Libyan Revolution Day 35 (Benghazi says thanks, Misurata secured after 5 days shelling)

[joshcryer]

Links to sites with updates: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-24">AJE Live Blog March 24 (today) http://blogs.aljazeera.net/twitter-dashboard">AJE Twitter Dashboard http://feb17.info/">feb17.info http://www.livestream.com/libya17feb?utm_source=lsplayer&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=footerlinks">Libya Alhurra (live video webcast from Benghazi) http://www.libyafeb17.com/">libyafeb17.com

Twitter links: http://twitter.com/#!/aymanm">Ayman Mohyeldin, with AJE http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn">Ben Wedeman, with CNN http://twitter.com/#!/tripolitanian">tripolitanian, a Libyan from Tripoli http://twitter.com/#!/BaghdadBrian">Brian Conley, reporter in Libya http://twitter.com/#!/freelibyanyouth">FreeLibyanYouth, Libyan advocate http://twitter.com/#!/LibyaFeb17_com">LibyaFeb17.com twitter account http://twitter.com/#!/ChangeInLibya">ChangeInLibya, Libyan advocate

Useful links: http://audioboo.fm/feb17voices">feb17voices http://www.google.com/search?q=time+in+libya">Current time in Libya http://www.islamicfinder.org/cityPrayerNew.php?country=libya">Prayer times in Libya

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x722527">Day 34 part 2 here.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-rebels-intel-20110324,0,5352122.story">U.S. finds no organized Al Qaeda presence in Libya opposition, officials say
Reporting from Washington— Despite fears that Islamic extremists may be playing a hidden role in the rebellion against Moammar Kadafi, the U.S. intelligence community has found no organized presence of Al Qaeda or its allies among the Libyan opposition, American officials say.

A U.S. intelligence-gathering effort that began shortly after anti-Kadafi forces started seizing towns in eastern Libya last month has not uncovered a significant presence of Islamic militants among the insurgents.

"We're keeping an eye out for extremist activity in Libya, but we haven't seen much, if any, to date," said a U.S. counter-terrorism official. A Defense official added that the U.S. had not seen a direct link between the opposition and extremists.

A congressional staffer who receives intelligence briefings did not dispute those assessments. But the aide added: "There ought to be a concern and recognition that there may be such a linkage. There should also be an appreciation that the opposition is not a uniform, monolithic movement."

http://www.euronews.net/2011/03/23/benghazi-rally-thanks-coalition-for-air-strikes/">Benghazi rally thanks coalition for air strikes - video
People in Benghazi have held a rally in support of the allied air campaign against Colonel Gaddafi’s forces.

Coalition air strikes are credited with stopping an advance by government forces in its tracks, and giving a huge morale boost to the rebels.

Among the crowds were banners expressing thanks – in English and French – to the countries involved, and plenty of pre-Gaddafi era Libyan flags.

As the UN prepares again to discuss Libya, there were also some words of advice for those who have not backed military action.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/23/libya-allied-air-strikes-misrata">Libya: Allied air strikes secure Misrata for rebels
Nearly 12 hours of allied air strikes have broken the Libyan regime's five-day bloody assault on the key rebel-held town of Misrata.

Residents said yesterday that the aerial bombardment destroyed tanks and artillery and sent many of Muammar Gaddafi's forces fleeing from Misrata, ending a siege and attack by the regime that cost nearly 100 lives from random shelling, snipers and bitter street fighting.

Mohammed Ali, an IT engineer at Misrata's main hospital, said that waves of air strikes began shortly after midnight on Wednesday.

"They bombed a lot of sites of the Gaddafi army. There is a former hospital where his tanks were based. All the tanks and the hospital were destroyed. A column of tanks was destroyed on the edge of the city," he said. "After that there was no shelling. We are very relieved. We are very grateful. We want to thank the world. The Gaddafi forces are scattered around. All that is left is the snipers and our fighters can take care of them."

Videos to bring the Libyan Revolution into context:

The Battle of Benghazi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vChMDuNd0

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaPnMnpCAA

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMzwQvcx62s

Latest indiscriminate shelling in Misurata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wop3C4zrPXI


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x677397">Text of the resolution.

How will a no fly zone work? AJE reports: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWEwehTtK2k

Canada:

http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110317/cf-libya-canada/20110317/?hub=WinnipegHome">Canada to send six CF-18s for Libya 'no-fly' mission
Canada will contribute six CF-18 fighter jets to help enforce a no-fly zone in Libya, sources have told CTV News.

Norway:

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFOSN00509220110318">Norway to join military intervention in Libya
OSLO, March 18 (Reuters) - Norway will join the international military action against Muammar Gaddafi's forces in Libya, a Norwegian daily quoted the defence minister as saying on its website on Friday.

"We will contribute to the operation," Grete Faremo told the daily Verdens Gang. "But it is too early to say exactly in what way. Sending air capabilities would be natural."

Belgium:

http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/monde/2011-03-18/la-belgique-prete-a-une-operation-militaire-en-libye-828970.php">Belgium ready for a military operation in Libya
Our country is available to take part in a military operation in Libya, following the UN vote authorizing the use of force against Gaddafi. The government has observed, in Parliament yesterday, a broad consensus in the Belgian political class on the need to prevent the Libyan leader to crush the rebellion in Benghazi.

Qatar and the UAE:

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/776/?SID=e80884adc09a37d26904578a9b5978cb">Run-up for Western world’s next military commitment ... with unusual support
France and the United Kingdom, which spearheaded the diplomatic push in the Security Council for the implementation of a no-fly zone, received unusual but certainly very welcome support. According to a further unnamed AFP source, the Council confirmed that Qatar and the UAE will join the international effort.

Denmark:

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/international/89-international/51229-denmark-ready-for-action-against-gaddafi.html">Denmark ready for action against Gaddafi
Espersen will discuss the resolution “as soon as possible” with the other political parties.

“We’re ready to take action immediately, and that includes ensuring prompt treatment of the resolution in parliament, so that Denmark can deploy its four F-16 fighter jets,” she said.

France:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/world/africa/19libya.html?src=twrhp">Following U.N. Vote, France Vows Libya Action ‘Soon’
UNITED NATIONS — Only hours after the United Nations Security Council voted to authorize military action, including airstrikes against Libyan tanks and heavy artillery and impose a no-flight zone to try to avert a rout of rebels by forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi. French officials said on Friday that military action would start “within a few hours” and news reports said British and French warplanes would spearhead the attack.

