Health Insurance Rant. (Anger Alert.)

[rbnyc]

I pay almost $500 a month for family health insurance. My small not-for-profit organization pays the other 2/3 of the premium. The high cost of employee health insurance is one of the reasons my organization can’t pay higher salaries. So there’s also an unseen cost to me in taking a lower salary. My co-pay for a regular doctor’s visit is $40. If I get sent downstairs for blood work, that’s another $40. If I have to go to the emergency room, it’s $100. If I need an out-patient procedure, that’s a $750 copay. Now I just received a bill for a strep throat test, for the whole cost of the test because that’s not covered by insurance at all.

So why the fuck am I paying for health insurance?! I have over $2,000 in medical bills right now, for basic stuff. I know that’s nothing compared to uninsured families who are bankrupt from medical expenses, but WTF!! It just gets worse and worse. It makes absolutely no god-damned sense to have health insurance tied to employment. And health insurance companies should not be allowed to operate as for-profit entities. Period. Exclamation point!

Working families who are not living excessively should be able to pay their god-damned bills, and if they are lucky enough to have health insurance, they should be able to afford to use it. What’s the point of going to the doctor if I can’t afford to pay for the tests he needs to diagnose and treat me? So why am I paying $500 a month if I now feel prohibited from sending my family to the doctor because of our accumulating medical debt from outrageous co-pays and uncovered items? I could really use that money for:

Food!
Child Care!
Electricity!
Our mortgage!

FUCK!!!!!!!

[Pacifist Patriot]

1. K&R

:hug:

[Mumble]

2. Agree w/you 100%...

...pay outrageous premiums for virtually no coverage.

[geardaddy]

3. I hear you.

I pay $526.39 for individual health insurance, because of a pesky renal transplant I had 18 years ago.

[lovuian]

4. it can't go on like this slavery for healthcare and military

both those industries are eating out GDP

it can't continue

[Moral_Imagination]

5. Answer is in your question

"I know that’s nothing compared to uninsured families who are bankrupt from medical expenses"

This is where alot of the $500/month goes...

[JuniperLea]

8. Exactly

It's the invisible elephant in the room.

My best friend received a post card from the local hospital with instructions on how to make an emergency room appointment when you have no health insurance. He called it Republican Health Care... which is exactly what it is. I remember clearly when Bush said, just go to the emergency room.

It would cost a lot less to provide preventitive care insurance to everyone and would save a lot of money in the long run. This is a form of taxation, but the Pubbies don't want to call it that, so they force those of us who do have access to health insurance to pay the premiums for all.

[Lorien]

32. Agreeing with Right Wing talking points now?

Nice way to out yourself.

[fascisthunter]

78. .

[lonestarnot]

46. What you sell insurance too?

[Auntie Bush]

84. Two things....

1. You're right...it is an underhanded form of taxation. I never thought of it that way before. (Thanks for enlightening me.) Just as all the cuts Congress is advocating trying to balance the budget on our backs. So everything they cut is actually a tax increase or loss of income. You can bet if we tried to do anything that caused loss of income to some corporation they'd cry..."You can't do that...it's a tax increase...and we can't raise taxes!"

2. Calling those Rethugs "Pubbies" is much too nice/cute a term for a bunch of selfish, thieving, hypocritical bastards. :puke:

[Gormy Cuss]

10. Link?

More likely a lot of that $500/mo goes to insurance company salaries and profits.

[Moral_Imagination]

12. Who do you think pays for the bankrupt families care?

Link?

[Lorien]

31. No one. They die. nt

[freshwest]

86. You're right. Out of sight, out of mind, and not picking someone else's pocket, as claimed.

Are the Galtians happy now? Or aren't we dying fast enough?

[Donnachaidh]

42. the bankrupt families do

Try doing some research before you spew RW talking points.

Sick people do try to pay bills. Despite what Rush and Beck say. And when life and death is at stake, they have no option but to go to the ER. Now when the ER is charging 400 a day for a bed -- and ambulances are charging 950 a pop -- those bills add up quickly.

They would not BE bankrupt if the medical profession wasn't aggressively going after every dime possible, via courts.

[dotymed]

72. E.R.'s did not used to be able to turn sick people away.

That was pre-Reagan. Now, no cash, or if a bill is owed and you have insurance. You die......that is tragic.
WALL STREET GOVERNMENT

[Gormy Cuss]

45. That wasn't the question. You asserted that " a lot" of the premium goes to that.

Quantify it. What's a lot? 5%? 10%?


eta: here's one link to a progressive site stating it was about 8% in 2005. On a $500/mo premium that's $40. I guess for some people that's "a lot."
http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2009/03/cost_shift.html

[freshwest]

85. What care?

[bvar22]

93. In civilized countries, the term "Medical Bankruptcy" is unknown.

Even after ALL the provisions of the HCR Bill are enacted,
Medical Bankruptcy will STILL be Big Business in the USA!


Lets see what Rahm had to say about the much praised HCR Bill:

"In a Thursday interview, White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel argued that rather than recoiling against Obama, business leaders should be grateful for his support.... on at least a half-dozen counts: his advocacy of greater international trade and education reform open markets despite union skepticism; his rejection of calls from some quarters to nationalize banks during the financial meltdown; the rescue of the automobile industry; the fact that the overhaul of health care preserved the private delivery system; the fact that billions in the stimulus package benefited business with lucrative new contracts, and that financial regulation reform will take away the uncertainty that existed with a broken, pre-crash regulatory apparatus."

