Libyan Revolution Day 35 part 2 (Benghazi says thanks, Misurata persists after 5 days shelling)

[joshcryer]

Links to sites with updates: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-24">AJE Live Blog March 24 (today) http://blogs.aljazeera.net/twitter-dashboard">AJE Twitter Dashboard http://feb17.info/">feb17.info http://www.livestream.com/libya17feb?utm_source=lsplayer&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=footerlinks">Libya Alhurra (live video webcast from Benghazi) http://www.libyafeb17.com/">libyafeb17.com

Twitter links: http://twitter.com/#!/aymanm">Ayman Mohyeldin, with AJE http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn">Ben Wedeman, with CNN http://twitter.com/#!/tripolitanian">tripolitanian, a Libyan from Tripoli http://twitter.com/#!/BaghdadBrian">Brian Conley, reporter in Libya http://twitter.com/#!/freelibyanyouth">FreeLibyanYouth, Libyan advocate http://twitter.com/#!/LibyaFeb17_com">LibyaFeb17.com twitter account http://twitter.com/#!/ChangeInLibya">ChangeInLibya, Libyan advocate

Useful links: http://audioboo.fm/feb17voices">feb17voices http://www.google.com/search?q=time+in+libya">Current time in Libya http://www.islamicfinder.org/cityPrayerNew.php?country=libya">Prayer times in Libya

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x728073">Day 35 part 1 here.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-rebels-intel-20110324,0,5352122.story">U.S. finds no organized Al Qaeda presence in Libya opposition, officials say
Reporting from Washington— Despite fears that Islamic extremists may be playing a hidden role in the rebellion against Moammar Kadafi, the U.S. intelligence community has found no organized presence of Al Qaeda or its allies among the Libyan opposition, American officials say.

A U.S. intelligence-gathering effort that began shortly after anti-Kadafi forces started seizing towns in eastern Libya last month has not uncovered a significant presence of Islamic militants among the insurgents.

"We're keeping an eye out for extremist activity in Libya, but we haven't seen much, if any, to date," said a U.S. counter-terrorism official. A Defense official added that the U.S. had not seen a direct link between the opposition and extremists.

A congressional staffer who receives intelligence briefings did not dispute those assessments. But the aide added: "There ought to be a concern and recognition that there may be such a linkage. There should also be an appreciation that the opposition is not a uniform, monolithic movement."

http://www.euronews.net/2011/03/23/benghazi-rally-thanks-coalition-for-air-strikes/">Benghazi rally thanks coalition for air strikes - video
People in Benghazi have held a rally in support of the allied air campaign against Colonel Gaddafi’s forces.

Coalition air strikes are credited with stopping an advance by government forces in its tracks, and giving a huge morale boost to the rebels.

Among the crowds were banners expressing thanks – in English and French – to the countries involved, and plenty of pre-Gaddafi era Libyan flags.

As the UN prepares again to discuss Libya, there were also some words of advice for those who have not backed military action.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/23/libya-allied-air-strikes-misrata">Libya: Allied air strikes secure Misrata for rebels
Nearly 12 hours of allied air strikes have broken the Libyan regime's five-day bloody assault on the key rebel-held town of Misrata.

Residents said yesterday that the aerial bombardment destroyed tanks and artillery and sent many of Muammar Gaddafi's forces fleeing from Misrata, ending a siege and attack by the regime that cost nearly 100 lives from random shelling, snipers and bitter street fighting.

Mohammed Ali, an IT engineer at Misrata's main hospital, said that waves of air strikes began shortly after midnight on Wednesday.

"They bombed a lot of sites of the Gaddafi army. There is a former hospital where his tanks were based. All the tanks and the hospital were destroyed. A column of tanks was destroyed on the edge of the city," he said. "After that there was no shelling. We are very relieved. We are very grateful. We want to thank the world. The Gaddafi forces are scattered around. All that is left is the snipers and our fighters can take care of them."

Videos to bring the Libyan Revolution into context:

The Battle of Benghazi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vChMDuNd0

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaPnMnpCAA

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMzwQvcx62s

Latest indiscriminate shelling in Misurata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wop3C4zrPXI


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x677397">Text of the resolution.

How will a no fly zone work? AJE reports: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWEwehTtK2k

Canada:

http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110317/cf-libya-canada/20110317/?hub=WinnipegHome">Canada to send six CF-18s for Libya 'no-fly' mission
Canada will contribute six CF-18 fighter jets to help enforce a no-fly zone in Libya, sources have told CTV News.

Norway:

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFOSN00509220110318">Norway to join military intervention in Libya
OSLO, March 18 (Reuters) - Norway will join the international military action against Muammar Gaddafi's forces in Libya, a Norwegian daily quoted the defence minister as saying on its website on Friday.

"We will contribute to the operation," Grete Faremo told the daily Verdens Gang. "But it is too early to say exactly in what way. Sending air capabilities would be natural."

Belgium:

http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/monde/2011-03-18/la-belgique-prete-a-une-operation-militaire-en-libye-828970.php">Belgium ready for a military operation in Libya
Our country is available to take part in a military operation in Libya, following the UN vote authorizing the use of force against Gaddafi. The government has observed, in Parliament yesterday, a broad consensus in the Belgian political class on the need to prevent the Libyan leader to crush the rebellion in Benghazi.

Qatar and the UAE:

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/776/?SID=e80884adc09a37d26904578a9b5978cb">Run-up for Western world’s next military commitment ... with unusual support
France and the United Kingdom, which spearheaded the diplomatic push in the Security Council for the implementation of a no-fly zone, received unusual but certainly very welcome support. According to a further unnamed AFP source, the Council confirmed that Qatar and the UAE will join the international effort.

Denmark:

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/international/89-international/51229-denmark-ready-for-action-against-gaddafi.html">Denmark ready for action against Gaddafi
Espersen will discuss the resolution “as soon as possible” with the other political parties.

“We’re ready to take action immediately, and that includes ensuring prompt treatment of the resolution in parliament, so that Denmark can deploy its four F-16 fighter jets,” she said.

France:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/world/africa/19libya.html?src=twrhp">Following U.N. Vote, France Vows Libya Action ‘Soon’
UNITED NATIONS — Only hours after the United Nations Security Council voted to authorize military action, including airstrikes against Libyan tanks and heavy artillery and impose a no-flight zone to try to avert a rout of rebels by forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi. French officials said on Friday that military action would start “within a few hours” and news reports said British and French warplanes would spearhead the attack.

Italy:

http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE72G2HE20110317">Italy to make bases available for Libya no-fly zone-source
TUNIS, March 17 (Reuters) - Italy is ready to make its military bases available to enforce a U.N. Security Counci resolution imposing a no-fly zone on Libya, an Italian government source told Reuters on Thursday.

United Kingdom:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12770467">Libya: UK forces prepare after UN no-fly zone vote
UK forces are preparing to help enforce a no-fly zone over Libya after the UN backed "all necessary measures", short of an invasion, to protect civilians.

United States:

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/nations-draw-up-plans-for-no-fly-zone-over-libya-1.2765122">Nations draw up plans for no-fly zone over Libya
The United States, France and Britain were making plans Friday to prevent Moammar Gadhafi's forces from attacking Libyans after the U.N. Security Council authorized a no-fly zone over Libya and "all necessary measures" to protect civilians.

Jordan:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/military-strikes-on-libya-within-hours-20110318-1bzii.html?from=smh_sb">Military strikes on Libya 'within hours'
Jordan, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates will join international forces ready to enforce the no-fly zone, US Congress and UN diplomatic sources say.

Spain:

http://english.cri.cn/6966/2011/03/19/2801s627320.htm">Spain Expected to Join NATO No-fly Zone Enforcement over Libya Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero is expected to confirm Spain's contribution of two air force bases at a summit in Paris to discuss the enforcement of a no-fly zone over Libya Saturday.

"One month ago (Western countries) were sooo nice, so nice like pussycats," Saif says in a contemptuous sing-song tone."Now they want to be really aggressive like tigers. (But) soon they will come back, and cut oil deals, contracts. We know this game." - http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058389,00.html">Saif Gaddafi

(Yeah, Saif, as if you weren't "cutting oil deals, contracts" with western states. Who are the 'tigers' now? Bombing your own people.)

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0">March 10 7:28pm Saif al Islam Gaddafi says "the time has come for full-scale military action" against Libyan rebels. He goes on to say that Libyan forces loyal to his family "will never surrender, even if western powers intervene".

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/02/25/world/middleeast/map-of-how-the-protests-unfolded-in-libya.html">Click here for updated map

Military Installations



Oil Map



http://bit.ly/fe3P">Google Earth DL here to see positions of army and patrolling route of mercenaries

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=212059469427545728757.00049c4df2474b6543347&ll=31.203405,30.058594&spn=96.173452,183.867188&z=3">MAP of Protests across the Middle East

Mohammed Nabbous, killed by Gaddafi's forces while trying to report on the massacre in Benghazi

"I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to lose the battle" -Mohammed Nabbous, a month ago when all this began

I'm struggling to come up with something to say about this man. I was not aware of the Libyan uprising until I saw Mo's first report, begging for help, posted here on DU. I was stricken. Here was a man giving everything he had to explain a situation that clearly terrified him, I would not call him a coward in that moment, but you could see the fear in his eyes, and desperation in his voice. For 30 days Nabbous would spend many hours covering the uprising in Benghazi. For many nights I would go to sleep with the webcast of Benghazi live on my computer screen, looking to it occasionally to be sure it was still 'there.' Mo treated the chat room as if we were his friends, and in some way, we were. I never signed up to LiveStream to thank him for all his work and it seems somewhat shallow to do so now, given that I was a lurker for so long. Ever since I took over posting these threads "Libya Alhurra" has been linked as a source of information. It wasn't until last night, when I posted, and twitter posted on Mo's adventures out into Benghazi to try to determine the truth of the situation, that Mo's webchannel became a hit, over 2000 people were watching him stream live. This was curious to him because he'd done many reports like this in the past but he appeared somewhat bemused that the view count exploded as it did. Last night Mo became a star. This is a man who first started out with a webcast replete with fear and desperation finally overcoming that aspect of himself and losing that fear, to become someone who was a fighter for the resistance just as much as those who held the guns. Reporting on the front lines of Benghazi became his final act, and for that he should never, ever be forgotten. I'm so sorry Mo that I never got to know you better.