Italy:

http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE72G2HE20110317">Italy to make bases available for Libya no-fly zone-source
TUNIS, March 17 (Reuters) - Italy is ready to make its military bases available to enforce a U.N. Security Counci resolution imposing a no-fly zone on Libya, an Italian government source told Reuters on Thursday.

United Kingdom:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12770467">Libya: UK forces prepare after UN no-fly zone vote
UK forces are preparing to help enforce a no-fly zone over Libya after the UN backed "all necessary measures", short of an invasion, to protect civilians.

United States:

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/nations-draw-up-plans-for-no-fly-zone-over-libya-1.2765122">Nations draw up plans for no-fly zone over Libya
The United States, France and Britain were making plans Friday to prevent Moammar Gadhafi's forces from attacking Libyans after the U.N. Security Council authorized a no-fly zone over Libya and "all necessary measures" to protect civilians.

Jordan:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/military-strikes-on-libya-within-hours-20110318-1bzii.html?from=smh_sb">Military strikes on Libya 'within hours'
Jordan, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates will join international forces ready to enforce the no-fly zone, US Congress and UN diplomatic sources say.

Spain:

http://english.cri.cn/6966/2011/03/19/2801s627320.htm">Spain Expected to Join NATO No-fly Zone Enforcement over Libya Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero is expected to confirm Spain's contribution of two air force bases at a summit in Paris to discuss the enforcement of a no-fly zone over Libya Saturday.

"One month ago (Western countries) were sooo nice, so nice like pussycats," Saif says in a contemptuous sing-song tone."Now they want to be really aggressive like tigers. (But) soon they will come back, and cut oil deals, contracts. We know this game." - http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058389,00.html">Saif Gaddafi

(Yeah, Saif, as if you weren't "cutting oil deals, contracts" with western states. Who are the 'tigers' now? Bombing your own people.)

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0">March 10 7:28pm Saif al Islam Gaddafi says "the time has come for full-scale military action" against Libyan rebels. He goes on to say that Libyan forces loyal to his family "will never surrender, even if western powers intervene".

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/02/25/world/middleeast/map-of-how-the-protests-unfolded-in-libya.html">Click here for updated map

Military Installations



Oil Map



http://bit.ly/fe3P">Google Earth DL here to see positions of army and patrolling route of mercenaries

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=212059469427545728757.00049c4df2474b6543347&ll=31.203405,30.058594&spn=96.173452,183.867188&z=3">MAP of Protests across the Middle East

Mohammed Nabbous, killed by Gaddafi's forces while trying to report on the massacre in Benghazi

"I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to lose the battle" -Mohammed Nabbous, a month ago when all this began

I'm struggling to come up with something to say about this man. I was not aware of the Libyan uprising until I saw Mo's first report, begging for help, posted here on DU. I was stricken. Here was a man giving everything he had to explain a situation that clearly terrified him, I would not call him a coward in that moment, but you could see the fear in his eyes, and desperation in his voice. For 30 days Nabbous would spend many hours covering the uprising in Benghazi. For many nights I would go to sleep with the webcast of Benghazi live on my computer screen, looking to it occasionally to be sure it was still 'there.' Mo treated the chat room as if we were his friends, and in some way, we were. I never signed up to LiveStream to thank him for all his work and it seems somewhat shallow to do so now, given that I was a lurker for so long. Ever since I took over posting these threads "Libya Alhurra" has been linked as a source of information. It wasn't until last night, when I posted, and twitter posted on Mo's adventures out into Benghazi to try to determine the truth of the situation, that Mo's webchannel became a hit, over 2000 people were watching him stream live. This was curious to him because he'd done many reports like this in the past but he appeared somewhat bemused that the view count exploded as it did. Last night Mo became a star. This is a man who first started out with a webcast replete with fear and desperation finally overcoming that aspect of himself and losing that fear, to become someone who was a fighter for the resistance just as much as those who held the guns. Reporting on the front lines of Benghazi became his final act, and for that he should never, ever be forgotten. I'm so sorry Mo that I never got to know you better.

Mo's first report, which many of you may remember, begging for help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38EXALI60hg

Mo's last report, a fallen hero trying to spread the word to the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecu_iWLn-rg

Mo leaves behind a wife who is with child, she had http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/23/a_bright_voice_from_libyas_darkness">this to say about the No Fly Zone and R2P UN resolution:

We started this in a pure way, but he turned it bloody. Thousands of our men, women, and children have died. We just wanted our freedom, that's all we wanted, we didn't want power. Before, we could not do a single thing if it was not the way he wanted it. All we wanted was freedom. All we wanted was to be free. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up. We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Libya got liberated by anybody else. If NATO didn't start moving when they did, I assure you, I assure you, half of Benghazi if not more would have been killed. If they stop helping us, we are going to be all killed because he has no mercy anymore.

[joshcryer]

1. Currnent time in Libya 3:17am Thursday, March 24

[dionysus]

4. kick

[joshcryer]

2. Video showing snipers in Misrata and shelling (very unsettling):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2mw-JseOIs

[joshcryer]

5. Crap, hadn't seen the full video, lots of bodies at the end, very graphic.

[pinboy3niner]

3. K&R

Good to see you, Josh! :hi:

[joshcryer]

6. You too, pinboy3niner! :) Just catching up, lots of good news today.

I especially like how the Libyan government officials got lost trying to find the civilian house bombed. :rofl:

[CJvR]

7. Ajdabiya.

I suspect Ajdabiya will be the critical battle of the war. It would make sense for Gaddafi to have sent his best and most reliable troops to retake Bengazi. Without Bengazi the revolt would have been decapitated, but fortunately the UN intervention prevented that outcome. The troops in Ajdabiya seems to show far more staying power and determination than any goverment troops so far in the campaign. Smashing that spearhead, rather than just blunting it, could be decisive. There might not be much behind it considering that the Misurata and Zintan campaigns seems to be fought with more traditional lackluster preformance.

[pinboy3niner]

8. Deputy Foreign Minister denies government has cut off water and electricity to Misrata

AJE reports:

Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Kaim has denied allegations that the government has cut off water and electricity supplies to Misurata.

"We heard those rumours that the government has intentionally cut off supplies," said . "It's just a technical problem because of damage and looting."