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=B2F85DDF-18FE-70B2-A835FE1E7FA8D74C

To fully appreciate how BAD the HCR Bill is,
simply compare it to what is Taken for Granted in civilized countries.

[defendandprotect]

106. America used to be such a place!! Rise of the right wing has completely corrupted our society -- !!

[truedelphi]

19. You can go bankrupt from paying the cost of medical care and

not cost anyone else one damn penny.

I know this because my household did this.

When Kaiser misdiagnosed my husband's condition, it took us months to recover from it. Physically, financially, emotionally etc.

And by the time we did so, we had taken all of our savings, and all of our life savings in the form or retirement monies to save his life.

Oh and as far as a lawsuit, back in 2005-06, weren't any attorneys willing to take on Kaiser. For one thing, in our case they conveniently lost all records of the pertinent visits.

[BzaDem]

24. That does cost others more than a penny.

When someone goes bankrupt and doesn't pay the hospital bills, the doctors still get paid, which means the hospitals (and other providers) still have to recoup the money somehow. This results in higher premiums for everyone else. That's one reason (but far from the only reason) why it's so important to have universal healthcare (in addition to the moral imperative, preventing people from losing their life savings to get medical care, etc).

[Lorien]

35. Another Right Wing talking point. In most States if you can't afford it you DON'T get

any care. In Florida the ER staff simply ignores those who can't show proof of insurance. I know; I've experienced it personally. Got cancer and no insurance? Sorry; make your burial plans now. Those of us who can no longer afford to pay out 1/3 or income for no care "insurance" have experienced it all first hand. You have not.

[truedelphi]

37. Thanks Lorien. I am glad we could back each other up

On this.

Today on his blog, Karl Denninger brings up an important example of what the uninsured are up against - the medical industry is the only industry that can just pull a figure out of the air and charge you that amount. All other industries are required by law to set the exact same fees for the exact same services. But the medical industry had the lobbyists to see to it that a loophole was placed in the legislation to exclude them.

For example - let's say, your sister is insured and she tells you that she found out via a friend who works for the insurer that her mammogram cost her insurer $ 94.

But you go in, without insurance, to have a mammogram, and it costs you $ 375.

Karl's analysis is spot on, and includes the case of a doctor whose bedside "consultation" cost the patient over 20K dollars.

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=182957

[Egnever]

51. So you believe that when you go bankrupt

Those bills are just magically paid by someone else?

[MedicalAdmin]

91. What I believe is this.

Like many my plans for a health emergency is to put a gun to my head and pull the trigger. I will not beggar my family.

The bodies are stacking up. Where's your fiddle Nero?

[blueamy66]

118. I took my fiance to the ER last year...

He had BCBS....the hospital was on the "approved" list.

Too bad that the ER doc didn't accept the BCBS....it was from out of state....Iowa.

If the hospital accepts the insurance, why wouldn't EVERY FUCKING DOC IN THE HOSPITAL accept it?

We're fighting the bills/insurance co/hospital a year fucking later.

[JDPriestly]

59. Good Points, BzaDem.

A lot of people say they don't like Obama's healthcare plan because it makes having insurance mandatory. But that is the point.

We can make healthcare for those who have insurance cheaper if everyone is covered. It sounds odd, but hospitals will not have to care for so many people in the emergency room because many people who now go to emergency rooms will be able to see a primary care physician.

Emergency room care is more expensive than a lot of other health care, so it is common sense to make sure everyone has healthcare and the emergency room is only for real emergencies.

[JDPriestly]

58. Odd. In 2006 in Southern California, Kaiser's records were on their computers.

How could they lose records that were on their computers?

With Kaiser, we can access some of our medical records on our own computers at their website.

Strange that they would lose your records.

[Lorien]

28. BULLSHIT. I'm uninsured and I pay for everything out of pocket or don't get care

that rush Limbaugh/ RW talking point doesn't fly. In Florida if you don't have insurance and you go to the ER-even with a life threatening emergency- chances are you will NEVER see a doctor. I'm still paying tens of thousands of dollars in medical debt. NO ONE gets a "free ride" in America. EVER. The cost of insurance is due to the greed of the CEOs and Wall Street. PERIOD.

And WHY do I no longer have insurance? I'm self employed. During the past 14 years I paid out over $80,000 in premiums and deductibles. Hows much COVERAGE did my insurance company pay in that time? $200.00 worth. That's it. It's a fucking blackmail scheme, nothing more.

[BzaDem]

34. "Hows much COVERAGE did my insurance company pay in that time"

You aren't just paying for yourself -- you are paying for other people. That's how insurance works. If you were just paying for yourself, then the cost of insurance would equal the cost you would pay out of pocket -- for everyone.

Insurance companies are a problem in many ways, but the primary cost driver is provider payments. Saying "I didn't use as much medical care as I paid for in premiums) is obviously not a valid argument, since the whole point of insurance is for some people to pay more than they would need in care, and for some to pay less. The same holds true in any single payer system -- in PHNP's single payer plan, for example, you would be paying 9% of your income for insurance (even if your total medical costs amounted to $200).

