PETA Models Shower Nude In Hollywood To Protest Meat

[The Straight Story]

PETA Models Shower Nude In Hollywood To Protest Meat+

HOLLYWOOD (CBS) — PETA’s latest stunt is making a sudsy mess and captivating drivers in Hollywood. Our cameras were rolling when a distracted motorist caught a glimpse of PETA’s naked beauties and plowed into the car in front of him.

The girls are baring it all and showering in public to promote a Vegan lifestyle.

PETA says by giving up just one pound of meat, Americans can save up 2,463 gallons of water – or six months of shower water.

However, we spoke with Jeremy Russell of the American Meat Association over the phone and he says there’s more to it.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/03/22/peta-models-shower-nude-in-hollywood-to-protest-meat/

[earthside]

1. What religious fanatics won't do! n/t

[Xenotime]

2. Religious? Please explain THAT one.

[earthside]

4. Have you been around vegans?

In all but name it is a very fundamentalistic religion, too.

[Ignis]

14. Nice pic of the Buddha you have. What does "fundamentalistic" mean?

Almost every vegan I know is either an atheist or an agnostic, and certainly not a single one is a fundamentalist of any stripe.

[RebelOne]

15. I am am an atheist and a vegetarian.

Haven't reached the vegan stage yet. It's hard to give up dairy foods.

[Ignis]

16. Well, I know a lot of Christian (7DA, Friends, etc.) vegetarians, but few vegans.

But you make a good point. :toast: Good luck in your path, whatever you choose to do.

[Motown_Johnny]

26. a liberal atheist vegetarian female?

Are you single?

[RebelOne]

78. Yes. Are you? n/t

[patrick t. cakes]

161. i am

:evilgrin:

[defendandprotect]

225. Exactly ... the licenses for animal-eating come from "Manifest Destiny" ...

and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" -- and are issued by

organized patriarchal religions!

:)

[Dogmudgeon]

235. So it's the Penis, after all. Silly me!

And for years, I thought it was from the biological, physiological need of being an obligate omnivore.

--d!

[defendandprotect]

239. Well, let me know how many vaginas you find at the Vatican-- !!!

There is no need to eat animals -- it's exploitation of animal-life for the benefit

of the few. Violence is also an important concept for patriarchy to keep in place.

There is no "need" for any human being to eat animals --

[speltwon]

31. They are fundamentalist. They ignore scientific evidence

in their adherence to veganism. Many (not all) claim veganism is optimal for human health. That's laughable. We evolved to eat meat, as well as plants, and the plant kingdom is all but devoid of B12, which is not just good for you, it's NECESSARY which is why vegans supplement it in a lot of their foods.

Veganism as a moral stance is one thing. As a scientific diet, it's moronic

[Ignis]

38. To be clear, you're asserting that every vegan is a fundamentalist?

Have you recently looked up the definition of fundamentalism?

[speltwon]

41. No, I am asserting that a significant %age thereof are.

Anybody who claims that Veganism is the optimal diet for Homo Sapiens as VERY many do is a fundamentalist. They have substituted love for their lifestyle such that they ignore substantial scientific reality.

When you cling to a creed "veganism is optimal for human health" to the exclusion of scientific evidence, iow the real world, you are a fundamentalist. If evidence, science, reality have no power to sway you from your beliefs - you are a fundamentalist in my book

[Ignis]

76. What percentage?

Most vegans I know believe that a vegan diet is optimal for their health. You can agree or disagree with their dietary decision--although a little actual evidence for your claims wouldn't hurt--but that does not somehow make that belief magically "religious"...let alone "fundamentalist."

Words mean things. If you decide to call an orange "an apple"--well, have fun, but don't expect anyone else to understand you.

Also, you're confusing proselytizing with practice, and using a broad-brush smear to insult a group with a broad variety of belief systems or lack thereof. So if you're going to claim that "a significant %age" of vegans are fundamentalists, I'd like to hear what that percentage is.

[Occulus]

151. Thank you.

He means 'aggressively militant with a fervor resembling that of deep religious devotion', and frankly, I think he's right.

Every vegan I've ever known treated me like a leper at lunch and dinner, whatever the meal, full of snide comments and snark about 'a meatless lifestyle' this or 'I don't murder my dinner' that or 'my milk doesn't cause suffering- I expressed it this morning' (okay, that's an... exaggeration) throughout. It was always an atrocious, gloriously unpleasant experience and I've gone out of my way to avoid associating with vegans ever since.

It really does come across as some weird evangelistic religion a bit too often to be called coincidence, and I think it's that more than anything that turns me off so strongly to veganism and its adherents.

I like easting a 'bloody murdered mess on a plate', thanks. I'm sure I always will.

[yewberry]

157. Interesting

that those of us who are vegans have to face every day, every lunch and dinner, fighting against the stereotypes you mention. Most of us DON'T MENTION our diets when we can because otherwise we're accused of being "those" vegans you describe.

We face every lunch and dinner like lepers with snide remarks from meaters. When people know what I am it is always an atrocious, gloriously unpleasant experience and so I go out of my way to avoid telling people the truth about being vegan. I can't avoid meat-eaters, though, because they're pretty much everyone in the world and I have no interest in shutting myself out like that.

We all know you like eating a "bloody murdered mess on a plate" and most of us don't give a shit. It's your life and we're used to it.

[JonLP24]

68. Now this is laughable

[speltwon]

83. The truth sometimes is... nt

[MedicalAdmin]

103. Any statistical based diet is moronic if considered

on a patient to patient basis. Statistics break down on the individual level. We have patients who need to be on a mostly begetable diet due to their genetic makeup and we have others for whom meat is all but necessary. But I get your point.

Given the state of the commercial feed lot operations in the US, it behoves anyone who eats meat to get it from a local farmer rancher whose animal care practices you know.

[Ignis]

108. I would hope that we can ALL agree on your last point.

:thumbsup:

[FedUpWithIt All]

182. +++++

Wholeheartedly agree with all of the above.

[SOS]

199. Just got my physical test results

Vegetarian since 1993.
All indicators continue to improve.

B12: 386 pg/ml. very good
Vitamin D: 44 ng/ml - optimal
glucose: 87 - perfect
LDL: 130 - OK - dropping with every visit since 1995 (was 195) no Lipitor.
HDL: 60 good
CRP: 0.7 perfect
BP: 120/70

Age: 50

Doctor says I am one of her few patients whose results continue to improve with age.

The idea that humans "evolved to eat meat" seems questionable as these results demonstrate that
meat, dairy, fish, poultry, eggs etc are unnecessary for a positive comprehensive physical exam.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[earthside]

71. There are vegans ...

... who are so fanatical that they try and convert (cure?) their canine animal companions (what the rest of us call 'pets') from being carnivores into being vegetarians.

There's a vegan web site set-up to that end: http://www.vegetariandogs.com

Talk about trying to play god.

And that ... is what I would describe as vegan "fundamentalistic".

[speltwon]

85. Yup. Excellent example of Vegan fundamentalism. It's one thing if your religion only negatively

affects you. You want to believe fantasy, more power to you. But let a dog be a dog.

[Ignis]

89. You DO realize that dogs aren't obligate carnivores, right? Right?

:dunce:

Also, you've yet to explain how those who eat a vegan diet are "fundamentalistic." Are you going to do so, or should I simply chalk this up to a case of animosity towards another's beliefs or practices based on personal prejudices?

There's a word for that, you know. :hi:

[defendandprotect]

175. Rather, it would be more likely to call "meat-eating" a religion ....!!

Vegans are the atheists -- !!

Think about the Garden of Eden --

Even still stands today holding an apple -- still delivering the true message --

It was a Garden -- why would it be a problem for anyone to eat an apple?

Rather, it was the killing and eating of animals which was the sin -- bloodletting!

The tree of knowledge -- likely the genetic tree -- DNA -- "don't eat your neighbor

nor your animal friends"!


:)

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yewberry]

142. And there are meat-eaters

... who are so fanatical and obsessed with judging other people's choices that they try to paint all veg*ns as fanatics and try to convince people that they shouldn't make their own choices based on their own needs.