Misurata residents say the city is under attack by government forces who have severed their basic supplies and effectively besieged the last major opposition holdout in western Libya.

Omar al-Mislati, planning manager for the state water company, said up to 70,000 out of 300,000 people in Misurata had no access to water due a technical problem and damage caused by some of the fighting.



2:37am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-24

[joshcryer]

9. This is total bullshit and they know it. Why would they give water and power to a city...

...they've been shelling for 5 days? Shocked AJE didn't put some snark to that. (They ocassionally have snark on their blog. :P )

[ClarkUSA]

10. Off to the Greatest with you! Glad to be the 5th rec.

Thanks for all the great updates and good news, josh.

:kick:

[joshcryer]

11. pinboy3niner gets the credit for the new news, I usually grab what he's posted that day.

:hi:

He rocks!

[ClarkUSA]

14. Humble, too.

Both of you rock. :hi:

[joshcryer]

12. Libya Conflict May Spur Sales of Battle-Proven Eurofighter Jet

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-03-23/libya-conflict-may-spur-sales-of-battle-proven-eurofighter-jet.html">Libya Conflict May Spur Sales of Battle-Proven Eurofighter Jet
March 24 (Bloomberg) -- Dogfights over Libya may spur sales of Eurofighter GmbH’s 65 million-pound ($106 million) Typhoon warplane as the enforcement of a no-fly zone against Muammar Qaddafi gives the jet a chance to prove its battle credentials.

The 1,500-mile-an-hour Typhoon, built by BAE Systems Plc, Finmeccanica SpA and European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co., flew its first mission with Britain’s Royal Air Force on March 21, and 10 of the planes are now stationed in Italy, Eurofighter spokesman Marco Valerio Bonelli said.

“It never hurts to have the ‘as used in combat’ stamp,” said Francis Tusa, London-based editor of the Defence Analysis newsletter. “It can only do you good.”

Eurofighter competes with jets including Dassault Aviation SA’s Rafale, also patrolling over Libya after flying missions in Afghanistan since 2002, and the yet-to-be-battle-tested Saab AB Gripen. That jet is made in Sweden, where the government said yesterday it might join the conflict.

Oh, the spoils of war. :puke:

To be expected of course, a new campaign allows 'em to show off capability.

[pinboy3niner]

18. "Dogfights over Libya"? Seriously?

Not only are they salivating over the prospect of aerial combat between coalition and Libyan airmen, they're hoping for another war to demonstrate their 'merchandise' ("It may take more than one conflict...").

But they're also seriously out of touch with realilty if they expect anybody to be willing to fly antiquated and poorly-maintained Libyan warplanes against the coalition's superior killing machines.

What a sickeningly revealing article! :puke:

[joshcryer]

22. It's like some kind of twilight zone but capitalism is like that.

:hi:

[joshcryer]

13. Libya: Don't panic, it has only been four days

http://www.slate.com/id/2289162/pagenum/all/">Libya: Don't panic, it has only been four days
On cable news, four days seems an eternity. Hence the vein-popping impatience for Qaddafi to crumble, the outrage that Obama isn't doing something more quickly (just what isn't quite clear), the heaving sighs over the coalition's failure (after hours of meetings) to work out the precise procedures of command and control.

Yet as several Pentagon officials cautioned at the outset of this crisis, these things are complicated; they require coordination, which takes time. This fact of course inspired some of the more enthusiastic hawks to urge Obama to take action unilaterally—which might have been speedier in the short run but a disaster in the end.

The hand-wringing from all sides is reminiscent of NATO's 1999 air war against Serbia, which was mounted to protect Kosovar citizens from the savagery of Slobodan Milosevic. President Bill Clinton's decision to intervene in that internal war came at a much later point in the conflict than Barack Obama's, after the dictator had inflicted far greater damage. Clinton sidestepped the U.N. Security Council knowing that Russia and China would veto a resolution, but he did go through the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, whose member-states saw the campaign—the first time they'd waged war together in NATO's half-century history—as a test of the alliance's continued relevance in the post-Cold War era.

Clinton was hammered from liberals and conservatives for taking this multilateral approach, which they derided as "war by committee." In his 2001 book Waging Modern War, Gen. Wesley Clark, who ran the air campaign as Supreme Allied Commander Europe, detailed the frustrations of fighting an alliance war—the endless squabbles over tactics, strategy, even which targets to strike.

[joshcryer]

15. Libya: A U.S. War by Any Other Name?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/03/23/libya_a_us_war_by_any_other_name_obama_gaddafi_qaddafi_109306.html">Libya: A U.S. War by Any Other Name?
Of the first 124 Tomahawk missiles fired on Libya, U.S. forces fired 122.

The U.N. Security Council and the Arab League sanctioned this war. This was no "coalition of the willing." The world body willed this war. Barack Obama deliberated with allies. "We did not lead this, we did not engage in unilateral actions in any way," Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Friday. America, the cowboy nation no more. But the fight still feels the same.

U.S. forces are currently directing this war. That will supposedly change, any day now. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates told reporters Sunday, "We will have a military role in the coalition, but we will not have the preeminent role." President Obama said Monday that allies will command the no-fly zone "in a matter of days and not a matter of weeks." Yet General Carter Ham, who directs the coalition campaign, told reporters the same day that "I would not put a date certain on" the transfer of command.

The United States is in charge of a war that was not its charge. A handoff needs two hands. England wanted NATO to take command. France noted objections. The Arab League opposes an entirely NATO command. Yet the Arab states are not in the fight. Tuesday, France proposed a steering committee that includes Arab states. So goes the bureaucracy of multilateral wars. Meanwhile, another day passes, and America leads another war. Command could soon shift. But the warriors might not shift with it.

[joshcryer]

16. Engineers turned revolutionaries talk about Libya (no translation yet)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skgJ5d5U_qk

They tend to add subtitles later.

[ClarkUSA]

20. Great. Libya will need them when they start rebuilding.

[joshcryer]

17. A man from Misurata says the town is suffering & running out of supplies

http://audioboo.fm/boos/311062-a-man-from-misurata-says-the-town-is-suffering-running-out-of-supplies

[bobbolink]

27. For anyone who can't connect, or is short on time... the digest version:

A man being interviewed says they have maybe 4, 5 or 6 days left of food and water.

"We are out of time for the hospitals...out of time."

The situation is dire.

