Lawrence is naming statistics that prove that Catholics are the largest progressive...

[onehandle]

...Christian group in America.

Which I've known all of my life.

He's talking about how right-wingers are pushing the lie that American Catholics are right-wing like they are.

[Rage for Order]

1. All the proof is right here:

http://crs.org/how/

[LAGC]

32. How much of that "charity" is "no strings attached?"

Sure seems nice and "compassionate" until you realize all the baggage that comes with it.

[WolverineDG]

37. in my experience, none

the Sisters of Mercy run the local women's shelter, as well as a low-income health clinic. While they don't hide the fact that they are Catholic, no one is forced to go to mass or pray or anything else to get help.

Of course, I know that's not the answer you're looking for.

dg

[Rage for Order]

42. Huh? I'm confused by your response...

The poster you responded to asked how much of the charity was "no strings attached", to which you responded "...none....While they don't hide the fact that they are Catholic, no one is forced to go to mass or pray or anything else to get help."

Did you mean that none of their assistance is no strings attached, or that to your knowledge there are no strings attached?

:shrug:

[WolverineDG]

51. In my experience, there are no strings attached

is that clear enough now?

dg

[Rage for Order]

54. No, it isn't. Could you type slower next time?

Maybe then I'll be able to understand

:eyes:

[WolverineDG]

66. O

K

[Rage for Order]

41. All you have to do is clink the link and scroll to the bottom of the page

"Catholic Relief Services is the official international humanitarian agency of the Catholic community in the United States. We alleviate suffering and provide assistance to people in need in more than 100 countries, without regard to race, religion or nationality."

[LAGC]

45. I guess what frustrates me is...

If the government truly took care of all the poor and needy, we wouldn't NEED religious charities to fill the void at all!

Conservatives prefer religious charities because it makes the Church look good and doesn't cost them a little bit more in taxes.

[bluestate10]

44. No religious charity comes with no strings attached. And you know what?

I don't give a shit that there are strings as long as the money is used to make life better for people that are struggling. Two of my favorite charities are religious charities, even as I am agnostic to the core. Both charities, in their acts, follow my cree-do of fighting hunger and hopelessness first. Religious charities that spend precious money on social hot button issues don't get a cent from me.

[hlthe2b]

2. Given the demographic changes...

Latino Catholics will overwhelm protestant denominations of all types as well as all other religions, just as Hispanics will push non-Hispanic Caucasians into minority status. This is just unfathomable to RWers so they hold on to that denial that these Catholics will back them because of abortion. Denial is a powerful emotion, but it is simply and demonstrably NOT true.

[glinda]

4. Sure it is not "lies and propaganda" instead of "denial"?

[hlthe2b]

5. Oh, I'm sure there is plenty of that as well...

[somone]

3. That is very true

[Historic NY]

6. they just watch too much Wm. Donahue from his one man band.

[onehandle]

18. As Lawrence (and others) have mentioned, it's the media that made him a 'spokesman' for Catholics.

In reality, 90% or more of Catholics have never even heard of that kook.

[Historic NY]

25. We got a kook who writes 3-4 times a week in the paper....

about all sorts of topics, from abortion to communion and elected Catholic public officials should be following the Vatican. Heck he even critiques the Pope.

[WildEyedLiberal]

7. Catholicism has always placed a strong emphasis on social justice

For all its myriad other failings, the Catholic Church, for the most part, walks the walk when it comes to the beatitudes. Yes, the USCCB has been reactionary and overtly political recently, but the rank and file for the most part have none of it. That's why when the USCCB opposed the health care law on the flimsiest of reasons (it might fund abortion, which is the only moral issue they preach about), the nuns came out in favor of it, because the nuns, far more than the bishops, represent the people on the ground in the faith, out there ministering to the poor.

The Catholic Church needs to make a LOT of progress on a lot of issues, but it at least knows that Christ cared for the poor, and it's hard to care about the poor and be a teabagger.

[wickerwoman]

10. +1

All those Irish and Italian Catholic cops, teachers, miners, teamsters, navies... they all knew where their bread was buttered. Lots of Catholic priests used to be extremely active in the labor movement.