There are several anti-veg websites set up to that end:
http://www.vegetariansareevil.com/
http://community.livejournal.com/anti_vegan/
http://www.freewebs.com/avsme/
http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/lemonhead/
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2332712699

Talk about trying to push your own beliefs on everyone else.

And that ... is what I would describe as meater assholery.

[Dorian Gray]

183. Both sides do it

Everyone wants to feel like their choice is the "right" choice.

It not only happens with meat eating/vegetarianism, it also happens with breast feeding/bottle feeding and a myriad of other topics, too.

People are self-righteous asses sometimes.

[Lyric]

171. Oh BULLSHIT. Dogs aren't carnivores. They do just fine on vegetarian diets.

Cats are obligate carnivores, but dogs are omnivores. So long as they're getting the right balance of protein, carbs, fats, and nutrients, it really doesn't matter WHERE it comes from.

Edit: And upon further reading in this thread--if you don't even know a basic high-school biology fact like "Dogs are omnivores", what the hell are any of you doing here spouting your ignorance as if you're an "Authoriteh"?!

Pathetic. Just. Effing. Pathetic.

[speltwon]

29. And much like creationists, they ignore all scientific evidence that refutes their religious beliefs

Men did not evolve as vegans, there are essential nutrients (B12) that are all but absent from plant sources (vegan foods are supplemented with it to get around this). I am a competitive athlete, and my sport demands power, strength, explosiveness etc. I've never seen one vegan do well in it. I do know there is at least one vegan though who is a damn good MMA fighter, so I'm not saying it's impossible.

I eat TONS of fruits and veggies, a fair %age of them raw, lots of pickled stuff (Kimchi etc.) and pay a lot of attention to my diet.

Veganism is , as a moral stance - fine. As a nutritional stance, it's moronic. Lacto-ovo vegetarianism is reasonable. Veganism is not.

[Ignis]

39. To be clear, you're asserting that veganism is a religion?

Have you recently looked up the definition of religion?

[speltwon]

43. I am saying that as a matter of substituting

faith for reason, and for adhering to their creed "veganism is optimal for human health" it is the same as a religion. It does not have a higher power as an element of belief, and is thus not a religion in that respect.

But as a practical matter, if you cling to your creed such that you are willing to ignore what the real world clearly shows, because you want to believe in a fairytale, when you ignore the CLEAR origins of homo sapiens (it's called evolution), you are a brother in arms with a religious fundamentalist - taking creed over reality

[yewberry]

63. Someone implying that evolution is teleological is calling me moronic.

Oooookay.

:eyes:

[speltwon]

73. No, I'm not

I am saying that the belief that veganism is the optimal nutrition for a human being is a moronic belief. I never called a PERSON moronic. I called a belief moronic. Not all vegans believe that btw, and regardless- just like a person can do something irrational (everybody does sometimes) and not be an irrational person, somebody can believe something moronic w/o being a moronic person.

Read my post again, this time w/o defensiveness

[yewberry]

132. I didn't mean to suggest you were namecalling.

I certainly didn't take your remarks as such. What you have said, though, is that vegans ignore science, that veganism is unreasonable, and that veganism substitutes faith for reason.

I stand by the assertion that you imply that evolution is teleological, and that part of your argument against veganism is based in this very basic flaw.

[speltwon]

198. That's not what I am saying. I have great respect for veganism

as a moral stance, and I like what veganism does to bring awareness about factor farming. Vegans that believe/claim it is the optimal way to eat for human beings, or god forbid optimal for the planet earth are deluded.

I am not saying that evolution is teleological, although with a certain simplistic literary license, a facile explanation of it can be given that way. I am saying that a rational person looking at all the evidence, must conclude that , at least from an Occam's Razor analysis - that evolution is the way to go when explaining stuff like oh, the complexity of the human eye (one of the "irreducible complexity" canards that "intelligent design" people love to trot out).

Veganism is appealing in its simplicity, its alleged moral superiority, its easy pat answers, all just like many religious answers. And much like these answers, like the creation myth, you have to ignore reality to finally keep them as your personal beliefs. There is just too much evidence to the contrary out there.

[Ignis]

82. Hey, Yew. Still trying to drive up dictionary sales?

;)

[speltwon]

87. I have a philosophy degree. I can throw around words like teleological with the best of them

Except I'd rather make a point that is valid then throw out words...

rutabega... parsimony...

Oh wait, that's actually kind of fun.

[Ignis]

91. I'd ask for a refund, if I were you.

;)

[flvegan]

94. !

:rofl:

Nailed it.

[speltwon]

95. Well, it was a state college

So maybe I should be FOR privatization of education?

[Ignis]

105. No hate for State from me. I got my B.S. at a public Uni.

I would have loved to major in philosophy--and I did get to audit a few grad courses--but a man's gotta eat...



















...Plants. :D

[speltwon]

109. I am drinking right now

a drink made up of freshly juiced - carrots, garlic, celery, tomatoes, and a touch of lemon, along with pepper, worcestire sauce (which iirc has anchovy paste and is thus not vegan), tabasco, kosher salt.

However, it would be even better with a large skirt steak. Skirt steak, as you may know comes from a cow's (in this case a free range, grass fed cow) diaphragm. I figure if I am going to talk a lot of smack, I should fortify my diaphragm and what better way to do that than EAT some diaphragms. Well, it's not exactly scientifically rigorous but neither is PETA's favorite study, the China Study, so I guess I can be forgiven.

Fwiw, I was a vegetarian for a year. So, I can feel your pain :)

[Ignis]

112. After this thread, I need a drink, too.

And it's not fair to hate too much on the China Study. It contains some really interesting data points--you just have to sift through some wonky analysis to get to it.

Also, it's a bit dated now. Things have been moving quickly in the dietary world over the past decade.

[speltwon]

121. I find one interesting thing in all my studies of diet

(and as an athlete, I have been studying this topic for years - since it's directly related to performance) there is one major commonality between ALL the cultures studied that have low disease rates and good longevity

All ate some form of dairy/meat, all ate fermented foods and all had limited processed sugars or grain products.

That's the ONE commonality across all these cultures. Otoh, those that ate higher levels of processed sugars/processed foods ... not so much.

Okinawans, are a great example. They get tons of animal protein.

[Ignis]

125. Compared to WHAT in the written historical record, though?

Think about it:

1. You're only looking at the past 6000 years or so, which is a wee little tiny blip at the end of the history of hominid evolution.

2. In most hunter-gatherer societies that remained extant long enough to be chronicled, the VAST majority of their daily diet was from non-meat sources. Was animal protein valued in these societies? Sure, but the actual intake was quite limited--and not necessarily equally spread across the population, which leads to the question of why the women and children didn't suffer more diseases. (See the diet of the !Kung people as an example of one of the few such societies that physical anthropologists have been able to study before all traditional practices were lost to modern convenience and/or forced assimilation.)

3. H-G societies are an important data point here because they make up the overwhelming bulk of human history. Large-scale agriculture is only a few thousand years old, but it gave those societies the ability to field standing armies and maintain specialists. Those societies tend to be the victors in local wars, and thus they had the opportunity to write the histories.

4. Any comparison between bronze-age societies and contemporary ones is suspect, due to the major changes in the availability of a broad selection of types of food (and thus, sources of protein and other essential nutrients) after ~1900 or so. I'm not suggesting that one could easily practice a vegan diet on a small Pacific island, for example, but in a major metropolitan city today, one has access to a wide variety of foods that contribute to a nutritionally complete diet without eating meat.

But I'm always open to new data, so if you can provide any support for these claims, I'm happy to review it.

[speltwon]

140. I'm not talking historically. I'm talking present day

No matter what society worldwide you look at, those are the commonalities we see, if they are healthy. And in the societies we see that are much less healthy, high obesity, diabetes, cancer, etc. we see that they don't meet those commonalities.

The details are nice, but those simple, broad, gross brushstrokes covers most of it. I know a lot of athletes in particular and people in general who get GREAT results from a paleo type diet, for instance.

Another issue is that most of the alleged issues with meat, are factory farming issues. I get goat, lamb and beef from a local farm - grassfed, free ranging animals. I god forbid hate to sound like Nugent but I recall the Bourdain episode where he makes the point - that's the food our digestive systems evolved to eat.