[joshcryer]

30. Wish the UN would park a hospital ship off the shore.

But Misurata would have to be clean of pro-Gaddafi forces for that, and they appear to be resurging (even as I posted this topic, so it's kinda inaccurate).

[bobbolink]

33. I've been wondering if Cuba might be gearing up to do that.

That's the thing they do, and I know they have African students in their medical schools.

They go to hurricane-destroyed areas, but I don't know about war zones.

I've been worried about the supples for quite a while now, and wish there was someway to get stuff to them!

[pinboy3niner]

34. Actually, the USS Kearsarge has 6 operating theaters and capacity for 500 patients

Its current combat mission could be ended--but I think Gaddafi's forces hold the port there, which is some distance East of the town.

[joshcryer]

35. Ahh, you're right, approx 7 miles southeast.

[joshcryer]

19. Reuters quotes residents saying a loud explosion has been heard in Tripoli

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-24#update-19001">3:15am Reuters quotes residents saying a loud explosion has been heard in Tripoli.

"We heard another explosion just now. We see smoke rising. There are people on rooftops. It seems to be in a military area near the engineering college ," one resident said.

[joshcryer]

21. Twitter rumors flying about Gaddafi being killed, I do not trust them, very rumor-like.

[Amonester]

50. I *hope* a few of his mercs "see the light" and go ask him where his pot of gold is...

and just do him *justice* when he tells them to go f*ck themselves...

A dream.

[bobbolink]

53. Yeah, I have fantasies like that, too. But the Libyan people want to put him on trial,

and they are right.

[Amonester]

54. I dream of that also. n/t

[joshcryer]

23. Who's Crusading Now? (lol Putin)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/03/23/whos_crusading_now">Who's Crusading Now?
MOSCOW — Those scouring the tea leaves for hints about how Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin shares power with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev were richly rewarded on Monday with a rare bit of public sniping between the two.

As bombs rained down on Libya, Putin toured a plant east of Moscow that makes Russia's array of ballistic and intercontinental missiles, like the Bulava and the Iskander. A worker asked Putin what he thought of the situation in Libya, and the prime minister told him, as bluntly and saltily as ever.

"This resolution of the Security Council is clearly incomplete and flawed," he said, referring to U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973, which authorized the use of "all necessary measures" to stop Col. Muammar al-Qaddafi's attacks on civilians, short of an occupation of Libya. Russia, along with the other BRIC countries and Germany, had abstained from the vote. Putin didn't stop there, though. If you really read the resolution, said Putin, "it becomes clear that it allows anyone to take any action against a sovereign state." He went on: "And anyway, it reminds me of a medieval call for the Crusades, when someone would call on someone to go to some place and liberate something."

A few hours later, Medvedev chastised his partner. "It is unacceptable to use language that, in essence, can lead to a clash of civilizations, like the Crusades and such," he said, while bemoaning the loss of civilian life in the coalition airstrikes. "It is unacceptable."

[pinboy3niner]

24. Arwa Damon doing livefeed report right now on CNN (AC360)

Also NYT's David Kirkpatrick.

[pinboy3niner]

29. Damon said she sees no sign that opposition is being provided new weapons by anyone

This was in response to a question from Anderson Cooper that cited some reports that Egypt is sending weapons to the opposition across the border.

Damon said the opposition is even trying to salvage the bombed tanks and anti-aircraft weapons littering the the road from Benghazi where coalition airstrikes wiped out government forces' convoys. The tanks are being hauled away, she said, in the hope that they can be repaired!

This is how the opposition has armed themselves, she reported.

[joshcryer]

31. I saw that on an Al Jazeera or BBC report, they were taking parts from tanks, had video.

It was pretty crazy how dire their situation is.

[joshcryer]

25. Breaking up may be best for Libya (letters to editor)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/24/breaking-up-best-for-libya">Breaking up may be best for Libya
Why should Libya not break back into Cyrenaica, Tripolitania and a desert polity of some sort (Libya battleground, 23 March)? It is just another artificial concoction, put together by the colonial powers after the first world war, like Iraq and most of the Middle Eastern states. Ethnic, religious and tribal groups do not fuse into happy nation states: Yugoslavia, Pakistan, East Timor and Sudan didn't; how long will the UK last, or Spain, France? Empires don't hold together – the British, French etc, and latterly the USSR, broke down. India, China and Indonesia are full of separatist possibilities.

The era of nation states has been a bloody one and may well be coming to an end – to be replaced by autonomous entities based on racial, ethnic and other differences. Though Benghazi is not talking of independence, that may turn out to be a safer choice than returning to the grip of Gaddafi or his successor. There are dozens of states with populations of less than 5 million. The difficulty will be to establish a global regime which will ensure the security and stability of small countries and protect the civil rights of their citizens.

Don't think Gaddafi should be left hanging around to persecute his people.

[bobbolink]

49. I'm all for splitting up the US, while they are in the splitting business.

ONe half of the country goes teabagger, the other half goes Socialist.

In twenty years, when it is obvious that they socialists have a happier and heealthier country, and the baggers try to sneak in, we foil their attempts and put up a wall.

A BIIIG wall.

:rofl:

[joshcryer]

26. There's nothing moral about Nato's intervention in Libya

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/23/nothing-moral-nato-intervention-libya">There's nothing moral about Nato's intervention in Libya
It's as if it's a habit they can't kick. Once again US, British and other Nato forces are bombarding an Arab country with cruise missiles and bunker-busting bombs. Both David Cameron and Barack Obama insist this is nothing like Iraq. There will be no occupation. The attack is solely to protect civilians.

But eight years after they launched their shock-and-awe devastation of Baghdad and less than a decade since they invaded Afghanistan, the same western forces are in action against yet another Muslim state, incinerating soldiers and tanks on the ground and killing civilians in the process.

Supported by a string of other Nato states, almost all of which have taken part in the Iraq and Afghanistan occupations, the US, Britain and France are clinging to an Arab fig leaf, in the shape of a Qatari airforce that has yet to arrive, to give some regional credibility to their intervention in Libya.

As in Iraq and Afghanistan, they insist humanitarian motives are crucial. And as in both previous interventions, the media are baying for the blood of a pantomime villain leader, while regime change is quickly starting to displace the stated mission. Only a western solipsism that regards it as normal to be routinely invading other people's countries in the name of human rights protects Nato governments from serious challenge.

