A Donzen Question Poll (Please read)

[H2O Man]

I have a few questions that I am hoping forum members will find worth answering. As always, when I ask such questions, there are no “wrong” answers. Every answer is, by definition, “right.” Before I make the short list, I'd like to give a little context of recent events that inspired this.

Yesterday afternoon, I stopped at a local grocery store to pick up the supplies needed to make the evening meal for my family. While standing in line, I heard the woman running the register ask the fellow ahead of me if he wanted to donate $1 for the Red Cross relief effort in Japan? No, he said, I think we need a relief effort in this country.

If that were all he had said, I'd have though it just fine. But, of course, it wasn't. He started chattering about “the Japanese” and “the Chinese.” Not surprisingly, the “they own half our country” bit. He looked back towards me, apparently for some response. I said that I believe our country has been sold out from within. His face did not register any response, before he turned and walked away with his groceries.

Last night, I attended two meetings at my daughters' school. The two overlapped, and so I was not able to be at either for the entire time. The first was for my daughter and our foreign exchange student to be inducted into “Honor Society.” The other was a “Booster Club” meeting, where we discussed the issues involving budget cuts, and my campaign for a seat on the school board.

In the larger sense, none of that would seem of any particular significance. I mention it simply because it struck me last night how, within even a relatively small community, there can be a wide range of opinions on important issues. The fellow in the grocery store was, I would estimate, of the generation that fought in Korea. He no doubt had grown up thinking about WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. There was that hint of racism – the fear of “the yellow menace” – that quite a few people of that era were infected with.

While I am uncomfortable with both racism and an unwillingness to help human beings during times of disaster, I generally try to “meet” people where they are at. Perhaps he is feeling the economic pinch. Maybe his children and/or grandchildren can't find jobs. Maybe he could not afford to give a dollar, and engaged in his little rant to cover that up.

The second school meeting was also interesting. It included an informal discussion at the end, which included the lone liberal board member, several teachers, a few students, and a lot of parents. There was at least one thing everyone agreed upon: we all want to maintain a high-quality school, where all of the children and youth can get a solid education. The disagreements were limited to two areas: how we can do that during the harsh economic climate, and personalities. Shocking, I know.

The rising prices in the grocery store; the ignorance of a likely registered voter unable to distinguish between China and Japan; a school budget crisis; community members arguing; and the near certainty that I will be overwhelmingly elected to serve on the school board …. all of these could easily combine to make me discouraged. But, oh, thank goodness for the opportunity to hang out with a group of 11th and 12th grade high school students who are consistently on the high honor role. That's the future in motion.

Our country is in motion. In many ways, the future looks rather bleak. Grocery and fuel prices are rising; employment options are limited; the two wars that Bush & Cheney began continue; there are tragic events in Japan; unions are being viciously attacked; and corporate threats to our environment are accelerating.

President Obama has gotten our nation involved in the civil war in Libya, This has not only divided our country, but has also caused fractures within the republican party, Democratic Party, and even the small community of the Democratic Underground. Again, shocking, that.

One thing that I believe that all sincere forum members here agree upon is that humanitarian efforts are a good thing. Yet, much like attempting to provide a quality school, there are very different opinions on how to deliver services to reach those goals.

A few last points. First, since coming of age during the Johnson and Nixon administrations, I have some strongly-held opinions on both the positive and negative potentials of the federal government. I'm convinced that the positive, as a rule, comes from following the Constitution, and the negative from “bending” or breaking it. Second, I believe that we are, for all intent and purposes, at a point in time where enough nations are in internal and/or external violent conflict, to justify viewing this era as “World War 3.” And third, I strongly endorsed Barack Obama for President; have become increasingly dissatisfied with his performance (although that is tempered by the recognition that all recent Presidents have been absorbed by the machine), and am hoping that if re-elected, he concentrates efforts on helping the working class and poor domestically, and ending foreign wars.

Now, a few questions.

{1} Do you believe that the President of the United States has the authority to involve our military forces in a foreign conflict, other than to repel/ respond to an act of aggression, without Congressional authorization?