[Luminous Animal]

16. Abortion is the only moral issue they preach about? Are we forgetting GLBT civil rights?

Are we forgetting birth control? The Catholic Church is for social justice so much as it lines its own pockets. They are a huge recipient of government funds.

[WildEyedLiberal]

24. I'd advise you to see what local churches are actually doing

You might be surprised to see that many actual Catholics in local parishes - both laypeople and priests - focus far more on social justice missions than they do on the stupid culture wars crap that the bishops and self-procraimed RW Catholic talking heads yammer on about endlessly. That's why, despite what the RW wants you to think (that all Catholics care about is abortion and denying gay rights), this survey shows that perception to be absolutely false.

Of course the church needs to come into the 21st century on the topic of gay rights and women's rights, but that does not diminish the fact that there remains a strong social justice tradition, and that the Catholic Church, for all its other failings, does have a historical commitment to helping the poor.

[bobbolink]

30. In my experience, you are totally correct.

But, then, part of that may be that I have been around a lot of really radical Catholics. :)

I have protested against Martin Marietta with the Sisters of Loretto (who were spit on, by the way), and I have protested at Rocky Flats with the same group of nuns and many lay Catholics.

I have chased the White Train with many Catholics, a movement which was begun by a lone Catholic priest in Denver.

It was Father Woody who brought the homelessness issue to light in Denver.

I could go on and on.......

Any group as large as the Catholics is going to be diverse.

[WildEyedLiberal]

34. Radical Catholics are as truly socialist as any self-congraluatory progressive on this website

Unfortunately, the Vatican and the bishops have declared war on them, and that's why in the media you only hear about the abortion and anti-gay crap. But MANY of the real "boots on the ground" Catholics embrace socialist, anti-poverty ideals. The bishops splutter and try to impose their iron will on the laypeople and local priests and nuns, but most regular Catholics just roll their eyes and go about their business. We know the bishops are out of touch old men who got to their position by being willing to kiss ass.

You have my utmost respect for being down on the front lines :)

[bobbolink]

38. Yes, and they don't hesitate to claim that socialist background, either. ^_^

The ones I know are very grounded in the basic tenets of their faith... which, if you really look at the words of Christ, are quite socialistic. Like Martin Luther King, Jr, they lie out of that faith and that grounding. I respect them for that.

I personally know Nuns and Priests who speak and act very strongly for ALL people, and that includes supporting GLBT, and women who have abortions. In fact, one nun who I became friends with took her own money to print letters (both in English and Spanish) to women who have had abortions, saying that God knows their heart, and knows their circumstances and knows the stress of the decision they made, and loves them. It was a beautifully written letter, and she did so because she knows so many of the women who are made to feel very bad about themselves.

Any group of people has those who cause pain to others... we see that right here at DU, don't we? Yet, it is important to also remember and celebrate those who work to make the lives of others more comfortable, and to try to heal some of the pain they experience.

In fact, it was the same nun, Sister Mary Ann, (so many are Mary something ^_^) who I was protesting with against Martin Marietta in downtown Denver, when one of the Martin Marietta workers leaned over the parking tower wall 3 stories up and spit on her. She and another nun came to me, smiling and said, "What does this mean?" as they held up their middle fingers. ^_^ We all had a laugh at that, but it was sad that the best way these highly educated workers from MM could respond to peaceful nuns was by giving them the finger, yelling "Go to hell", and spitting on them.

I have also said for years that from what I have seen, these nuns are the only place left where I see real feminism. They LIVE it. Their writings on feminism are also some of the most radical.

Thank you for the kind words. All of these Catholic protesters know they have large FBI files. The priest who began what became Ground Zero, protesting the White Train as it came through downtown DENVER!, not only began what became a national organization protesting these nuclear , but spoke out for GBLT, oppressed and poor people everywhere, and many other causes. I personally found him to be a bit of a male pig ^_^, but that can be said for a lot of leaders in any "progressive" movement, sadly.