Frankly, if there's a way a vegan diet can get me the 150-250 gms of quality protein I need every day, I'd like to see it

I also grow a fair amount of my own produce

[Ignis]

150. I should have known this was leading to a Paleo diet pitch.

:banghead:

I'm no fan of the SAD that's too heavy in refined fats and flours, but that doesn't mean I have much patience for a re-warmed dish of unhealthy Atkins with a side of loony W.A. Price-esque organ-worship, either.

Besides which, it's a ridiculous name that should make anyone with a foundation in the biological sciences cringe. They might as well have called it the Flintstones diet. "Yabba-dabba-do! I'm eating a whole side of megafauna, just like my ancestors did!"

:rant:

But here's a :thumbsup: to anyone who eschews factory farmed meat and buys/grows local produce.

[speltwon]

154. It"s NOTHING LIKE ATKINS and I don't eat paleo

I haven't changed my diet to adjust to paleo, I just naturally found over 15 yrs of diet exploration that eating a minimal amount of processed crap is the way to go. For breakfast I had 3 eggs, +3 whites, an english muffin (not paleo), cheese, canafian bacon, a grapefruit, kimchi, strawbeerries and grapes.

That's TONS of carbs. It's not close to Atkins. Furthermore, I eat english muffins, nonfat milk, peanut butter, etc. which male paleos cringe

I don't adhere to Paleo. What I am saying that it makes sense not to eat a bunch of sugar, deep fried crap, etc.

The proof is in my sports results. I plateaud for about a year and HAD to dial in my diet. Oh, I also drink beer (not paleo)

[flvegan]

153. Yeah, the protein problem.

Wish I could figure that one out. Try as I might, this sad little bodybuilder is just wasting away.

Oh wait, I understand bioavailability. Funny thing, that.

[speltwon]

156. So do I

eggs are very bioavailable. So is grass fed beef, which also has a kickass EFA profile, creatine, etc.

[flvegan]

159. According to your post that I responded to, you're clueless.

If you can't figure out how to "as an athlete" get enough protein on a vegan diet, then you really don't. It's okay.

[speltwon]

160. I wouldn't want to try because a vegan diet would be substantially suboptimal

I don't know a single strength athlete who is a vegan, but maybe there is one somewhere. Why would anybody consciously cut out some of the most beneficial nutrient dense, strength enhancing foods like eggs? It's nonsensical.

Of course it's POSSIBLE to get a lot of protein on a vegan diet. Heck, it's POSSIBLE to get tons of saturated fat on one, but pretty difficult.

[flvegan]

162. Like I said, clueless.

Absolutely laughable. You stay strong, "athlete"

:rofl:

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flvegan]

164. I'll do just that.

If I could laugh any harder at you, I would.

[speltwon]

165. to quote Capt Kirk

because after all, it's always appropriate: "I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

[flvegan]

167. Keep thinking that, Trekkie.

Next you'll quote the Fonz and beg for relevance? I appreciate the comedy, but please.

[krispos42]

177. *snort*

:rofl: :thumbsup:

[Lyric]

"stringy and skinnyfat" ROFL.

No seriously. Just :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Only someone who doesn't know flvegan would say something that incredibly, hilariously ignorant.

[speltwon]

193. Maybe he's an outlier

If you read my post for content you will see I am only talking in the aggregate. It's suboptimal for body composition. It doesn't follow there are some vegans who make it work damn well.

[defendandprotect]

178. The cause of "Spina Bifida" was a lack of folate in the mother's diet ....

green leafy vegetables!!

Look at the largest animals in the world -- Gifaffes and Elephants -- herbivores!!

That's the way that a strong body is built!!

[uppityperson]

206. Humpback whales are larger and eat krill. They have strong bodies eating tiny animals.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/whales/species/Humpbackwhale.shtml

[defendandprotect]

179. It would certainly be OPTIMAL for the planet and thus humanity ...!!

the protein you need doesn't come from animals it comes from vegetables --

same with fat -- the fat your body requires comes from vegetables -- avocados for instance.

Strong bodies/bones are built with vegetation -- look at the giraffe and the elephant!!

Lack of fresh green leafy plants in a mother's diet produces Spina Bifida!!

[speltwon]

190. It would not be optimal

There's no rational basis for believing that. Vegan woo. Whoo hoo!

[defendandprotect]

203. Rather, we know that animal-eating industry -- 12 million and more animals a day slaughtered --

is harming the planet --

Rather, exploitation of animal-life is about profit for the few --

and, sadly, poor health for the many.

LOL

[speltwon]

205. Here's a hint for you. Meat eating does not have to equal support for FACTORY FARMING

There are many problematic issues of factory farming, and in many cases that goes for factory farming of AGRICULTURAL products as well. Ever heard of Monsanto?

Get it? There is a false dichotomy here - meat bad, plants good. There IS a problem with many factory farming practices, which is why I buy my beef, lamb, goat etc. from a farm that allows their animals to roam freely and eat grass. The meat is tastier, more nutritious, and the farming practices are not detrimental to the environment. Furthermore, they are killed quickly and as humanely as possible, far MORE humanely than the average forest predator kills animals.

And god knows less cruelly than a cat kills a mouse after toying with it for hours.

[defendandprotect]

208. And this is all simply about YOU? What are the rest of the people eating?

Animals from factory-farming --

what of Wendy's and Kentucky Fried Chicken -- etal serving?

And the fallacy that any animal is "killed quickly" is just why the videos from these

slaughter houses should be watched -- your belief in corporate propanda is amazing!

The false dichotomy is that eating animals is good -- while the medical history shows

just the opposite.

What cats would do in the wild I guess we no longer know -- what they do as domesticated

animals may be something else.

[speltwon]

210. Oh spare me the corporate propaganda crap

What the hell do you know about me? I grew up on a farm. I saw animals slaughtered before my eyes. So, I know damn well the difference between a humane slaughter and a cruel slaughter, not to mention inhumane practices like that performed against veal cattle.

I've also seen wild animals eviscerate a still living prey animal and eat its guts as the animal struggled in pain. Nature isn't pretty.

The point is this - we can push for more human farming practices, and better farming practices FOR BOTH plants and animals. And we damn well do know what cats do in the wild. Ever see a cougar?

The medical history does NOT show that eating animals is bad. Quite the opposite. That's the woo fake science that veganism promotes. Some of the healthiest societies on earth eat tons of meat - the okinawans for instance eat tons of fish (fish IS meat). So does the oft-credited mediterranean type diets.

There is a massive difference in EFA profile, saturated fat content etc. between wild game/grass fed beef vs. factory farmed crap.

If you want to believe the vegan propaganda (see, two can play the propaganda claim) feel free. I'll go with science, and my own two eyes.

[defendandprotect]

219. You're sticking with slaughter houses using "humane and quick" ways to kill animals?

I'd suggest you watch the PETA videos -- some included here at DU on the HOME page!!

And, again, try to notice how you interpret everything as being about YOU --

this discussion isn't about YOU and your practices --

It's about what the population, in general, is eating and suffering.


The medical history does NOT show that eating animals is bad. Quite the opposite. That's the woo fake science that veganism promotes. Some of the healthiest societies on earth eat tons of meat - the okinawans for instance eat tons of fish (fish IS meat). So does the oft-credited mediterranean type diets.

This is completely disingenuous so shortly you'll be on "Ignore" --

Check with Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, for one --

check statistics on cancer -- for another --

and evidently you've missed USA's problems with Obesity -- ?

How about "Sprina Bifida" resulting from American women getting too little folate

in their diets -- ? Never has been a campaign to tell women and families about that!

What did they finally do? They threw folic acid into flour. No actual campaign to

tell women of child bearing age to eat fresh vegetables/leafy greens!

Again -- discussing fish at this point is moot -- considering BP and mercury and the

radiation crossing the Pacific as we post!


If you want to believe the vegan propaganda (see, two can play the propaganda claim) feel free. I'll go with science, and my own two eyes.

And America's medical history isn't "science" -- ?



And just a PS on the "cats" -- you misunderstood what I was saying ...