{2} Do you believe that Congress, as a result of dynamics including Newt Gingrich & Co.'s “Contract on America,” is in essence “broken”?

{3} If you answered “yes” to #2, does a broken Congress ever justify a US President's bending or breaking Constitutional law ? (If so, could you list a possible example?)

{4} What is your opinion on the events involved in what is known as the “Gulf of Tonkin Resolution”?

{5} In the 1970s, Democrats in Congress opted not to include President Nixon's attacks in Cambodia in the Articles of Impeachment. Do you believe that they should have included this charge?

{6} During Congressional hearings on the Iran/Contra scandals, Democrats privately discussed the possibility of impeaching President Reagan. They opted not to, because they believed it would create a crisis in American politics. Do you believe that Congress had an obligation to impeach the Gipper for violating Constitutional and other federal laws?

{7} Should Democrats in Congress have attempted to impeach President George W. Bush for purposefully lying our nation into war in Iraq?

{8} Should those same Democrats have attempted to impeach VP Cheney for his “high crimes and misdemeanors” in the Plame scandal?

{9} Should President Obama have gotten Congressional approval before involving our military in the civil war in Libya?

{10} What is your opinion of the US Constitution? Is it still valid and worth following? Should there be another Constitutional Convention?

{11} How would you rate your knowledge of the Constitution? Have you taken any college courses that focused on its history and works? Do you frequently read books on it? Do you follow US Supreme Court cases closely? If so, for how long have you been interested in this topic?

{12} Do you agree or disagree with Arthur Schlesinger, Jr.'s opinion, found in his book “The Imperial Presidency,” that US Presidents from both parties have expanded executive powers during times of war? If so, do you think this is ever justified?

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to answer any or all of these questions. Again, I am not asking these in a “right or wrong” context. I'm just curious about people's opinions. I also think that, should many people invest the effort to respond, it may help the community understand that good people can have different opinions. Perhaps it can assist us in meeting each other where we are all at, and recognizing that despite some differences, we tend to still have many important things in common.

Your friend,
H2O Man

[PDJane]

1. for what it's worth:

1. No.
2. Yes. The Contract with America was pretty lopsided, as a contract, and I think the culture wars were always pretty lame. However, the GOP are constantly and consistently delusional.
3. No.
4. The Gulf of Tonkin was SOP; using reactions to provocations has been quite the usual procedure. Do I think it's ever right or justified? No. On the other hand, I missed the chorus asking for my opinion.
5. Yes. And international opinion is the same. That is why Mr. Kissinger is wanted for crimes against humanity for that bombing.
6. Yes.
7. Yes.
8. Yes, but I understand them not trying to do so.
9. Yes.
10. Yes, it's still valid; it is, after all, the law of the land. On the other hand, if for no other reason than making women equal citizens, there should be another convention.
11. I do read and follow court cases, but it's strictly curiosity. Since I am not an American citizen,I have no skin in the game,as it were.
12. Yes, I agree. I understand the urge to do so, because events can move very fast and congress can move very slowly indeed. However, the question of whether it is right to do so is more problematic; I personally feel that the extra time for contemplation would likely be a good thing in most cases. I would also point out that there have been so many military actions since WWII that almost every American president since that time could be convicted of crimes under the Geneva conventions.

[eleny]

2. I've answered these questions privately to think about them on my own

Some of this is quite painful since it wrenches a person. I marched and protested against Johnson's policies as well as Nixon's. So I feel awful allowing Obama latitude. The only reason I would, if I choose to do that some day, is because America has changed so much with the last administration. It feels like we took a quantum leap from the furrows that Reagan cut into our economy.

We lost over 50,000 people in the Vietnam conflict. How did the old VFW cranks square their fidelity to those who served while not allowing Vietnam vets to join their organization? Those guys hated the protesters and shunned the soldiers. Go figure. I recall that they didn't seem to mind at the time. But now we grind each other to a pulp over what stand we take over this or that issue of war.

With the Constitution it's supposed to be easier. But because we've bent those rules over time we get ourselves into these knots.