[Lorien]

36. Sorry to burst your RW talking point. I bought an INDIVIDUAL PLAN

and NO ONE WITHOUT INSURANCE GETS A "FREE RIDE" IN AMERICA. Go without insurance and try to get care; even a heart attack won't get you to a doctor without proof of insurance. Watch "Sicko' and learn.

The level of your intentional obtuseness is absurd.

[U4ikLefty]

53. obtuseness comes with the pom-poms.

I know this will get deleted, but couldn't resist.

:hide:

[BzaDem]

60. Guess what? An INDIVIDUAL PLAN is still INSURANCE

which means, by definition, many people are going to pay more than they ever use. That's what insurance is.

[bvar22]

100. We're with you.

My wife & I pay every cent out of our pockets.
We haven't been able to afford "Health Insurance" for 7 years.
Our visits to "The Doctor" have been few & far between,
and every cent PAID in FULL!

I resent the SMUG attitude of those who are wealthy enough to afford "Good Insurance"
...blaming ME & My Wife for their overpriced and inadequate product.
Boy, are THEY going to be surprised when the MANDATE is enforced in 2014, and THEIR Premiums don't go down.

The smartest thing the "Centrist New Democrats" did was to delay the MANDATE until AFTER the 2012 elections.
After that disaster Kicks In, "Democrats" will be unelectable for a generation.




Who will STAND and represent THIS American Majority?
Rhetoric, broken promises, and excuses mean NOTHING now.
"By their WORKS you will know them,"
and by their WORKS they will be judged.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donnachaidh]

40. no -- that 500 a month goes to salaries and comps for insurance company ceos

But hey, it's always enlightening to see someone post a right wing talking point here. :sarcasm:

:eyes:

[fasttense]

66. The uninsured are NOT the main cause of the high cost of medical insurance.

When one Health care insurance CEO gets a billion dollar annual salary, that makes your health insurance premiums go up. When a health care insurance corporation has to pay billions in salary and bonuses for several more executives in their corporations, that makes your premiums go up. When a corporation has to buy off a Senator, Rep, or federal regulator, that makes your premiums go up. When a corporations has to hire hundreds of lobbyists, lawyers and tax accountants at half a million dollars a pop, that makes your premiums go up. When a corporation has to buy expensive advertisement and build and staff a 6 story building with assistants and administrators, that makes your premiums go up. When a medical college in cahoots with the government establishes licensing and allowable quotas for doctors in order to reduce and eliminate competition, that makes everyone's costs of health care go up.

Way down at the bottom are the costs of the uninsured. I bet it's equal to a couple of lawyer's salaries.

[fascisthunter]

79. no empathy

numb-dumb

[grahamhgreen]

96. That is a lie. Prove it.

[sabrina 1]

107. No, one third of that $500 goes for profit to the middlemen

who contribute nothing to people's healthcare. All they do is generate a lot of paper work and give themselves big bonuses with money that should be going to pay for real healthcare.

Eliminate those profiteers from the system and the country will be able to cover everyone, as every, single, other civilized country does.

Please stop blaming the sick for us being the only country in the developed world that views health care as a profitable commodity, rather than as a right.

It really is perfectly simple and the rest of the world looks at us in shock and amazement that it is allowed to continue. And it continues because there are always people willing to try to defend it.

[Curmudgeoness]

6. I could not agree more. I consider my health insurance

(which is very much like yours) as catastrophic health insurance. It is uselss for day-to-day health care issues but hopefully would save my ass if something big happens.

As to the costs of all the tests, procedures, etc., I have told my doctor to pretend he is practicing in the 19th century, and try to just treat what he sees. Of course, I have not had any life-threatening issues so far. He doesn't like it, but he plays along because he knows I will not get the tests done anyways. I found that 99% of the time, the treatment would be the same with or without the tests.

[Autumn]

7. I dropped my health insurance the first of March

I was paying out to much for something I couldn't afford to use. I have better uses for that money. I'm going to the Dentist next month for the first time in 4 years. Paying cash, because I have a little extra now.

[NorthCarolina]

77. My partner and I were hit with a substantial rate increase in January of this year

for our BCBS policies, pushing the monthly cost well beyond what we could afford to pay. We have both been without health insurance since that time. Even though we have been together for over 10 years, the simple fact that we are a gay couple precludes us from access to a family plan that could provide us with some savings, and the cost of having to carry two individual policies became prohibitive for us. At this point, the best we can do is to hope for continued health, and should something happen, then to simply die quickly I suppose.

[Autumn]

81. Mine was raised to the point where I couldn't afford it.

I have other expenses. I couldn't afford the co pays, my property taxes went up and we have almost 50 bucks a month more coming out of our pension in taxes. So I said fuck it, I am wasting money giving it to the insurance company for the privilege of having insurance that I can't fucking afford to use.

[NorthCarolina]

82. We certainly understand. We had been using our insurance for little more than an annual checkup,

so it is tough to justify $12k in annual expense in payment for two 15 minute visits with the doctor.

[bvar22]

87. In 2014, 50 MILLION (80+MILLION) Americans will be FORCED...

...to BUY that very same "insurance" that they won't be able to use.
They WILL be PISSED.
They WILL blame the Democrats,
and rightly so.

