappyturtle]

15. Ah, come on. I thought you were quite specific in the parameters of

your comparisons between Iraq and Libya. Tell me if I am wrong. Did you not simply state that you fear that one no fly zone with very lingering circumstances (Iraq) might re-occur in Libya now that a no fly zone has been instituted there? The Juan Cole treatise is over-kill for your op.

BTW...I fear it too. imho

[PhillySane]

20. Well unfortunately

only time will tell. I will state, once again, unequivocally, I believe, and so sorry if this pisses anyone out there off, WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER!

[snappyturtle]

26. Well fortunately

it doesn't piss me off.....we're not alone.

[PhillySane]

27. Gotcha!

[Quantess]

36. I agree.

And, I can't believe how many DUers think invading Libya is a good idea.

[PhillySane]

14. god forbid

[bobbolink]

11. Nobody aimed missles at you. A post was presented detailing how Libya is different from Iraq.

THAT was not an ATTACK.

It was information for your consideration.

But you chose to attack the poster.

PEACE. Let it begin at DU.

Thank you.

[PhillySane]

13. I was the walrus

but now I live on

[PhillySane]

16. That's all I'm sayin!

you know, give peace a chance, and all that.

100 tomahawks? shit.

[bobbolink]

19. And all I'm saying is that it begins at HOME... and at DU.

Aiming verbal Tomahawks doesn't qualify,

THINK about it.

YOU are responsible for the verbal missiles you launch.

[PhillySane]

22. OKAY

I launched one at our president. No one else. I honestly didn't think, in this country, that was a punishable offense. Guess I was wrong. (I'd do it again in a heartbeat)

[Orrex]

30. You agreed to the Terms of Service when you joined DU

One of the rules expressly forbids the kind of outburst that you demonstrated, and another rule forbids multiple threads restarting locked/deleted topics.


So are you angry that the rules apply to you?

[PhillySane]

32. Do the rules say I can't disagree with the president?

[Orrex]

33. No. Why would you think otherwise?

[PhillySane]

37. Well, in my mind

that's all I was doin'. Wasn't tryin' to piss off anybody directly here. It was all focused on him. Sorry if you took it otherwise.

[Orrex]

38. Hey, it's not about how I took it

For the record, I've had posts deleted for exactly the same reason that you did.

Of course, I didn't follow up with a barrage of threads to complain about it, but that's just me.

[PhillySane]

40. I posted once to say that I was shocked

by the fact that my remark towards the president took me off the boards. Truly, I was. And, I will say it again, if the mood is right. Cause, this is America. Dig it. Who the ---- is he?

[in_cog_ni_to]

41. Truly. The last I heard, the man is employed by

WE THE PEOPLE. I remember the idiot-in-chief and Cheney regime AND their supporters trying to silence people all the time. This is Deja Vu all over again!

[revolutionnow45]

17. nice list

:applause:

[bobbolink]

23. Yes, and it would be even nicer if people would meditate on it and consider it.

:shrug:

[bobbolink]

28. Thank you for posting that whole list... I have sent it on to many.

May I suggeest.... that this list needs to be sent to "progressive" talk show hosts... David Sirota, first, and Ed Schultz (who backs the no fly zone, but was surprised to know that it isn't like Iraq), and all the rest of them.

That way, if they listen at all, it will reach the ears of many more.

Thank you!! :yourock:

[Runework]

44. Juan Cole's agenda?

I tried posting a response (a polite and short one) on his blog, specifiying facts about Libya's policies regarding oil (ie the 93% tax on oil production). He wouldnt post it. Curious.

Maybe Ill go point by point on this later, but statement 8

"There is no sectarian or ethnic dimension to the Libyan conflict, whereas the US Pentagon conspired with Shiite and Kurdish parties to overthrow the Sunni-dominated Baathist regime in Iraq, setting the stage for a prolonged and bitter civil war."

I find it difficult to believe Juan Cole is unaware of the tribal make-up and practices (incl blood feuds) of Libya, so, why would he dissemble like this?