/ramble

[democrank]

3. Lots to think about here, H20 Man.

1. No
2. Yes
3. No
4. I never was convinced that American ships were attacked by the North Vietnamese Navy in the
Tonkin Gulf which led to the Tonkin Resolution. Congress gave away the store.
5. Yes
6. Yes
7. Yes
8. Yes
9. Yes
10. Yes
11. I`m no Constitutional scholar but I do follow Supreme Court cases (and other important cases)
closely.
12. The expansion of executive powers troubles me no matter which party is in power. America doesn`t
have a king.

[LaurenG]

4. Wow

{1} Do you believe that the President of the United States has the authority to involve our military forces in a foreign conflict, other than to repel/ respond to an act of aggression, without Congressional authorization? No

{2} Do you believe that Congress, as a result of dynamics including Newt Gingrich & Co.'s “Contract on America,” is in essence “broken”? yes

{3} If you answered “yes” to #2, does a broken Congress ever justify a US President's bending or breaking Constitutional law ? (If so, could you list a possible example?) No
{4} What is your opinion on the events involved in what is known as the “Gulf of Tonkin Resolution”? Congress was not given truthful information to start with, it was a bad resolution.
{5} In the 1970s, Democrats in Congress opted not to include President Nixon's attacks in Cambodia in the Articles of Impeachment. Do you believe that they should have included this charge?yes

{6} During Congressional hearings on the Iran/Contra scandals, Democrats privately discussed the possibility of impeaching President Reagan. They opted not to, because they believed it would create a crisis in American politics. Do you believe that Congress had an obligation to impeach the Gipper for violating Constitutional and other federal laws? yes

{7} Should Democrats in Congress have attempted to impeach President George W. Bush for purposefully lying our nation into war in Iraq?yes

{8} Should those same Democrats have attempted to impeach VP Cheney for his “high crimes and misdemeanors” in the Plame scandal? yes

{9} Should President Obama have gotten Congressional approval before involving our military in the civil war in Libya? yes

{10} What is your opinion of the US Constitution? Is it still valid and worth following? Should there be another Constitutional Convention? Yes and no other convention.

{11} How would you rate your knowledge of the Constitution? Have you taken any college courses that focused on its history and works? Do you frequently read books on it? Do you follow US Supreme Court cases closely? If so, for how long have you been interested in this topic? My knowledge is sorely lacking I only took basic history, political science and history, the constitution didn't interest me enough at the time. :( I wish I had paid more attention

{12} Do you agree or disagree with Arthur Schlesinger, Jr.'s opinion, found in his book “The Imperial Presidency,” that US Presidents from both parties have expanded executive powers during times of war? If so, do you think this is ever justified? agree It's never justified - power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Nearly every president in my lifetime has taken the liberty and feels justified since the precedent was set with each predecessor.

[panader0]

5. Here goes

1. Yes. He's the CIC. While not brought formally to Congress, weren't most key members contacted? "congressional authorization" ? Newt Gingrech's recent flip flop (yes I know he's not in Congress anymore) is typical of the blockade that would be faced.
2. No. I have hope that our Congress can be the instrument it's supposed to be.
4. False Flag--an excuse to start a war. There are other examples in our history
5. thro 8. Yes of course, but impeachment is overrated. Clinton was impeached for a bj, or the circumstances thereof, what happened? It can lead to punishments, but impeachment these days seems to be so commonly mentioned, does it have teeth?
9. See answer for #1. What if there is no time to hold formal discussions? He is the CIC
10. The best political document to date. Could it use a tune-up? Perhaps there are things that need to be seen in a more modern world. But the spirit of the Constitution should be followed.
11. No
12. Yes.

You are a smart person.

Congrats on your election to the school board.

[H2O Man]

10. Thank you.

I recently entered the race for a school board seat. This is an area of upstate New York that is overwhelming registered republican. Still, I think that I have a pretty good chance ..... though my comment in the OP was tongue-in-cheek ..... because about half the republicans like me, and the other half might find it easier to blame a democrat for all problems, than to take responsibility.