Mo's first report, which many of you may remember, begging for help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38EXALI60hg

Mo's last report, a fallen hero trying to spread the word to the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecu_iWLn-rg

Mo leaves behind a wife who is with child, she had http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/23/a_bright_voice_from_libyas_darkness">this to say about the No Fly Zone and R2P UN resolution:

We started this in a pure way, but he turned it bloody. Thousands of our men, women, and children have died. We just wanted our freedom, that's all we wanted, we didn't want power. Before, we could not do a single thing if it was not the way he wanted it. All we wanted was freedom. All we wanted was to be free. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up. We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Libya got liberated by anybody else. If NATO didn't start moving when they did, I assure you, I assure you, half of Benghazi if not more would have been killed. If they stop helping us, we are going to be all killed because he has no mercy anymore.

[joshcryer]

1. Current time in Libya is 2:24pm Thursday, March 24

[joshcryer]

2. Qaddafi Loyalists Resume Attacks on Rebel Cities

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/world/africa/25libya.html">Qaddafi Loyalists Resume Attacks on Rebel Cities
TRIPOLI, Libya — Despite ferocious allied airstrikes on Libyan ground forces, tanks and artillery, forces loyal to Muammar el-Qaddafi were reported on Thursday to have deployed snipers against residents of a key western city while maintaining their grip on a strategic crossroads town in the east.

As the Western military campaign entered a new phase, drawing the Pentagon deeper into the fight, Tripoli resounded to a fifth night of airstrikes, a day after a pounding from allied warplanes in the rebel-held city of Misurata forced Colonel Qaddafi’s troops to pull back for much of the day.

By nightfall, however, his forces had renewed their attacks. Government tanks terrorized Misurata the city, in one instance firing a shell that landed 20 yards from a hospital door. In what seemed to be a cat-and-mouse contest with allied air power, pro-Qaddafi forces pulled back their T-72 tanks after about 45 minutes as American and European warplanes roared overheard, residents reported on Thursday.

There were conflicting reports about the status of a port on the eastern approaches to the city of 300,000. The residents said the rebels retained control of the area after two warships from the pro-Qaddafi camp pulled out, possibly in reaction to airstrikes against naval facilities around Tripoli.

[joshcryer]

3. Allies target Libyan ground forces after decimating air force

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article1567978.ece">Allies target Libyan ground forces after decimating air force
The massive strikes on Col. Qaddafi’s ground forces, including his big Armada of tanks, mobile rocket launchers, heavy guns and short range battle missiles, mark the second phase of operation ‘Odyssey Dawn’, British Air Vice Marshal Greg Bagwell said.

U.S. and allied forces today shifted focus on hitting Libyan ground forces, targeting tanks and artillery to obliterate Muammar Qaddafi’s war waging machine, as French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe warned that the campaign may go on for weeks.

The shift to attack the ground forces came after coalition commanders claimed that Libyan air force had been completely destroyed and that the U.S. and NATO warplanes had total sway of the Libyan sky.

The massive strikes on Col. Qaddafi’s ground forces, including his big Armada of tanks, mobile rocket launchers, heavy guns and short range battle missiles, mark the second phase of operation ‘Odyssey Dawn’, British Air Vice Marshal Greg Bagwell said.

[joshcryer]

4. Allies Step Up Bombing in Tripoli

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704425804576219913829478464.html">Allies Step Up Bombing in Tripoli
Intermittent explosions could be heard starting on Wednesday night local-time and lasting until dawn on Thursday. The sound of antiaircraft fire was quieter than on other nights, suggesting that coalition forces may have degraded the abilities of Libyan forces in this respect.

Libyan Deputy Foreign Minister Khalid Kaim said a microwave tower in Tripoli's eastern suburb of Tajura and fuel tanks south of the capital were struck, but offered few details, such as whether there were casualties.

Residents said military installations in Tajura were targeted. They included a base for radar systems and the military-engineering academy, both close to residential areas.

Later in the day, state media broadcast footage from what it said was a base for a unit of the Libyan army's seventh division in Tajura. A pile of wrecked military vehicles and trucks was shown going up in flames, sending plumes of heavy smoke into the night-time sky. An unnamed military officer at the scene said tanks and missile carriers were among the equipment destroyed, adding that six rockets hit the facility from the sea.

[joshcryer]

5. Susan Rice: A Voice for Intervention

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2061112,00.html">Susan Rice: A Voice for Intervention
As Muammar Gaddafi's troops closed in on the rebel stronghold of Benghazi on March 15, President Barack Obama put the fate of the city's 1 million residents in the hands of U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice. At a meeting of the National Security Council (NSC) that afternoon, Defense Secretary Robert Gates, leery of another war in the Middle East, told Obama a U.N.-proposed no-fly zone would not stop Gaddafi from taking the town. Rice, participating via video teleconference from New York City, said she could get a tougher resolution allowing broader intervention — including the ability to attack armor and ground troops — that would do the trick.

Obama gave Rice the go-ahead — and in doing so, put her on the spot. Rice, 46, was a staffer at the NSC in 1994 when the world failed to stop the genocide in Rwanda. A participant in deliberations on the crisis, she later said the White House failed to see the larger moral imperative to act and told Harvard scholar Samantha Power, now an Obama NSC aide, "I swore to myself that if I ever faced such a crisis again, I would come down on the side of dramatic action, going down in flames if that was required."

[bobbolink]

24. "I swore to myself that if I ever faced such a crisis again, I would come down on the side of

dramatic action, going down in flames if that was required."

whew.... what a tremendous statement.

I think this is a turning point for many of us. As we have spent so much of our lives protesting war and working against a huge buildup of weapons, we have to stretch our awareness now to include the responsibility we have as citizens of this planet.

I think this is going to be a HUGE issue, and we need to start discussing this widely.

I hope that someone here will post this fantastic statement on GD as a solo thread.

After the attacks I had last night on my two threads, I'm not sure I'm spiritually prepared for yet another onslaught.

Thank you so much for finding and posting this!

[joshcryer]

6. Omar Sodani Innocent: Rebels Take Note

http://mathaba.net/news/?x=626257">Omar Sodani Innocent: Rebels Take Note
The International Revolutionary Committees Movement, gives clear notice to the rebels of Benghazi that it is well known internationally and among adherents of the Third Universal Theory worldwide, that Omar Sodani had nothing to do with the shooting of WPC Yvonne Fletcher outside the Libyan People's Bureau in London in 1984.

Furthermore, it has been clear that none of those present in the Embassy on that day could have shot the Women's Police Constable, as shown by forensic evidence and several investigations which determined the source of the shots coming from a rented building nearby. Moreover, it is known to us who rented that building and that the shots came from there, and that this information is also known to New Scotland Yard.

Therefore, any pretence of New Scotland Yard to want to question Omar Sodani is nothing but show casing and pretence, for public image and public relations purposes. We warn New Scotland Yard that other matters concerning its highest level corruption and several operations involving great expense and waste of resources, will be exposed to the world as utter and complete buffoons should they wish to attempt to compete in an information war.

The rebels of Benghazi are also served notice, that it is well known that Omar Sodani like many good people was an adherent and advocate of the Third Universal Theory, which principles are common sense, logic, scientific, and in harmony with Natural Law, as well as Islamic and religious principles.

Very weird communique. Thought it was worth posting for prosperities sake.

[Iterate]

84. Actually, you snagged something interesting here as well.

It's not going to be a turning point in history or anything, but still noteworthy. I don't know how to convey the meaning of it without spending more time than it's worth, but I'll try.

First some definitions, and the players mentioned.

There were, from the sixties, several similarly intended committees that tried to hold together collections of generally pro-democratic, socialist, anti-imperialist international groups, usually pretty small groups. This is one of them, based in Venezuela.

Third Universal Theory isn't the third of much of anything, isn't universal, and isn't a theory. It's Gaddafi's loosely connected and handpicked collection of socialist and democratic ideals (many of which have been around since the days of neolithic tribal councils), and forms part of the Green Book that every Libyan schoolchild studied. Gaddafi included a notion of "direct democracy", large people's congresses in which those previously excluded from power could participate in the democracy.

That idea had a popular appeal, especially in South America. Plus that, in the 1990's, if you were anti-American, or even independent, you didn't have many options when it came to finding friends in the international community.

In Gaddafi's version, the people's congress was a group of cronies who quickly approved whatever he gently suggested. You know now what Libyans think of the Green Book and the People's Congress. It was his way of decreasing participation by denying access to power by any other group or coalition. In fact, all other groups and coalitions were banned, right down to the local bowling league.

In the 1990's some of the South American adherents came to realize that too. They distanced themselves from Gaddafi, though not all did.

Now we come to the matter of Omar Sodani. Remember he was captured in Benghazi a few weeks ago. He was one of the suspects alleged to have fired the shot that killed WPC Yvonne Fletcher(a policewoman) outside the Libyan embassy in 1984. It was the event that led to the siege of the embassy and the breakoff of relations by the UK. Scotland Yard had pretty much cleared Sodani, but when he was captured the news accounts were written that he was the killer.

In this communique, the group is "warning" (because Omar Sodani was a supporter of the Third Universal Theory) not to engage in an information war, and with all the revolutionary bravado and self-importance they can muster are giving the ok to get rid of Gaddafi, but not to dare junk the current political system without making an enemy.

So it looks like American centrists aren't the only ones worried that the outcome of the Libyan democratic revolution may be one that they personally disapprove of. A little group in Venezuela is worried too.

[MedleyMisty]

106. Oh wow - thanks for explaining

Always happy to learn more about Libya and its history and everything. I was three in 1984, so didn't know about that event.

[Iterate]

121. A lifetime's worth of learning, I'm sure.

And just when we gain some modest background on north African history and politics, we need DUers who can understand Syria, Turkey, and the Arabian peninsula. I'd thought earlier in the week that I would spend some time with Turkey, but it's so complex that the more I learn the less I know.