I've also seen wild animals eviscerate a still living prey animal and eat its guts as the animal struggled in pain. Nature isn't pretty.

Survival of the fittest is actually based on animals/species which cooperate BEST with nature.

We don't know the role that animals play in keeping nature working the way it should be.

HOWEVER, what I was saying to you is that "DOMESTICITY" is not natural -- so what animals do

in those circumstances may be outside of nature.

[speltwon]

224. Um, no. But keep inserting your prejudices instead of reading what I wrote

What I said is that animals can be, and should be slaughtered humanely. Factory farming tends NOT to do that. Please read what I wrote, not what you want to see.

We can sit and play duelling studies for hours if you so desire. Again, the Okinawans have VERY low cancer rates, very low disease rates in general, and yet eat tons of meat. And again, meat =/= factory farmed crap, any more than agriculture = only Monsanto frankengrains

And of course people should eat TONS of fresh fruit and leafy greens. AND meat. That's the point. People in general, and specifically in america eat an awful diet on average. It is entirely possible to eat an awful vegan diet, or a great omnivorous diet. Meat is not the issue

Veganism and vegetarianism have done great things in drawing attention ot awful factory farming practices. Man is awesome at devising increased efficiency factory production techniques. That's why a pencil costs a dime, but is a remarkably complex, highly machined marvel. Works great with Ipods too. Works TERRIBLY with farming, because cows are not inanimate widgets. They are living breathing creatures. Creatures that live in awful, stressful, disease ridden existences necessarily produce less healthy meat. Especially true when they are fed crap like grains, or god forbid ground up cow (see Mad Cow disease). These problems are an edifice of FACTORY FARMING. Vegan woo science conflates factory farming problems and claims these problems are why we shouldn't eat meat.

It's such an obvious and ridiculous example of poor understanding of science, it's ridiculous. And in desire to promote their religion, they are willing to accept or even knowingly create lies to further their cause - a world where man no longer eats meat, a substance man evolved to eat and thrive on. It is decidedly suboptimal to eliminate meat.

For an example, here's what I ate yesterday

3 whole eggs, 3 egg whites, about 2 lbs of fruit and vegetables (cilantro, carrots, celery, kale, strawberries, garlic, ginger root, grapfruit, orange, apple), homemade kimchi, birria soup (shredded beef about 6 ounces) with oregano, whey protein shake, peanut butter, english muffin

If I were to cut out the birria and eggs would I be healthier? Heck no.

If you want to eat for health, vitality, sports performance, disease prevention, sexual performance (low fat diets substantially reduce testosterone levels), libido, restful sleep, digestive system health, etc. you should eat a healthy diet. Healthy diet =/= meat free diet.

[defendandprotect]

229. Will correct this ...

you said that the farm you buy from kills "humanely and quickly" --

however, that is not what happens in general -- and we are not discussing

YOUR world, we are discussing what happens in general.

[Lyric]

176. Just out of curiosity...

...are you under the false impression that smugness, wanton offensiveness, and deliberately poking at other people is a legitimate debate tactic?

For someone with a philosophy degree, you seem to have the critical thinking skills of the average 4-chan /b/ denizen.

HAHA!!!11 YOU'RE TEH VEGAN SO IMMA GONNA TALK ABOUT YUMMY STEAK JUST TO MAKE YOU MADZ!!!11 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:shrug:

[speltwon]

192. I think the proper response is to lighten up

Francis.

[defendandprotect]

209. "Don't worry, be happy" -- Global Warming will go away? Ignore medical facts re animal-eating?

Maybe that's a message you should get to the Japanese this week?


:nuke:

[speltwon]

212. No, pay attention to medical facts in regards to animal eating

Look at some of the healthiest societies on earth, with great longevity and vitality e.g. the Okinawans. TONS of meat, in their case fish. VERY healthy.

Furthermore, meat eating is not to blame for global warming. That's more vegan woo faux science. Factory farming is a serious problem otoh. It is not necessary for meat eating, nor is it exclusive to meat. Ever heard of Monsanto? Frankenfarming etc. of vegetables.

Again, believe the science, throw away the hype

[defendandprotect]

220. What's wrong with looking at medical facts in USA? Obesity, cataracts, diabetes, cancers ....

strokes, heart attacks -- on and on --

And, as the Japanese begin to eat according to the "American diet" they are growing

FATTER. You can see it here with Asians in America --

The immense number of cattle roaming the planet isn't harmful to nature?

Nor to water? Lakes, Streams?

Disingenuous --

Bye --

[speltwon]

230. It's about conflating FACTORY FARMING with meat

and the american diet is decidedly unhealthy. That's not the fault of meat.

Again, I've already explained this. If meat was unhealthy, then ceteris paribus, societies that ate a lot of meat would be unhealthy. That is NOT true. A perfect example is the Okinawans. They eat a healthy diet, which includes plenty of meat.

What makes their diet healthy? Fresh fruits and vegetables, very little factory farmed crap, little to no frankenfoods, little to no highly processed crap - WHETHER OF MEAT OR PLANT/GRAIN origin, and plenty of meat. The lack of overly processed crap, deep fried foods, etc. i s a big part of it. A mars bar deep fried in vegetable oil after being battered with white flour is entirely unhealthy. But it's totally vegan. Deep ocean fish served lightly steamed with a side order of edamame and some fresh greens is decidedly NOT vegan, but is very healthy

It's not friggin' rocket science. Highly processed foods, deep fried foods, processed sugars, lack of fiber, excess amounts of saturated fat, poor EFA balance, lack of essential fatty acids, lack of minerals and vitamins, etc. THAT is what is unhealthy. It has NOTHING to do with meat qua meat.

[defendandprotect]

180. Why were you a veggie for a year ?? Curiosity or illness?

[speltwon]

191. Curiosity and morality

Even then, the science was clear, it was suboptimal nutritionally

[defendandprotect]

202. What happened to the "morality" -- ? How about concern for planet, Global Warming?

Though looks like it's two late for those last two, anyway!

[speltwon]

204. I've consistently said I have strong respect for veganism and vegetarianism

as moral stances, although I find them also somewhat ridiculous and hypocritical. How many vegans have cats for instance? Why not just euthanize cats if you want to reduce the "cruelty"? Any idea how many animals a cat eats over the course of a lifetime? It's ALL they eat.

Regardless, I think one of the benefits of veganism/vegetarianism is that they have been at the forefront of exposing the cruelty and harmful practices of much of the corporate farming and meat production industries. Meat does not have to mean the kind of cruelty we see in many corporate farms. In fact, at least with most of the meat I eat - it doesn't. I buy a side of beef and some goat and lamb every winter from a farm that allows their animals to roam free range and eat their natural diet, then kills them quickly. Also, factory farming has introduced grain fed meat into our diet, which is not how "nature intended it" (not to anthropomorphize nature) and results in a poor EFA profile and bad saturated fat levels, etc.

Vegans are wrong in their claims that if the world was vegan, that would be the best way to save the planet, and that argument has been debunked ad nauseum. For example, responsible fishing practices and farming practices are fine and not detrimental to the earth at all. And some of the agricultural practices are just as harmful or more harmful. The meat/plant dichotomy (bad/good) is false. It's the factory farming to a large extent that is the problem

[defendandprotect]

213. Wasn't that YOU with the "woo-hoo" Veganism in another post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=724094&mesg_id=730951

hmmm... guess you were taking a day off from that "respect" for Vegetarians and Vegdans?




When you mentioned "morality" I thought you were talking of YOUR own morality --

i.e., concern for the planet?



Guess we have to ask DU'ers what their cats eat -- ever see a commercial showing a cat

eating a mouse on TV?

Again -- what animals may do in the wild may be acceptable to Nature --

what they do in domestic situations may be usual.

Regardless, I think one of the benefits of veganism/vegetarianism is that they have been at the forefront of exposing the cruelty and harmful practices of much of the corporate farming and meat production industries.

Wasn't that YOU in another post saying that animals were killed "humanely" in factory farming?

Again -- this isn't about YOU -- you need to look at animal-eating from a higher perspective --

how many of the 12 million animals and more slaughtered every day are you eating? Even one

would be a surprise!!