[pscot]

6. I remember watching a Senate debate on Cspan

back about 1986 or so. The Senate was arguing over whether and how far they should continue the pursuit of Iran/contra. By then it was apparent that Reagan had probably committed impeachable offenses and it was equally clear the Congress had no stomach for an impeachment fight. Fritz Hollings summed things up in his wonderful Carolina drawl. Everyone knows, he said, that if we keep on with this we goan catch the President. The Republicans erupted in a storm of outrage and when it subsided, so did the Iran/Contra investigation. The Tonkin Gulf affair probably set a precedent. I don't recall any serious talk about impeachment over it, probably in part because the entire Congress was complicit. They all voted for the Resolution, except for Fullbright if IIRC, and LBJ was a creature of the Congress. It would have been like impeaching themselves. Like any form of moral depravity, Presidential over-reaching seems to get easier with practice. As W.is alledged to have said, the Constitution is just a god-damned piece of paper.

[zeemike]

7. I will try.

{1} Do you believe that the President of the United States has the authority to involve our military forces in a foreign conflict, other than to repel/ respond to an act of aggression, without Congressional authorization?
...No

{2} Do you believe that Congress, as a result of dynamics including Newt Gingrich & Co.'s “Contract on America,” is in essence “broken”?
...Yes and has been for some time.

{3} If you answered “yes” to #2, does a broken Congress ever justify a US President's bending or breaking Constitutional law ? (If so, could you list a possible example?)
...NO...two wrongs do not make a right

{4} What is your opinion on the events involved in what is known as the “Gulf of Tonkin Resolution”?
...It was a false flag operation to give Johnson reason for war.

{5} In the 1970s, Democrats in Congress opted not to include President Nixon's attacks in Cambodia in the Articles of Impeachment. Do you believe that they should have included this charge?
...Yes because it was the most serious one

{6} During Congressional hearings on the Iran/Contra scandals, Democrats privately discussed the possibility of impeaching President Reagan. They opted not to, because they believed it would create a crisis in American politics. Do you believe that Congress had an obligation to impeach the Gipper for violating Constitutional and other federal laws?
...yes

{7} Should Democrats in Congress have attempted to impeach President George W. Bush for purposefully lying our nation into war in Iraq?
...Yes

{8} Should those same Democrats have attempted to impeach VP Cheney for his “high crimes and misdemeanors” in the Plame scandal?
...Yes

{9} Should President Obama have gotten Congressional approval before involving our military in the civil war in Libya?
...yes

{10} What is your opinion of the US Constitution? Is it still valid and worth following? Should there be another Constitutional Convention?
...Yes and yes a convention to sort out and codify the problems we see in it....like defining what a person is.

{11} How would you rate your knowledge of the Constitution? Have you taken any college courses that focused on its history and works? Do you frequently read books on it? Do you follow US Supreme Court cases closely? If so, for how long have you been interested in this topic?
...Fair

{12} Do you agree or disagree with Arthur Schlesinger, Jr.'s opinion, found in his book “The Imperial Presidency,” that US Presidents from both parties have expanded executive powers during times of war? If so, do you think this is ever justified?
...A big yes there, and that is the greatest threat to our constitutional form of government and democracy that we have.

But what we need to turn things around is more Watermen on the school board and other local positions....and displace the Plains.

[H2O Man]

8. Thank you!

to those who have taken the time to answer so far.

If 243 more DUers will answer these questions in the next twenty minutes, I would really appreciate it.

[rosesaylavee]

9. ...

{1} Do you believe that the President of the United States has the authority to involve our military forces in a foreign conflict, other than to repel/ respond to an act of aggression, without Congressional authorization? ~ No.

{2} Do you believe that Congress, as a result of dynamics including Newt Gingrich & Co.'s “Contract on America,” is in essence “broken”? ~ Yes

{3} If you answered “yes” to #2, does a broken Congress ever justify a US President's bending or breaking Constitutional law ? (If so, could you list a possible example?) ~ No. We either have a law we follow or why have it then?

