Libyan Revolution Day 36 (Misrata shooters removed, but still in trouble)

[joshcryer]

Links to sites with updates: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-25">AJE Live Blog March 25 (today) http://blogs.aljazeera.net/twitter-dashboard">AJE Twitter Dashboard http://feb17.info/">feb17.info http://www.livestream.com/libya17feb?utm_source=lsplayer&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=footerlinks">Libya Alhurra (live video webcast from Benghazi) http://www.libyafeb17.com/">libyafeb17.com

Twitter links: http://twitter.com/#!/aymanm">Ayman Mohyeldin, with AJE http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn">Ben Wedeman, with CNN http://twitter.com/#!/tripolitanian">tripolitanian, a Libyan from Tripoli http://twitter.com/#!/BaghdadBrian">Brian Conley, reporter in Libya http://twitter.com/#!/freelibyanyouth">FreeLibyanYouth, Libyan advocate http://twitter.com/#!/LibyaFeb17_com">LibyaFeb17.com twitter account http://twitter.com/#!/ChangeInLibya">ChangeInLibya, Libyan advocate

Useful links: http://audioboo.fm/feb17voices">feb17voices http://www.google.com/search?q=time+in+libya">Current time in Libya http://www.islamicfinder.org/cityPrayerNew.php?country=libya">Prayer times in Libya

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x730234#735026">Day 35 part 2 here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/mar/24/libya-unitednations">Libya, the UN and the R2P debate
It is doubtless of some comfort to the citizenry of Benghazi or Misrata that if Gaddafi "exterminated" them without hindrance, it would advance the cause of national sovereignty and that their sacrifice would somehow constitute a blow against western imperialism. But generally, they wisely seem to prefer to stay alive, despite the Manichean principles of some protesters.

The American left and right are united in isolation. On the right, there is un-Samaritan disdain for the fate of a crowd of Arabs in a faraway country. On the left, some have espoused a concern for national sovereignty that owes more to the Treaty of Westphalia than the slogan "Workers of the World Unite", which motivated the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in the Spanish civil war.

It is true that the UN security council could and should be involved in Bahrain, Yemen and, indeed, Palestine. But that is no excuse for inaction when there is an actual opportunity to save lives in Libya. Those who, with some justice, accused Blair and Bush of war crimes for attacking Iraq without a UN mandate, disregard as a mere technicality the security council resolution 1973 (SCR 1973) that authorised – in fact, called for – this operation.

While Moscow and Beijing might now be trying to cover their tracks, just in case Gaddafi survives, they could have vetoed or amended SCR 1973; but they did not. The other abstainers had a more principled position – although one could think for some time about India's entirely justifiable intervention in Pakistan, which gave birth to Bangladesh, and wonder how it squares with such rigid principles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8405273/Libya-Misurata-hospital-damaged-in-fighting.html">Libya: Misurata hospital damaged in fighting - video
Broken glass and wrecked furniture can be seen in the footage after pro-Gaddafi tanks lay siege to the city of Misurata despite coalition air strikes.

A huge hole has been blown in one wall of the facility and gunfire can be heard in the background.

The coalition did manage to destroy tanks outside Misurata but appear to have pulled back from targets within the city, perhaps to avoid civilian casualties in line with the policy explained by Rear Admiral Gerard Hueber, the US chief of staff for the mission who said: "Our mission here is to protect the civilian populace and we choose our targets and plan our actions with that as a top priority."

Video of the convoy sent to take Benghazi, taken from a dead soliders cell phone (shows how massive the operation was): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWwOeZqz6M

Sky News went with Gaddafi minders to find a "civilian town bombed" only they were never shown any such thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O5KJavfiQo

TNC presser talking about various details of the revolution (thanks to Waiting for Everyone): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=730234&mesg_id=731532


Videos to bring the Libyan Revolution into context:

The Battle of Benghazi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vChMDuNd0

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaPnMnpCAA

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMzwQvcx62s

Latest indiscriminate shelling in Misurata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wop3C4zrPXI


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x677397">Text of the resolution.

How will a no fly zone work? AJE reports: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWEwehTtK2k

Canada:

http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110317/cf-libya-canada/20110317/?hub=WinnipegHome">Canada to send six CF-18s for Libya 'no-fly' mission
Canada will contribute six CF-18 fighter jets to help enforce a no-fly zone in Libya, sources have told CTV News.

Norway:

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFOSN00509220110318">Norway to join military intervention in Libya
OSLO, March 18 (Reuters) - Norway will join the international military action against Muammar Gaddafi's forces in Libya, a Norwegian daily quoted the defence minister as saying on its website on Friday.

"We will contribute to the operation," Grete Faremo told the daily Verdens Gang. "But it is too early to say exactly in what way. Sending air capabilities would be natural."

Belgium:

http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/monde/2011-03-18/la-belgique-prete-a-une-operation-militaire-en-libye-828970.php">Belgium ready for a military operation in Libya
Our country is available to take part in a military operation in Libya, following the UN vote authorizing the use of force against Gaddafi. The government has observed, in Parliament yesterday, a broad consensus in the Belgian political class on the need to prevent the Libyan leader to crush the rebellion in Benghazi.

Qatar and the UAE:

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/776/?SID=e80884adc09a37d26904578a9b5978cb">Run-up for Western world’s next military commitment ... with unusual support
France and the United Kingdom, which spearheaded the diplomatic push in the Security Council for the implementation of a no-fly zone, received unusual but certainly very welcome support. According to a further unnamed AFP source, the Council confirmed that Qatar and the UAE will join the international effort.

