Gaping holes in data from Japan distresses nuclear experts - LA Times

[flamingdem]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sci-japan-quake-secrecy-20110325,0,3610246.story

------snip
At the same time, they say, the depth of the crisis has clearly been growing, judging by releases of radioactivity that by some measures have reached half the level of those released in the Chernobyl accident of 1986, according to new analysis by European and American scientists.

The lack of information has led to growing frustration with Tokyo Electric Power Co., known as Tepco, and the Japanese government, which has parceled out information with little context, few details and giant blind spots. It has left the international community confused about what is happening and what could come next.

"Information sharing has not been in the culture of Tepco or the Japanese government," said Najmedin Meshkati, a USC engineering professor who has advised federal agencies on nuclear safety issues. "This issue is larger than one utility and one country. It is an international crisis."

Almost every step of the way, the problems at the Fukushima Daiichi plant have been understated by those in charge in Japan, outside experts say, leaving observers scrambling to analyze the situation as best they can from afar.

[Hannah Bell]

1. maybe they should hire a translator & look on the internet.

every single tepco presser is available live. data is handed out at every presser. it is available on the internet, some even in english.

[flamingdem]

3. Tepco doesn't give them the data they need for analysis nt

[Hannah Bell]

9. Which data would that be, do you know?

[flamingdem]

5. Example being how they had to reverse engineer data to know releases

as semi explained by the article. If you look around there is more on how the European labs had to calculate release amounts and isotopes since Tepco didn't
give information, or what they think is accurate information.

[Hannah Bell]

10. If they're able to do the calculations, they have the information they need

to do the calculations.

You think TEPCO should not only have given them the raw data, but also done their "analyses" for them? TEPCO is in the middle of an emergency.

[flamingdem]

15. Why would you defend a company accused of corruption? nt

[Hannah Bell]

21. why would you infer that i am "defending" tepco simply because,

having followed their press conferences from the beginning of the crisis, as well as their website & coverage in other japanese media, I say that they have regularly released data & information?

[kestrel91316]

8. Your ongoing unwavering support for the nuclear industry is duly noted.

[Hannah Bell]

11. Your unwavering inability to distinguish "support for the nuclear industry" from

"regard for factuality" is duly noted.

[Wilms]

19. The article notes a half a dozen people complaining about the lack of transparency.

I suppose they could be making stuff up, but I don't. Why do you?

[Hannah Bell]

20. really? here's my count. plus a lot of references to what anonymous "experts say"

Information sharing has not been in the culture of Tepco or the Japanese government," said Najmedin Meshkati, a USC engineering professor

Masaru Tamamoto, a professor of Asian and Middle Eastern studies at the University of Cambridge in Britain, said the handling of the crisis by Japanese government and corporate authorities is consistent with a culture that carefully guards information

"I have this image that they are forcing seawater through the piping somehow," said Frank N. von Hippel, a Princeton University physicist. Von Hippel said he wasn't quite sure how the repair efforts were accomplished, but added, "I have a lot of sympathy for these people."


If you see some other named sources, please post them. I see an engineering professor, an asian studies professor, & one apparently sympathetic physicist.

[Wilms]

22. Seems they're all about "regard for factuality".

:shrug:

Seriously. What's your angle?

-on edit-

There are a range of questions being asked in the article. Are you claiming TEPCO has answered them?

[Hannah Bell]

24. The article may be asking questions. However, I see no "experts" asking them.

The people quoted don't ask questions.

Information sharing has not been in the culture of Tepco or the Japanese government," said Najmedin Meshkati, a USC engineering professor.

- This is a statement.

Masaru Tamamoto, a professor of Asian and Middle Eastern studies at the University of Cambridge in Britain, said the handling of the crisis by Japanese government and corporate authorities is consistent with a culture that carefully guards information.

- This is a statement.

"I have this image that they are forcing seawater through the piping somehow," said Frank N. von Hippel, a Princeton University physicist. Von Hippel said he wasn't quite sure how the repair efforts were accomplished, but added, "I have a lot of sympathy for these people."

- This is a statement. A question is implied when he says he's not sure how repairs are being done. He doesn't say anything about tepco hiding information. he says he has sympathy.


The only questions asked in the article are by the writer or by unknown "experts" who aren't willing to go on the record.