[bobbolink]

136. Rest assured.... whatever you add, I will deeply appreciate.

None of history stuck with me, and I have a lot more interest now.

I'm not in a place to study, but will happily absorb what you or anyone else wants to share here.

This has become a haven for me... badly needed.

[joshcryer]

7. Gaddafi Tanks Roll Back from Two Cities

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2061123,00.html">Gaddafi Tanks Roll Back from Two Cities
(BENGHAZI, Libya) — NATO ships began patrolling off Libya's coast Wednesday as airstrikes, missiles and energized rebels forced Muammar Gaddafi's tanks to roll back from two key western cities, including one that was the hometown of army officers who tried to overthrow him in 1993.

Libya's opposition took haphazard steps to form a government in the east, as they and the U.S.-led force protecting them girded for prolonged and costly fighting. Despite disorganization among the rebels — and confusion over who would ultimately run the international operation — coalition airstrikes and missiles seemed to thwart Gaddafi's efforts to rout his opponents, at least for now.

Anti-aircraft fire lit up the sky in Tripoli late Wednesday, and explosions could be heard.

Coalition aircraft hit a fuel depot in Tripoli, a senior government official told reporters in a late-night news conference. Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Kaim at first denied reports that Gaddafi's compound in Tripoli was hit earlier, then bactracked and said he had no information about that. Other targets Wednesday were near Benghazi and Misrata, he said.

U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates acknowledged there is no clear end to the international military enforcement of the no-fly zone over Libya, but President Barack Obama said it "absolutely" will not lead to a U.S. land invasion.

[joshcryer]

8. French strike deep in Libya, targeting arms flow

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/international/africa/view/20110324french_strike_deep_in_libya_targeting_arms_flow/srvc=home&position=recent">French strike deep in Libya, targeting arms flow
BENGHAZI, Libya — French airstrikes hit an air base deep inside Libya in an effort to stop possible traffic of arms or the flow of mercenaries into Libya, a military official said Thursday.

In a key eastern city, talks between Moammar Gadhafi’s forces and between tribal sheiks over their possible withdrawal stalled over a demand that the troops leave their heavy weaponry behind, rebels said Thursday.

The French strikes overnight hit a base about 250 kilometers (155 miles) south of the Libyan coastline, French military spokesman Thierry Burkhard told reporters in Paris on Thursday without elaborating on the target. He said military officials would keep any analysis of damage confidential.

[joshcryer]

9. Here's that video of the protesters talking in the streets of Misrata, then being shelled:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNnZ9Ss0OJE

[tabatha]

10. Gadhafi sends up first warplane violating no fly zone

#BREAKING ABC's Martha Raddatz: #Gadhafi sends up first warplane violating no fly zone -- plane is shot down by French fighter jets. #Libya

http://www.breakingnews.com/seed/ahBicmVha2luZ25ld3Mtd3d3cg0LEgRTZWVkGMfV5QIM/2011/03/24/breaking-abcs-martha-raddatz-gadhafi-sends-up-first-warplane-violating-no-fly-zone-plane-is-shot-down-by-french-fighter-jets-libya


More on the Libyan plane shot down: Was flying over Misrata. Was a Soko G-2 Galeb. This acc to ABC News

[pinboy3niner]

13. Gadhafi's Warplane Shot Down by French Fighter Jets in Misrata

Source: ABC News

Gadhafi's Warplane Shot Down by French Fighter Jets in Misrata


Gen. Ham Says Gadhafi Intends to Wait Until U.S. Hands Over Lead of Coalition


By MARTHA RADDATZ, ALEXANDER MARQUARDT and LUIS MARTINEZ
ABOARD THE USS Kearsarge -- March 24, 2011


Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi challenged the allies' no-fly zone for the first time today, sending up a warplane over the city of Misrata where it was quickly shot down by French fighter jets, a senior French military official said.

The plane launched by Gadhafi was a "galeb," a single-engine military aircraft.

Africa Command's Gen. Carter F. Ham told ABC News Gadhafi's forces are advancing in the northwest city of Misrata, with his men dressing as civilians. Ham said there are still plenty of command and control centers left for the allied forces to target.

Gadhafi is aware there will be a transfer of power from the United States in the coming days, Ham said, and the embattled leader seems to think he will wait it out until the United States no longer has command.


http://abcnews.go.com/International/war-libya-moammar-gadhafi-warplane-misrata-shot-french/story?id=13210685

[happyslug]

55. So we shot down a jet trainer?

That is what the "Galob" is a Yugoslavian (now Serbian) designed and built jet trainer.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soko_G-4_Super_Galeb

Picture of what we shot down:

[CJvR]

77. Well if....

...you look closely at the picture you posted you will note the weapons load arrayed in front of the plane as well as the ground attack missile pods under the wings. Most advanced trainers are capable of light strike mission.

[happyslug]

114. But from more detail reports below, it sounds like it was bate

What I mean, who ever was flying it, flew it to draw fire to see if it was clear for more advance fighters to take to the air.

The plane could also have been doing a low-low-low ground mission, taking off, then staying about 600 feet above the ground fire its weapons load and then landing. The reports is that it was landing or had landed when it was fired on by a air to surface missile NOT an air to air missile. It may have been just parked on a runway, waiting to see if anyone would attack it. The facts are a little short of details.

[tabatha]

11. Top Ten Accomplishments of the UN No-Fly Zone

Posted on 03/24/2011 by Juan

1. The participation of the Muslim world in the United Nations no-fly zone over Libya has been underlined. The measure was called for by the Arab League, which has not in fact changed its mind about its desirability. Qatar is expected to be flying missions over Libya by this weekend. Other Arab League countries will give logistical support.

2. Turkey, which feels that the air mission has gone too far, has nevertheless agreed to use its navy to help enforce the boycott on the Qaddafi regime. Turkey, a largely Muslim country of 72 million, has also called on Qaddafi to step down. A general NATO naval blockade of weapons shipments to the Qaddafi regime has begun.

...

The liberation movement at the moment likely controls about half of Libya’s population, as long as Misrata and Zintan do not fall. It also likely controls about half of the petroleum facilities. If Benghazi can retake Brega and Ra’s Lanouf and Zawiya, Qaddafi soon won’t have gasoline for his tanks or money to pay his mercenaries. Pundits who want this whole thing to be over with in 7 days are being frankly silly. Those who worry about it going on forever are being unrealistic. Those who forget or cannot see the humanitarian achievements already accomplished are being willfully blind.

http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/top-ten-accomplishments-of-the-un-no-fly-zone.html

[pinboy3niner]

12. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 5 PM THURSDAY, MARCH 24

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[pinboy3niner]

14. Jordan to provide solely humanitarian assistance to coalition

Jordan says its assistance to the international coalition action against the Libyan regime will be solely humanitarian.

Information Minister Taher Adwan told AFP news agency:

We will provide ambulances or humanitarian aid. We will not take part in actions on the ground in Libya

Adwan comment comes a day after British prime minister David Cameron said Kuwait and Amman will provide "logistic contributions".


4:12pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-24

[pinboy3niner]

15. Ship carrying fuel bound for Libya; may be interdicted or attacked, offricial says

A ship carrying fuel is bound for Libya, which needs imports to relieve a shortage, a Libyan energy official told Reuters today. The official said Western forces may interdict or attack the ship.


2:14pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-24

[pinboy3niner]

16. Brief summary of events so far today

From The Guardian:

• French aircraft struck an an air base deep inside Libya. The overnight raids overnight hit a base about 155 miles south of the Libyan coast. There are unconfirmed reports that a Libyan plane was shot down by French aircraft, the first since the no-fly zone came into force.

• The Libyan military has reported attacks against military and civilian targets in Tajoura, near Tripoli. If confirmed these would be the first daytime raids in or near the capital since the coalition campaign began five days ago.

• Fighting has ceased at the western city of Misrata but government snipers have continued firing from the top of the city's main hospital. Government forces continue to occupy the hospital and the surrounding area.

• The Foreign Secretary has urged all British citizens to leave Yemen "without delay". William Hague said there are contingency plans to evacuate British nationals.


2.16pm:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/24/libya-crisis-live-updates

[pinboy3niner]

17. "My 14-yr-old son shot in leg...had to be amputated...because no proper medical treatment"

Misrata: Fighting has subsided, but snipers remain and situation is "miserable."

The Guardian provides a report from Muhammed, a revolutionary spokesman:

Misrata is in a miserable situation, people can hardly go out for their basic needs because of the snipers on top of the main hospital, University Hospital, which has tanks surrounding it. The hospital is empty of patients but has become a base for government forces.

I helped in evacuating 19 bodies and more than 100 wounded. The rebels moved to the other hospital in the city which is 1.5km from the vegetable market after the main hospital was taken by Gaddafi forces. There are some tanks stuck in this covered market. If they come out, they come under rebel fire and if they try to flee, the crews will be killed by the people.

The 10-floor hospital is full of wounded, but their families are scared to visit because of the shooting and there is an acute shortage of medical supplies. There is a a clinic for new born babies called al-Saeed clinic. It was hit by tank fire and we do not know what happened to the babies there.

There is no fighting between the rebels and Gaddafi forces, but snipers are not giving a chance for any one to move and the tanks are shooting at random.

My 14-year-old son, Hassan, was shot in the leg, which had to be amputated because there is no proper medical treatment. Power comes and goes in the centre of the city but there is no power at all in the outskirts. we depend on generators. Still, getting fuel is not that easy, so we have to use it carefully. Mobiles and landlines are dead only Skype is working and this is how we chat to each other and transmit news between different cities in Libya.

Water is a real problem in Libya before the war but now it is worse cause the main city that supplied Misrata with water, Sekket, is controlled by Gaddafi forces. Misrata is well-known for being a commercial city but with no more food coming to the city, we do not know what will happen. People are trying to share their food now.

1.59pm:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/24/libya-crisis-live-updates

[tabatha]

87. Doctors operating without anesthesia in Misrata hospital

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/24/libya.hospital.scene/index.html

[pinboy3niner]

18. Good map of coalition forces in the Mediterranean:

The US Naval Institute has released his handy map showing the location and nationality of the international forces brought to bear against Gaddafi (courtesy of AJE):

[pinboy3niner]

19. More info on shoot-down of Libyan jet by French Rafale fighter:

AP has more on the shooting down of the Libyan jet, all based on anonymous US sources as France has yet to confirm the incident.