Denmark:

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/international/89-international/51229-denmark-ready-for-action-against-gaddafi.html">Denmark ready for action against Gaddafi
Espersen will discuss the resolution “as soon as possible” with the other political parties.

“We’re ready to take action immediately, and that includes ensuring prompt treatment of the resolution in parliament, so that Denmark can deploy its four F-16 fighter jets,” she said.

France:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/world/africa/19libya.html?src=twrhp">Following U.N. Vote, France Vows Libya Action ‘Soon’
UNITED NATIONS — Only hours after the United Nations Security Council voted to authorize military action, including airstrikes against Libyan tanks and heavy artillery and impose a no-flight zone to try to avert a rout of rebels by forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi. French officials said on Friday that military action would start “within a few hours” and news reports said British and French warplanes would spearhead the attack.

Italy:

http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE72G2HE20110317">Italy to make bases available for Libya no-fly zone-source
TUNIS, March 17 (Reuters) - Italy is ready to make its military bases available to enforce a U.N. Security Counci resolution imposing a no-fly zone on Libya, an Italian government source told Reuters on Thursday.

United Kingdom:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12770467">Libya: UK forces prepare after UN no-fly zone vote
UK forces are preparing to help enforce a no-fly zone over Libya after the UN backed "all necessary measures", short of an invasion, to protect civilians.

United States:

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/nations-draw-up-plans-for-no-fly-zone-over-libya-1.2765122">Nations draw up plans for no-fly zone over Libya
The United States, France and Britain were making plans Friday to prevent Moammar Gadhafi's forces from attacking Libyans after the U.N. Security Council authorized a no-fly zone over Libya and "all necessary measures" to protect civilians.

Jordan:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/military-strikes-on-libya-within-hours-20110318-1bzii.html?from=smh_sb">Military strikes on Libya 'within hours'
Jordan, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates will join international forces ready to enforce the no-fly zone, US Congress and UN diplomatic sources say.

Spain:

http://english.cri.cn/6966/2011/03/19/2801s627320.htm">Spain Expected to Join NATO No-fly Zone Enforcement over Libya Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero is expected to confirm Spain's contribution of two air force bases at a summit in Paris to discuss the enforcement of a no-fly zone over Libya Saturday.

"One month ago (Western countries) were sooo nice, so nice like pussycats," Saif says in a contemptuous sing-song tone."Now they want to be really aggressive like tigers. (But) soon they will come back, and cut oil deals, contracts. We know this game." - http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058389,00.html">Saif Gaddafi

(Yeah, Saif, as if you weren't "cutting oil deals, contracts" with western states. Who are the 'tigers' now? Bombing your own people.)

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0">March 10 7:28pm Saif al Islam Gaddafi says "the time has come for full-scale military action" against Libyan rebels. He goes on to say that Libyan forces loyal to his family "will never surrender, even if western powers intervene".

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/02/25/world/middleeast/map-of-how-the-protests-unfolded-in-libya.html">Click here for updated map

Military Installations



Oil Map



http://bit.ly/fe3P">Google Earth DL here to see positions of army and patrolling route of mercenaries

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=212059469427545728757.00049c4df2474b6543347&ll=31.203405,30.058594&spn=96.173452,183.867188&z=3">MAP of Protests across the Middle East

Mohammed Nabbous, killed by Gaddafi's forces while trying to report on the massacre in Benghazi

"I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to lose the battle" -Mohammed Nabbous, a month ago when all this began

I'm struggling to come up with something to say about this man. I was not aware of the Libyan uprising until I saw Mo's first report, begging for help, posted here on DU. I was stricken. Here was a man giving everything he had to explain a situation that clearly terrified him, I would not call him a coward in that moment, but you could see the fear in his eyes, and desperation in his voice. For 30 days Nabbous would spend many hours covering the uprising in Benghazi. For many nights I would go to sleep with the webcast of Benghazi live on my computer screen, looking to it occasionally to be sure it was still 'there.' Mo treated the chat room as if we were his friends, and in some way, we were. I never signed up to LiveStream to thank him for all his work and it seems somewhat shallow to do so now, given that I was a lurker for so long. Ever since I took over posting these threads "Libya Alhurra" has been linked as a source of information. It wasn't until last night, when I posted, and twitter posted on Mo's adventures out into Benghazi to try to determine the truth of the situation, that Mo's webchannel became a hit, over 2000 people were watching him stream live. This was curious to him because he'd done many reports like this in the past but he appeared somewhat bemused that the view count exploded as it did. Last night Mo became a star. This is a man who first started out with a webcast replete with fear and desperation finally overcoming that aspect of himself and losing that fear, to become someone who was a fighter for the resistance just as much as those who held the guns. Reporting on the front lines of Benghazi became his final act, and for that he should never, ever be forgotten. I'm so sorry Mo that I never got to know you better.

Mo's first report, which many of you may remember, begging for help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38EXALI60hg

Mo's last report, a fallen hero trying to spread the word to the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecu_iWLn-rg

Mo leaves behind a wife who is with child, she had http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/23/a_bright_voice_from_libyas_darkness">this to say about the No Fly Zone and R2P UN resolution:

We started this in a pure way, but he turned it bloody. Thousands of our men, women, and children have died. We just wanted our freedom, that's all we wanted, we didn't want power. Before, we could not do a single thing if it was not the way he wanted it. All we wanted was freedom. All we wanted was to be free. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up. We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Libya got liberated by anybody else. If NATO didn't start moving when they did, I assure you, I assure you, half of Benghazi if not more would have been killed. If they stop helping us, we are going to be all killed because he has no mercy anymore.