[joshcryer]

28. Yemen's leader says he will accept transition plan

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/23/yemen.protests/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn">Yemen's leader says he will accept transition plan
(CNN) -- Yemen's embattled president has accepted opposition demands for constitutional reforms and holding parliamentary elections by the end of the year, according to a statement issued by his office.

The statement said President Ali Abdullah Saleh was "committed to undertaking all possible initiatives to reach a settlement" with the opposition JMP bloc and "prevent any future bloodshed of the Yemeni people."

According to the statement, Saleh "has accepted the five points submitted by the JMP, including formation of a government of national unity and a national committee to draft a new constitution, drafting a new electoral law, and holding a constitutional referendum, parliamentary elections and a presidential vote by the end of the year.

"These accepted proposals have been submitted to the mediating party on the basis that this would end the current state of political turmoil facing the nation and paving the way for a smooth, peaceful and democratic transition," the statement from Saleh's office said.

[joshcryer]

32. Libya: Barack Obama's step from Nobel winner to warrior

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12843932">Libya: Barack Obama's step from Nobel winner to warrior
It probably wasn't what the Nobel committee had in mind when it awarded the Peace Prize to President Barack Obama two years ago.

Two months later he ramped up the war in Afghanistan, sending in 30,000 extra US troops.

Now he has ordered massive air strikes on Libya - with United Nations backing, but still with the United States in the lead.

Judged by his actions, this supposedly anti-war president looks almost as warlike as President George W Bush.

[joshcryer]

36. NBC's Richard Engel Almost Shot In Benghazi, Libya - video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u25s376imuI

[joshcryer]

37. LPC w/ #Misrata Doctor who says: Tank fired on building 'very close' (10-20m) to hospital - audio

LPC w/ #Misrata Doctor who says: Tank fired on building 'very close' (10-20m) to hospital, states hospital has power, a generator.

http://audioboo.fm/boos/310899-lpc-w-misrata-doctor-who-says-tank-fired-on-building-very-close-10-20m-to-hospital-states-hospital-has-power-a-generator-libya

[ramonskee]

38. Keep up the great work.

Hey Josh, thank you for doing this and keep up the great work. Question for you though as I believe you'll know the answer, what happened to Catherina?

[joshcryer]

39. Turned on the revolutionaries, thinks it's a big conspiracy.

[pinboy3niner]

40. Libyan airforce down but civilians still under attack

Source: Australian Broadcasting Corporation

Libyan airforce down but civilians still under attack


Ben Knight reported this story on Thursday, March 24, 2011 08:00:00


TONY EASTLEY: In Libya the international military force has extended its control over the country's airspace claiming that coalition fighter jets can now operate with impunity.

As if to emphasise the point coalition fighter planes have struck Libyan government forces on both sides of the country.

A naval blockade has also been put in place.

But the US military says there is no sign Gaddafi's ground forces are pulling back and the American chief of staff for the coalition operation says Gaddafi's troops have stepped up their attacks on civilians in Misurata in the west of the country and Ajdabiya in the west.

Middle East correspondent Ben Knight reports from the coastal city of Tobruk.

BEN KNIGHT: One of the main aims of the UN resolution was to stop Libyan government jets from bombing opposition towns.

Now the British air vice-marshal Greg Bagwell says that mission has succeeded and the no-fly zone over Libya is now in place.

GREG BAGWELL: Their air force no longer exists as a fighting force and his integrated air defence system and command and control networks are severely degraded to the point that we can operate over his airspace with impunity.

As we continue to enforce the no-fly zone we are watching over the innocent people of Libya and ensuring that we protect them from attack.

BEN KNIGHT: Now that the Libyan air force is grounded and with its air defences also out of action coalition fighters can now fly even lower than before.

And that means they're able to hit even smaller targets on the ground - exactly the sort of forces that are attacking rebel cities.

(Sound of protesters singing)

In Benghazi thousands protested in the streets demanding that the coalition do just that - demanding more air strikes to defend Misurata.

PROTESTER: This is the most important point for now. I'm trying to call my friends and my families in Misurata. They are completely surrounded.

I hope - I hope the United Nations to bomb the militias around Misurata.

They are completely damaged. It's miserable there in Misurata.

...


This is Ben Knight in Tobruk, Libya, reporting for AM.


More:
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3172162.htm

[joshcryer]

41. The difference with Libya

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/23/libya-bahrain-yemen-un-responsibility-protect">The difference with Libya
Why not bomb Bahrain? Why not declare a no-fly zone over Yemen? Such questions are aired increasingly on the internet – implying that in the light of all the popular uprisings in the Middle East and the authorities' attempts to suppress them, military intervention in Libya is a case of double standards.

It's true, of course, that Bahrain and Yemen are regarded as western allies while Muammar Gaddafi has been an international pariah for most of his 43 years in power and few will be sorry to see him go. But that is not the only reason for treating Libya differently.

In principle, the question of who governs each country is a matter for its own citizens to sort out, and as far as possible they should be left to do so. This is especially important in the Arab countries that have a long history of political manipulation from outside: Arabs alternate between complaining about western intervention and demanding that the west steps in to solve their problems for them.

The result has been a long-standing dependency culture which – thankfully – Tunisians and Egyptians began to shake off when they overthrew their presidents. They accomplished their revolutions without significant foreign help and, in the long run, they will be all the better for that.

[ClarkUSA]

42. Thanks for all the timely updates, joshcryer and pinboy3niner!

:yourock:

[ClarkUSA]

77. Wow. What a great read.

Thanks again for all your hard work, josh.

[joshcryer]

43. A steering group of countries backing military intervention in Libya will be open to all nations

http://twitter.com/#!/AlArabiya_Eng/status/50651166954098688">@AlArabiya_Eng
AlArabiya English
A steering group of countries backing military intervention in Libya will be open to all nations that want to join, could be set up in days
6 hours ago

[pinboy3niner]

44. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 5:01 AM THURSDAY, MARCH 24

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[joshcryer]

45. Robert Fisk: First it was Saddam. Then Gaddafi. (March 19)

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-first-it-was-saddam-then-gaddafi-now-theres-a-vacancy-for-the-wests-favourite-crackpot-tyrant-2246415.html">Robert Fisk: First it was Saddam. Then Gaddafi. Now there's a vacancy for the West's favourite crackpot tyrant
So we are going to take "all necessary measures" to protect the civilians of Libya, are we? Pity we didn't think of that 42 years ago. Or 41 years ago. Or... well, you know the rest. And let's not be fooled by what the UN resolution really means. Yet again, it's going to be regime-change. And just as in Iraq – to use one of Tom Friedman's only memorable phrases of the time – when the latest dictator goes, who knows what kind of bats will come flying out of the box?