{4} What is your opinion on the events involved in what is known as the “Gulf of Tonkin Resolution”? ~ McNamara was lower than scum. And certain members of our govt or PTB realized that hey, they can make any kind of ***t happen and tell people a story and the people will believe it if scared enough.

{5} In the 1970s, Democrats in Congress opted not to include President Nixon's attacks in Cambodia in the Articles of Impeachment. Do you believe that they should have included this charge? ~ Yes. War and the loss of life should not be taken as lightly as it is here in this country.

{6} During Congressional hearings on the Iran/Contra scandals, Democrats privately discussed the possibility of impeaching President Reagan. They opted not to, because they believed it would create a crisis in American politics. Do you believe that Congress had an obligation to impeach the Gipper for violating Constitutional and other federal laws? ~ Yes. No one is above the law. Not even the Gipper.

{7} Should Democrats in Congress have attempted to impeach President George W. Bush for purposefully lying our nation into war in Iraq? ~ OMG. Yes.

{8} Should those same Democrats have attempted to impeach VP Cheney for his “high crimes and misdemeanors” in the Plame scandal?
~ Yes.

{9} Should President Obama have gotten Congressional approval before involving our military in the civil war in Libya? ~ Yes.

{10} What is your opinion of the US Constitution? Is it still valid and worth following? Should there be another Constitutional Convention? ~ The Constitution is one of the finest set of laws devised. Unfortunately it takes courageous people to preserve it and we haven't had too many of those in the past 50 years.

{11} How would you rate your knowledge of the Constitution? Have you taken any college courses that focused on its history and works? Do you frequently read books on it? Do you follow US Supreme Court cases closely? If so, for how long have you been interested in this topic? ~ I have read it thru at least once but not a scholar. Been interested in SCOTUS moderately prior to 2000 - Clarence Thomas' hearings were fascinating to listen to on the radio for me but the 2000 selection of GWB caught my immediate attention and have been watching them closely since.

{12} Do you agree or disagree with Arthur Schlesinger, Jr.'s opinion, found in his book “The Imperial Presidency,” that US Presidents from both parties have expanded executive powers during times of war? If so, do you think this is ever justified? ~ Agree. The Presidency has grown beyond what is healthy for a democracy. Starting a war should never be in the power of any one person in a democracy.

****

And you are running for school board! Congratudolences!

[myrna minx]

11. K&R - I don't have enough time to answer thoughtfully this morning -

but I'll return later to complete the poll. Thank you for your thought provoking post.

[H2O Man]

12. This offer won't last!

Answer now, and by golly, we will DOUBLE your satisfaction. You pay only the shipping and handling.

[alsame]

13. My answers:

{1} No.

{2} Yes, I believe Congress is broken and corrupt. The people aren't being represented adequately. Most elected officials represent the interests of their corporate masters, not their constituents.

{3} No.

{4} Contrary to what I was taught in school, I don't believe the official story. It was either a complete fabrication or a deliberate exaggeration used to get us more heavily involved in combat.

{5} Yes.

{6} Yes. And I don't believe the Dems were concerned about a crisis, I think they were worried about their own re-elections if they supported such an action against the 'beloved' President.

{7} Yes, this one seems like a real no-brainer.

{8} Yes.

{9} Yes.

{10} I think the US Constitution is a valid framework, but does need to be amended as the world changes and issues emerge that could not possibly have been anticipated by the framers. My biggest problem with the Constitution is that it is now interpreted by a fascist and corrupt SCOTUS that is not held accountable on any level.

{11} My knowledge is limited to high school and college US Gov't courses. I'm by no means an expert. Never read a book other than the textbooks used in aforementioned classes. I follow some cases closely, more so in the last decade since the Bush v. Gore coup d'etat and the appointments of Roberts and Alito.

{12} Yes, I think it's been happening since Johnson and certainly since Nixon. Never justified in what is supposed to be a representative democracy with checks and balances.

Great questions, H2O Man!! I hope this helps.

[Me.]