The French Rafale fighter helping enforce a no-fly zone over Libya destroyed what was identified as a Libyan G-2/Galeb, which is a trainer aircraft, near the coastal city of Misrata. The US official said the Libyan plane may have been landing at the time of the attack. The official cautioned that details were still being confirmed.

3.31pm:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/24/libya-crisis-live-updates

[pinboy3niner]

20. UPDATE: Libyan plane may have been destroyed on the ground 'after it landed'

NBC News reporting that U.S. officials are confirming the aircraft was destroyed by a French warplane, but say "it may have already been on the ground."

French officials reportedly are confirming that a French Rafale fighter destroyed a Libyan military aircraft. Reports indicate the Libyan plane may have already landed.

[pinboy3niner]

21. French confirm air-to-ground missile fired on Libyan plane after it landed

France has finally confirmed what ABC News tweeted about three hours ago (1.07pm). This from Reuters.

A French warplane fired an air-to-ground missile at a Libyan military plane and destroyed it just after it landed at Misrata air force base, a French armed forces spokesman said on Thursday. "The French patrol carried out an air-to-ground strike with an AASM weapon just after the plane had landed at the Misrata airbase," the spokesman said, adding that the plane, belonging to Muammar Gaddafi's military, had breached the UN-imposed no-fly zone.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/24/libya-crisis-live-updates

[tabatha]

22. I wonder if it was someone defecting?

[pinboy3niner]

23. 'Morning, Tabatha! Flying in NFZ is not the smartest way to defect... :)

I hope we'll learn the details on why the Libyan pilot was flying--sounds pretty bizarre. And if the plane had landed, was the pilot still aboard at the time of the strike?

:hi:

[tabatha]

31. Flying in a NFZ is not smart,, period. But he did land.

Sawubona! I wonder how busy today will be. I will just be checking in for news today, not posting - lots of coding to do.

[happyslug]

62. I doubt it, most Libyan Pilots are from Qaddafi own tribe

From I have read from various sources, Qaddafi tribe controls the Libyan Air Force, he left the other tribes participate in the Land Forces, but the Air Force he keeps under the control of his fellow tribesmen (Who are NOT in revolt against Qaddafi).

[tabatha]

71. Two pilots defected to Malta right at the beginning.

Before the NFZ.

http://www.businessdayonline.com/NG/index.php/news/76-hot-topic/18394-two-libyan-airforce-officers-defect-to-malta

[happyslug]

115. I remember that, but then no one else has, it later it was reported on who are the pilots

Thus I doubt you will see any other pilots defect, they had a chance and only two did. That implies that the reminding pilots are loyal to Qaddafi (and I use the term implied, to mean just that, it is implied but they can be other reasons i.e no access to planes to defect, not enough fuel in the planes when sent on a mission to defect).

[tabatha]

117. Not at all.

He could threaten their families if they do anything. He has done that.

[Waiting For Everyman]

25. Tweets from Transitional National Council presser @ 1 hour ago (interesting)

@SerajElalem Seraj Elalem
http://alive.in/libya/



Libya new spokesman for the military council Omar Elhariri, press conference starting now

Correction new spokesman is Air Force pilot col. Ahmed Omar Bani

TNC stresses again that there are no human casualties, and what's seen on TV are revolutionaries killed by Gaddafi in west Libya

TNC: betting on Gaddafi is betting on a lost horse, it will damage you and your poeple in future relations with Libya

39 tanks invaded #misrata Waldensian morning, 22 were destroyed by revolutionaries using RPGs

#Misrata sea port is still under the control of the revolutionaries

#Zintan yesterday was attack but attack was blocked, 120 mercenaries were killed, 15 were captured, and forces were pushed back 35K.M

3 tanks, 2 GRAD vehicles, anti-air missle carrying truck, BMB troop carrier and 4 cruiser carrying AA guns captured in#zintan

a ferocious fight in @Ijdabia with cars carry soldiers, western gate bombed this morning

Gaddafi forces are gathering in #Kufra airport

there was a plane being prepaired to transport and unknown VIP through #Kufra airport, but the plane was hit by coalition forces

mercenaries are still coming from Chad through Kufra

Gaddafi forces went through Murada, Jalo and Awjala and arresting anyone from ex-defense minister's tribe Majbiri tribe

TNC again gives it's thank to the coalition forces and especially France

TNC is trying to negotiate with the mercenaries

TNC expresses it's need for weapons to arm the revolutionaries, saying "friends" are trying to help now

#TNC says they've received promises from Egypt and other countries for military support

#Misrata sea port is still surrounded by Gaddafi sea vessels

The revolution started by the people and now supported by the Army, we're building a new Army now

#TNC says they get their info from confirmed sources in west Libya who have sat phones

#Libya even though supply lines are cutoff Gaddafi forces in #Ijdabia, they have their own supply that keeps them going

#TNC is trying to negotiate Gaddafi forces who are cutoff in #Ijdabia

#TNC a group of Gaddafi mercenaries in #Ijdabia offered to surrender and leave back to Surt, revolutionaries refused (note: I saw from another source that the mercs refused to give up their hardware - that's probably why refused)

there has been no changes in #TNC or Military Council

#TNC says they communicate with mercenaries through a shikh from a mosque

#TNC says there are many member who want to defect from Gaddafi, including a high ranking officer who was forced to attack #Benghazi

We only need support in hardware, but we as Libyan will liberate Libya on our own

#TNC asks the coalition to attack Gaddafi forces surrounding Misrata and Zinta, and mercenaries gathering in #Kufra

There are no French, American or English officers on Libyan grounds

#TNC stresses again that they don't want foreign soldiers on Libyan soil

the press conference over now


_______________

All of these were hashtagged #TNC (for Transitional National Council) in case you want to twitter-search for yourself

[bobbolink]

26. Good day, mate! These are some very revealing tweets, and thanks for posting them!

"39 tanks invaded #misrata Waldensian morning, 22 were destroyed by revolutionaries using RPGs"

That really blows me away! I keep trying to imagine being in this (formerly) ragtag group, and it boggles my mind.

"We only need support in hardware, but we as Libyan will liberate Libya on our own"

And I think that is why they were able to succeed in the first quote.

Libya Hurra!

[CJvR]

82. Tanks...

...are really not at their best in street fighting where everyone with enough balls can sneak up on them with an RPG or a Molotov coctail. Even so I suspect most of those 22 kills were APCs or IFVs rather then MBTs, many use the term "tank" for any tracked military vehicle.

[kenny blankenship]

134. Right but here's the thing. The tanks are dead meat in open country w/ coalition aircraft overhead

they are effectively using the cities as human shields while they try to eliminate the rebel opposition. Coalition rules of engagement are preventing them from engaging those tanks or armored carriers from altitude when they are presumably close to civilians. There are no Apache helicopter gunships that can engage the tanks from up close and low. Meanwhile civilians are getting killed.

[bobbolink]

137. I'm not up on warfare strategy, and appreciate your input!

[pinboy3niner]

27. VERY interesting, thanks WFE

The report of a VIP on that plane raises new questions--who was the VIP, and what was the purpose of the travel? Escape?

The reports on revolutionary successes is pretty rosy, but we have to remember that the council is in a propaganda war with the regime and its assertions are not necessarily accurate. It will be interesting to see independent evaluation of these reports.

[pinboy3niner]

28. Turkey's parliament approves govt decision to join NATO naval operation to enforce embargo

Turkey's parliament approved a government decision to join a NATO naval operation to enforce a UN-sanctioned arms embargo off Libya, Turkish television news channels reports. Turkey, a Muslim member of the Western alliance, has agreed to send four frigates, a submarine and a support vessel for the naval operation.

The United States wants to hand over command of the air campaign to NATO within days, but Turkey's insistence on conditions has held up any agreement on this. Turkey wants NATO to have sole control of military operations and does not want to see the alliance conducting offensive operations that could harm civilians or to be in charge of enforcing a UN-mandated no-fly zone while a smaller coalition's planes are bombing Libyan forces.


6:29pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-24

[al bupp]

49. Frankly, these seem reasonable demands /eom

[pinboy3niner]

29. Turkey and France clash over Libya air campaign

Source: The Guardian

Turkey and France clash over Libya air campaign


Tension mounts over military action as Ankara accuses Sarkozy of pursuing French interests over liberation of Libyan people


Ian Traynor in Brussels guardian.co.uk, Thursday 24 March 2011 16.20 GMT



Turkey has launched a bitter attack on French president Nicolas Sarkozy's and France's leadership of the military campaign against Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, accusing the French of lacking a conscience in their conduct in the Libyan operations.

The vitriolic criticism, from both the prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and the president, Abdullah Gül followed attacks from the Turkish government earlier this week and signalled an orchestrated attempt by Ankara to wreck Sarkozy's plans to lead the air campaign against Gaddafi.


...


Using incendiary language directed at France in a speech in Istanbul, Erdogan said: "I wish that those who only see oil, gold mines and underground treasures when they look in direction, would see the region through glasses of conscience from now on."

President Gül reinforced the Turkish view that France and others were being driven primarily by economic interests. "The aim is not the liberation of the Libyan people," he said. "There are hidden agendas and different interests."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/24/turkey-france-clash-libya-campaign

[pinboy3niner]

30. International Court Expects Libyan Prosecution

Source: Huffington Post

International Court Expects Libyan Prosecution


Posted: 03/24/11 12:08 PM


CAIRO -- The International Criminal Court's prosecutor said Thursday he is "100 percent" certain that his investigation into attacks on Libyan protesters will lead to crimes against humanity charges against the regime of Libyan ruler Moammar Gadhafi.

Gadhafi's crackdown on anti-regime protests that broke out last month has been the most violent against any of the anti-government uprisings across the Middle East.

...


Moreno-Ocampo said his team is looking into six incidents of "massive shooting of civilians" by security forces in Tripoli, Benghazi and other Libyan cities.