Because it was a long time ago, and many have not even heard of the White Train, I have a picture and a bit of history:

Because of the actions of that one priest, the White Train no longer came through Denver. By the time we were chasing it for Ground Zero, it was only going as close as Nebraska, and they had painted the turret cars and the cars containing tanks very weird colors to make it look like other trains, but the effort failed. It just looked eerie... and weird.

Ground Zero was an organization founded by Sojourners (an Evangelical group) to track the White Train as it came out of the Pan tex plant in Texas. There were protesters in Texas who watched for a train leaving, passed the word to Ground Zero, which activated protesters all along the way who stood at junctions and reported to Ground Zero which track it had taken, to notify those further along the line. We joined the people from the small town in Nebraska the train went through, as they were also protesting. Having grown up in Los Alamos, it was very emotional for me. Seeing the turret cars, and seeing the cars where the whole side comes down to form a ramp for the tank to be driven out.... it was all surreal.

After the train took the track at the fork, one of our group went into a phone booth to call in the information. After his call, we all crowded into the phone booth and one of the group took our picture. That actually would be considered conspiracy, so this was a brave group of people. There were men there who were clearly FBI who took our pictures.

Thank you for letting me reminisce. I decided to look up the White Train, and here is a brief description... no photo, sadly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Train

I couldn't find anything about the Sojourners Ground Zero movement, which was centered in the NW. I wish I still had the copies of the SOJO magazine that had articles on it! "Ground Zero" has now come to only mean 911.

edited to say... I got so involved with my memories that I forgot the main reason I was writing this..... After all these experiences, after all the protesting where I was with a SMALL group, not a large mainstream protest like what people are used to now, because I am in favor of the UN effort to back the Libyan people, I am now called a "war monger" on DU. I've had a lot of personal attacks and name-calling because of this decision which was a very painful one for me.

That is the sad level of "peace" to which we have sunk. :cry:

[WildEyedLiberal]

40. Thanks so much for your memories and the history - fascinating

And don't let the nasty DU namecallers get you down. There are some here who, just like those at FR, put ideology and self-righteousness above kindness and concern for human suffering. I learned several years ago not to expect much better out of many so-called progressives, although it continues to disappoint me, since compassion, tolerance, and critical thinking are supposed to be the cornerstones of progressive thought.

[burrowowl]

52. Yes it has!

And John XXIII social justice. We need another John XXII!

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. Not around here.

They played up the abortion issue like crazy & promoted bush. Never mind that bush was an imbecile. I'll have nothing to do with that bunch anymore, if anything it's gotten worse.

[eridani]

9. Always been true--at least in 20th century and beyond. It's just that

--the rightwing whackjobs get all the press.

[markpkessinger]

57. Catholics, as opposed to the Roman Catholic Church

Speaking as a liberal Episcopalian who has more than a passing familiarity with the RCC both from the institutional/clerical perspective as well as from the lay perspective, I have to say that the Roman Catholic Church has a very strong history of progressive activism, particularly with regard to the poor and working classes. But you do have to recognize a distinction when speaking of the Roman Catholic Church, as an institution, and Roman Catholics as individual persons. As an institution, since the election of Pope John Paul II, arch-conservatives have held the ascendancy in terms of institutional leadership. The current pope, when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger, serving under Pope John Paul II as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (an agency within the Church that once was known by the name, "Inquisition"), earned the reputation of "God's Rottweiler" for his fierce persecution and silencing of clergy, faculty and religious who dared to teach anything that departed from Rome's antiquarian interpretations of dogma. Wonderful Catholic thinkers such as Hans Küng, Matthew Fox, Leonardo Boff & Charles Curran were effectively silenced in the name of Ratzinger's view of "orthodoxy."

But local priests, monks and nuns have for many decades mentored their parishioners in a less rigid approach to the dictates of Rome, and most Catholics, in my experience, simply ignore a lot of what they don't like.

[Ex Lurker]

11. Catholics tend to be really progressive or really reactionary

at least the ones I've known.

[LynneSin]

12. I live in a big catholic neighborhood here in Delaware and they are all progressives....

and for over 20 years they had Joe Biden as a part of their yearly Italian Festival Parade. He did that parade up thru 2009, after that it was too much of a security risk but Carper, Castle & Kaufmann all attended. I'm sure Carney and Coons will be there this year.