[SidDithers]

54. +1 and good link...

thanks for posting.

Sid

[PhillySane]

12. Let the quiet strains of Zimmerman and Hendrix take us out

"There must be some kinda way out of here"
Said the joker to the thief
"There's too much confusion
I can't get no relief"

"Businessmen, they, they drink my wine
Plowmen dig my earth
None will level on the line
Nobody of it is worth", hey

"No reason to get excited"
The thief, he kindly spoke
"There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke"

"But you and I, we've been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now
The hour is getting late", hey

Hey

All along the watchtower
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went
Barefoot servants too

Outside in the cold distance
A wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching
And the wind began to howl, hey

All along the watchtower
All along the watchtower

[in_cog_ni_to]

18. I agree! Not to mention the cost. We CANNOT afford another freakin'

WAR! :grr:

[PhillySane]

21. THANK YOU!

:)

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. Hey,

We war haters have to stick together! :hugs:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Motown_Johnny]

29. It all started with Iraq invading Kuwait

the no fly zone came later

[PhillySane]

31. These were two very different situations.

Kuwait was invaded. Bush 1 struck back. Powell said, don't invade Iraq. But, a no-fly zone was imposed to protect the Kurds in the north. He also told the Shi-ites in the south to rise up. Which they did, and were brutally struck down by Hussein, with no help from us. This is how complex it is. You break it, you own it.

[coalition_unwilling]

35. Well, "it all started with" clauses get tangled up pretty quickly. Because

you could say, "It all started when, after the Ottoman Empire collapsed during World War I, the British and French created countries out of whole cloth like Kuwait and Iraq where no countries existed before." There was no such thing as 'Kuwait' before 1922.

Alternatively, you could say, "It all started with Kuwait slant-drilling under Iraq's borders and stealing Iraq's oil."

Alternatively, you could say, "It all started with the U.S. Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, telling Saddam Hussein that 'The U.S. has no opinion on Arab-Arab border disputes.' "

[PhillySane]

39. Is there anything but oil here?

really

[Scottybeamer70]

34. No-fly......can't-fly

won't-fly.......will-fly............whatever they want to call it......when the missiles
start flying, I still call it a WAR.......seems pretty clear cut.

[nxt1]

42. Thoughts I had but was unable to start a new thread about

I just wanted to list a lot of issues I have seen arise in my personal life of late in some form or another. I just joined the forum and was therefore unable to start my own thread with these points.

-US has become inefficient in investing in education, way too many skilled workers (college educated) working in unskilled positions. College in the United States has been turned into way to much of a social scene, and thus the returns to education are diminishing. The idea of everyone being entitled to a college education has been stressed far too much.

Negatives of Capitalism--
- A public school building will not give out free use of its classroom space over the summer for educational classes-- because these classes are for profit. If someone is making money then everyone has to be making something. These rooms would otherwise be left empty and untouched, but if money can be made, then the schools jump on their opportunities.

Hitching rides to the airport--
College students going to the airport will often offer rides to other students at far higher rates than will cover their gas expenses. An hour drive of 40 miles (driver goes there and back so 2*40=80) car getting 20mpg and gas at 3.50/gallon. The total trip costs around 14$. Not uncommon for a driver to take 3 people ask for 20$ each or 2 and ask for 30 each. Simple two hours of driving for personal reasons makes profit of somewhere between 30-50 dollars.

Inefficiencies in Markets

Allocation of funds in charity organizations is absolutely atrocious. Habitat for Humanity commonly sends student groups to spend a week building a house in Honduras, Florida, Guatemala, etc. Instead of having a group of college kids attempting construction, the group could have used the money to hire MANY more workers in one of these locations. They would have (specific even more to the international locations)

1) Created needed jobs
2) Hired MORE people because I bet people there would be HAPPY to get $5/hr
3) Used more skilled labor
4) Contributed DIRECTLY to the community instead of using half of it on plane tickets

Number 4 is crucial and can be adapted for groups that spend money on the rental and gas money of taking a coach bus 600 miles there and back. The fact is that it is the trip that draws these students in and not the actual assistance of people who need it (though the idea of helping the less fortunate can always allow one to give himself a pat on the back). Why are we having 25 students fly in to a tropical island to construct a poorly made house for a family of 3, where they spend their free time riding on jet skis, snorkeling, para sailing, essentially taking a tropical vacation, when the same funding could be used to help a thousand Africans for an entire month or just in some more productive way. The idea that contributing directly will allow the students to see for themselves the horrid conditions faced by the locals is one often made, but an easy solution for this is for them to travel to the local food pantry, turn on the news, or do a 15 second google search.