The "Democrats" passed a Republican Health Insurance SCAM without forcing the Republicans to take ANY responsibility.
All the Republicans have to do id sit back and say, "Yep. We voted against it."


To REALLY appreciate how badly we were screwed with the HCR Bill, simply compare it to what is Taken for Granted in civilized countries.




Who will STAND and represent THIS American Majority?
Rhetoric, broken promises, and excuses mean NOTHING now.
"By their WORKS you will know them,"
and by their WORKS they will be held accountable.

[Autumn]

92. Technically, it was Insurance Finance Reform.

That was what Obama called it. You are absolutely right, that is exactly how it will play out.

[dflprincess]

115. And the only "reform" was to hand the insurance companies a captive set of victims

I'm currently looking for a job and every contract house that calls me mainly has jobs for UnitedHealth Group and they tell me that it's because of health "care" reform.

Go out to Monster or CareerBuilder and look at how many jobs UHG has open. Strangely, the 3 big non-profit insurers in Minnesota (Blue Cross/Blue Shield MN, Medica & Healthpartners) are not hiring in such large numbers - of course none of them operate outside of the state.

It's pretty clear who the big winners were with the "Affordable Care Act". (I :puke: everytime I hear that title)

[xchrom]

9. all that money being spent on just that one item{health care}

in your family budget.

and one wonders why americans can't get ahead.

it's a crime.

[revolutionnow45]

11. THIS is what keeps getting left out on the debate about Unions and state budgets

Insurance companies are draining the budgets of every state, and at 30% increases every year it is clearly unsustainable.

People are already at the point where they can't even use their insurance because deductibles and copays are so high...why they hell are we paying insurance companies so much for NOTHING! It is extortion.

Not For Profit NOW!

We need to all go Vermont on these greedy assholes. ABOLISH INSURANCE!!!

[rbnyc]

13. + 1 (nt)

[Amaril]

14. I feel your pain

I had to forgoe a medical procedure last fall -- it isn't needed to "save" my life, but it would greatly improve my quality of life -- becuase I have a $2,000 deductible. I sure as hell don't have an extra $2000 lying around (actually, my portion would be about $2300 with the deductible and my co-pay) and my doctor won't do the procedure unless I walk into her office with a check for the full amount in my hand (actually, she's no longer my doctor -- I fired her after this).

Fuck the entire system.

[sarcasmo]

16. Good for you. Greed knows no bounds in this country and the medical industry is among the Greediest.

[Amaril]

17. It wasn't her "greed" per se

that made me fire her - it was that when she - mistakenly - assumed that I had a bulging checkbook, she provided 5-star care (called me personally when she was considering doing a different procedure to discuss it with me, called me a second time to go over my pre-op meds and what reactions I could expect, etc.), but as soon as she found out I was flat-ass broke, that all stopped. She didn't even return a call from the message I left with her billing manager asking 1) can we arrange a payment plan or alternately 2) is there a drug therapy I could try in the interim until I could save up the funds to pay for the procedure.

I understand her need to make a living and I don't fault her for it. What I fault her for -- and what I fired her for -- is treating patients (the have's vs. the have-not's) with different standards of care. That, to me, is inexcusable, a gross violation of the Hypocratic Oath, and a violation of the trust I would have to place in her as a patient.

[sarcasmo]

41. The fact she assumed you had a bulging checkbook points to greed, good on you for dumping her.

[Lorien]

30. The last plan I had (best I could afford) had a $10,000 deductible

another had a $12,000 deductible, and both had a 20% copay after that was met. I never could afford to use my "insurance".

[Spike89]

15. Screwed either way

Faced with the option of adding my wife to my insurance this past fall after she'd been layed off and lost her own coverage, we looked at the approximately $7,000 cost of paying the premiums, deductables, and copays and decided it wasn't something we could afford, especially with her out of work. Well, of course, she recently needed to go to the emergency room with an embolism (blood clots in her lungs following a long train trip). The bill we just received is for more than $10,000! They (the hospital) are willing to take payments and no interest, and have been great in many ways. However, they would have also given the insurance company a huge discount that we can't get.
We'll be paying for this a long time, but even so, if she doesn't have significant medical problems for the next 16 months, we'll have come out ahead by not having insurance. It is a terrible strain on our budget, I work for a non-profit and don't make that much and of course my wife can't work at all for a while (even if there were a job available).
A huge factor in our decision not to insure her was my very recent bad experience with insurers. I play softball in a city league and took a wicked bad bounce directly to my mouth. It knocked out 6 of my lower teeth, broke my upper dentures, almost severed my tongue (40 stitches!) and seriously cut my lips (more stitches). All told, bills ran to about $8,000...insurance paid less than $1,000! I have both dental and medical, but the dental said it was a medical expense and the medical insurance said the dental needed to pay first...neither company paid...I'm making payments on those bills.
Insurance sucks, you're likely to go bankrupt whether you have it not if you need major care and it isn't worth the price for minor care.

[Generic Other]

18. the only thing all of us asked those doofuses in congress to do

make healthcare affordable and they screwed it up!

[starzdust]

69. Well, actually they were...

wholly owned subsidiaries, bought and sold by the gereeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedy insurance companies. The only way to move beyond this point, as I see it, is to vote for those running for state an federal congresses who will pledge to go to a single payer model and put the medical insurance companies.