14. Your Campaign!!!!!!!!

Shoo in!

1.No

2.Yes

3.No

5.Yes

6.Yes

7.Yes

8.Yes

9.Yes

10. I still have the greatest respect for the Constitution and think it a miracle of a document. At this time I don't think we should make any changes as I fear the changes would be based on ideology and would leave us with a perverted document

11. A good basic understanding. Do follow the court (please notice my use of a small c in reference to the current court)

12. I think such a notion, which a president faced with an ideological congress might find helpful, is dangerous and open to abuse. Not sure if it is ever justified though a case could be made for FDR.

[JonLP24]

15. K&R

1. No
2. Yes
3. No
4. To keep this short, a bad idea
5. Don't know enough about that at this point.
6. Yes
7. Yes
8. Yes
9. Yes
10. I feel it is being eroded away with public support in many cases starting with the Patriot Act and the Executive branch gaining too much power. Something needs to be done and if Constitutional Convention is appropriate, then I support that. I do feel it is valid and worth following but in many cases it isn't.
11. I'd say it is OK. Could be a lot better. I haven't taken any college courses but am actually thinking about it at least for state level next fall. I read a book about every Supreme Court case at the time it was printed but never actually finished it due to library time limits. Interested since I've been interested in politics which was around 2002-2003(when Bush was leading us up to war).

12. A. Yes B. No

[Innoma]

16. I'll play!

{1} Do you believe that the President of the United States has the authority to involve our military forces in a foreign conflict, other than to repel/ respond to an act of aggression, without Congressional authorization?

No.

{2} Do you believe that Congress, as a result of dynamics including Newt Gingrich & Co.'s “Contract on America,” is in essence “broken”?

Most definitely.

{3} If you answered “yes” to #2, does a broken Congress ever justify a US President's bending or breaking Constitutional law ? (If so, could you list a possible example?)

No.

{4} What is your opinion on the events involved in what is known as the “Gulf of Tonkin Resolution”?

It set a disturbing precedent that allowed presidents way too much leeway in pursuing military action.

{5} In the 1970s, Democrats in Congress opted not to include President Nixon's attacks in Cambodia in the Articles of Impeachment. Do you believe that they should have included this charge?

Hard to explain, but I'm going to have to say 'no' on this one (although he most certainly should have been indicted and prosecuted for Watergate).

{6} During Congressional hearings on the Iran/Contra scandals, Democrats privately discussed the possibility of impeaching President Reagan. They opted not to, because they believed it would create a crisis in American politics. Do you believe that Congress had an obligation to impeach the Gipper for violating Constitutional and other federal laws?

Absolutely! The myth of a sacrosanct American Presidency is a dangerous one.

{7} Should Democrats in Congress have attempted to impeach President George W. Bush for purposefully lying our nation into war in Iraq?

Yes.

{8} Should those same Democrats have attempted to impeach VP Cheney for his “high crimes and misdemeanors” in the Plame scandal?

Yes.

{9} Should President Obama have gotten Congressional approval before involving our military in the civil war in Libya?

Yes.

{10} What is your opinion of the US Constitution? Is it still valid and worth following? Should there be another Constitutional Convention?

I think its held up surprisingly well.

{11} How would you rate your knowledge of the Constitution? Have you taken any college courses that focused on its history and works? Do you frequently read books on it? Do you follow US Supreme Court cases closely? If so, for how long have you been interested in this topic?

I am 'functionally literate,' I suppose, but certainly no expert. I have taken college subjects on the subject, but rarely follow Supreme Court stuff as these days its too depressing.

{12} Do you agree or disagree with Arthur Schlesinger, Jr.'s opinion, found in his book “The Imperial Presidency,” that US Presidents from both parties have expanded executive powers during times of war? If so, do you think this is ever justified?

I think its a given that any President will do anything possible to expand the executive, but I don't feel its ever truly justified. Jesus, imagine the mayhem if Nixon had been successful in his attempts to rearrange various branches of the government! To borrow a phrase from John D. Ehrlichman, it would have "made the birds sing..." And not in a good way.