Vegans are wrong in their claims that if the world was vegan, that would be the best way to save the planet, and that argument has been debunked ad nauseum. For example, responsible fishing practices and farming practices are fine and not detrimental to the earth at all. And some of the agricultural practices are just as harmful or more harmful. The meat/plant dichotomy (bad/good) is false. It's the factory farming to a large extent that is the problem

Wow -- you really buy a lot of corporate propaganda -- amazing!

No one says that ending animal-eating would be the "best" or only way to save the planet --

it would be a substantial help in saving the planet.

Pollution of water, as well --

And changing the scenes of violence in America - though often carried out beyond sight.

"Responsible fishing and farming practices are fine" --- :eyes:

Rethink that BP spill -- and mercury polluting most of our fish -- ?

And fish farms creating viruses and worms -- ?

Agriculatural practices for vegetation have been ridiculously enlarged -- and pesticides

and chemicals thrown over most of our crops -- that isn't the way things have to be.

And there should be immense changes --

Try for organic foods now with radiation wafting in across the Pacific from Japan -- ?

It will now roll over the USA and on to the Atlantic and Eruope!!

Drinking water a problem in Japan, now? How about US as this radiation flows over us?

[speltwon]

215. Yes, it was. That was in regards to their faux science and religion affecting their

dismissal of scientific data.

It said nothing about morality. Two totally different point. Factory farming has introduced a lot of harmful practices - harmful to the local environment, harmful to the earth as a system in whole, harmful to our own health.

That is entirely tangential to the benefits of eating meat, and the faux science that says that human beings would be healthier without it. That's not remotely supported by science. There is so much bad science there, it's absurd.

Again, as one example, I cite Okinawans, one of the healthiest groups on earth. They eat TONS of meat

[defendandprotect]

221. So you "respect" Vegetarians and Vegans ... except in regard to anything that they say?

If there is RELIGION connected to this subject it is on the party of those

selling animal-eating -- that's long been part of organized patriarchal religion

which provides the LICENSE for exploitation of animals --

"Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" -- there is where you find

religious advocation for exploitation of animals and animal-life!



Yes, it was. That was in regards to their faux science and religion affecting their
dismissal of scientific data.

It's not only disrespect it's distortion of medical history here in USA --

and distortion of religious history --

So America is sick -- very sick -- but having nothing to do with animal-eating!



:eyes: -- bye --

[speltwon]

227. Man, it's strawman central with you

I respect their (generally speaking) desire to improve the earth, improve health, reduce cruelty to animals, eliminate factory farming cruelty, etc.

I do not respect (the ones that do) their faux science and lies regarding meat

If you cannot understand the distinction, that's too bad

[defendandprotect]

231. The "faux science" your disallowing is USA medical history ... is it not?

Are our citizens well?

Where are the cancers coming from?

The obesity, the diabetes, the strokes, high blood pressure, heart attacks?

Cataracts, osteoperosis? Alzheimer's?

There is, of course, no exaggeration of -- heaven forbid, lying -- on the part

of the corporate run animal-eating industry?

[speltwon]

233. It is explicitly INCLUDING it as well as a study of many diverse societies

that CLEARLY shows that meat eating is NOT the controlling factor for health. Otoh, a diet high in saturated fats, poor EFA balance, processed crap (sugars, white flours etc. in excess) and lacking in fresh fruits and vegetables IS a recipe for poor health

Again, as a simple example look at the Okinawans. TONS of meat. But a decidedly unamerican diet. Ditto the diet of the greeks (lots of olive oil, greens, and plenty of meat) etc.

Meat is not the culprit. Meat is healthy. Stay away from factory farmed crap. Do you HONESTLY think, for example, a wild salmon (my father in law catches these all time) that is rich in protein, and EFA's and minerals, is unhealthy? Really?

It's faux science to conflate factory farming practices (and please don't get me started on franken grains a la Monsanto either) with meat and equate them.

[defendandprotect]

222. Bye --

You're on "Ignore" -- and I have but one rule for that --

being disingenuous --

[Name removed]

228. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

232. OK -- so now your debate is insults? Don't bother responding !!

[Truth2Tell]

152. don't forget fundamentalistic

:rofl:

[cleanhippie]

217. Are you a "Standup Philosopher"?

You know, a bullshit artist?







It's a joke you know, from Mel Brooks' History of the World Part I.

[yewberry]

144. I ain't dumbing it down for no one.

If you can't look it up, you're voted off vegan island.

[Ignis]

148. Don't ever dumb it down.

We get enough of that 'round here.

:toast:

[bluestate10]

126. The poster absolutely DID NOT say what you claimed. Get real, please. nt

[yewberry]

138. The poster did not namecall, correct.

The poster did, however, attempt to support his opinion by implying that evolution is a teleological process.

[Ignis]

79. Ah, so you're asserting that vegans are anti-science now?

Well, that's...interesting, to say the least. What's your support for this wild claim?

I personally know ~10 vegans who work in technical, engineering (physical and electrical), bio-sci, comp-sci, chemistry, or other scientific professions. (And no, I don't mean bottle-washers, technical writers, or pure academics.)

How on earth do you imagine that they manage to be "religious fundamentalists" and succeed in these jobs?

:shrug:

[speltwon]

194. I am asserting that Vegans who claim it is the optmal diet for human

beings. And also, it's long been established that people who are scientific or rigorous in one field can often be completely different in their "personal religion". There are brilliant scientists who believe some actually absurdly fantastic stuff when it comes to everything from conspiracy theories to religious mythology. Have you never come into contact with such people?

Veganism is like Marxism. It sounds really nifty, but the more you delve into the more you realize it's based on fantasy biology, just like Marxism is based on fantasy human nature

[MedicalAdmin]

106. Vegans are not necessarily Petans.

Please stop attributing your feelings on the subject to a broad class of people, who, for the most part, are pretty nice folks. That goes for anyone you don't know and want to broad brush...

[seabeyond]

116. and that is the really sad.... is this org leaves a bad taste

towards vegans. the most mellow, laid back, you do your thing, i do mine people i know are vegetarians.

lots of vegetarians dont support peta

either

[MedicalAdmin]

120. True that.

I used to run a co-op housing place and we had a rule of only renting to vegetarians who didn't smoke. No animal products. Honestly - it's a good rule. You get mellow, get along people.

We had many meat eaters like myself who lived there and who voluntarily didn't eat meat in the house. When I needed some tandoori chicken, I ate out. It was just a great place to live.

[RufusTFirefly]

Gee, almost as bad as the Blacks and the Jews, eh?

Generalize much?

[Ignis]

40. Oh, that's different. Those posts wouldn't last a minute at DU.

But vegans? Hell, load up the pickup, boys, there's a pile-on to be had!

[Aerows]

66. I lived with a vegan

It was frightening. I'm a meat eater. You haven't experienced living with a vegan until they make "barbecued ribs" with peanut butter and god only knows what else. I accidentally quaffed what I thought was milk, since I am also very much a lover of dairy products, and nearly choked to death when it was some sweet white substance that tasted terrible. Vegan "cheese" on a tofu burger. There just isn't enough mustard in the world to fix that.

I started cooking two different meals - I just couldn't handle it.

[Ignis]

80. You're right! ONLY religious fundamentalists are bad cooks.

:dunce:

[Aerows]

111. Well, I'm probably a religious fundamentalist...

... in that I refuse to eat meals that don't taste good LOL! I'll accept that label, and like it :smile:

[Ignis]

139. And based on your experience with 1 vegan, all vegans are X?

There's a word for that.

[MedicalAdmin]

110. Here are a few of my favorite vegetarian foods...

beer
wine
scotch
whisky
chocolate
hot sauce
coffee
tea
pretty much anything in an indian restaurant...


I would suggest that it wasn't that they were vegan so much as they had no idea how to cook.

[Ignis]

114. That looks like a great drink recipe.

Oh...wait.

[MedicalAdmin]

118. Put 2 ounces of each in a blender and push puree.

[yewberry]

134. If I posted my opinion of a former meat-eating roommate's food

would you understand why this post is so utterly beside the point, or is your bias the only one that's allowed?