[Luminous Animal]

15. So, they recognize the human rights of the GLBT community now? The embrace Planned Parenthood?

Women priests are welcome?

[bobbolink]

31. I know many Catholics who have "recognized" GLBT rights for a lot of years.

I have mentioned that for a long time on DU, and I usually get jeered.

So, jeer away.

I get that you have been hurt by prejudice. I get that very clearly, I know it firsthand, also.

But the fact is there are a lot of Christians, and that includes Catholics who suppport your cause. I know them personally.

You have every right to your anger, as do I, but when you make broad claims that aren't factual, some of us are going to rebut those claims.

[LAGC]

35. Our problem isn't with lay Catholics, its with the leadership.

And why anyone would want to donate money to forward ultra-conservative policies set by the leaders of the church is beyond me.

[musette_sf]

50. You are correct, bobbolink,

example: Most Holy Redeemer parish in the Castro in SF:

http://www.mhr.org/

From the website's message from Fr Steve Meriwether:

You will find the good people of our parish old, young, married, gay, lesbian, transgender, affluent, homeless, blue-collar, converts, cradle Catholics, radical, traditional, questioning, fervent. What you're least likely to find here is complacency or indifference. We seem to be a church with no accidental parishioners: everyone singing in our pews or making sandwiches for the poor in our hall is committed to a vision of a better world and a better Church to serve it.

[Aerows]

56. I'm a lesbian

and it upsets me that the Catholic Church doesn't recognize my gay brothers and sisters, nor my sisters as priests.

I attended Catholic school, though, and feel that I got the benefit of an open minded education. I am not excusing the Catholic Church, but I laud them when they do well, and I feel that is what you are doing, also.

I guess I'm saying that I agree with you, and we don't have to agree on every issue to work on the issues we believe in together.

I DO think the Church works at cross purposes to the GLBT community at times, but I also know that there are plenty of people within the Church that work for the community.

[JDPriestly]

13. That is almost correct.

The reason that right wingers make so much over the sex issues like abortion and gay rights is to try to woo Catholic voters.

The Catholic, Methodist, Unitarian and a couple of other smaller churches (certainly the Salvation Army and maybe the Adventists and Church of Christ) are traditionally very active in serving the poor and assisting in social causes. The Episcopalians have become pretty active too. Those are not the only socially active churches. But the Catholics, Methodists and Unitarians, in my experience are all leaders in this respect. Methodists and Unitarians are more liberal on sexual issues than are Catholics.

[etherealtruth]

17. Though small I would add the UCC to your list

[markpkessinger]

53. Agreed, and I would also add...

Lutherans (of the ELCA variety -- NOT Missouri Synod Lutherans!)

[Luminous Animal]

14. Homophobic ,ainti-birth control, anti-pro choice, no women in the clergy. Yep, progressive...

[olegramps]

19. There are two churches. The church of the bishops and the church of the laity.

No one can become a bishop in the Catholic Church today unless they totally accept the teachings of the church without any reservation. During Vatican II many bishops were very outspoken in regard to the questioning the Church's teachings on a number of issues including celibacy, birth control and the church's teachings regarding sex. According to numerous surveys the laity reject many of the teaching such as birth control, pre-marital sex and even a significant number in regard to the church's teachings on abortion especially in the cases of rape, incest and threat to the mother's wellbeing.

[GoCubsGo]

22. Exactly right.

It's why Father Pfleger will never become a bishop: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pfleger

I went to the same college as Michael Pfleger. The Jesuits taught Liberation Theology, among other progressive doctrines. And, they explained the roots of the Church's idiocy regarding celibacy, birth control, abortion, and sex, in general, without defending it. The school, and every parish I ever belonged to were very big on dealing with poverty and anti-war issues, as well. My mom was friends with nuns who had been arrested for burning draft cards back in the 1960s. And, although the nuns at my grammar school were anti-abortion, they strongly supported other feminist issues, such as the Equal Rights Amendment.