...


The investigation was launched with unprecedented speed, which the prosecutor attributed to technology, which has brought images of Libyan violence to the world.

"Technology is reducing the distance between people in Libya and people in the (rest of the) world," the Argentine prosecutor said. "Journalists showing the killing of civilians in Libya created this willingness to intervene."<[/b>


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/24/international-court-expects-libya-prosecution_n_840076.html

[pinboy3niner]

32. Recommended reading ~ The Challenge of Libya: Where Will it End?

Very good article from The Economist posted in GD by tekisui:

The Challenge of Libya: Where Will it End?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x731709

[pinboy3niner]

33. Clarity on Libya eludes some potential 2012 GOP presidential candidates

WaPo Columnist Dan Balz finds potential GOP contenders have lots of criticism, no answers:

Clarity on Libya eludes some potential 2012 GOP presidential candidates


By Dan Balz, Thursday, March 24, 11:55 AM


Prospective Republicans presidential candidates have pounded President Obama this week over his handling of the war in Libya, but there is as much lack of clarity in some of their critiques as they claim exists in the administration’s policy.

...


The 2012 contenders want Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi out. They want the United States to lead. They are skeptical of the role of the United Nations and the Arab League. They want no protracted engagement. But few have offered anything approaching an exit strategy.

Former House speaker Newt Gingrich has been accused of flip-flopping on the wisdom of military intervention, which he says is a misreading of what he said and when he said it. Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney supports the current mission while saying the president has no coherent foreign policy in Libya or elsewhere. But he hasn’t said explicitly that he would have moved unilaterally with military action or what that would have involved.

Former Minnesota governor Tim Pawlenty says the decision to implement a no-fly zone may have come too late to save rebel forces from defeat, but he, too, has had little else to say. Former Alaska governor Sarah Palin wants a quick and decisive victory and an equally quick withdrawal. Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour, unlike the others, has been reluctant to criticize the president — or praise him for that matter — since the mission began, but earlier harbored doubts about military intervention.



...


The Republicans sound more hawkish than the president. They appear far more enthusiastic than Obama about the unilateral use of military force. But like the president, they are grappling with a conflict and conditions that make certitude difficult, and their statements show it.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clarity-on-libya-eludes-some-potential-2012-gop-presidential-candidates/2011/03/24/ABtcLYPB_story.html

[pinboy3niner]

34. Rebels kill 30 govt snipers in Misrata, reach the center of town, spokesman tells Reuters nt

[happyslug]

64. This makes no sense, you NEVER have 30 snipers in one place

Now, it is rare to take any snipers prisoners (During WWII, General Bradly issued an order saying he did NOT want to hear of any snipers being taken prisoners) but 30 in one spot? 30 in one action? Sounds more like the rebels engaged Gaddafi's troops and killed 30 of them, and then called them all Snipers. That would happen in any combat situation.

[pinboy3niner]

67. It wasn't one spot or one action

Earlier reports indicated that after govt tanks were destroyed or driven out of the town the opposition was working to root out the snipers that continued to operate from various positions. That was an ongoing effort that didn't happen all at once.

I agree--it would make no sense to have 30 snipers in one place. This obviously wasn't described as well as it could have been.

[tabatha]

72. Gaddafi has sent out lots of snipers

to infiltrate the towns. In fact two of them, women, were from Colombia.

Don't you remember he said he would be going from house to house, room to room, closet to closet. That would take 30+ people.

[happyslug]

113. But you do NOT go "house to house, room to room, closet to closet." with snipers

Snipers are like snakes, there are ambush killer, they wait an lay. They do move from place to place, but you do not use snipers to fight "house to house, room to room, closet to closet". That is the job of Infantry (Who man have snipers in the infantry unit, but as an over-watch function not to do the actual "house to house, room to room, closet to closet" cleaning.

As to the Columbian female snipers, a two person sniper team is the standard is most armies (one the actual sniper, the other is the spotter and Over-watch of the sniper). Thus the women may be a sniper team (Soviet women were know snipers during WWII) but my objection was the "30 snipers" in one place. That makes no military sense, a 30 man platoon yes, 30 snipers in one location no.

If you do not know watch I mean by "Over-watch" go to the Wikipedia site on "Over-watch" below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overwatch

[tabatha]

116. Yes, I agree 30 in one place is a bit much.

Can people do double-duty? I don't know.

[pinboy3niner]

35. Who's Backing Up Obama on Libya?

The Atlantic provides "a small, incomplete list of lawmakers who are praising Obama without the heavy qualifications that have accompanied other statements of partial support":

•House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) released a written statement yesterday outlining support for the no-fly zone and international partnership, noting that "U.S. participation is strengthened by the President's continued consultation with Congress."

•Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) held a conference call with reporters, along with two Democratic Senate colleagues yesterday, to speak out in support of the president. "It is reminiscent of George Herbert Walker's effort before our involvement in Kuwait where he lined up support across the board and through the United Nations before any military action was commenced," Durbin said, according to a transcript.

•Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin (D-Mich.) participated in Wednesday's conference call, too. Unlike his House counterpart Smith, Levin offered the president his full backing. "He has put the ducks in a row before he decided that the United States should take the lead for a short period of time to do what only we could do," Levin said, according to a transcript.

•Sen. Jack Reed (D-R.I.), another Armed Services Committee Democrat, also participated in the call yesterday. "I think the president moved very thoughtfully and very deliberately to assemble a multinational coalition. Had he not done so, a unilateral action from the United States would have left us with a significant military burden and a significant financial burden," Reed said, according to a transcript.

•Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.) offered full support for the strikes at a news conference in San Francisco: "This isn't America versus Libya," Boxer said, according to the San Francisco Chronicle. "This is an extraordinary achievement by the president and our secretary of state to get the world to come together" in a humanitarian crisis.

•Rep. Ed Markey (D-Mass.) issued a statement of support. "The current government of Libya has lost all legitimacy. Left unchecked, Gaddafi will commit unspeakable brutalities against his own people. We will need to continuously monitor Gaddafi's responses to the pressure brought by the international coalition and adjust the strategy accordingly," Markey said.

•Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.) praised the mission and called for congressional unity. From Nola.com: "'We must continue our diplomatic efforts with the Arab League and our NATO allies to ensure the enforcement of this resolution,' Landrieu said. 'We must also unite across parties and chambers to ensure the administration has the support it needs to effectively end Gadhafi's tyranny and persecution.'"

•Rep. Cedric Richmond (D-La.) praised "President Obama for working closely with our international allies and the U.N. to respond to a potential grave humanitarian threat in Libya," Nola.com reports.

•Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.) offered support while touring a children's hospital in Omaha yesterday. "I support the fact that the U.S. doesn't have to be in the lead to do this," Nelson said, according to the Omaha World-Herald.


Who's Backing Up Obama on Libya?
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/03/whos-backing-up-obama-on-libya/72975/

[Waiting For Everyman]

36. You've got to see this: vid from a truck in G convoy to Benghazi that coalition bombed 1st night

Just uploaded to youtube today with no accompanying description. I'd guess it might've come from a captured cell phone. @ 12 minutes long, the convoy starts moving at @ 4 minutes in.

It's like being in the convoy that the coalition kept from destroying Benghazi on the first night of attacks. BIG, really big, lots of vehicles. Wow.

:wow:

I found it from a tweet just now:

Benghazidoc Benghazidoc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWwOeZqz6M Gaddafi Caravan on the way to attack Benghazi last w/e
1 hour ago

[bobbolink]

48. That is quite something. So this is a Ghaddoufous convoy?

I got a little mixed up, the camera was jogging around so much.

Thank you for posting this... it makes their bravery stand out even more! I really don't know that I could have hung in this long...

[Waiting For Everyman]

53. Yes, it's the one the coalition bombed the first night,

which was sent to level Benghazi. Now I see why the people were celebrating so much, and thanking the West so much. I had no idea the convoy was THAT big.

That many vehicles were definitely not sent just to intimidate the city, they were sent to destroy it. There's not doubt of that, looking at it.

ps... I found a short clip of it posted separately on youtube, it says the video was "obtained from a dead Gaddafi unit's mobile phone".

[pinboy3niner]

57. Some compared it to the massacre of Iraqi forces retreating from Kuwait

But in this case, the Gaddafi forces leaving Benghazi were not withdrawing from fighting--they were headed to Adjabiyah, where fierce fighting (and shelling of the civilian population) was continuing.

As to other suggestions that--because of the first French airstrikes outside Benghazi, these Gaddafi forces intended to defect--it has been pointed out elsewhere that there have been very few defections of Gaddafi's troops since the strikes began.

I haven't had a chance to look at the video yet, but I hope to do that soon. Thanks for posting it!

[Waiting For Everyman]

58. I had no idea it was THAT big. If some of that diverted to Ajdabiah,

no wonder that town had such a hard time this past week.

If that whole confoy had gotten to Benghazi, there really would've been huge number of casualties. Hundreds of thousands very likely.

[Iterate]

120. As I recall now, reporters

who had arrived on the scene told of the turrets in the front of the column pointing north and those in the back of the column pointing south. I can't remember which network though -only a couple of days ago but hundreds and hundreds of reports and videos. I should stick to history books.

[pinboy3niner]

128. That's normal procedure for a military unit on the move

Whether Armor or Infantry, a military unit moving in column has to be prepared for attack from any direction. In the Infantry, the men at the rear of the column would be watching behind them and others would act as flank security.

I don't have Armor experience, but I believe it would be normal for tanks moving in a column to have their guns pointed in different directions to be able to react quickly to an attack from any direction.

And don't be so self-disparaging. Your knowledge of history, analytical mind and other expertise enable you to make valuable contributions here, and we're glad to have you! :toast:

[bobbolink]

59. wow... that was quite a catch to find that phone ...I'm assuming it was buried in rubble.

It sounds like the bombings, much as it really upsets me to see it, came just in time.

I am upset that there weren't other options that could have been used, but seeing what was headed their way..... Oh God!

I wish that these DUers who are so bent on trying to destroy me today would be willing to actually look at this reality!

Thank you!