And after Tunisia, after Egypt, it's got to be Libya, hasn't it? The Arabs of North Africa are demanding freedom, democracy, liberation from oppression. Yes, that's what they have in common. But what these nations also have in common is that it was us, the West, that nurtured their dictatorships decade after decade after decade. The French cuddled up to Ben Ali, the Americans stroked Mubarak, while the Italians groomed Gaddafi until our own glorious leader went to resurrect him from the political dead.

Could this be, I wonder, why we have not heard from Lord Blair of Isfahan recently? Surely he should be up there, clapping his hands with glee at another humanitarian intervention. Perhaps he is just resting between parts. Or maybe, like the dragons in Spenser's Faerie Queen, he is quietly vomiting forth Catholic tracts with all the enthusiasm of a Gaddafi in full flow.

This is outdated, I would like to see Fisk's opinion now after seeing that Gaddafi is mercilessly bombing Zintan and Misrata.

[pinboy3niner]

46. BREAKING: New explosions in Tripoli--Reuters nt

[pinboy3niner]

57. "It seems to be in a military area near the engineering college "

"We heard another explosion just now. We see smoke rising. There are people on rooftops. It seems to be in a military area near the engineering college ," one resident said.


3:15am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-24


There's a military base at Tajoura that apparently was hit in an earlier strike tonight (flames were reported rising from it).

[pinboy3niner]

47. Fears grow of humanitarian crisis in besieged Libyan city

Source: Washington Post

Fears grow of humanitarian crisis in besieged Libyan city


By Mary Beth Sheridan and Liz Sly, Wednesday, March 23, 9:29 PM



Aid organizations scrambled Wednesday to prepare for large-scale relief operations in Libya, as fears grew of a potential humanitarian crisis in a key city besieged by government forces.

International military forces on Wednesday stepped up attacks on government troops in Misurata, 131 miles east of Tripoli. The airstrikes seemed to bring a temporary respite from the fighting that had raged for six days between forces loyal to Moammar Gaddafi and rebels, as pro-government tanks retreated from the city center.

But after nightfall, the tanks returned and resumed their attacks, according to a doctor at the city’s main hospital. “They are shelling everywhere,” he said by telephone.

..


International aid organizations have been unable to deliver relief goods to Misurata and other contested towns. Asked whether the U.S. military might play a role in distributing emergency relief, one American official said, “All options are on the table.” He declined to comment further.

In recent days, the World Food Program and International Committee of the Red Cross have moved nearly 2,000 tons of food and other relief supplies into parts of eastern Libya that are under the control of rebel forces. The U.S. government has paid for some of that food and has provided nongovernmental groups in Libya with medical supplies sufficient to treat 40,000 people, officials said.


Sly reported from Tripoli. Staff writers Felicia Sonmez, Greg Jaffe and Karen DeYoung in Washington contributed to this report.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/fears-grow-of-libyan-humanitarian-crisis/2011/03/23/ABJA8PLB_story.html

[joshcryer]

48. Rebel Insider Concedes Weaknesses in Libya

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/world/africa/24minister.html?_r=2">Rebel Insider Concedes Weaknesses in Libya
BENGHAZI, Libya — After the uprising, the rebels stumbled as they tried to organize. They did a poor job of defining themselves when Libyans and the outside world tried to figure out what they stood for. And now, as they try to defeat Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s armed forces and militias, they will have to rely on allied airstrikes and young men with guns because the army that rebel military leaders bragged about consists of only about 1,000 trained men.

Those frank admissions came from Ali Tarhouni, who was appointed to the cabinet of the rebels’ shadow government on Wednesday as finance minister. Mr. Tarhouni, who teaches economics at the University of Washington, returned to Libya one month ago after more than 35 years in exile to advise the opposition on economic matters. The rebels are proclaiming his American credentials — he has a doctorate from Michigan State University — as they seek foreign recognition of their cause.

“He understands the Western mentality,” said Iman Bugaighis, a spokeswoman for the fledgling opposition government.

But more important, Mr. Tarhouni, 60, who briefed journalists on Wednesday night, appeared to be one of the few rebel officials willing to speak plainly about the movement’s shortcomings and challenges, after weeks of rosy predictions and distortions by some of his colleagues, especially regarding the abilities of the rebel fighters.

[pinboy3niner]

51. Libya Crisis Thrusts U.S. Africa Command Into Leadership Role

Source: New York Times

Libya Crisis Thrusts U.S. Africa Command Into Leadership Role


By ERIC SCHMITT
Published: March 22, 2011



WASHINGTON — When the United States Africa Command was created four years ago, it was the military’s first “smart power” command. It has no assigned troops and no headquarters in Africa itself, and one of its two top deputies is a seasoned American diplomat.

Indeed, the command, known as Africom, is intended largely to train and assist the armed forces of 53 African nations and to work with the State Department and other American agencies to strengthen social, political and economic programs in the region, including improving H.I.V. awareness in African militaries and removing land mines.

Now the young, untested command and its new boss, Gen. Carter F. Ham, find themselves at their headquarters in Stuttgart, Germany, setting aside public diplomacy talks and other civilian-military duties to lead the initial phase of a complex, multinational shooting war with Libya.

“Are they up to the task?” said Kenneth J. Menkhaus, an Africa specialist at Davidson College in North Carolina. “So far, I’d say yes. Down the road, though, if it gets messier, it’ll test the capacity of Africom. This is certainly a baptism by fire.”


MORE:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/23/world/africa/23command.html

[pinboy3niner]

52. Congress could vote on Libya war next week

Congress could vote on Libya war next week


Posted By Josh Rogin
Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 4:25 PM


Congress may hold a vote on President Barack Obama's decision to attack Libya when lawmakers return from recess next week, according to Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-IL).

Durbin, along with Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI) and Jack Reed (D-RI) held a conference call with reporters on Wednesday afternoon as part of the White House's damage control effort following the widespread and bipartisan criticism over of the lack of congressional consultation before the intervention in Libya, and the lack of clarity over the mission's goals.

"None of us can say with any certainty what will happen when we return, but under the War Powers Act, any senator can ask under privilege of the Senate to call this question, as to whether or not we will support these actions taken by the president," Durbin said. "I think it's consistent with our constitutional responsibility to take up that question," through a vote.