I left the Catholic Church years ago, when I saw the Man Behind the Curtain. I refuse to donate to charities that are affiliated with religion--with a few exceptions. I will not hesitate to give to such organizations as the St. Vincent DePaul Society.

[Johonny]

21. I agree

The top of the church is laying the grounds to be off putting to those on the bottom. You find very progressive perishes in the Church, but in general the Church higher structure is a very big turn off.

[applegrove]

65. 60 Minutes did a piece on the archbishop of New York and what an asset he was. When asked

how he felt about all those issue you listed above he said they were all settled matters. What a disappointment.

[ReggieVeggie]

20. uh, ya ever heard of Bill Donahue?

there are some right-wing catholics as there are left-leaning and/or progressive Baptists

[CBGLuthier]

23. Oh MY God. Your finding exactly ONE example refutes the entire OP

Brilliant man, brilliant.

[WildEyedLiberal]

26. Not to mention Donahue's "organization" consists almost exclusively of him

I mean, there are something like 60 million Catholics in the US, so of course some of them are going to be wingnuts, but I can fairly safely say that Donahue doesn't speak for anyone but himself and maybe a tiny gathering of dittoheads.

[ReggieVeggie]

43. You don't honestly think Bill Donahue is the only right-wing catholic, do you?

[sandyo--ERA]

27. Catholics are teh largest progressive Christian group in America? Says WHO?

WHAAAAT? Catholics are a progressive Christian group?

And the moon is made of green cheese.

[truebrit71]

28. Hmm, that's not my experience..

..

[Celeborn Skywalker]

46. It's mine.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that I would guess 80% of Catholics here are Democrats. I wouldn't call them outright liberals but their beliefs are certainly a little left of center.

[Nickigrace]

29. Conservative Catholics

I live in a very Catholic, midwestern city (St. Louis). I have quite a few Catholic friends who vote on the pro-life issue alone and sound more like fundies. I went to a college that had a lot of very progressive nuns (Sisters of Loretto). It seems to run about 50/50 from my limited experience. I'll bet it's a lot different on the East Coast and the Upper Midwest though.

[bigwillq]

47. Hello.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[musette_sf]

49. Sorry, not different on the East Coast,

did you see the 60 Minutes feature this past Sunday on that nasty creep Dolan (Archbishop of NY)? Despite that fake "jolly" presence, he's as misogynistic and fundamentalist as they come.

[ReggieVeggie]

60. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. I know that many Catholics are Progressive, but that is not the

same as Catholics being a Progressive group. Not the same at all. The group is not a progressive group, it is a group that contains many progressives and many nonprogressives organized around non political common ground. The 'group' indentity is the common one, defined by the Pope and such. That is just a fact. The 'group' dogma is opposed to equal rights, opposed to birth control, and so forth.
Perhaps most progressive Christians are Catholic, but that still does not make Catholicism a 'Progressive Group'. It is a religious group, which is opposed as a group to basic equality for millions of people. Individuals within that group who favor equal rights are still giving their legitimacy to the larger group, not to mention the cold hard cash it takes to organize against my commmunity.
Jesus said to be very specific with words, you 'yes' is to mean yes, your no to mean no. A conservative organization with progressives in it is not a Progressive group. The identity of the whole is made by the hierarchy. There ares Republicans who support equal rights, but that does not make the GOP into a group supporting equality.
The word games around issues as important as the survivl of my familuy are not helpful, and not progressive.

[hunter]

39. Our parish is very much oriented by Social Justice issues.

My wife's parents live in a similar parish. I enjoy attending Mass.

For a few years my parents lived in a place where it was uncomfortable to attend Mass. There wasn't anything that wouldn't provoke that Priest to rant about socialized medicine aborting babies and euthanazing old people or homosexuals destroying marriages and turning our kids into promiscuous drug addicted sex fiends.

If I lived in such a parish there is no way I'd have anything to do with it. Or maybe I'd damn myself by stealing money from the collection and giving it to Planned Parenthood.

My parents (who gave up on church a long time ago since my mom is the sort who could provoke a fist-fight with the Pope) don't live there anymore.