[Waiting For Everyman]

61. I posted it in Political Video and GD so more people might see it, but

nobody seems interested. That's about all I can do.

I admire your standing up for the Libyans, Bobbo. :hi: Don't let it get you down.

[bobbolink]

65. I'm sure its being watched... I think people are afraid of taking an unpopular stand, and others are

not comfortable with challenging their knee-jerk reactions.

Thank you so much for your kind words... this is really taking a chunk out of me, so your admonision not to let it "get me down" is a day late and a dollar short. ~~gigglesnort~~

You'd think, after years of espousing the very unpopular cause of poverty and homelessness, that I wouldn't be bothed by peoples' shit, but it simply doesn't work that way. I am able to care about people I don't know.. the Egyptians, the Libyans, and other poor and homeless people I have never met, because I was created as a sensitive person. I'm simply not willing to kill off that part of me, even if I could... it makes me what I am, even if it also creates suffering.

I really think we are going to have to find a way to have an indepth discussion of the REsponsibility what-ever-it-is thingie that pinboy or josh posted.

Its really a DAMNED good thing I am not confused.

Do you admire my confusion, too? :silly: :pals:

[Waiting For Everyman]

70. You're right, "watched" is what counts.

I hadn't thought of that, I mean in the context of how unpopular this subject is.

Yup, "confused" is A-ok, lol. :thumbsup:

[bobbolink]

74. Exactly. The denial is pretty heavy, and the facts sometimes have to seep in slowly.

Also.. consider this... I remember my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days, and being in Berkeley, reading the underground newspapers and going to teach ins and learning what my country was really up to.

I got into such a blue funk.....

I think people instinctively know that if they were to really delve into this, it would shake some of their cherished convictions, and make them extremely uncomfortable... at least for a while. It is taking our simple ideal... that war is bad.... and making us look at the fuzzy gray areas.

I know I have suffered doing that this last week, and I know others have, too. I don't think its something that most people will do easily.

the other thing... I had friends who immmigrated from what was then Czechoslovakia when the communists were in control. They hated it, but it was overpowering. This friend told me that a friend of his said, "If we kick at that wall, we will only break bones in our foot. But if every day we piss on that wall......" ^_^

So, little by little we are pissing on the wall of denial.

Just stand back.. :rofl:

:pals:

[pinboy3niner]

88. GREAT Czech story, Bobbo! ROFL!

:rofl: I love it!

While visiting Vietnam in the 90's I noticed that a lot of government buildings in Ho chi Minh City (which the locals still insist on calling 'Saigon') had warning signs stenciled in red every 10 or 15 feet on their exterior walls, complete with a big red exclamation point.

When I asked a Vietnamese friend what the signs said, I was told they were emphatic warnings: "NO PEE, NO PEE, NO PEE!" And I never saw a government building there when someone WASN'T peeing on the wall. :rofl:

[Amonester]

140. Thank you, Bobbolink, keep it up. Don't let anyone take you down.

> I was created as a sensitive person

Same here, and the suffering it creates doesn't matter when I see how much more struggle these brave human beings have to go through.

You are not alone, even if sometimes it seems like it. I come here when I can.

:yourock:

[Raksha]

90. I just looked at it, but then I've been on your side all along anyway.

Watching that video and understanding what it means only confirmed me in my earlier opinion. NO WAY in bloody hell could I have stood by and watched if that convoy had reached its destination and carried out its mission.

[CJvR]

89. Very intresting film.

I have to say Im surprised at the large number of civilian vehicles invlolved on the Gaddafi side. And the large number of improvised Technicals, the regular army should hardly need stuff like that. Perhaps it is mercenaries and tribal militia. They sure look as if they are on a looting spree...

[pinboy3niner]

91. Both sides are using civilian vehicles for combat...

...and for transporting fighters.

Many media stories on the destruction of this convoy reported "civilian" vehicles destroyed without any mention that they were in military use at the time. The comments on these stories indicated that many people interpreted this to mean that the strikes also killed civilians who happened to be on the same road as the convoy.

[Waiting For Everyman]

105. I read last night that Gaddafi was desperately trying to get troop transport for a long while

and it was almost approved when the Egyptian protests broke out, and the State Dept. nixed it. Seeing this video now with all the pickup trucks and whatnot, I can see why Gaddafi wanted it so badly.

Didn't save the link, but seeing this today, I wish I had.

I guess maybe it could be said then, that the Egyptian protesters helped save Libyan lives, because if Gaddafi had gotten that transport he would've been to Benghazi faster.

[bobbolink]

118. Holy cow... so many pieces fitting together. Thanks!

[CJvR]

135. He has...

...over 1000 BMP-1, BTR-50 & OT-62/64 as well as almost 1000 armored cars.

Im just surprised his premier units are resorting to improvised transport and hastely converted cars when they should have better stuff available. Perhaps the revolt out West hit the army depots harder than it seemed at first.

[pinboy3niner]

37. North Korea Suggests Libya Should Have Kept A-Bombs

Source: New York Times



North Korea Suggests Libya Should Have Kept A-Bombs


By MARK McDONALD

Published: March 24, 2011


SEOUL, South Korea — A North Korean statement that Libya’s dismantling of its nuclear weapons program had made it vulnerable to military intervention by the West is being seen by analysts as an ominous reinforcement of the North’s refusal to end its own nuclear program.

North Korea’s official news agency carried comments this week from a Foreign Ministry official decrying the air assault on Libyan government forces and suggesting that Libya had been duped in 2003 when it abandoned its nuclear program in exchange for promises of aid and improved relations with the West.

Calling the West’s bargain with Libya “an invasion tactic to disarm the country,” the official said it amounted to a bait and switch. “The Libyan crisis is teaching the international community a grave lesson,” the official was quoted as saying on Tuesday, proclaiming that North Korea’s “songun” ideology of a powerful military was “proper in a thousand ways” and the only guarantor of peace on the Korean Peninsula.

As they have watched the attacks in Libya this week senior North Korean leaders “must feel alarmed, but also deeply satisfied with themselves,” said Ruediger Frank, an adjunct professor at Korea University and the University of North Korean Studies, writing on the Web site 38 North. North Korea is believed to have 8 to 12 nuclear weapons and last year disclosed a new uranium-enrichment facility.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/world/asia/25korea.html

[bobbolink]

50. Maybe Ghaddoufous could join his pal in N. Korea.

:puke:

[pinboy3niner]

38. ROFLMAO! Don't miss "Star Trek Diplomacy" toon posted by n2doc:

Toon: Star Trek Diplomacy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x730378






__________________________________

[pinboy3niner]

39. Misrata: At least 109 killed, more than 1,300 wounded in a week of attacks by govt forces

At least 109 people have been killed in the rebel-held city of Misurata and more than 1,300 wounded in a week of attacks by forces loyal to Gaddafi, a doctor in the city told AFP news agency. The doctor working in Misurata's state hospital said on condition of anonymity:

Attacks by Gaddafi forces since last Friday have killed 109 people and wounded 1,300 others, 81 of whom are in serious condition.

On Thursday alone "four martyrs fell because of sniper fire," he added.

8:21pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-24

[pinboy3niner]

40. Defense Secretary Gates: Syria should follow example of Egypt in dealing w/ protests

US defense secretary Robert Gates has said that Syria should follow the example of Egypt in the face of popular protests. Reuters reports from Tel Aviv, where Gates is visiting:

"I would say that what the Syrian government is confronting is in fact the same challenge that faces so many governments across the region, and that is the unmet political and economic grievances of their people," Gates said during a visit to Israel. "Some of them are dealing with it better than others. I've just come from Egypt, where the Egyptian army stood on the sidelines and allowed people to demonstrate and in fact empowered a revolution. The Syrians might take a lesson from that," he told reporters.

6pm:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/24/libya-crisis-live-updates

[pinboy3niner]

41. BREAKING, CNN: NATO will take over Libya operation

"Deal 'in principle' on Nato & Libya"

"Officials tell CNN NATO will take over operation"

Handover reportedly could occur Sunday.

[pinboy3niner]

42. Reuters: Turkish FM says transfer to NATO will happen within one or two days nt

[pinboy3niner]

43. Turkish FM quote:

Command of military operations in Libya will be transferred from the US to Nato within a day or two, Reuters is quoting the Turkish foreign minister Ahmet Davutoglu as saying:

"Compromise has been reached in principle in a very short time," Davutoglu told reporters. "The operation will be handed over to Nato completely."

He said this would happen as soon as possible, within one or two days. Agreement had been reached in a teleconference with his counterparts from the United States, France and Britain.

A formal statement from Nato is expected within the next hour.


6.49pm:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/24/libya-crisis-live-updates

[tabatha]

52. Good news.

[al bupp]

54. Meaning the coalition may have that long to bomb Gaddafi's ground forces /eom

[pinboy3niner]

66. CNN now reporting "hiccups" in the deal (Turkey wants quicker handover)

Reps of NATO members are meeting at NATO HQ in Brussels and hoped to make an announcement soon--but it looks like their meetings are going to be going on longer due to objections from Turkey on the handover timetable.

[tabatha]

76. So will they spend time deliberating until the handover time?

[pinboy3niner]

78. One report said they don't expect to finish discussions tonight

Looks like it may involve a little more than the question of timing, but that seems to be Turkey's major objection. They are reportedly unhappy with the "terms" of the handover.

I don't really understand it. Turkey wants handover sooner--but its objections may delay it? :wtf:

[bobbolink]

56. That certainly sounds good. I will HOPE!

[pinboy3niner]

44. Six F-16’s from the Netherlands have arrived on Sardinia to do arms embargo patrols

Six F-16’s from the Netherlands have arrived on the Italian island of Sardinia. The jets will be patrolling the Mediterranean to enforce the arms-embargo against Libya. They will not take part in combat missions.

9:05pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-24

[pinboy3niner]

45. BREAKING: UN Sec. Gen.: No sign of Libya ceasefire, Gaddafi troops still attacking civilians

CNN live report from the UN. Secretary General Ban ki-Moon made the remarks in a report to the Security Council.