Asked by The Cable how Congress plans to pay for the Libya intervention, the costs of which are approaching $1 billion, Durbin said, "I haven't heard anything on that score yet."


http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/23/congress_could_vote_on_libya_war_next_week

[MedleyMisty]

55. I've seen several tweets from the Libyans

saying that they're willing to pay for it when they're free.

Breaks my heart to see Americans turning their backs on these people.

Oooh, I have ideas to help pay for it! Tax rich people and force corporations to pay their taxes! End the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan!

Seriously - this whole idea of "ZOMG how do we pay for it?!" is exactly like that joke about the CEO and the union worker and the non-union worker and the cookies. With the same result - Americans hating on Libyans when they should be showing solidarity in a fight against the CEO.

It's not the Libyans taking your money, guys.

[bobbolink]

56. NO, we poor folk get the rich folks tax money! ^_^

Can you imagine how many really diverse things we could do if we had that 71% tax rate on the rich that used to exist????

:cry:

:pals:

[pinboy3niner]

58. It's possible that some Arab League members have made some guarantees about funding

And it would have been natural for the U.S. and the EU members to press them for that. Not something they'd want to trumpet, but it's a possibility.

[joshcryer]

59. The Libya campaign: Who will lead?

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/editors-blog/2011/0323/The-Libya-campaign-Who-will-lead">The Libya campaign: Who will lead?
To start with, Germany and Italy are reluctant to assert themselves in a region that still harbors memories of World War II occupation. France has been out front in the early days of the attack on Muammar Qaddafi's military. Britain, too, has played a part. Would London and Paris continue the campaign together? Given old rivalries, would one let the other take the lead?

Then there's the Arab League. After initially supporting the no-fly zone, Arab leaders are expressing misgivings about civilian casualties. They also appear to be worried that attacking an Arab strongman could come back to haunt them, since many are strongmen themselves. Egypt has a powerful enough military to make a difference in next-door Libya. But at a time of political change, Egypt's interim leaders would not want to be accused of aggression against a neighbor.

The Libyan rebels are weak. Qaddafi's forces are still strong enough to hold territory. Bottom line: While the US may not want to lead, it is difficult to see how the conflict ends without decisive action and a strong US role.

[tabatha]

60. Libya rebels coordinating with West on air assault

Leaders of the opposition national council, in Benghazi and in Europe, are helping allied commanders identify targets for strikes. Allied officials walk a fine line as the U.N. mandate bars them from actively helping the rebels in their goal to oust Moammar Kadafi.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-fg-libya-rebels-20110324,0,3195209.story

Reporting from Benghazi, Libya, and Washington—
Leaders of the opposition national council in rebel-controlled eastern Libya say they are making regular, secure contacts with allied military representatives in Europe to help commanders identify targets for the U.S.-led air assault.

The contacts, conducted through the council's civilian representatives in France and elsewhere in Europe, are made by secure satellite telephone connections, according to spokesmen for the rebel leadership in its eastern base of Benghazi.

"There is communication between the Provisional National Council and U.N. assembled forces, and we work on letting them know what areas need to be bombarded," spokesman Ahmed Khalifa said in an interview Wednesday.

[pinboy3niner]

61. The latest casualty figures in Misurata are 14 dead and 23 injured

Accordiing to AJE:

The latest casualty figures in Misurata, according to the opposition, are 14 dead and 23 injured, one of our team members on the ground says.


5:28am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-24

[tabatha]

62. Shady Dealings Helped Qaddafi Amass Fortune

WASHINGTON — In 2009, top aides to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi called together 15 executives from global energy companies operating in Libya’s oil fields and issued an extraordinary demand: Shell out the money for his country’s $1.5 billion bill for its role in the downing of Pan Am Flight 103 and other terrorist attacks.

If the companies did not comply, the Libyan officials warned, there would be “serious consequences” for their oil leases, according to a State Department summary of the meeting.

Many of those businesses balked, saying that covering Libya’s legal settlement with victims’ families for acts of terrorism was unthinkable. But some companies, including several based in the United States, appeared willing to give in to Libya’s coercion and make what amounted to payoffs to keep doing business, according to industry executives, American officials and State Department documents.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/world/africa/24qaddafi.html?_r=2

[tabatha]

63. Suppliant cry for help for drugs from embattled Misurata Libyan

Tönisvorst 22 March 2011. A medeor relief shipment of drugs and dressing materials arrived yesterday in the only hospital in Misurata. medeor the flight organized for the relief shipment to Malta, from there it went with the logistical support of the Maltese government for security overnight and by U.S. military accompanied by ship to Libya.

"The joy over the relief supplies so far only in the hospital was huge," said Dr. Nagi Idris. The Libyans working and teaching as a doctor in Bradford in England. He founded the network "Global Relief for Libya" with the help of the Libyan journalists Nabbous Mohammed, who was killed on Saturday in an attack on Gaddafi's troops at Benghazi with a targeted head shot. It unites Libyan doctors around the world have organized to help people.

http://medeor.org/Presse/Toenisvorst-22-Maerz-2011.html

[joshcryer]

64. Airstrikes fail to deter Gaddafi forces - video

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/20113242425700917.html">Airstrikes fail to deter Gaddafi forces
Western warplanes have hit Libya for a fifth night, but have so far failed to stop Muammar Gaddafi's tanks from shelling opposition-held towns.

A loud explosion was heard in Tripoli, the capital, early on Thursday, and smoke could be seen rising from an area where a military base is situated.

"We heard another explosion just now. We see smoke rising. There are people on rooftops. It seems to be in a military area near the engineering college ," one resident told Reuters news agency.

Eight explosions were also heard in the east of the capital late on Wednesday.

[Waiting For Everyman]

65. Electricity back on in Misrata, tanks have retreated.

LibyanDictator The Dictator by HMS_Cumberland
CONFIRMED: Electricity now back in the whole of #Misrata. Tanks have retreated. #Libya #Feb17
8 hours ago

[joshcryer]

66. Benghazi family victims of Libya conflict

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCveKSBenSI

[joshcryer]

67. Misrata is facing a "humanitarian crisis" after the port was reportedly seized by pro-Gaddafi troops

1047: Residents of Misrata have told Reuters the city is facing a "humanitarian crisis" after the port was reportedly seized by pro-Gaddafi troops. "There are more than 6,000 Egyptian workers, some with their families, plus some African workers, who are now in the port. They went there waiting for a ship to move them but nobody is coming," said one man.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

[joshcryer]

68. They haven't attacked but if they do, the thousands of workers will be the first victims.

1048: The witness said the regime had sent two warships and several boats to the port. "They have besieged us from from the sea," he said. "They haven't attacked but if they do, the thousands of workers will be the first victims."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

[joshcryer]

69. 'Without this coalition we would not be alive.'