The article makes sweeping claims, including the claim that it speaks for the 'international community':

"The lack of information has led to growing frustration with Tokyo Electric Power Co., known as Tepco, and the Japanese government, which has parceled out information with little context, few details and giant blind spots. It has left the international community confused about what is happening and what could come next."


But the only people on the record say nothing so sweeping at all.

[Wilms]

25. In other words, you don't have the answer. n/t

What is your angle?

[Hannah Bell]

26. answer to what? what is your angle? i have no "angle". what's yours?

[Wilms]

29. How playful of you.

The article asked, instances:

How did Japanese workers at the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant jury-rig fire hoses to cool damaged reactors? Is contaminated water from waste pools overflowing into the Pacific Ocean? Exactly who is the national incident commander?

Do YOU have the answer? No matter that the question is or isn't asked by an expert that meets YOUR standard of approval.

Are you going to tell your fellows on this board that TEPCO has been forthcoming?

[Selatius]

2. Is that a lot of radiation? 50% of Chernobyl radiation release?

[flamingdem]

4. It's concentrated more locally because they didn't have the huge explosion of Chernobyl nt

[thereismore]

6. Not just that. Fukushima released Cs and I, which are volatile, whereas Chernobyl

kicked up a lot of heavy components into the air as well. The difference is the containment.

[flamingdem]

7. Good point. Let's hope it stays contained!

Michio Kaku just said on Maddow's show that it could be like Chernobyl if the hydrogen gets a spark and goes up.

[Hannah Bell]

12. What that article fails to tell you about this:

"An Austrian meteorological institute, the Central Institute for Meteorology and Geodynamics, said this week that computer models showed the emissions of radioactive cesium from the plant might already amount to 50% of what was released from Chernobyl, and that releases of radioactive iodine could be 20% of the Chernobyl total."

...is that it is based on two readings in the US & one in Japan, which they extrapolated from. To come to the conclusion that cesium "might" = (not 50%, but) 20-60% of chernobyl & iodine "might" = 20%.

If the readings were representative & sustained over a longer period of time.

[CreekDog]

30. well is this ending anytime soon?

:rofl:

[BrookBrew]

13. Maybe it will be worse than this. This is a quarter megaton shot 400 miles from LA

there is PLENTY of data on this in the NEJM, including the deaths involved from doing this for 10 years..

This is reality. Not extrapolated falling sky. Real deal. So between high drama and fear there is fact. Radiation was not invented in japan a few weeks ago.



Edit this is a 20 - 50 KT shot, this is a 250 KT shot, in nevada.

[flamingdem]

16. Nukes need to be left back in the last century

and nuclear power needs to be replaced with renewables and safer sources.

[BrookBrew]

18. As soon as those can provide a base load, for sure

until then the choice remains burning dead animals or splitting animals to accomplish HVAC on cloudy non windy days.

Edit: do you think the people in this picture are getting more or less radiation than the people of Japan?

[Aerows]

14. Wait until tomorrow

bad news only comes out after the stock market closes. We got the worsening news last week over the weekend, and we can expect to see the same in this situation. They will minimize until they cannot do so anymore.

[flamingdem]

17. Check the energy forum, Fukushima will be upgraded to a Level 6 accident

It's in trouble, US stepping in to help with water spraying, a good thing.

[Hannah Bell]

23. wait, i just read another expert here at du who posted that it already *had* been

upgraded to level 6.

tyler durden said so, it must be true.

[Kalun D]

27. Probably Should Be a 6

just look at the condition of the buildings

it's out of control, that's pretty obvious

speaking of facts do you really think anyone knows for sure what's really going on? I mean half the monitoring equipment is probably broken and it's too radioactive to do a physical check. Smoke pours out periodically, they've had to completely remove personnel twice.

this could be worse than Chernobyl, sure it had better containment initially but how's that really holding up with blown up buildings and sea water cooling? Plus the storage areas aren't contained. There's 4 reactors at who knows what risk, Chernobyl was only one.

Tokyo is 150 miles away and the water is already over limit for infants.

[Hannah Bell]

28. The fact that someone thinks it should be a 6, or may rate it a 6, doesn't

mean the same thing as it *has* been rated a 6 by some body with the authority to rate it.

Some people are careless about the distinction; that's why so many people, some on this thread, think it *was* rated a 6 days ago or *is* rated a 6 now.

Maybe it will be rated a 6 tomorrow. but so far, it hasn't been.