[pinboy3niner]

46. Libya -- It Can Work

Stephen Herrington.The Monday Morning Economist
Posted: March 24, 2011 02:39 PM


Libya -- It Can Work


Hand-wringing is the new American pastime, that and union busting. The commentariat has just gone addled on Libya. Congress should have been consulted, there should be an exit plan, there's no well-defined mission, there's no plan for who will run a liberated Libya. There were no plans for Tunisia or Egypt either. No one suspected the entire Middle East would be lit up like a forest fire in the year 2011, although I'm sure there will be a few psychics stepping up to having predicted it.

...


If successful, the "no-fly" campaign will usher in the hard part, where air force is useless and the ground has been cleared of the advantages of armored vehicles and artillery. It will be more like Rwanda. Then the successful prosecution of battle will depend on the courage and discipline of men with rifles, grenades and bayonets. Discipline is a strong adversary, but will to freedom is stronger and a discipline of its own.

The UN has lifted the Libyan arms embargo for the rebels, only. Given the no-fly cover and arms and supply denied to Gaddafi, the rebels will win in due time. It's a classic formula for military success. Hopefully the rebels will not then massacre Gaddafi supporters. Rebellion ain't easy.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-herrington/libya-it-can-work_b_839909.html

[bobbolink]

79. "Discipline is a strong adversary, but will to freedom is stronger and a discipline of its own."

That is what we are hoping and praying for! These people have heart, so if I was a betting person, I would definitely be betting on them!

"Hopefully the rebels will not then massacre Gaddafi supporters."

I strongly doubt it. I think they want trials.

[Iterate]

143. A short quote

"No one suspected the entire Middle East would be lit up like a forest fire in the year 2011, although I'm sure there will be a few psychics stepping up to having predicted it."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-herrington/libya-it-can-work_b_839909.html

I have a book on my shelf called "Islam Inflamed". It didn't predict the year 2011, but I looked at it again a few days ago and saw nearly every big recent event represented in it in some fashion, mainly because of a good understanding of the individual national dynamics. It says nothing about NFZs or twitter or smart bombs, no detailed predictions, but that's forgivable because it was written in 1957.

[pinboy3niner]

47. SYRIA (CNN): # of protesters killed by sec. forces reported as dozens to "upward of 100" nt

[pinboy3niner]

51. UN Sec. Gen: Reps of Gaddafi regime and opposition will attend an AU mtg tomorrow

Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary general, says representatives of Gaddafi's regime and the Libyan opposition will both attend an African Union meeting in Addis Ababa tomorrow.

The emergency meeting of the AU was called by Uganda to discuss the situation in Libya, and is part of an effort to reach a cease-fire.


7.40pm:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/24/libya-crisis-live-updates

[pinboy3niner]

60. The Guardian reports on the Pentagon briefing:

My colleague Ewen MacAskill is watching a briefing going on at the Pentagon from Vice-Admiral Bill Gortney – and the message of the day is to accentuate the limited nature of the US involvement in the action against Libya.

Gortney says 75% of combat missions over Libya are now being flown by non-US coalition members, and that of the 350 planes involved, only half are American.

Gortney also says the US will still supply "interdiction strike packages" – Pentagon speak for planes with missiles that can shoot things down.


8.09pm:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/24/libya-crisis-live-updates

[pinboy3niner]

63. MORE on UN Sec. General's report to the Security Council on Libya:

Libyan government troops are disregarding a United Nations ceasefire order despite heavy bombing of Col Gaddafi's forces by an international coalition, Ban Ki-moon told the Security Council.

Reporting to the council on implementation of a resolution authorizing the use of force to end the onslaught against armed rebels, the UN secretary general said the Libyan government had not "taken steps to carry out their obligations".

The UN chief said that human rights abuses continued in Libya and that "those responsible for crimes against their people will be held accountable".

He told the UN headquarters in New York:

Libyan authorities have repeatedly claimed they have instituted a ceasefire.

We see no evidence that that is the case. On the contrary, fierce battles have continued.

We continue to have serious concerns about protection of civilians.

I expect the international community to continue to exercise full diligence in avoiding civilian casualties and collateral damage.

20.05:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html

[pinboy3niner]

68. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 11 PM THURSDAY, MARCH 24

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[pinboy3niner]

69. AJE report: Coalition air campaign against Libya continues

Al Jazeera's Alan Fisher with the latest from Libya:

Coalition air campaign against Libya continues (2:15):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGjRipDXnIg&feature=player_embedded

The video includes remarks by Vice Admiral Rinaldo Veri, Allied Naval Coordinator, on enforcement of the naval arms embargo, and shows footage of captured Gaddafi soldiers and mercenaries being held at a prison in Benghazi.

At the prison, one captured soldier says they were forced to fight: "If anyone refused to fight they said they'd kill them or burn them alive."

[pinboy3niner]

73. The Guardian's summary of the most recent news:

• Rebels in Misrata said they killed 30 government snipers and liberated the port from forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, potentially opening up an aid lifeline to the besieged city

• A French fighter jet attacked and destroyed a Libyan military aircraft after it landed at Misrata air force base

• Objections by Turkey appear to have held up an agreement on Nato taking over operational control of military action against the Gaddafi regime from the US

• Syrian army units are reported to have withdrawn from the centre of Deraa after a day of violence left as many as 100 protesters dead in the city

• Yemen's president Ali Abdullah Saleh appeared on television and pledged to transfer power "peacefully," without giving details. His offer was rejected by leaders of Yemen's protest movement

• British foreign secretary William Hague urged all British citizens to leave Yemen "without delay" and has reduced the British embassy in Sana'a to a core staff


9.15pm:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/24/libya-crisis-live-updates

[tabatha]

75. Wow, the rebels in Misrata have stuck it out.

That city has been through hell.

[pinboy3niner]

80. BREAKING, CNN: Agreement reached on NFZ handover to NATO nt

[tabatha]

81. Great! Thanks for the news.

[pinboy3niner]

83. NATO Sec-Gen: It will be NATO operation but "will include contributing partners" nt

[bobbolink]

Well, that is certainly going to be disappointing for our detractors.

:rofl:

[pinboy3niner]

85. HEADS-UP: CNN will have Sec. Clinton speaking from the State Dept soon

CNN has really been doing the most coverage of Libya today. They've been on top of all the breaking news.

[tabatha]

86. It could not have been a very big bomb if they cold not find it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O5KJavfiQo

[pinboy3niner]

92. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 12:45 AM FRIDAY, MARCH 25

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[pinboy3niner]

93. NATO countries to enforce Libya no-fly zone

Source: Al Jazeera

NATO countries to enforce Libya no-fly zone


Secretary-general says the military alliance's 28 countries have agreed to enforce no-fly zone "to protect civilians".


Last Modified: 24 Mar 2011 22:27


NATO countries have agreed to enforce a no-fly zone in Libya "to protect civilians" against Muammar Gaddafi's forces, Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen told reporters.

He said the military alliance's mandate did not go beyond the no-fly zone but NATO could also act in self-defence.

He appeared to contradict an earlier statement by Ahmet Davutoglu, Turkey's foreign minister, that NATO would take command of all coalition military operations in Libya.

"At this moment, there will still be a coalition operation and a NATO operation," Rasmussen said, adding that talks were continuing on possibly giving NATO a wider role.


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/2011324221036894697.html

[pinboy3niner]

94. U.N. Secretary General Expresses New Alarm Over Libya Strife

Source: New York Times

U.N. Secretary General Expresses New Alarm Over Libya Strife

By DAN BILEFSKY
Published: March 24, 2011


UNITED NATIONS — Secretary General Ban Ki-moon expressed deep concern Thursday about a possible humanitarian crisis in Libya despite Security Council steps to isolate and punish Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s forces, which have been ignoring warnings to stop a military campaign to crush a rebel movement seeking to end his long rule.

Mr. Ban said a new wave of up to 250,000 refugees and migrants could be displaced by the fighting in Libya, and said he was worried “about the protection of civilians, abuses of human rights and violations of international humanitarian law and the access of civilian populations to basic commodities and services in areas currently under siege.”

...


He said the United Nations had been struggling to get access to monitor the welfare of civilians and had received reports of arrests and disappearances among the civilian population. United Nations experts have reported hundreds of disappearances over the past few months and have expressed fears that those who have disappeared are being tortured or executed.

Mr. Ban also expressed fears of a food shortage, noting that the World Food Programme had received reports that food prices in Libya were rising sharply — with the price of flour, for example, doubling in recent weeks.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/world/africa/25nations.html

[pinboy3niner]

95. UAE has provided 12 warplanes to enforce NFZ

The United Arab Emirates has contributed 12 warplanes to the international no-fly zone over Libya, AFP news agency quotes a US official as saying.


12:32am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-25

[bobbolink]

100. What the bloody hell???? There is nothing in LBN at all about any of this...

about Hillary's speech, about the UAE joining, about Qatar, about Ham's report..?

IS there a blackout on this on LBN???

[pinboy3niner]

96. Libya's Civilians Suffer In Bloody Stalemate

Source: Huffington Post

David Wood
HuffPost Reporting


Libya's Civilians Suffer In Bloody Stalemate

Posted: 03/24/11 05:59 PM


WASHINGTON -- Libya’s civilians, already suffering shortages of food, water and power, are being battered by Muammar Gaddafi’s military forces in the country's west despite the military intervention of a U.S.-led coalition intended to protect civilians.

...


White House officials tried to clear up the confusion Thursday, saying that while the United States hopes that Gaddafi steps down, it will not use force to make that happen. “We are not engaged in militarily-driven regime change,’’ White House spokesman Jay Carney said.

...


U.S. and international aid officials said they are stockpiling relief supplies, but are powerless to act in the current circumstances or even to draw up plans to coordinate the hundreds of governmental and private aid organizations that would pour into Libya if given the chance. Since the military operation was put together hurriedly late last week, there is no contingency plan for an eventual transition from purely military operations to humanitarian relief, experts said.

...