However, I say, FAT CHANCE of that happening in my life time.

[mdmc]

20. ditto

[Shagbark Hickory]

21. Medical tourism. For what you paid for your strep throat test, you probably could have flown to

another country and had an appendectomy or something.

[Divernan]

73. I had a top quality root canal in Belize for $36.50 US currency.

Following a freak scuba diving accident which broke off a front cap and exposed the nerve to seawater, I ended up flying from the coast to the capitol, Belize City, to see the family dentist of my Belizean emergency physician. Painfree procedure, and he gave me an x-ray and detailed description for (size of drill bit, depth of drilling, etc.) my US dentist. My US Dentist said the procedure had been perfectly done.

The Belizean dentist was apologetic about having to charge me $36.50.

[ThatsMyBarack]

120. ....

:wow: +1! :thumbsup:

[grahamhgreen]

97. This is exactly why they had to pass mandatory insurance- its cheaper to go overseas.

[BzaDem]

22. While insurance is part of the problem, the much larger problem is payments to medical providers.

For example, you are paying $100 for an emergency room visit. That is actually very cheap compared to what the emergency room charges the insurance company (often in the thousands).

Since the first of the year, the healthcare bill has limited administrative non-medical-care costs to 15% of total premiums (forcing them to refund the difference if they spend more). So most of the premiums you and your employer are spending go to you or someone else's medical care. That is by far the biggest problem: exploding medical costs. All insurance companies could be turned to non-profit tomorrow, and your premiums/deductibles would not change by a huge amount (so long as providers can continue to charge the rates they are charging).

The only way to fix the healthcare cost problem is by having some sort of price controls on provider payments (either directly, or indirectly through something like single payer).

[rbnyc]

26. Good point. (nt)

[eridani]

27. Price controls would also be applied to providers' suppliers

Pay for medical education inaddition to that, and you'd have a situation like most other countries, where doctors don't charge as much because they don't need to.

[slipslidingaway]

50. Too bad the Dems took single payer off the table ...

and that started with the Obama HC summit a couple of months after he took office.

:mad:

[BzaDem]

61. I think it had far more to do with the fact that Single payer wouldn't get 10 votes in the Senate

than anything to do with Obama.

[bvar22]

90. It certainly won't get any votes...

...when it is taken Off the Table BEFORE any discussion.

The American People needed to HEAR the TRUTH that Medicare Expansion would Cost LESS and provide MORE.

But no. Those who tried to point that out were thrown in jail.

[Cameron27]

105. The American people

were getting it, finally. We were so close. That's why it was kept off the table, that's why they gave us a dog & pony show while the real deals were made behind closed doors. Tools.

[slipslidingaway]

108. Single payer sure scared many people, scared them enough to not...

even allow any discussion. If the idea was to reduce costs and provide care for all why keep one of the best ideas off the table and invite many of the for profit companies to the WH.

Imagine if P. Obama had called upon Dr. Maria Angell to speak at the WH summit instead of Karen Ignagni
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/slipslidingaway/4

Karen Ignagni, head of AHIP and a group that helped to discredit SICKO - sure Obama called on her to speak.

[Hoyt]

52. What do you propose, paying less to providers than Medicare or Mediciaid?

[BzaDem]

62. The whole system needs price controls, which would certainly result in much lower cost growth

than Medicare or private care costs in this country (just like every other modern industrialized nation). It doesn't take a calculator to realize that medical provider costs growing at three times inflation is not sustainable in any way.

[Hoyt]

110. That's the problem, medical provider costs are not growing at 3 times inflation.

Most of the annual increase in health care cost is due more to increasing services to an expanding population of beneficiaries. Provider costs have been controlled for a number of years under both Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance. Most, but no all, private insurers pay providers more per service than Medicare and Medicaid. But, most don't pay a whole lot more.

My point is bringing this up, is not to disagree with you, but to point out that any real decrease in medical costs and premiums -- after a one time savings in getting for profit insurers out of the system -- is going to require some rationing, denial of some services, and a major change in the way services are provided. Personally, I think that is necessary and can probably be achieved without impacting needed care too much. But there is no way to achieve affordable premiums without attacking utilization, putting restrictions on some services, and changing the delivery system.

Sadly, folks on both sides are going to whine about any perceived cuts in services. Even if it is to all of our benefit.

[BzaDem]

117. The reason Medicare is only somewhat lower than private insurer-paid provider costs

(rather than significantly lower) is because if it was significantly lower, doctors would stop accepting Medicare. There comes a point where even the giant pool of customers Medicare offers isn't enough to attract doctors at a certain price (when they could instead just accept private patients that pay much more).

That's why the whole system needs to have cost controls. If private costs are left to continue growing at the current rate, Medicare costs will of course continue growing with them (to incentivize doctors to keep covering Medicare patients).

[ThatsMyBarack]

23. When I went for a physical last year....

My insurance co. tried to get away with denying me coverage and forcing me to pay every penny out-of-pocket (over a grand!) for some routine medical tests. Of course I found this out on a Friday so my whole weekend was ruined. When Monday morning finally came and I got a live person on the phone at the insurance company, she said that I wasn't covered for routine medical checkups and tests because I was over 12 years old!