[MedicalAdmin]

97. Not my experience...

The vegans I know are pretty mellow and you wouldn't know they are vegan unless you asked. They just don't eat meat or meat byproducts. And some of them are seriously healthy. Check out this vegans diet website www.drpatelsdiet.com - this dude is in seriously good shape.

[Ignis]

107. Here's another one that's making the (pop) diet rounds:

http://engine2diet.com/

And then there's this guy, who is just...a freakin' machine:
http://www.brendanbrazier.com/

[Luminous Animal]

145. All Christians are fundementalist, too. Each and every one.

[Ignis]

147. But that's not an insult, of course. It's just science!

The stuff people will say when they know they can get away with it, eh?

[defendandprotect]

174. Wait -- why isn't meat-eating a religion ... ??? Rather Vegans are the atheists in this insanity!!

[defendandprotect]

223. That's nonsense: "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" are the religious licenses ...

for animal-eating and animal-exploitation --

and they are the licenses issued by organized patriarchal religions!!

[Chef Eric]

244. I've been around vegans. Not one has ever tried to "convert" me. nt

[seabeyond]

195. PETA: Don't call animals 'it' in the Bible

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/23/peta-dont-call-animals-it-in-the-bible/?hpt=Sbin

thought this funny, per your post

[L0oniX]

3. LOL ...the car accident in the video back ground.

[HopeHoops]

5. Damn. They had a shower curtain.

:evilgrin:

The only meat a priest can eat on Friday is nun!

- The head detective from "Up In Smoke"

[petronius]

10. Photo #24 cracked me up, with the dude peeking over the edge

(Yes, I scrolled through all of them, just in case... ;) )

[Ghost in the Machine]

81. Did you see him in pic #17? I wonder if he understood the irony..

A guy in a leather jacket holding a sign that says "Go Green, Go Vegan" :rofl:

[bluestate10]

135. Good catch. That is a funny image. The beautiful models must have dulled his senses. nt

[dkofos]

6. Wasting water to tell you you're wasting water. Brilliant

[dana_b]

100. exactly what I was thinking

I'm a vegetarian but this is f***ing stupid.

[uppityperson]

7. If they really cared they'd shower with clothes on, washing laundry @ same time.

[seabeyond]

8. wow, another peta stupid. surprise nt

[kenny blankenship]

9. I have an idea: for their next protest they can do a porn film

Now then how, in pornographic terms, would you protest the eating of meat?

[OswegoAtheist]

172. Dupe n/t

[OswegoAtheist]

173. Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7M1lJ7d8Rg

Oswego "extra cheesy" Atheist

[underseasurveyor]

11. Love it

Like em or not....

They get your attention and they keep animal issues at the fore.

[Matariki]

12. I wouldn't confuse attention with effectiveness.

The Phelps family gets attention too.

[underseasurveyor]

13. But they get people to think about the animals

The Phelps cult expose themselves as the hateful, ignorant, idiots they are.

PETA keeps animal cruelty and environmental issues in the light. Like em or not they do get people thinking about animal issues. I may not agree with everything they do but it was PETA that first brought my attention to numerous animal issues. I kinda knew already but not to the breadth of which they have exposed them.

[blondeatlast]

46. Think about what you are saying--I would argue they are no more effective

in their cause than the Phelps clan. "Animal Cops" is FAR more effective--and lots cheaper--than PETA.

[underseasurveyor]

52. Im not saying i always agree with their tactics, they do seem odd at times

But everyone knows PETA ='s Animals and we need reminding that too many animals suffer every minute of every day at the hands of humans and human greed. I see no harm in that message.

[blondeatlast]

55. I really don't think "everyone" knows that. And I don't think Ms. Newkirk cares to

srtraighten the message out for those that don't.

Their PR is ineffective--and that's all they are about. They fail at what they attempt to do.

[A Simple Game]

65. They fail at what they attempt to do. ?

How so? They got you to talk about it, didn't they?

[blondeatlast]

98. Cute argument. I support the ASPCA with my sweat and my money. money.

I find PETA laughable and Ingrid Newkirk fascinating ina a George W. Bush-ish way.

[seabeyond]

56. wrong message. they know peta uses women in degrading adn sexist manners in order to get attention

big difference in the two messages.

[MedicalAdmin]

113. My dad used to say " it takes all kinds."

My mom used to respond "we need all kinds." I'm with my mom on this one.

[seabeyond]

32. taking a shower on the street has nothing to do with animal. it is stupid. nt

[underseasurveyor]

44. Got your attention though, didn"t it. nt

[seabeyond]

54. i use to praise and defend peta. now, i bad mouth them to all, and teach my children

what a disgusting org it is. that there are many more org that are about animals that we can support that dont feel the need to degrade women to do it. that have much more integrity that we can get behind.

ya

that works for peta

rah

[NeedleCast]

62. Is "Getting your Attention" PETAs main goal?

Or is it the humane treatment of animals.

Yes, this latest stunt "got my attention." It did so in a negative way. Ergo, I am less inclined to listen to PETA than I was before. That is pretty much the definition of failure.

[speltwon]

88. Exactly. PETA's stunts harm their cause. When PETA did their holocaust comparison

that was the last straw for me. It's offensive when anti-choicers do it with abortion, it's ABOMINABLE when PETA does it with fucking chickens for pete's sake.

There are some LEGITIMATE organizations out there . Heck, I'm a member of ASPCA. They do good stuff, and they don't do stupid shit, take hypocritical or ridiculous positions, etc.

[NeedleCast]

185. I also support ASPCA

Although those tear-jerker commercials are getting a little over the top...

[speltwon]

197. I;m also not a huge fan of all the glossy literature ASPCA sends out

especially to its members. It just seems kind of wasteful. They don't need to sell me. I'm sold. Spend it on the animals. I have a couple of friends who are State Game officers. Avid conservationists and hunters. Very practical people. So, I listen to their advice about ASPCA etc

[Matariki]

137. Since that seems to be the main defense given by their supporters, you might think so.

That's usually what their supporters say whenever anyone criticizes their antics. As if getting attention somehow magically makes people agree with their agenda. Oh look, a naked woman covered in meat - think I'll give veganism a try :eyes:

[underseasurveyor]

168. Ah for you a negative

But years ago for me, a real eye opener about the inhumane treatment of animals.

[NeedleCast]

187. For you, Perhaps

But look up and down this thread. On a site that is fairly far left, PETAs "get your attention" PR stunts seem to engender more hostility than praise. There's a reason for that, and it's not because we're a bunch of insensative jerks, its because its a poor marketing campaign. People at PETA seem to be tone deaf to the hostility these stunts bring from the people that should be their strongest supporters.

[seabeyond]

188. when they come to amarillo texas to "entertain" a bunch of cowboys with naked women

who are then off to grab their hamburger or steak for lunch, it is pretty damn clear to all that it is not about getting support.

that argument fails before it even starts

[underseasurveyor]

200. I've been at DU long enough

I'm all to familiar with the bandwagon mentality and cliques around here and the collective opines don't necessarily add up to anything meaningful. Just mean.

You said it was a negative delivery for you but for me rather than look at the way the message was delivered I choose to see the message being delivered.

Many naysayers do not make them right.

[blondeatlast]

99. That's such a precious argument. nt

[Wait Wut]

53. I disagree

I was a member of PETA in the first couple of years of their existence (actually worked booths for them and protested a rodeo). They started out with the right idea, but started attracting the "oooohhhh!! Fluffy bunny!!" crowd. They went from having substance to being all about drama and entertainment. In the beginning, I was hanging out with some fairly intelligent folks that had great ideas.

I'll stick with animal rights organizations that actually do some good. Currently, WWF and DofW along with Greenpeace, ASPCA and the Humane Society. Telling people to eat a salad doesn't do shit.

[CrawlingChaos]

122. Isn't WWF a front for game hunters?

Protecting wildlife so there will be plenty of targets for their pleasure-killing sprees.

They're one of the few animal welfare organizations I won't support.

[flvegan]

123. Lord above, please don't call Greenpeace and the WWF "animal rights"

organizations.