1020: Ms McLeod said when she visited Tobruk, there was clear appreciation for the international action. "Even just sitting in restaurants and cafes, people would come up and thank us. And, to a person, everyone said 'Without this coalition we would not be alive.' There is a sense, in Tobruk at least, in the east, that the coalition is the only reason why they are keeping Gaddafi's forces at bay."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418

[joshcryer]

70. Gaddafi's tanks inside Misrata have not been hit by Western air strikes, a resident told Reuters by

Gaddafi's tanks inside Misrata have not been hit by Western air strikes, a resident told Reuters by telephone.
by Reuters_VipulTripathi at 4:46 AM

http://live.reuters.com/Event/Middle_East_Protests

[joshcryer]

71. Al Jazeera team held in Libya

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/03/201132082949535527.html">Al Jazeera team held in Libya
Security forces loyal to longtime Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi have arrested four Al Jazeera Arabic journalists who have been working in western Libya for several days, the network said early on Sunday.

The four journalists are:
Ahmed Vall Ould Addin, correspondent
Kamel Atalua, cameraman
Ammar al-Hamdan, cameraman
Lotfi al-Messaoudi, correspondent

The network holds the Libyan authorities responsible for their safety, security and well-being, and "regional parties" are helping to secure their release, Al Jazeera said in a statement.

"We're doing everything possible to secure the release of our colleagues from the Gaddafi authorities," Al Jazeera director general Wadah Khanfar wrote on Twitter. "We want them back immediately."

[joshcryer]

72. Arabic, phlegm and the battle of Tarf al-Ghar

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/24/arabic-middle-east-placenames-language">Arabic, phlegm and the battle of Tarf al-Ghar
Az Zawiyah. Sana'a. Benghazi. Over the last few months, western commentators have had to get to grips with an array of confusing new words. We can assume that pronunciation units have been working through the night to help nervous anchors avoid sounding like they're recovering from dental anaesthetic. Their efforts have met with varying levels of success.

Why all the trouble? Well, Arabic presents unique difficulties for the Indo-European tongue. How to get your mouth around Sfax? Do you say Manama like "Banana" or "Panama"? Does the rain in Bahrain fall mainly on the last syllable? There are consonants, vowels and patterns of stress we just don't have north of the Mediterranean, and the difficulty in mastering them is understandable. The combination "hr", without a helpful vowel in the middle, doesn't exist in English. So a dividing line has emerged between those who carry on with plain old Baa-rain, and the ones who've learnt that Arabs slide effortlessly from h to r with no gap.

But now the crucial question. Is it pretentious to attempt an authentic-sounding Arabic place name? An element of competitiveness has seeped into discussions of events in the Middle East. Every day we read and hear more about historic developments in places that were unfamiliar to most of us until recently. Those who are really in the know wouldn't trip over Tahrir, would they? And a lot of people want to sound like they're in the know. So "correct" pronunciation becomes a totem, a way of proving your expertise. The greater the level of phlegm, so the thinking goes, the more you sound like you have some idea of what you're talking about.

[joshcryer]

73. France plays hawk, Germany demurs. Libya has exposed Europe's fault lines

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/24/france-hawk-germany-demurs-libya-europe">France plays hawk, Germany demurs. Libya has exposed Europe's fault lines
So Europeans are from Mars and Americans are from Venus. Those "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" – the French – have led the military charge into Libya. The hamburger-munching crusader eagles have dithered in the rear.

Except that such crude stereotypes are as misleading today as they were at the time of the Iraq war. Now as then, Americans are divided – and Europeans even more so. France and Britain have led the campaign for a no-fly zone and for "all necessary measures" to protect civilians in Libya. Germany has demonstratively dissociated itself from them. The Obama administration initially showed almost German levels of reluctance to get involved with any form of military intervention, but shifted its position in response to Gaddafi's brutal campaign to restore his own power, the remarkable pro-intervention stance of the Arab League, and pressures from many Americans. Among the American voices pressing for action was Robert Kagan, the neocon who popularised the original bon mot: "Americans are from Mars, Europeans are from Venus."

So far as France is concerned, we need have no illusions about the personal motives of Nicolas Sarkozy. He surely hopes that cutting a dash on the international scene will boost his ratings and give him a better chance of being re-elected next year. Decisive action in defence of Arab human rights is supposed to cover up his administration's appalling record in cosying up to Arab leaders who trampled on those rights, including Hosni Mubarak, until recently Sarkozy's co-chair of the Union for the Mediterranean, Tunisia's Zine El Abidine ben-Ali and, yes, Muammar Gaddafi.

[joshcryer]

74. Libya TV newsreader brandishes gun and pledges loyalty to Gaddafi - video

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/mar/23/libya-tv-newsreader-gun-gaddafi-video

:rofl:

He doesn't buy his own spew.

[joshcryer]

75. The difference with Libya

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/23/libya-bahrain-yemen-un-responsibility-protect">The difference with Libya
Why not bomb Bahrain? Why not declare a no-fly zone over Yemen? Such questions are aired increasingly on the internet – implying that in the light of all the popular uprisings in the Middle East and the authorities' attempts to suppress them, military intervention in Libya is a case of double standards.

It's true, of course, that Bahrain and Yemen are regarded as western allies while Muammar Gaddafi has been an international pariah for most of his 43 years in power and few will be sorry to see him go. But that is not the only reason for treating Libya differently.

In principle, the question of who governs each country is a matter for its own citizens to sort out, and as far as possible they should be left to do so. This is especially important in the Arab countries that have a long history of political manipulation from outside: Arabs alternate between complaining about western intervention and demanding that the west steps in to solve their problems for them.

The result has been a long-standing dependency culture which – thankfully – Tunisians and Egyptians began to shake off when they overthrew their presidents. They accomplished their revolutions without significant foreign help and, in the long run, they will be all the better for that.

[joshcryer]

76. Day 35 part 2 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x730234