When I asked to speak with her supervisor, she said, "I AM the supervisor."

When I called my physician about this, she refiled my bill to insurance under a different "code" and they took off $500. Unfortunately, my physician at that time, whom my mom and I had chosen for her strong fights against insurance crooks, left to pursue other interests in the medical field. She has since been replaced by a new lady doctor. I haven't seen her at all yet, and I'm afraid to. She may not have the same clout against the insurance crroks like my previous doctor did--and I may end up shelling out big $$$ just to make sure I am healthy!

[kudzu22]

25. $2000 is nothing. You need health insurance for when the bill is $40,000

Like I have. I have a serious condition and my medical expenses are through the roof. Because I have insurance my annual out-of-pocket maximum is $3,200. I expect to pay that every year.

[rbnyc]

39. Your situation is worse...

...but 2 grand is not nothing. And I have god-damned health insurance, so I should be in a position where I am not accumulating medical debt.

[slipslidingaway]

47. People need to look at annual out of pocket maximum, not just the deductible..

ours is 11K, and we are looking at that each year for the foreseeable future. The other policy that was available to us would have precluded us from being treated at some of the best centers in the US ... no wonder over 50% of medical bankruptcies happen to people who have insurance.

:shrug:

Our bills are at least what yours are this year times 10, so yes we are happy to have insurance, as for the future we'll see what happens. Good luck :)

[anneboleyn]

114. Me too. I know exactly what you mean, the bills easily go over 100k a year.

[RB TexLa]

33. Working families??? You mean working Americans, right? You are just as concerned with what single

and childfree couples pay for their health insurance? Because you consider us to be equal human beings, right?

[rbnyc]

38. Of course.

My rant was pretty personal. But of course health care is a human right.

At the same time, I was single for 35 years. It's a different set of concerns when you can't afford groceries and you have a child. And many times when I was single, I chose to opt out of health insurance and take a larger paycheck. That's also a different choice when you have a kid.

But you are totally right. I didn't mean to be exclusive. I was just focused on my own situation.

[pitohui]

43. same here

i figure we have to have it in case of a huge accident or major illness like cancer so we don't lose our house but for strep throat? no way i'm going to the doctor for strep throat...i'm afraid that's what garlic is for

you think i'm joking, i'm not

why test for strep throat? they know when it's going around, they just wanna jack you for several hundred dollars, i can't afford to humor them when i'm not able to work

i have filed complaints w. our insurance commission and gotten some money back from ridiculous bills but i have to pick my battles or risk not being taken seriously so, i'm sure not going to the doctor for the picky little shit when i already know what i have and what they're gonna tell me, what's the point

in my case, a lot of people in the area had it, it was obvious i too had it, so i just had to rely on an old antibiotic script i'd been holding in the fridge, guess it worked, i'm still alive...

as far as these fucking tests, in my opinion, if a doctor orders tests, he should have to pay for it, that would put a quick end to a lot of this unnecessary and abusive testing

[bvar22]

109. You will still lose your house,

unless you can pay 20% of $500,000 out of petty cash.

Even after ALL the provisions of the "historic" HCR are implemented,
Medical Bankruptcy will STILL be Big Business in the USA.

In civilized countries, the term "Medical Bankruptcy" is unknown.

[freshwest]

44. This system stole my family's life. F^@k them.

[w8liftinglady]

48. I agree. It IS insane

at the height of my illness,I was spending $200/week on copays and meds...with GREAT insurance.
I sold blood and pawned everything I had.
I see people every day who are in even worse shape.
My patients are stressed not only by illness,but also by dire financial straits.
I want to help them all.I try so hard.

I am hoping to get into grad school to be a nurse practitioner.if I do,I will donate one day/week helping people stay out of the hospital.
It fucking sucks.

[slipslidingaway]

49. Insurance does not guarantee care ...

as you have noted. Good luck with going back to school, we should be paying you for your dedication to others.

:)

[Armstead]

54. You are correct 100 poercent....The Denmiocrats should stop propping up this racket

[Welibs]

55. WELL SAID!!

Have you ever tried to say something over and over but you just can't get it right? You took the thoughts right out of my head but that I couldn't get them right I'm so frustrated and sick of the games our leadership is playing with our lives. And I live in Canada where it's not as bad as the US. However we will not recover fully if the US doesn't recover, so the whole world is hurting. I think there is going to be a lot of unrest for the next year and a half until 2012, then we can put the country back together AGAIN. But I will say that the world is getting sick of these stupid people that are warring on a black man in the WH and hurting the entire global economy! Fucking Assholes!!!

I hope things get better for you and your family. I too am on the edge and I was making good money until 3 years ago. I am not sure either my husbands or my company can make to 2012 and we are all invested in the US economy. They keep inviting the world in and then bankrupting them.

My whole family lives in the US and I married a Canadian. I have health care and I don't get a bill. The bullshit Republicans have spread about universal health care is sickening and they should be censured for misleading the public with outright lies.

Better days are ahead!

[SoCalDemGrrl]

56. That's exactly the point- the co-pays are there to prevent us from seeking

any treatment for anything.

It's a RACKET!!!

I pay $500 a month for insurance too and I just broke my arm. I thought I had a $1,000 deductible on my PPO plan, but so far (and I have not even received all the bills) - my co payments are almost $5,000!!!