[in_cog_ni_to]

43. Great points.

College kids actually charge their fellow poor students $20 EACH WAY for a ride? What a rip off! My son leaves for college in Auhust...2 hours away. I guess I'll be driving my Prius to pick him up instead of having him hitch a ride!

I thought Habitat did hire locals in foreign countries to build the houses?

[PhillySane]

45. You know

first of all, I'm not sure what to think about this. Maybe I should launch my own sub-site here and just let anyone post on this thread about anything. But there would be a fee, cause I could damn sure use the skinny if you know what I mean. Now, I barely was able to take in half of what you said, but kids scuba diving on some fucking vacation where they're supposed to be building houses? Fuck that.
I'm against that. You either build the houses or go fucking home. No goddamn scuba shit vacation. okay. I'm against that.
Fuck them.

[nxt1]

46. Response to scuba diving

I got really frustrated at that. I'm a second year student at Brown and my girlfriend is a student at a midwest liberal arts college and takes part in her school's habitat for humanity club. I support the club, it has some fairly good goals (I'll ignore the the fact that a good number of its houses are falling apart entirely in Florida and Louisiana). I was shocked and appalled when she told me that her school's club used their funds to fly 25 students to Florida for a week over spring break to build a house and then detailed how it sounded like a lot of fun - they went jet-skiing and para-sailing (both of which I know are extremely pricey rich, white, activities).

In terms of rides- the college transportation (for most schools) tends not to be much better unfortunately, charging students about 25$ each way on a shuttle bus (this is all calculated for an hour of driving time).

- Habitat groups in some schools may hire locals, which would be much more effective in creating jobs (in poorer US communities), and stimulating the economy in other nations, but a large amount are still very much in favor of sending the kids to do it themselves.

[PhillySane]

48. Welcome to DU!

scuba shit vacations need to be banned

[in_cog_ni_to]

50. LOL!

:rofl:

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. Yep...that student transportation is a REAL issue

at EIU, where my son is headed. They DO allow Freshman to have their cars (unlike many Universities), BUT there's nowhere to park! And if you do find a place to park, you don't dare move your car because you'll lose your spot. So why take your car if you can't drive it? They have a shuttle bus for around town and they take student, on Holidays, from EIU to Chicago, but nowhere in-between, which is where we are. :( SO, I checked the Amtrak schedule. They have ONE departure a day...5:00AM. Though the price is cheap, he would still need a ride to the depot and they have 2, count them, 1, 2 taxi/shuttle services that are reviewed as extremely unreliable. I'm guessing my Prius is going to be getting some driving time in the next year.

I'm with the OP on the students spending charity funds for vacations...THAT is screwed up! And a sad commentary on our society. :(

Ditto that Welcome to DU! I didn't notice that was your first post. Sorry.

[PhillySane]

51. Seriously

well thought out here. Please post a separate thread on this. It deserves to get more attention than in this (crappy) thread. Okay. I know I'm kinda self -deprecating here, but I mean that. These are valid points that need to be looked at separately and in a larger forum. Do it!

:)

[nxt1]

52. Unfortunately

The forum rules do not allow for posters to start their own threads until a set number of posts (which I have not reached yet).

[PhillySane]

53. That's right

I forgot. Well, glad you put it here then! But post it on its own when you get a chance.

[nxt1]

55. Will do

Thanks for the help/support!

[Blue-Jay]

47. Ya don't say!

I only read subject lines, btw.