[joshcryer]

1. Current time in Libya, 3:56am Friday, March 24

[joshcryer]

2. If Gaddafi stays, well, he stays

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/2011/mar/24/obama-administration-usforeignpolicy">If Gaddafi stays, well, he stays
Typically sharp piece by Fareed Zakaria in Time, headlined "How Will Libya End?" He starts by noting that this is a truly multilateral operation, unlike all the others that are called multilateral by are really American:

But more than anything else, what appears to have infuriated many American politicians is Obama's unwillingness to put the U.S. in the driver's seat. "We have a Spectator in Chief instead of a Commander in Chief," fumed Newt Gingrich. Senator Lindsey Graham criticized Obama for acting as if "leading the free world is an inconvenience." And Rick Santorum levied the ultimate insult, noting that the French — the French! — had been leading the charge.

They are right, in part: Obama does not want to be seen as the ringmaster. The diplomacy of the past few weeks has broken a tradition born in the Cold War. For decades, U.S. Presidents unilaterally identified crises, articulated responses, determined actions and then persuaded, bribed and threatened countries to join in the "collective action." The U.S. ran the show with little interference from others but paid all the prices and bore all the burdens. Countries that would benefit from a military intervention rarely stood up to request it. They didn't need to. America would act, and they could free-ride.

These same people would of course be hammering at Obama if he had taken a more aggressive lead for committing the crime of entangling the United States in a nation-building exercise in a far-off land where we have no compelling interest etc etc. So on the one hand they're just opportunists, although it does genuinely grate their cheese that Obama didn't act like the typical US president-bully. Obama does want America to retreat a bit on the world stage, and quite sensibly so, say I and many millions of other Americans who aren't big fans of the Cheney way.

[joshcryer]

3. Less military action in Tripoli tonight than the previous five nights since the no-fly zone.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-25#update-19296">2:06am Our reporter Anita McNaught, in Tripoli, says she has heard less military action in the city tonight than the previous five nights since the no-fly zone was imposed.

[pinboy3niner]

4. BREAKING, CNN: New explosions and AA fire reported in Tripoli moments ago nt

[joshcryer]

5. Hehe, and I just posted the opposite of that... :P

[pinboy3niner]

11. Sucker! :)

:rofl:

AJE posted that just after 2am. But it occurred to me that that the coalition might throw a changeup in the timing of their airstrikes, so I didn't get suckered.

Didn't you ever watch old cowboy-and Indian-movies? Do you remember what ALWAYS happens after someone says:

"It's quiet--TOO quiet." :scared:

:rofl:

[joshcryer]

12. Ha! I'm also really discombobulated.

Having a bit of trouble compiling all my sources together tonight.

[pinboy3niner]

15. And I thought that was MY unique M.O.

It's nice to know that I'm not ALONE in that! :)

You're doing just fine, Josh--keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

[joshcryer]

16. Thanks for taking up my serious slack pinboy3niner.

Wish I had a desk job would be a lot easier.

[bobbolink]

114. Once again, taking my name in vain... and DISSing it!

Is there a limit to bad puns here? :rofl:

[bobbolink]

35. Now, now boys...

:rofl:

[pinboy3niner]

37. Hey, if your name is Josh...you're gonna get joshed

I couldn't help myself! :evilgrin:

I wonder what could have made me do it...



:rofl:

[bobbolink]

50. And if you keep it up, you might get jostled!

Its late... it was a try. :)

I can tell things are looking up a bit... there's more playfulness. That's a good thing.

[pinboy3niner]

104. ZOMG! Oh noes, I might get 'joshtled!1!!

:scared:

:hide:

:rofl:

[bobbolink]

106. Don't mess with me, pinBOY.... I can get very punny!

:pals:

[joshcryer]

6. Libya: Gaddafi loyalists in Ajdabiya 'seeking to surrender'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8404944/Libya-Gaddafi-loyalists-in-Ajdabiya-seeking-to-surrender.html">Libya: Gaddafi loyalists in Ajdabiya 'seeking to surrender'
A rebel commander, former Libyan air force colonel Ahmed Omar Bani, told journalists in his first new conference that local mullahs in the contested town of Ajdabiya had been used to mediate talks.

Gaddafi loyalists have been under pressure after they have been targeted by accurate coalition air strikes over the last six days outside the town that stands at a junction on the road to Benghazi in the east of the country.

"Some of the Ajdabiya militias have asked to surrender to be left alone and to go back home," said Col Bani, who was dressed in military uniform. "We are trying to negotiate with these people in Ajdabiya because we are almost sure that they have lost contact with their headquarters," he added.

Lightly armed rebel forces are locked in a stalemate with the much better armed Gaddafi forces, but the government troops appear unwilling to advance their tanks onto open roads where they could be targeted by air strikes.

This was posted in the last thread but I thought it deserved reposting, still catching up and I don't want to post dupes.

[tabatha]

7. Day 36 - I hope it does not go beyond day 50.

Coalition please pull out the stops and get it over with !!

Free Libya song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMs54huBy2g

[joshcryer]

10. It may yet. I hope Gaddafi leaves. The TNC sending out peace negotiations is perfect.

It's a very interesting turn of events.

[defendandprotect]

45. What's "TNC" ... with my apologies!

[Waiting For Everyman]

49. Transitional National Council

:)

[bobbolink]

73. Thank you! I keep blocking it out...I think it rings too close to DLC fo rme. ^_^

[defendandprotect]

44. Amazingly Gaddafi still seems to be in a comfort zone -- however,

think he is a realist about his own safety and wealth --

wondering what might actually move him out?