One hospital bill was $22,000, the emergency room $16,000. It's ridiculous!!

You get sick or have an accident and you risk bankruptcy in the good old USofA.

[byronius]

57. Right there with you. And just as pissed off.

Medicare For All. Now.

[aero56]

63. Health Ins

Friend, I can relate to what you are saying. I have so many medical bills to pay I will never catch up. Plus, my husband is now in a nursing home; medicaid took 75% of our entire income. I can't see above the water, so to speak. Plus, his hospital bills, and such are not paid and these agencies are trying to get me to pay them. The insurance doesn't pay everything, and in some cases doesn't pay at all. I want national health care.

[JCMach1]

64. Capitalism on the march!

:sarcasm:

[GTurck]

65. Doesn't get any better...

We have retiree health insurance for $150 which now covers only medicines and a few odds and ends but who really knows what. This used to be free and comprehensive. We supplemented that with another insurance for $194 a month. And these two are supplements to our Medicare that now costs $204 a month. I am doubling everything for my husband and I so don't scream at my math.
All of this out of Social Security and Pension that amounts to almost $2,800 a month. We thought we did all the right things but now it is almost 20% of what we have just to stay covered. We also have co-pays and deductibles. What happens when we get really sick I have no idea and while reasonably healthy now (my husband had colo-rectal cancer 5 years ago before it got so bad financially)we are nearing the end of our lives and I am scared that means we will have paid and paid and still will have to just lay down and die.

[Orrex]

67. I concur completely

I've been ranting here @ DU on and off for several years about this very issue. We hear fairly often about the problem of the uninsured millions, but the population faces an even bigger problem in the form of the unaffordably insured.

In practice, if you can't afford to pay more than, say, $100 for a medical procedure, then it doesn't matter if you're billed $1,000 for it or $250,000. Insurance is set up so that you simply can't use it, but you have to keep paying in. It's engineered to maximize profit for the insurer, so it's in the insurer's interest to make sure that you don't run up a bill.

K/R!

[starzdust]

68. It's an American Disease called...

Greedy Capitalism

And I agree, WTF?

[Pharaoh]

70. Check out some HMO's in your area.

Mine is GHC Group Health Cooperative in Madison WI.

Rated in the top 10 in the nation.


Health (insurance) is not Health care, it's a scam. HMO's are not for profit, which is why they have been demonized by Insurance company's for years.

[dotymed]

71. A high percentage of "medical bankruptcies"

are filed by people WITH health insurance. I am trying to raise the money to file and I have insurance. I also have heart failure, and a few other conditions.... I have 6 stents. I average 1 or two a year. Social Security "Dr.'s disagree with my very prestigious Dr.'s and say I can work. I "can earn at least $1000.00 a month, therefore I am ineligible for SS disability. That just means that my health insurance will soon end (Union, God bless them)and I will die.
It costs $1200.00 in TN to file B.R. through a lawyer. With all of the new rules, you have to use one here.
My Mother is 75, in poor health and wants to will me a nice home. If I do not file B.R., 6 months before that happens (please never), the hospital creditors can take it all.
WALL STREET GOVERNMENT.

[rbnyc]

76. That sucks.

As I was reading, I was remembering how many stories like this came up during the presidential campaign. Then I relive every moment of the whole health care debate and all the partisan bullshit and corporate power that makes it totally impossible to ever create any policy that makes sense and serves people.

[abelenkpe]

74. Both my hubby n I work

Ang get insurance for our family thru work. We have good jobs with supposedly good insurance benefits When our son was born prematurely and needed to stay in NICU we were told after one week that he would be sent home cause insurance wouldn't pay for it. He weighed a little over four pounds at the time. We were shocked and asked what was up. Turns out in CA there's no benefit to being double covered. Since then our costs (amount taken out of our checks) have gone up up up and our benefits slashed. For example, recently went to get eyes examined and was told I needed to pay for exam up front as insurance wouldn't cover exam. (I passed on appointment) Needed to get antibiotics for my daughter when she had strep, insurance wouldn't cover it. (90 bucks btw) Went to dentist and cleaning was covered but forget anything else. Again we're paying more and getting far less.

The owner of the company I work for (great company great boss) has done ads for CA One Care and is not happy about the situation. He says our company loses work to companies in other countries for two reasons: high cost of providing health insurance (other countries have universal healthcare) and tax incentives from other countries. So seems like having single payer would help companies compete in a global marketplace and keep jobs in the US.

Also, my pop was a health insurance CEO before he retired. He said the only way to bring costs down was to be part of a large group. The larger the group the better the savings. He's a republican but knows the math supports single payer as the only real solution. And despite what some may claim it's not the poor or needy driving up costs. It is our aging society and the high cost of administration.

Of course creating more poor and needy people by laying off workers and slashing their benefits isn't going to help which is why everything the republicans are attempting to do by going after unions isn't just an attack on union workers but an attack on all workers.

[rbnyc]

111. OMG

Medical professionals must be so sick of having insurance companies make decisions for them. 4 pounds!

And here's just one more reason my small businesses can't compete. If you have 5,000 employees, you can get a break. But if you're a 2.5 million dollar operation, you have to drop down to the total-crap insurance because you can't possibly cover the premiums for near-crap insurance for your 25 employees. And it still nearly drives you out of business.