[MineralMan]

17. Are they not animals themselves?

Are we not all animals? If it's "for the animals," why do they not help humans who are suffering?

[Ignis]

18. Should a group try to do everything, or should they focus their efforts?

Most do the latter, if they actually want to accomplish anything.

If you disagree, I suggest starting an umbrella group called Fix It All.

[MineralMan]

19. What is it that PETA's trying to do?

What do you think they have actually accomplished? I know what they say, but I don't think that's actually it. They are very good at publicity stunts, though. I have to credit them with that.

Besides: that demonstration featured a couple of healthy looking mammals. I'm in support of that, for sure.

[Ignis]

23. "I know what they say, but I don't think that's actually it."

Well, that's convenient. :eyes:

I can't speak for management, but every PETA worker/volunteer I've ever encountered has been a committed activist for the published, official cause. If you have some special insight into their True Motives (cue ominous music), I suggest you diagram it on a blackboard for us.

[MineralMan]

57. No, I won't bother to diagram it. PETA is simply not that important,

in the grand scheme of things. A very minor organization with a great PR campaign. Good luck to them. They won't get the things they want. But, they're certainly welcome to try.

[Ignis]

84. ESP suddenly on the fritz when asked for support? What a pity.

Not surprising, but disappointing. Oh well, good luck.

[kenny blankenship]

22. We must stop animals from eating other animals. Shoot the lions, poison the foxes, net the dolphins.

Kill all the fish that swim in the seas. If you see a robin scratch a worm from the dirt, cut its head off. The early bird gets capital punishment.

[MineralMan]

59. LOL! Indeed. Animals eating animals. Most humans eat animals.

Oddly enough, lots of animals feed on humans, too. Damn black flies ate me alive last year on my favorite lake. I killed many of them, though, for their temerity in choosing me as a meal. And then, there are the bacteria, but it's not certain whether they're animals or vegetables, or something in between. Fleas, mosquitoes...why the list just goes on and on of animals who want to feed on me.

The PETA folks don't think they're animals, though, it seems. I wonder what they do when a mosquito bites them to suck their oh-so-mammal blood? I'm betting they do the same as I do - SWAT!

The PETA spokesperson I once interviewed for a magazine finally admitted, off the record, that she thought there were too many humans, and that it would be a very good thing if most of them died. As a journalist, I couldn't ask the question that came to mind.

[MedicalAdmin]

117. THe animal food pyramid is narrow at the top of the food chain.

The problem with that argument is that humans, the most efficient predator ever, are too populous to continue with our predatory ways and get away with it anymore. There are just too damn many of us. Not that I am volunteering to go away but on the other hand I don't have any kids...

[MineralMan]

184. I don't have any children either. A conscious decision.

[MedicalAdmin]

207. In my case it's because I'm broke.

On the other hand I am in several friends wills as the person who gets their kids should they die. I don't know if I should be flattered or insulted. Probably both.

[MineralMan]

211. I made that decision in 1965, after studying population trends

and comparing them to resource trends. I just couldn't see how I could contribute in any more meaningful way on my own. I also engaged in lots of activism, and still am doing so, but that was one contribution I could make on a personal level. Fortunately, I found two wonderful women to marry who agreed with that position.

[MedicalAdmin]

234. Two! Holy moley.

Two! Wow.

You sir, are a better man that me. I can barely keep up with one. *pulls hat from head and looks humble*

[MineralMan]

237. In sequence. 17 years and now 20 years. I'm a serial monogamist.

The divorce from the first wife was amicable, and we're still friends, and communicate regularly via Facebook. My wife also talks to my former wife on Facebook. Many things are possible for reasonable people.

[OwnedByFerrets]

189. Humans have a choice. The animals you mentioned do not.

If you are going to make arguments, try making smart ones.

[Urban Prairie]

20. Those Peta girls were covered in goosebumps from neck to ankles brrrr...heh!! n/t

[FLPanhandle]

21. If they caused an accident, the motorists should sue them heavily

Not buying their statistics either.

[Ignis]

24. You've obviously never seen the billboards in Hollywood.

Distracting doesn't even begin to cover it.

[speltwon]

33. PETA's statistics are about as scientifically rigorous as vegans' nutrition claims

iow laughable and they completely ignore scientific evidence to the contrary, as well as that pesky scientific reality - evolution

[FLPanhandle]

45. All fundamentalist groups have their "studies"

I don't buy their statistics anymore than I'd buy anti-abortionists "studies"

[speltwon]

50. Exactly. Or god forbid - abstinence studies.

Their science fu is weak, grasshopper

[Ignis]

86. Proof, please?

[blondeatlast]

48. Apparently they did--and it's right there in the video.

:bounce:

[Ignis]

96. That ought to be an interesting insurance claim.

[WildEyedLiberal]

25. And yet again PETA exploits cheap sexism to get attention

Can these idiots go away already?

[Ignis]

27. PETA workers/volunteers are overwhelmingly female.

Are all of these women "idiots" and guilty of "cheap sexism?"

Every single one? :shrug:

[WildEyedLiberal]

30. I don't know why I'm bothering to respond, but I'll bite

a) I said "PETA" as in the organization, not as in every individual volunteer. A volunteer came up with this ad campaign? I don't think so.

b) Once again, I said "PETA," not "PETA volunteers." I don't need to respond to your ridiculous straw man intimating that I called "every single" PETA volunteer an idiot.

c) Women can absolutely participate in demeaning and sexist activities. This should NOT be news to a progressive. Just because a woman is doing something of her own free will does not mean ipso facto that it is not sexist.

Any more straw men?

[Ignis]

37. Ah, so workers are idiots, volunteers are not?

What about the volunteers in this particular ad campaign? Are they inherently sexist, or simply participating in a sexist activity? Or are they merely "idiots" who are unwitting dupes of PETA?

And yes, it's highly likely that this campaign was the brainchild of a PETA employee--but there's also a good chance that the initial idea came from a volunteer. That's the danger with making broad-brush attacks against a group with a diverse membership base that one doesn't really know anything about.

Let's try to put your post in a different light, shall we?

And yet again PETA Amnesty International exploits cheap sexism sentimentality to get attention

Can these idiots go away already?

Do you think this sort of post says 1) a lot about Amnesty International, or 2) a lot about the prejudices of the person making the post?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[speltwon]

35. Most strippers are female too

And fwiw, I have no problem with stripping as a career. Or prostitution for that matter. But just because a woman chooses to do something doesn't make it an example of rah rah grrrrl empowerment.

[blondeatlast]

51. Do they volunteer to strip naked for these PR efforts? Or does PETA hire models? nt

[MineralMan]

60. No models. There's always someone willing to get nekkid for

the cause. What fun!

[seabeyond]

36. make spectacles of women, yeah. did this in amarillo. bed on corner of street

two lightly clad women freezing their ass off. a bunch of crude, vulgar texas men laughing and snorting, as they went off to get a hamburger.

thanks gals, for making asses of yourself.

[Name removed]

216. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

236. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Motown_Johnny]

28. 2,463 gallons of water for just one pound of meat... holy crap!

water weighs 8 pounds per gallon

2,463 X 8 = 19,704


a 19,704 to 1 ratio by weight for water needed to produce meat to final product


I had no idea it was anywhere near this high and I try to keep informed of such things.

[Ignis]

34. Well...that's beef, not all meats. But it's also a fairly conservative estimate.

Some eco/ag scientists (e.g., Dr. Pimentel @ Cornell) put the figure closer to 12,000 gallons per pound of beef.

[RufusTFirefly]

58. And more than a half gallon of gasoline per pound of beef, too.

Approximately 0.59 gallons.

Furthermore, it requires almost 200 times more fossil fuel just to produce a pound of beef than it requires to produce a pound of potatoes.

And that's only production. It doesn't include the fuel used for processing, packaging, transport, and refrigeration.

Source

[flvegan]

47. Mmmm...PETA thread.

I see I'm late to the show today. Dammit.

[Ignis]

101. You didn't see the vegan bat-signal?

C'mon, man--how can anyone miss a Klieg searchlight projecting the image of a giant piece of broccoli into the sky?