[joshcryer]

8. Libya: Military coalition continues attacks on Gaddafi – in pictures (photo gallery)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2011/mar/24/libya-gaddafi-attacks-in-pictures">Libya: Military coalition continues attacks on Gaddafi – in pictures

[highplainsdem]

9. K&R

[joshcryer]

13. SoS Clinton on the NFZ and US role:

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2011/03/24/sot.clinton.no.fly.zone.libya.cnn

[bobbolink]

14. If you happen to find a video of that Ham guy (military) could you please post that?

I walked away too soon.

Thanks! :hi:

[joshcryer]

17. I'm lookin' for it.

:hi:

(And yes I'll definitely post it.)

[bobbolink]

18. Thanks... you're the best!

And, what is the name again of the temporary revolutionary group?

I used to have a brain.

I really miss it. :(

[joshcryer]

23. Here's a talk he gave today, audio only:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMovcs1m7Q8

[joshcryer]

25. Post above is definitely it, starting at 6:30.

:hi:

[bobbolink]

31. Thanks... its loading really slowly.

These generals think I have all the time in the world. ^_^

[joshcryer]

19. Russian president Dmitry Medvedev has called Barack Obama to discuss the Libyan crisis

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-25#update-19301">4:10am The Kremlin says Russian president Dmitry Medvedev has called Barack Obama to discuss the Libyan crisis.

"The Russian president especially noted the need to avoid casualties among the civilian population and the priority of achieving goals set by UN Security Council Resolution 1973," the Kremlin said.

[Cerridwen]

20. Gadhafi loyalists search Tripoli morgues for bodies

NicRobertsonCNN
Sources at Pentagon tell us Gadhafi loyalists search Tripoli morgues for bodies to present to journalists as civilian casualties

Al Arabia- Dr from Tripoli denies reports of civilian casualties due to airstrikes. Translated

[bobbolink]

22. Yes, the bastids have been doing this all along. And so many "liberals" then believe them!

:grr:

[Cerridwen]

24. recap of "funeral" (2nd edit/update)

feb17libya
Recap of "funeral" held by
#Gaddafi
for people who were "killed" by coalition forces: 1- No family were present to interview_
#Libya
#Feb17

feb17libya
Recap of "funeral" held by
#Gaddafi
for people who were "killed" by coalition forces: 2- when one casket was opened, no body _
#Libya
#Feb17

feb17libya
Recap of "funeral" held by
#Gaddafi
for people who were "killed" by coalition forces: 3- no one was grieving._
#Libya
#Feb17

-----------

GenStrike
If there had been even jst 1 civ death caused by coaliton;gad wld declare natnl day of mourning&gTV wld broadcast funeral 24/7
#feb17
#libya


-----edit to add

freedom4libya
Libyans do not put flowers on graves. What
#Gadhafi
is showing today in the mass burial is nothing more than a show.

------------

Elements Of Theater On View In Libya


TRIPOLI, Libya — More than 30 coffins were carried to Martyrs Cemetery here Thursday, escorted by hundreds of flag-waving supporters of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi chanting condemnation of what the state media said were civilian casualties of American and European airstrikes.

But after two hours of noisy pro-Qaddafi, anti-Western cheers — and very little grief — for what state television called “victims of the crusader colonialist aggression,” most of the coffins were taken away. Only about a dozen coffins were actually buried, and two Western photographers said some smelled of corpses dead for days. There was no way to know who or what was in the others, or for that matter what was going through the minds of those who turned up to cheer.

Colonel Qaddafi’s Libya is a country where even a coffin is sometimes a question mark. Four decades of ruthless penalties for political dissent — and vast rewards for Qaddafi loyalty — long ago transformed Libyan public life into a kind of elaborate theater, dropping a heavy curtain between public expression and private opinion. And that curtain has made the current conflict between Colonel Qaddafi and the rebels trying to unseat him a shadowy affair in which it is often hard to tell just who is playing what role — from the colonel’s closest associates to the flag-waving crowds in the street.

At the pro-Qaddafi rallies in the city’s central Green Square and the colonel’s compound, Western journalists have run into at least three Libyans who had previously attended protests or made anonymous statements against the Qaddafi government. A participant in an anti-Qaddafi protest in the neighborhood of Tajoura cheerfully reintroduced himself days later to a photographer for The New York Times in the middle of Green Square. “Sad,” he said of the events in Libya, without specifying whether he was referring to the protests or the crackdown.

<see more at link in title>

[bobbolink]

27. Oh, that is so telling... Thanks!

[Cerridwen]

30. Remember the color-coded terror "alerts" were used in the US

to help (re)(s)elect shrub.

Take care, Bobbie.

I'm just drive-by posting, if at all, these days.

[bobbolink]

34. I'm glad you drove by here.... and hope you will find this street regularly.

It has become my haven.

We have so much to learn from these wonderful people!

Thanks for your contribution!

[joshcryer]

29. Pic of two funeral goers:

I have to admit, that young woman wearing those Hollywood-style Paris Hilton sunglasses is... nice. :P

[pinboy3niner]

32. Anderson Cooper reported the empty casket on CNN's AC360

He's been doing a lot of excellent reporting on Libya--even managed to squeeze some in when he'd gone to report on Japan.

[bobbolink]

36. You mean I'm going to have to be impressed by him again?

I hope a lot of people got the real significance of what he broadcast!

If there is ever a youtube of it that you come across, please post it.

Thanks!

[defendandprotect]

53. Answers my question -- thanks!

[pinboy3niner]

60. Good to see you back!

Hope all is well.

[defendandprotect]

63. Had to block it for a while because they were so defenseless and loss of

life increasing so horribly with Gaddafi attacks -- !!