Meanwhile, relief officials said, the plight of Libya’s civilians -- especially those in the western cities under Gaddafi’s control -- is worsening dramatically, with many areas without water, power or phone service and growing shortages of food and medical care. Many doctors and nurses in Libya were foreigners who have fled since the unrest began more than a month ago, aid officials said. Those remaining at Misurata’s hospital were evacuated along with their patients Thursday after Libyan tanks began firing in the neighborhood.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/24/libya-civilians-suffer-in-bloody-stalemate_n_840337.html

[MedleyMisty]

97. I'm hearing that General Ham is getting choked up

talking about how they don't want to hit civilians.


https://twitter.com/USAfricaCommand

USAfricaCommand

Gen Ham: I'm sorry if I'm a little emotional about this-People killing civilians are current Libya regime; people protecting are UN #AFRICOM

More instances than I can think of where pilots did not attack legit targets due to concern for civilian casualties #AFRICOM 's General Ham

Libya Pentagon briefing: Not attacking inside cities because of collateral damage concerns - harming the people we vowed to protect #AFRICOM

Our general is crying because he doesn't want to kill civilians but that also means avoiding legitimate targets. Yes, this is just like Iraq.

[tabatha]

98. deleted

[bobbolink]

99. thank you for posting that... I stepped away from the screen a bit too soon.

I wish I could have seen that... maybe it will be re-played later.

Wouldn't it be incredible, MM, if this country has actually learned something and is working to do things in a much better way?

My head is swirling.. thanks again for posting this!

:hugs:

[pinboy3niner]

101. Thanks for posting that

As AFRICOM commander, Gen. Ham normally is involved in operations that are far removed from the military's combat role:

Libya Crisis Thrusts U.S. Africa Command Into Leadership Role
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/23/world/africa/23command.html

[pinboy3niner]

102. The lives of the Libyans are getting "harder by the day"

Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught, in Tripoli, says the lives of the Libyans are getting "harder by the day" as many petrol stations and shops are shut and many people stay at home because they fear airstrikes.


1:13am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-25

[bobbolink]

104. It sounds like medical supplies and some doctors are on the way.

I haven't heard about shipments of food, water and fuel.

[tabatha]

103. Libya: Gaddafi loyalists in Ajdabiya 'seeking to surrender'

A rebel commander, former Libyan air force colonel Ahmed Omar Bani, told journalists in his first new conference that local mullahs in the contested town of Ajdabiya had been used to mediate talks.

Gaddafi loyalists have been under pressure after they have been targeted by accurate coalition air strikes over the last six days outside the town that stands at a junction on the road to Benghazi in the east of the country.

"Some of the Ajdabiya militias have asked to surrender to be left alone and to go back home," said Col Bani, who was dressed in military uniform. "We are trying to negotiate with these people in Ajdabiya because we are almost sure that they have lost contact with their headquarters," he added.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8404944/Libya-Gaddafi-loyalists-in-Ajdabiya-seeking-to-surrender.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/6a3gfzo

[pinboy3niner]

109. LINK to TABATHA'S OP on this story:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x734507

Whenever possible, I try to link to a DUer's OP (which will provide the original source link). That way, the OP gets some traffic and we have an opportunity to comment and rec there. :)

[tabatha]

112. Ok, thanks!

[Waiting For Everyman]

107. Reuters: Gaddafi's entourage sends out secret peace feelers

@Reuters
Gaddafi's entourage sends out secret peace feelers http://t.co/94fpUvz
20 minutes ago

[pinboy3niner]

108. Setback for Nicolas Sarkozy as Nato wins command of Libyan campaign

Source: The Guardian


Setback for Nicolas Sarkozy as Nato wins command of Libyan campaign


French president sees hopes of establishing Anglo-French military command dashed as Britain, the US and Turkey win battle to put Nato in charge


Nicolas Sarkozy has been on something of a high in recent weeks as he joined forces with David Cameron to push for military action against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.

But the hyperactive president of France, who hopes that his decisive action will help revive his political fortunes ahead of next year's election, has suffered a major setback.

France, which had hoped to establish a joint Anglo-French military command of the campaign against Libya, has been forced to accept that Nato will take complete control of military operations. As the Guardian reported on Wednesday, a two-tier structure will be established as the allies comply with Barack Obama's wish that the US should relinquish its leadership of the campaign.

...


This is a major setback for Sarkozy who had wanted to establish an Anglo-French command to run the military campaign. This is what a senior Whitehall source told Nick Hopkins, our defence and security correspondent, earlier this week:

The French want to run this jointly with Britain. That is their preference. It is not our preference. We want Nato to deal with this because Nato has the right experience in dealing with multinational teams.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/wintour-and-watt/2011/mar/24/libya-nato

[bobbolink]

110. Ohhhhh, Sarkozy lost out. I bet I know someone who's peeing in her pants right now...

:evilgrin:

[pinboy3niner]

111. UPDATE (ROFLMAO!)

Now that a deal is almost signed let's give another airing to a marvellous description of the negotiations on the military command structure. This is what one veteran observer told me on Tuesday:

It's a bit like a barn dance. Half of the people can't dance, a couple are drunk and then there's always the characters at the back with their hands up various skirts.

9.45pm

[pinboy3niner]

119. Misurata hospital damaged in fighting (with VIDEO)

Source: The Telegraph


Misurata hospital damaged in fighting


Amateur footage inside an abandoned medical facility in Misurata



Broken glass and wrecked furniture can be seen in the footage after pro-Gaddafi tanks lay siege to the city of Misurata despite coalition air strikes.

A huge hole has been blown in one wall of the facility and gunfire can be heard in the background.

The coalition did manage to destroy tanks outside Misurata but appear to have pulled back from targets within the city, perhaps to avoid civilian casualties in line with the policy explained by Rear Admiral Gerard Hueber, the US chief of staff for the mission who said: "Our mission here is to protect the civilian populace and we choose our targets and plan our actions with that as a top priority."


VIDEO (0:46):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/

(CLICK on the image or text to the right of the main story--the text reads, "Misurata hospital damaged in fighting.")

[pinboy3niner]

122. Libya rebels arrest man suspected of Yvonne Fletcher murder 27 years ago

Source: The Guardian

Libya rebels arrest man suspected of Yvonne Fletcher murder 27 years ago


Campaigners hope Omar Ahmed Sodani – who worked in London embassy at time of shooting – will face trial in UK


Nicholas Watt The Guardian, Friday 25 March 2011

____________________________________________________________________________


PC Yvonne Fletcher, who was shot outside the Libyan embassy in London in April 1984 and died shortly after. Photograph: PA


The man suspected of murdering PC Yvonne Fletcher outside the Libyan embassy in London in 1984 has been arrested by rebel forces in the country and is in custody in the rebel stronghold of Benghazi.

...


Sodani, a prominent figure in Muammar Gaddafi's regime who acknowledges that he was working in the embassy at the time of the shooting, insisted he had not killed 25-year-old Fletcher.

...


Fletcher was helping to control a small demonstration outside the embassy in St James's Square on 17 April 1984 when shots were fired from the first floor of the building at the protestors. She was shot in the stomach and died in hospital.

Armed police surrounded the embassy in an 11-day siege. Gaddafi responded by sending forces to surround the British embassy in Tripoli. The sieges ended when staff in both embassies were allowed to leave. Britain broke off diplomatic relations with Libya. Libyan embassy staff, who were expelled from Britain, claimed diplomatic immunity which meant they could not be questioned by police. Nobody has faced justice for the shooting.


MORE DETAILS at link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/25/libya-rebels-yvonne-fletcher-murder

[Waiting For Everyman]

125. Wow.

This will get interesting, no doubt.

[joshcryer]

126. Posted a weird presser about this yesterday where his release was demanded.

Very interesting case.

[pinboy3niner]

130. The details yesterday were both weird and sketchy

As reported then, it sounded like their fingering of this guy could well be bogus. The new details reported show that there seems to be valid justification for their suspicions of Sodani. Getting VERY interesting now.

:hi:

[Iterate]

144. Oh, that's the case I posted about in post #84

So it looks as if the NTC will be making its first little enemy, all on its own.

You guys are posting faster than I can read - and that's a good thing. Thanks.

[Waiting For Everyman]

123. Gaddafi destroyed the last food market in Misurata.

@Libya_United Libya_Awake_United
#Gaddafi forces bombing #Misurata food market, the only remaining food source http://t.co/0TmRnNe
29 minutes ago

[tabatha]

124. Damn. I hope the coalition does something about them.

[Waiting For Everyman]

129. I saw in the tweets this morning that supplies by boat arranged by Mo Nabbous

did arrive at the harbor in Misurata as of today, but hadn't been able to dock because of Gaddafi's naval forces. I hope it got in and unloaded by now, or hopefully will soon.

[tabatha]

132. Thanks for your updates on this page too

It is a huge effort by pinboy3niner and joshcryer.

[kenny blankenship]

131. I don't know how many lives they think they are saving by NOT taking out those tanks

They spare the tanks because they are in the city or just outside. Then the next day they come back and shell the hospital again. Hundreds of casualities in Misurata piling up because Gaddafy's tanks are left in tact.

If you looked out your front door and saw the regime's tanks rumbling up your street, firing their cannons and machineguns, wouldn't you go out the back door or window to get away? I doubt many civilians would be still in the structures surrounding the tanks. Rebel fighters would be in those buildings more likely. So if the tanks were attacked by carrier based fighters, civilian casualties if any would not be likely to be anywhere near as high as they are rising now, since we are allowing the tanks to go on firing and using the city as a shield.

[bobbolink]

138. That sounds logical, however, there is so much rabid opposition to this action, that

if the coalition killed civilians, it could put the kibosh on the whole thing. They can't risk losing the support of any of the countries now.

What a tightrope they are walking! Again, thanks for your input.. you are putting depth to this for me.

[highplainsdem]

127. K&R

[joshcryer]

133. Day 36 here (sorry for being late):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x735343

I have been working later this past week, it's screwed up my posting time.

[bobbolink]

139. Your job is ruining your life. ^_^

Glad to see you back!

[pinboy3niner]

141. There's only one answer--Fight Club!

TYLER DURDEN: You’re not your job. You’re not how much money you have in the bank. You’re not the car you drive. You’re not the contents of your wallet. You’re not your fucking khakis. You’re the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

:evilgrin:

[bobbolink]

142. fight, Fight, FIGHT!

Another goddamned war monger!

:pals: