WHO ARE THE REBELS?? UK TELEGRAPH -- WikiLeaks cables warn of EXTREMIST beliefs

[Distant Observer]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8365432/Libya-WikiLeaks-cables-warn-of-extremist-beliefs.html

Leaked diplomatic cables obtained by the WikiLeaks website and passed to The Daily Telegraph disclose fears that eastern Libya is being overrun by extremists intent on overthrowing Colonel Gaddafi's regime.

. . .

Former jihadi fighters who underwent "religious and ideological training" in Afghanistan, Lebanon and the West Bank in the 1980s have returned to eastern towns in Libya such as Benghazi and Derna to propagate their Islamist beliefs, the cables warn.

Derna has become a particular stronghold for the former fighters and conservative imams who have shut down "un-Islamic" social and cultural organisations such as sports leagues, theatres and youth clubs, the cables report

...

It continues: "Citing conversations with relatives, xxxxxxxxxxxx said the unemployed, disfranchised young men of eastern Libya 'have nothing to lose' and are therefore 'willing to sacrifice themselves' for something greater than themselves by engaging in extremism in the name of religion.




Is this internal U.S. government analysis MISGUIDED PROPAGANDA??

Or is it just the kind of factual information that was acknowledged before the decision was made that
Gadddafi leadership would never serve Western interests.

Now the official story is that "peaceful protestors were forced to take up arms" by Gaddafi crackdown. This "official story" is totally false, but that does not seem to matter.

[NightWatcher]

1. we'll support the Mujahideen then be surprised when they become Al Qaeda

damned how that history thing just keeps repeating.

What we should have learned before, that a cause is being co-opted by people who want to do something else completely in the matter.

WE DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE PEOPLE OF LIBYA! Stop fooling yourselves. We want to sell arms/security to a country that happens to sit in a very interesting location in the World.

[Distant Observer]

2. There is likely good and bad in the "Rebels" and "Al Qaeda." What I hate is the lies and hypocrisy

that is used to manipulate people into killing one another and supporting the killing.

[walldude]

12. +1

We are nothing if not consistent. Spend years arming two bit dictators and then act all surprised and outraged when they actually use those weapons. Then, spend more money on more weapons to combat the weapons we sold to the dictator who is now using them to kill his own people.

It's a hell of a strategy.

[in_cog_ni_to]

3. We could be getting totally played here. From what I heard on MSNBC

from a Mideast "terrorism" expert: The rebels we see are a group that separated from Al Qaeda because they weren't in agreement with the extreme religious views of the radical group. I'm not so sure I believe that, but that's the "story" Hillary got in ?Paris?.

We really could be getting played. However, that same terrorism expert said that Al Qaeda is known to be in Libya and are very good at taking advantage at any opportunity handed them to take over. He went on to say, IF Al Qaeda does try to move in to take over, the coalition will be on them "like flies on you know what." The coalition knows where the Al Qaeda groups are in Libya and ANY movement from them...will bring an attack from the coalition.

Hillary met with 2 men who organized the rebels and the revolt.

[aquart]

6. Al qaeda from which tribes?

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. No clue. n/t

[Distant Observer]

8. Their leader, King Idris, was both a political ruler and head of the Senussi Muslim order

He was first a religious leader before being recognized by the British and Italians under the new title Emir of the territory of Cyrenaica. The British appointed him King of the newly minted Libya (combining other North African provinces under his rule) as a reward for sending Cyrenaican fighters into battle against the Italians and the Germans during WW II. After Gaddafi overthrew Idris, Cyrenaicans lost their position of relative priviledge and power and have nutured quiet rebellion for the last 40 years with occasional revolts and coup attempts.

Gaddafi, himself, is a Bedouin -- a desert dweller - with Berber and Jewish ancestry and his regime, while Islamic, has tended to support religious tolerance. Some of controversial ideological and religious polemics have cause him
to be branded a heretic by the Saudis.

[damntexdem]

4. Who are the teabaggers, including those elected to the U.S. Congress?

DUleaks warn of extremist beliefs.

[aquart]

5. 120 tribes. Which ones are you referring to?

My favorites are the ones who want to kill Gaddafi because they suddenly believe he's Jewish.

If the rest of Libya is prosperous and these men can't get jobs or afford to marry, then they have an honest beef with their government NO MATTER WHAT THEIR RELIGION IS. And Gaddafi made a stupid strategic error that is going to destroy him.

To make a conservative, you must first give him something to conserve. Revolution is pointless when you're happy and comfy.

The inability of this odd article to identify the tribes involved is really suspicious to me. Like a propaganda piece written by someone who doesn't know the country.

[Distant Observer]

11. The Daily Telegraph does not mention tribes or Al Qaeda, just the Eastern province

and the ferment of Islamic passions that the Leaked Cables were citing

[JoseGaspar]

18. Normally, when they say "tribes"...

...they mean the Zuwayya. The problem is that much of this isn't tribal at all. There was no "Kingdom of Libya". The Brits made it up as they did with so much else in their colonial crapola. In Libya, they didn't even have much time. Libya was Italian before WW2 and Ottoman before 1912. These "tribes" are sometimes simple families, sometimes a regional description, sometimes ethnic, and sometimes they are actually "tribes"... like the Zuwayya.

Still, the idea of "democratic-minded" Cyrenaicans in revolt is truly ironic... even better than the "territorial integrity" of SOUTH Vietnam.

[BOG PERSON]

7. there was a time when LIBERTY, EQUALITY + BROTHERHOOD

were considered "extremist beliefs"

f.y.i.

[Waiting For Everyman]

9. How many are we talking about exactly?

5... 50... 500... If this is such an established fact, there must be some idea?

Btw, I'd think it's rather easy to pay anyone to be an "extremist" when they are broke. Case in point, the foreign mercenaries by the tens of thousands in Libya right now who are the bulk of Gaddafi's "loyalists".

How many of these "extremists" and "terrorists" who are cited so often, are native Libyans vs. how many foreign?

[Distant Observer]

14. Leaked Cables talks about the Islamic fervor in the East from a couple years ago

This is long running power struggle.

[Waiting For Everyman]

21. How many? Still no numbers.

And no "foreign vs. domestic" estimate?

It could be the famous "Two Guys from Brooklyn".

[blindpig]

10. Yep, we are being played again.

It ain't just about Libyan oil, it's about 'managing' the Arab Revolution, sowing doubt and confusion, before the really big oil patches are consumed.

Good luck on getting to the 'greatest', people hate having their delusions disabused.

[Distant Observer]

24. Libya has been very conservative in exploiting its oil - huge untapped reserves

[Amonester]

13. Strange that for years and years here....

Any internal U.S. government analysis was nothing but MISGUIDED PROPAGANDA

Now it's supposed to be the absolute truth...

Strange how fast DU changed...

[emulatorloo]

16. Good point. depends on what is the most convenient for the argument of the day.

The other strange thing is the "WHO ARE THE REBELS" stuff is in heavy rotation on Fox News. Not saying our posters are Fox Viewers, it is just an interesting co-incidence.

[Amonester]

22. There are 'agendas' in plays.

But sometimes, I would advise 'observing' the past before putting up anything that seems to fit the 'agenda-du-jour'.

Since it's an ongoing (and violent) event in which not too many here can claim to 'have a say' that would make any difference in the matter, it's normal that some people feel very concerned about 'what-the-eff-will-happen' if it works out the way they FEAR (or seem convinced) will happen.

Nevertheless, whichever effing way this 'affair' (which we don't have a say in order to 'change' anything about it to our liking) ends, it's not like Libya will be completely cut-off and isolated from the rest of the world, and particularly from any U.N. monitoring, like Afghanistan was in the late 80s.

If it was to be regarded in that sense (to begin with), it already IS different.

[Travelman]

23. It's certainly not limited to Fox

There were questions about who the rebels are a couple of mornings ago on BBC America. I listened to a bit of it while I was getting ready for work.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/sc-dc-0326-us-libya-20110325,0,3279029.story">The LAT reports on questions about who the rebels are.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/03/25/libya_rebels">Here's Salon questioning who they are.


There are probably a few more out there, but this certainly shows that it's not just Fox who is asking who the rebels are.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. Some cables from 2008, and who was the source then?

The Telegraph article doesn't say. It was, of course, a good move for Gaddafi then to say "Al Qaeda is a problem in Libya, better let me deal with them". And that is just what he has been saying recently too. Do you believe him? It's just as convenient for him to blame everying on Islamic terrorists as it is for any right wing American.

But the general tenor of the cables is "the youth don't have anything to look forward to under Gaddafi, so some are turning towards 'jihad'". 3 years later, we find them advocating democracy, and a typical analysis is this:

"The people of the region have chosen a different means of protest and empowerment. For now, al Qaeda is hemmed in."

Al Qaeda has reacted slowly and uncertainly to the uprisings against repressive rule in the Arab world, uncomfortably aware that the revolts have had nothing to do with its advocacy of suidical bloodshed or strict Islamic rule.

Outside a tiny community of Islamist fanatics, a claim by an al Qaeda spokesman that the group was the main inspiration of the revolts has been met with ridicule in the region.

But some Western governments are worried that deepening instability and violence in Libya could give Osama bin Laden's group growing opportunities to recruit and organise.

http://af.reuters.com/article/egyptNews/idAFLDE72N0E220110324?sp=true

Basically, saying there were some Al Qaeda members in Eastern Libya 3 years ago does not mean that the leaders of the current rebellion are Al Qaeda.

If anything, it sounds like those taking charge are Libyans who used to hold a bit of power under Gaddafi, but who jumped ship early:

The National Transitional Council moved ahead on Wednesday (March 23rd) with building a team for the new Libya.

Former international affairs envoy and new Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril named Libya's former chief diplomat, Ali Al-Isawi, to head foreign affairs and handed senior rebel commander Khalifa Hafter the defence portfolio.

Tripoli will be the seat of the new government, once the city has been liberated, Council spokesman Abdelhafiz Ghogha said.

http://www.magharebia.com/cocoon/awi/xhtml1/en_GB/features/awi/features/2011/03/24/feature-01

In Benghazi, the two military stars of the revolution were presented to an adoring public. General Abdul Fatah Younis had been Gaddafi’s Interior Minister before defecting to the uprising, while Colonel Khalifa Hafter, a former head of Gaddafi’s army in Chad, had recently returned from exile in America to lend the rebel ground forces some tactical coherence.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367766/Libya-ceasefire-All-world-knows-Gaddafi-liar.html#ixzz1HdnKw0RQ

If anything, the worry should be that the rebel leaders are just Gaddafis from a new generation.

[Distant Observer]

17. The "Leadership" face to the West tells very little -- Just convenient front men

who for whatever reason -- tribal alliances or opportunism -- have decide to join the Western-supported revolt.

We don't know. We can tell somethings from the societal pattern in the East -- more Arabist, Conservative and Islamist than around Tripoli. Benghazi, for example, operates more like Saudi Arabia (institutions, dress code etc) than the socially tolerant Tripoli.

[emulatorloo]

20. Telegraph is the CONSERVATIVE paper. I pay more attention to the GUARDIAN