But, more encouraged now with at least G's air power gone -- and hope much more!

Trying to catch up w/o being too much of a pest!!

:)

[defendandprotect]

52. Thanks -- and watched BBC briefly and thought they gave a hint of the reality

behind the funerals -- but wasn't sure -- !!

Any other coverage telling the truth about it?

[tabatha]

21. Many Libyans appear to back Gaddafi

“Seventy-five percent of the people are against him,” said one dissident, who was in the vanguard of the protest movement that was crushed in Tripoli last month and who agreed to a furtive meeting with journalists in a downtown cafe. “But there are some people who really do love him. They’ve known no one else all their lives. They think he’s in their blood.”

That a man who boasts he lives in a tent and whom Ronald Reagan once dubbed “the mad dog of the Middle East” still commands devotion four decades into his rule is one of the enduring mysteries of this idiosyncratic country.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/many-libyans-appear-to-back-gaddafi/2011/03/24/ABHShlRB_story.html

[pinboy3niner]

26. ABC News Exclusive: Hero Pilots' First Interview (in rescue of downed airman) (1:18)

Martha Raddatz speaks to the Marines who rescued the downed F-15 pilot (1:18):

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/abc-news-exclusive-hero-pilots-interview-13214240

[joshcryer]

28. AFRICOM's Ham Libya Update (audio) in Sigonella, Italy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMovcs1m7Q8

Emotional moment at 6:30, been following Ham, he appears to be involved in a lot of very emotional aspects of war, he was there when 20+ military people were blown up in the mess hall in Iraq, had PSTD for weeks after that.

I think he takes great offense at the idea that they're being as indiscriminate as fucking Gaddafi, a man who has shelled Misrata for almost a week, and shelled other cities for even longer. A man who sieged Al Zawaiya for over 3 weeks. Gaddafi is the one who wants to kill civilians.

[Raksha]

51. I'm impressed with Gen. Ham. From what I could tell from that video,

he seems honest and professional. Says he isn't concerned about mission creep.

[defendandprotect]

54. Thanks for the video --

[catchnrelease]

33. K&R

[Waiting For Everyman]

38. There's a report that Musa Kosa was arrested by G for trying to flee to Tunisia.

ChangeInLibya is searching for confirmation. Here's the exchange I've been following (about 1-2 hours ago)...


ChangeInLibya
Libyan revolutionaries in Benghazi arrest the man suspected of killing Yvonne Fletcher: http://bit.ly/g9YvVL #libya #feb17 #gaddaficrimes

apk222
@ChangeInLibya last nite there were reports of arrest of a top G military planner (ugly old guy w white hair)- was that confirmed?

ChangeInLibya
@apk222 That wouldn't be Musa Kosa right?

apk222
@ChangeInLibya yes - that was his name

ChangeInLibya Mhalwes
@apk222 Haha I'm trying to confirm too :) I didn't hear anything - but if he did get caught by G, he's in pretttyyyy deep shit now

apk222
@ChangeInLibya it was a rumor last nite- I googled him- what a evil man

ChangeInLibya
The story about Musa Kosa: Was caught by Gaddafi soldiers trying to flee/defect to Tunisia. Any news/confirmation on this pls? #libya #feb17

LibyaInMe
@ChangeInLibya that would one of te greatest news ever!

ChangeInLibya
@LibyaInMe I know. means gaddafi would kill and skin him alive. fitting end to a spy bastard

LibyaInMe
@ChangeInLibya his son lives in my city, maybe I should ask him :P NOT

________

If I see a definite confirmation I'll post in reply to this one. (Unless it's after this thread is done.)

[pinboy3niner]

82. There's been nothing in the news on it so far

The first tweet is a different story, about a man named Ahmed Sodani:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=730234&mesg_id=735164

This is Moussa Koussa:




I'll keep my eyes open in case this pops up in the news. Thanks for the heads-up on the rumors.

:hi:

[pinboy3niner]

39. AJE report on desperate conditions for people of Ajdabiyah:

Al Jazeera correspondent James Bays reports on the desperate conditions for people who have chosen to stay in Ajdabiya, a city which has been fought over for more than two weeks. Many other city residents have fled the violence to live in camps in the open desert.

Watch on YouTube:

Fight for Ajdabiya continues (2:22)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgK8DISdmyw&feature=player_embedded

[defendandprotect]

41. Thanks -- now that they're getting some help, maybe I can actually

read this again --

Was wondering if Catherina might come back for a bit and tell us how she feels

about how this is going?

[tabatha]

48. Don't think so.

She has a couple recent posts - negative - about the rebels.

[defendandprotect]

57. "about the rebels" .... ???

You don't mean the protesters?

But glad to hear that Caterina has been back -- and thank you!

[tabatha]

62. Sorry, I used to type out protesters each time

and got lazy and used the word rebel. My bad.

[defendandprotect]

65. My apologies -- clearly they have been being called rebels now ....

but why would Catherina be upset with them?

Abandoning non-violence?

Or perhaps because they got the NFZ they were asking for?

[joshcryer]

71. The revolutionaries were abandoned when they asked for the NFZ.

Since they got the NFZ they've been slandered.

BTW, I may sometimes use "rebels" as I don't think it's offensive if the context is preserved.

[tabatha]

74. Look for her posts and read them.

You do know how to do that?

[defendandprotect]

85. Yes -- I'll go back and look --

but thought it was clear that the protesters pretty much knew they

were going to need -- and were asking for -- a NFZ from the beginning.

Understand the fears, however --

fear of my own USA, that's for sure!!

[joshcryer]

59. Not really negative, outright slanderous.

[bobbolink]

66. SAdly, I have to agree. Rather shocking.

[tabatha]

67. You really have taken this revolution to heart.

I hope it ends well and that one day you can go visit that country.

There seem to be some awesome people there.

I hate painting any group of people with one brush - because I have learned in the many years of my life that there are good and bad in any group, although certain kinds of bad stick together, eg Neocons.

[joshcryer]

69. I will visit it, I have determined. I post negative thing about the revolutionaries.

They're far from perfect (no fighters are perfect). But the shit that is being spread is total garbage lies.

[joshcryer]

43. I was eating and had my hands full!

:P

[pinboy3niner]

46. LOL! Have some coffee...

I'm taking a break, Josh. Back later. :hi:

[joshcryer]

40. Fight for Ajdabiya continues - video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgK8DISdmyw

[pinboy3niner]

42. Check the post just above yours :)

[defendandprotect]

61. Hi -- are you posting tweets -- retweets? Or are you relying on ALJ or

news bulletins? Has the tweet news from the protesters slowed down greatly?

[joshcryer]

70. The tweets are overwhelming, I had to stop posting them.

They're also less accurate now that Nabbous was killed, a lot of their info was coming from his video chat.

[Waiting For Everyman]

47. G's minders-of-journos can't find civilian bomb damage.

If this has been posted somewhere already, I'm sorry, but I hadn't seen it. Too funny! CNN's Nic Robertson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oW6QWr23N8&feature=player_embedded

Yup, that damage has got to be really awful if the Gaddafi tour guide can't even find it. LOL!

:rofl:

[bobbolink]

55. Is this a war or a Keystone Kops replay?

:rofl:

[Cerridwen]

56. josh and pinboy...did you guys get Archbishop Desmond Tutu

quotes supporting the NFZ? I found a couple but didn't post as I'm not sure you already got those quotes from that "warmongering" Archbishop.

One report said he supported the gov't for their stand on the UN Resolution 1973; other reports left that out. His quotes are chopped up and incomplete.

Let me know and I'll post what I've found.

[pinboy3niner]

58. Please post whatever you can

I haven't seen them yet, and I've been scouring a lot of news sites. Thanks!

P.S.--Thanks also for that NYT story above! :toast:

[Cerridwen]

64. YW - Yep, they're lyin'; we're buyin' *sigh* I'll go get those links. n/t

[bobbolink]

68. I would LOVE to see them!

Chopped or whole. Thanks!

[Cerridwen]

72. Links/quotes from that ol' warmonger, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, himself..

Take 'em for what they're worth:

No Libya strikes if Africa leaders answerable to peers: Tutu

CAPE TOWN — Foreign military strikes in Libya against Moamer Kadhafi's rule would not be needed if African leaders held their peers to account, South Africa's Desmond Tutu said Sunday.

"If Africa's leaders held their peers to account there would be no need for the people of Libya to suffer human rights violations. And there would be no need for United Nations-sanctioned military interventions in Libya," Tutu said.

"Instead, Colonel Moamer Kadhafi has for more than 40 years honed his skills in the art of resource management to win friends and influence people. And as a result, Africa seems powerless to stop him," the Nobel Peace laureate said in a statement.

Tutu said he hoped events in north Africa would bring a new period of accountability for African leaders.

South Africa's Tutu calls for international intervention in Libya

Johannesburg - Former South African archbishop Desmond Tutu said he hopes the international community will 'do all they can to stop the carnage' in Libya, in comments made ahead of high-level European Union meetings Thursday on the issue.

'When government is unable or unwilling, then the international community should intervene,' he said.

Tutu, an icon of his country's struggle for democracy, also said during a lecture at the University of the Western Cape on Wednesday night that the unrest in North Africa should remind governments everywhere that people are not fools.

'One day, they will call rulers to account,' the Nobel Peace Prize laureate said.

Hold politicians accountable - Tutu

<snip>

He hoped events in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya would see African leaders become accountable to their people and peers.

"If Africa's leaders held their peers to account there would be no need for the people of Libya to suffer human rights violations," he said in a statement.

"And there would be no need for United Nations sanctioned military interventions in Libya.

"Instead, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi has for more than 40 years honed his skills in the art of resource management to win friends and influence people. And as a result, Africa seems powerless to stop him."

And, to be 'fair and balanced' a much truncated blurp from...fox

Tutu: Africa must hold Gadhafi accountable

The statement released Sunday by Tutu says Africa "seems powerless" to stop the Libyan leader who has ruled for more than 40 years.

U.S. and European allies are conducting the widest international military effort in Libya since the Iraq war. But an African Union panel said late Saturday it was opposed to a foreign military intervention.

Tutu says there would be no need for a military interventions in Libya if Africa's leaders had held their peers to account.

Gadhafi has long played a big role in the African Union, using Libya's oil wealth to fund its transformation. He also served as AU chairman in 2009.

<no more at link>

And now, since my browser is showing signs of angina, time to restart.

[tabatha]

75. This should be an OP.

I hope the people of the countries in the ME that are demanding freedom, can one day say like Tutu - "I can't believe it".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMUhmiPUT2s

One of my favorite videos except for the commentator.

[tabatha]

77. Another feature at the WC 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCnkRXl1vwA

from the ME. Love their elegant clothing.

[Cerridwen]

80. If you care to, pls make OP. n/t

[tabatha]

84. It's your work.

[Cerridwen]

89. Not mine. Work of others. I have no patience for DU.

Please make OP as you please. I'm posting and leaving to monitor twitter, BBC, Al Jazeera, Reuters, some CNN, et. al.

Is yours to use.

Please do so and save me the aggravation.

[tabatha]

90. Ok, I'll do it.

[bobbolink]

105. Shall we place bets...

on how long it is up before one of the anti-religionists calls him a hypocrit?

:(

[bobbolink]

76. As usual, he is really on point. Thanks for finding these!

:hi:

[tabatha]

79. Love that man.

[Cerridwen]

83. Just part of the drive-by service, ma'am. :) n/t

[joshcryer]

78. Nice find, thanks a bunch for posting it.

[Cerridwen]

81. Glad to contribute. In between tweets. :) n/t

[applegrove]

92. I wish I could rec this. Kick.

[MilesColtrane]

103. That Bishop Tutu...what a warmonger!

[tabatha]

86. Getting it Right on Qaddafi

By Gabor Rona
International Legal Director - Human Rights First

Libyan leader Muammar el-Qaddafi is committing atrocities against his people.

His armed forces and police are reported to be systematically murdering peaceful protesters in a misguided attempt to quell public demonstrations for democratic reform. Justifiable outrage has taken many forms, not all of them entirely productive.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon, for example, said the following to reporters in Los Angeles:

“I have seen very disturbing and shocking scenes, where Libyan authorities have been firing at demonstrators from warplanes and helicopters. This is unacceptable. This must stop immediately. This is a serious violation of international humanitarian law.”

It is gratifying to see the Secretary General’s unequivocal condemnation. But there’s a problem. International humanitarian law is the law of armed conflict, otherwise known as the laws of war, detailed in the Geneva Conventions. For the moment, there is no war in Libya and so, international humanitarian law does not apply. Because the laws of war permit killing, the Secretary General unwittingly lowers the bar for use of official force even as he rightly condemns it. Whatever crimes are being committed by the Libyan regime, they are not war crimes. Human rights law would be the more appropriate benchmark.

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/2011/02/23/getting-it-right-on-qaddafi/

[bobbolink]

107. There's a point there, but there don't seem to be any other options, and the mass killings must stop

This is a topic that must be thoroughly hashed out in the future!

That Responsibility resolution must be more carefully looked at, and some real options instituted.

Usually steps forward, and steps of growth aren't even, and aren't easy.

[tabatha]

109. I agree

Killing one's own population using heavy artillery or any other means has to stop. Forever.

And as Josh stated, this is the first implementation of the Responsibility resolution - and it has to work to have any credibility in the future.

[pinboy3niner]

87. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 6:35 AM FRIDAY, MARCH 25

Time flies when you're having...a REVOLUTION!

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[tabatha]

88. U.S. and the Middle East Uprisings: Time to Get on the Right Side of History

By Brian Dooley
Director, Human Rights Defenders Program

It was Lenin who said “there are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen”. It seems like decades worth of history are suddenly happening in the Middle East, with every morning bringing some new development that would have been scarcely imaginable a few months ago.

.......................

The Obama Administration’s record on developments has so far been mixed. Slow to appreciate the strength of the revolution in Egypt and Tunisia, it prevaricated and sent mixed messages to the region about whether it wanted Mubarak to stay or go. The U.S. Government still has lots of explaining to do to the people of Egypt and Tunisia about why it supported the repressive regimes there so strongly and for so long, and needs to convince people there that it’s now on the side of democracy and human rights. Some young pro-democracy leaders, unhappy at U.S. policy, refused to meet Secretary Hillary Clinton in Cairo last week.

.......................

On Libya, U.S. diplomats did well in securing multilateral support for the UN resolution authorizing military force to protect civilians, which at the time of writing appears to have stayed Qaddafi’s hand. But if the U.S. Government is to win the trust of people across the Middle East, it needs to convince them that its days of propping up repressive, torturing, corrupt regimes are over.


http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/2011/03/18/us-and-the-middle-east-uprisings-time-to-get-on-the-right-side-of-history/

[bobbolink]

108. GREAT thoughts and information! Thanks for finding this.

I'm feeling awkward about butting in with observations, but there are things like this that I would like to discuss.

I'm wondering how we can do that in the context of DU. I don't want to interrupt, but clearly, we are entering a new phase of understanding, and it begs ... well, understanding.

How can we do this?

[tabatha]

110. Today, I am going to be super busy

so I won't have time to post much.

I think we should make a big stink about a lot of things.

People who have the power to change the lives of millions, should be checked by those millions all the time, not matter what the subject.

[bobbolink]

115. I understand, and my thoughts probably aren't coalesced enough to even ask the right questions.

"I think we should make a big stink about a lot of things."

As do I... but first I have to have them clear in my own mind.

I'm on a steep learning curve here, and there's a lot I'm trying to process and figure out.

I'm waving the virtual white flag.

:hi:

[Waiting For Everyman]

112. I see nothing wrong with discussing right here Bobbo,

and I doubt that Josh or Pinboy would mind. Lately it's a little "intense" shall we say on the larger forum. "Tiring" might be another word? Anyway, especially since those of us who are interested in Libya/other protests tend to follow this thread, and the news in it, it just seems to make sense to bring up whatever you'd like to here. I'm pretty stretched thin at the moment too, but what time I have is mostly spent catching up on this thread. (And Twitter, I try to follow a bit there too. The big forums here, only sporadically.) I'd certainly respond to what's on your mind, if I have a thought on it, especially I'd try to if no one else has.

Personally as I'm reading the threads, your comments and everyone's add to it for me. You're certainly as informed as anyone else here - I say go for it, with whatever's on your mind.

:)

(Btw in general to any twitterers here, I'm @W8ing4Everyman there. I find a lot of interesting stuff there that I try to retweet to "spread it around", a lot more than I post here, from sources that I think are credible, a lot of them people who are taking part in the events. I only post in these threads a fraction of that, mostly what seems noteworthy if nobody else has already. But things do "break" first there even before the news stories are written up, and there are many more sources of info than we could possibly cover in this thread, or on DU for that matter. The news sources follow at lot of those same people to GET their stories in the first place... that's in case anybody "wants more" input, lol. It took me a while to "take" to twitter, but now I think it's kind of fun.)

[bobbolink]

113. Thanks, w8ing! This is heavy lifting that people here are doing and I don't want to intrude,

What I am most concerned about, and what I can't really get a handle on for myself, is the Responsibility resolution, and what that means for the future.

When Josh posted that, it started an intellectual landslide in my alleged mind, and some of these articles are adding to that. (Can you hear the rumbles as it tears down the mountain side of my mind?)

I'm guessing that many of us are facing this dilemma.... we have spent our lives believing in peace and, as I have, protesting wars.

Now there is another wrinkle to it, as there often is in life, so just when we are fully realizing how corrupted our government is, especially when it comes to wars, we find that we have to add other contingencies to the mix. My gut reaction was that there NEEDED to be a no fly zone. As that developed more, while I am conflicted, I see the necessity.

Some of these recent articles are talking about how this is the first test of this resolution, and as Josh says, it is vitally important not to fuck this up.

At the same time, our traditional responses very possibly aren't the most productive.

At that point, my alleged mind goes into a skid.

HELP! ^_^

[Cerridwen]

91. "Hugs From Libyans" - NYTimes.

I'm about to pass-out from exhaustion. Posting a bit because I'm glued to what is happening. Sorry.

Hugs From Libyans (OpED)

This may be a first for the Arab world: An American airman who bailed out over Libya was rescued from his hiding place in a sheep pen by villagers who hugged him, served him juice and thanked him effusively for bombing their country.

Even though some villagers were hit by American shrapnel, one gamely told an Associated Press reporter that he bore no grudges. Then, on Wednesday in Benghazi, the major city in eastern Libya whose streets would almost certainly be running with blood now if it weren’t for the American-led military intervention, residents held a “thank you rally.” They wanted to express gratitude to coalition forces for helping save their lives.

Doubts are reverberating across America about the military intervention in Libya. Those questions are legitimate, and the uncertainties are huge. But let’s not forget that a humanitarian catastrophe has been averted for now and that this intervention looks much less like the 2003 invasion of Iraq than the successful 1991 gulf war to rescue Kuwait from Iraqi military occupation.

This is also one of the few times in history when outside forces have intervened militarily to save the lives of citizens from their government. More commonly, we wring our hands for years as victims are massacred, and then, when it is too late, earnestly declare: “Never again.”

<more at link>

[pinboy3niner]

93. You're good at this! Thanks for all your posts. nt

[Cerridwen]

95. Cut my teeth on opposition research against the neo-cons/repubs.

gaddafi's damned near child's play compared to US neo-cons/repubs and neo-libs.

Really, I'm going to sleep now...honest I am...any second now. *sigh*

[pinboy3niner]

94. Libyan Foreign Minister Reaches Out to U.S. Official

Fox News reports that Libyan Foreign Minister Musa Kusa made his second call to Jeffrey Feltman, a high-ranking State Department diplomat, on Sunday. Fox attributes the story to "a senior State Department official intimately involved with the Libyan crisis." The source did not share the contents of the call, but Feltman has personally thanked Kusa for his help during the evacuation of US citizens from Libya.

Given the timing of the call, we guess that the coalition's military intervention - which had begun the previous day - was a subject of conversation.

6:39am
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-25

[defendandprotect]

96. Will look for you tomorrow -- night!

[pinboy3niner]

97. Goodnight, d&p

Get plenty of rest--looks to be another busy day tomorrow! :hi:

[joshcryer]

98. doh nevermind, thought you were going to sleep

[pinboy3niner]

99. I thought so, too

Also thought I'd run errands first and pick up something to eat from places that have now been closed for an hour and a half. *sigh* :)

Looks like I'm fixing a late supper, so I'll be up for a while...but, if anybody asks, just tell them that I don't need sleep--I subsist on the blood of tyrants! :rofl:

[bobbolink]

111. I will cheer you on for civil disobedience regarding Libya, but pleeeez...

no charges of breaking and entering... even for food, 'K?

It seems that the action breaks late at night, and I have been staying up too late, also.

I know I repeat myself, but so many thanks for your dedication to this effort!

:yourock: :pals:

[joshcryer]

100. Khaled M.'s song for Libya:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NReDBYRZ7nY

[pinboy3niner]

101. Explosions heard on outskirts of Tripoli

Explosions heard on outskirts of Tripoli


By the CNN Wire StaffMarch 25, 2011 -- Updated 0407 GMT (1207 HKT)


Brussels, Belgium (CNN) -- Warplanes roared through the skies over the Libya capital, Tripoli, early Friday, dropping bombs on the outskirts of the city where military bases are located.

Anti-aircraft fire quickly punctuated the darkness, then fell silent again.

...


Ban <U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon> said he had sent his envoy to an African Union meeting to be held Friday in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, at which representatives of the Gadhafi government and the opposition were expected to attend. "Their aim: to reach a cease-fire and political solution."

But there was no sign that any such solution was near. The battle for Misrata, Libya's third-largest city, has been ongoing for more than a week.


http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/25/libya.war/

[joshcryer]

102. Day 36 part 2 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x736676

A 3 parter? Geez guys slow down! :P