[Butch350]

75. Hang in there Buddy...

I'll say a blessing prayer for you. If I could give ya a million bucks - I would.

[rbnyc]

112. Thanks Butch.

I posted that in the middle of the work day, after spending about half an hour at my desk with sudden-onset Tourette's Syndrome when I found out we had to pay for that strep test.

Your prayer is MUCH appreciated.

[joanbarnes]

80. Ditto. I try to stay healthy and just not go. WTF?

[tpsbmam]

83. Just squeaked in in time to K&R and say I agree with all the outrage voiced here. nt

[proud patriot]

88. Same for us . My disabled son requires many tests

Every year we fall further in medical debt because our Insurance
nickle$500. dimes$1000. us .

Nothing we can do , the rich and politicians just want us peasants in Debtors Jail.

[ThatsMyBarack]

119. Exactly!

+1 for you and your son!

[HillWilliam]

89. I got laid off last week

When the owners presented the insurance premiums for continued (shitty) coverage the tab was well over the amount my mortgage payment is. Guess what I'm doing without; it won't be my house.

The kicker is I'm in pretty good health. I'm the only one on the policy; no dependants.

Legalized f'ing extortion.

BTW, anyone need a highly-experience multirelational database programmer in central NC?

Sigh.

[colsohlibgal]

94. This Is What the Obama Health Care Apologists Do Not Get

Yes the bill does some good.....but overall it is a cash windfall for the insurance leeches that are bankrupting people.

What did the bill do to contain cost? We're still stuck with premiums through the roof and then co pays and deductibles that are exorbitant. All so a batch of CEOs and top execs can make multi millions off us.

All in tandem with our jobs being shipped overseas and people used to a middle class job now working two shifts at a Citgo or something.

And it is all enabled by people who continually get manipulated to vote against their own self interest.

[riverbendviewgal]

95. If You can why not move to Vermont.

Sounds like they will have a similar health care system like in Ontario Canada.

Us Canadians will not change our health care system for anything.

[bvar22]

103. Vermont will probably see an influx of "immigrants".

They may have to build a wall or something.

Cutting out the "Insurance Scam" of a 30% rake off the top WILL lower the costs somewhat,
but the REAL cost savings will come from a NATIONAL Publicly Owned, Government Administered program.

The population of Vermont won't be enough to realize the savings from a greatly expanded Risk Pool (everyone IN). In that respect, organizing Health care on a State by State basis may be a step in the wrong direction.
Overhead will have to be duplicated (redundant) in each state, and moving to another state could become a nightmare.
If too many sick people "immigrate" to Vermont, the wheels could come off.

This development could also dampen the public support for a national System.

[TheKentuckian]

116. This is a huge worry. Vermont is not a Canadian province operating in a much more conducive

environment.

United Health may have pools approaching the population of Vermont. I pray for the best and have some hope but it is a dicer proposition than we want to admit.

[grahamhgreen]

98. Medicare for all is the answer.

[GETPLANING]

99. Why Americans pay so much for so little

America treats healthcare as a risk, while the rest of the civilized word treats it as a cost. That's why Americans pay twice as much for health services as the rest of the world, and get results that are no better.
There is no risk of getting sick. Disease does not care if people have health "insurance" or not. People get sick, they get care, and society pays the COST. Adding a layer of for-profit business to "manage the risk" is insanity.
And Republicans will fight to the death for it.

[Desertrose]

101. Exactly!!! nt

[bvar22]

102. "Centrist Democrats" will fight to the death to preserve our For Profit system too!

Here, Rahm actually crows to the Chamber of Commerce about their victory in preserving the For Profit system:

"In a Thursday interview, White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel argued that rather than recoiling against Obama, business leaders should be grateful for his support.... on at least a half-dozen counts: his advocacy of greater international trade and education reform open markets despite union skepticism; his rejection of calls from some quarters to nationalize banks during the financial meltdown; the rescue of the automobile industry; the fact that the overhaul of health care preserved the private delivery system; the fact that billions in the stimulus package benefited business with lucrative new contracts, and that financial regulation reform will take away the uncertainty that existed with a broken, pre-crash regulatory apparatus."

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=B2F85DDF-18FE-70B2-A835FE1E7FA8D74C

To fully appreciate how BAD the HCR Bill is,
simply compare it to what is Taken for Granted in civilized countries.

[rbnyc]

113. Fuckin' A Right!

That is so right!

[defendandprotect]

104. 76%+ of the nation wanted single payer, government run health care -- and Obama??

Obama made back room deals with Big Pharma and the private health care industry

to secure their profits -- while killing Medicare negotiation with drug companies --

and with the private h/c industry to ensure that there would be no single-payer system!!

And then Rahm Emmanuel "crowed" about it -- how great they were for business and how

they had saved the PRIVATE health care industry!!



The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

[slipslidingaway]

121. kick nt

[treestar]

122. Being self employed, I have the same thing

A high premium and high deductible. So long as I'm lucky enough to not be really sick, I pay for everything out of pocket, including those annual tests to prove I don't have cancer.

The insurance is there in case something horrid occurs.

I haven't found it worth cussing others out about it, though.