I see it the same as being a citizen of the United States. The leadership is often rotten, but the community is not.

[Aerows]

59. Well said

"The leadership is often rotten, but the community is not." Well said. I noticed the rainbow, and you referenced your wife - are you a lesbian, or a straight couple? Forgive me for asking but I am always thankful when I see support of the gay community within the Church, and don't make assumptions that those who support us are also gay :).

[hunter]

67. We're straight.

The flag is in support!

[KoKo]

62. Some Catholic Churches (under gread penalty) and Protestant Churches are breaking off because of

the terible Injustices their congregations are seeing. They are courageous for doing that because, in many cases, they are subjected to the Churches being thrown out and left adrift of their affiliation.

But, a true CHRISTIAN CHURCH would never have tolerated what's been going on in the US for Decades or thousands of years with the killings. :-(

[musette_sf]

48. Wojityla, Ratzinger's George W,

(actually both of them) are primarily responsible for the RCC's recent Race To The Dark Ages.

American Catholicism has been highly perverted by this new, muscular right-wing Catholicism, perpetuated in the US by EWTN TV and radio. They are basically the mouthpiece for the Vatican.

In many US parishes, the focus on social justice has dwindled, replaced by incessant misogyny and gay-bashing. If you tune into ANY EWTN program on the radio, ALL you ever hear is ranting and raving against women (disobedient women, that is) and gays (who refuse to be gayly celibate unto death, that is).

I recently found out, with great rejoicing on my part, that one of the primary mouthpieces for this disgusting muscular Catholicism has been suspended from his priestly duties due to a letter from one of his victims finding its way to this creep's local hierarchy. The belligerent liar "Father" John Corapi is accused of, shock of shock, wimmenz and drugs. I hate this scummy guy... his sermons almost never fail to include a rant about the evils of Eve and HER "original sin" cursing us all. I'm saying a Novena that all of the charges against him are true.

Ratzinger is pushing the Church more and more to the right, picking up where Wojityla left off. Ratzinger's ascendancy to the Papacy is very much like Cheney's ascension to VP... while looking for the best man for the job, he decided it was HIM. Many American Catholics are POd big time at what these two have done to our Church. But you have to read publications like the National Catholic Reporter to get any information that is not Vatican-imprimatured, i.e., censored.

[Aerows]

55. I went to Catholic High School

and was introduced to civil participation by a nun. We went to City Hall to protest the dumping of gypsum in our water supply. I'm a lesbian, and I will never be accepted by the Catholic Church, but I respect the institution, and what the people there taught me.

You have to pick and choose what you will believe. I am a far better person for attending that civil activism forum, because it taught me that we are all citizens.

[KoKo]

63. Lot's of those Nuns and even some Priests did very good teaching kids about Govenment

and so did many of the mainstream Protestant Church/Sunday Schools. But, times changed, and they got very dependent on the "BIG MONEY" and the Catholic Church had Scandals and the Protestant Churches stoppped doing Activism and it was all left up to the RW Fundie Churches to INSPIRE with great music and lots of hugging and kissing..(until you spoke up or questioned)

The way many of us were raised by some Religious who really CARED about TEACHING and getting students involved in Government and the Society around them to Make Change and Do Good Works...is Gone.

What happened to it? Change in Cultural Values and Fund Raising?

[JanMichael]

58. In terms of numbers maybe. In terms of percent I'd go with Quakers and...

...Episcopalians and United Methodists and have probably missed a couple. Anecdotally the Catholics I've known have typically been pretty conservative politically along with other various "non sectarian christians" and Mormons.

Of course I could be all wrong as I'm a non-christian agnostic married to an Episcopalian.

EDIT: I should have mentioned the Liberation Theology Catholics (also called Christian Marxist by some people) who are almost as commie as I am. I dig those types.

[KoKo]

61. Lawrence is Opus Dei...but that's Okay...we have our Right Wing Evangelicals...

Would love to see some Presbyterians and Episcopalians in the mix...but ..oops..they are probably there.."behind the scenes.'

[JI7]

64. don't liberal states like Massachusettes have a lot of Catholics ?