[flvegan]

104. I should've felt the hatred from this thread moving through the air.

Alas, I was at work in a big building. It must not have made it in.

And I never see the broccoli signal for the sunny day we're having here.

[underseasurveyor]

141. It's a re-run

We've seen this same episode too many times. Same bat time, same bat channel, same bat players, same bat bs.

[flvegan]

143. Yeah, but

it's one of those episodes you just can't turn off. You recite the script as it plays out, laugh along with the canned audience response. And when Fonzie sticks the landing without getting his leather jacket wet, you still feel good about him making it over that shark.

[underseasurveyor]

155. {=-[)

:spray:

[JI7]

61. they should just admit they want attention, has nothing to do with getting people to stop eating

meat.

[Luminous Animal]

146. One way of getting people to think is to get them to pay attention.

[JI7]

158. depends on what you want them to think , this is getting attention

but not thinking about becoming vegetarian.

[Luminous Animal]

166. How do you know what other might people think?

[JI7]

169. from what they tell me

[Luminous Animal]

170. Well, other people tell me differently so I guess it is a tie.

[devils chaplain]

64. Sorry to say...

... but this kind of thing doesn't set my mind on concentrating on the ethics of meat-eating.

[Arkana]

67. Um, I'm not sure that American men are going to look at naked women

and immediately think "You know what? I'm giving up red meat!"

[Runework]

69. Peta is a good group

at least they make people think about their relationship with animals.

"stunts" are necessary to get attention these days

[seabeyond]

70. wrong. it is not true any attention is.... that is bunk. what peta does is supporters turn

and are no longer supporters. people that use to praise, diss and speak out against and teach their children other avenues to help animals that actually have integrity

no

peta is not a good group. they feed off the worst in creating a spectacle to get attention. KKK outfits. anything for attention. KKK. are you feeling warm and cozy now? KKK

[Runework]

72. they've done a lot

for instance, as I recall, they were responsible for the big cosmetic companies ending animal experimentation. and they brought attention and managed to end other animal experimentation. and many other things

[seabeyond]

74. so you endorse the use of KKK outfits. hm. k. kk. nt

[Runework]

77. .

I didnt say I agree with everything they do.

I feel they are a good group overall. I know of younger people who got involved in enviromentalism thanks to Peta.

[seabeyond]

90. using racism and sexism is not "good" in my book

there are plenty of org that work for better treatment of animals without the need to demean humans..... in the process.

i can NEVER validate the use of KKK, for any reason, any good.

it says something about them

[Runework]

92. it says

they have a different worldview than you in terms of the value of animals. Doesn't make them racists. Do you consider Jains racists?

and nude bodies = sexism? I dont know, that's just strange to me. Sounds like a hangover from original sin.

[seabeyond]

102. using KKK outfits is merely a different "world view". interesting justification for racism. nt

[Runework]

124. come on,

uh, peta comparing the treatment of animals to human racism is racist? you might consider it a stretch or absurd, but how is it racist?

People (incl me at my more heated moments) called Bush a Nazi when the Iraq war was underway. Now,regardless of whether that was justified or not, does that make those people Nazis themselves?

[seabeyond]

127. the racism is using a KKK outfit to "get noticed". where is the absurdity, but defending

this behavior regardless. a campaign about womens pubic hair. a fuckin campaign on womens pubic hair and the importance of trimming. has to do with animals.... how? using women as a spectacle to be looked at.

this is the absurdity in these threads. they do it to piss people off. people get pissed off. then there defenders come on to defend them. no really, they arent doing to piss people off. they are good people

no

they are asses that use racism and sexism to be noticed.

scum....

god hates fags. used to piss people off. coulter, stern... work at pissing people off. isnt it fun to defend them and say how innocent while we all know what they are doing

[seabeyond]

128. btw... what a weak excuse to say they didnt know exactly what they are doing using KKK outfits

what does calling someone a name in heat of moment have to do with repeatedly offensive campaigns that are racist and sexist

[Runework]

129. uh

wearing a KKK outfit in a protest isn't racist anymore than people dressing up as hitler to protest the Iraq war

you seem confused. PETA doesnt endorse discrimination to minorities or women. THey aren't racist. THey may be tactless, but that isnt the same thing

"god hates fags"= slogan of people who want to restrict rights of homosexuals

totally different, sorry

[Runework]

130. here's what Peta says

First, please know that PETA isn't using women's bodies. Women are using their own bodies. The women who use their bodies as political tools do so willingly and gladly, and they don't like to be told to cover up by other women who don't agree with their choices. They feel that they have the right to express themselves in this way, and they don't want some women dictating and criticizing them for how much skin they wish to show any more than women who lived during the early days of feminism and before wanted men to tell them to cover up.
As for PETA, we recognize the simple fact that there's a lot of competition for consumers' attention, so we are creative and provocative in order to make sure that people do turn around and stare and then learn something about the cruel industries that we fight. Our activists and celebrity supporters gladly use their bodies as a sure-fire way to draw attention to how animals are exploited. The women are not exploited--they are happy to participate in a social cause. They show about as much flesh as you might see at the beach. They are proud to be able to use their bodies for a good purpose--to draw attention to the suffering of elephants who are beaten bloody and forced to live in chains and to the plight of other animals who endure torture, isolation, terror, and violent death. And it works--Olivia Munn's participation in our anti-circus campaign prompted more than 300 clothed people to participate in our protest against Ringling Bros. at the Staples Center in Los Angeles last week.

As an organization headed and founded by a woman and staffed largely by feminist women, PETA knows about the serious problems that women face, both here in the U.S. and in countries where women are forced to cover up and shut up. Impassioned individuals have been "going naked" since Lady Godiva protested taxes. We believe that all people should be free to use their minds and bodies as political instruments.

If we might be of assistance in the future, please contact me directly anytime.

Sincerely,

Heather Carlson

[seabeyond]

136. make sure that people do turn around and stare ... yes. use women as spectacles

to draw attention. talk about womens pubic hair and making sure it is trim, have women fuck veggies so men will look, use KKK outfits, so people will look.

exactly

[Luminous Animal]

149. Some people set fire to themselves. Some people get naked.

As an experienced activist, an alumni in a radical feminist organization, I have no problem with using my body to draw attention to an issue. In all of your examples above, women will look, too.

[seabeyond]

226. i would have a problem if they ran a campaign people catching themselveson fire, too. nt

[seabeyond]

133. ok. justify use of kkk. anything up for grab, as long as it is your org.

whatever. done

[Ignis]

115. "Do you consider Jains racists?"

Thanks for making this point. I try to bring up Jainism in almost every one of these ridiculous PETA threads, but it's mostly met with blank looks.

Also, welcome to DU. :hi:

[defendandprotect]

181. Agree -- and the public will wake up -- Global Warming will do it -- sadly -- !!

[Brickbat]

75. Snore.

[zappaman]

119. I was there

Fun to watch and then walked over to JUICY BURGER and had a great lunch!

[yawnmaster]

131. They . are . showering . nude?!!! have they no decency??

Those vegans and their nude showering, what next, nude baths???

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

186. Me too! I showered nude this morning.

and then cooked some bacon and eggs (after putting some clothes on)

A great way to start the day!

:hi:

[WilliamPitt]

196. This thread is useless without pictures.

:)

[Lucian]

201. They have a point.

Most of our freshwater is used in raising cattle. If people give up eating any meat, hell for only a couple a days a week, that would save millions of gallons.

But of course nobody listens to PETA because they're a bunch of "nutcases."

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

238. Look at the size of this thread -- they listen ... !!

:)

[WatsonT]

214. Gotta love PETA

They have a lot of silly ideas but they put on a good show.

[cleanhippie]

218. And PETA dives even DEEPER into irrelevancy with another "attention-whore" stunt.

Yawn.

[Lucian]

242. And yet you're talking about them.

So something must be working. :)

[cleanhippie]

243. Sure, working to take up bandwidth.

Doesnt make them any more relevant

[MrSlayer]

240. There is no proof that they are actually nude.

Not that I can see anyway. If you want to protest something by being nude, actually be nude.

[WillyT]

241. ROFLMAO !!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

:yourock:

:hi: