Was the situation in Libya a threat to international peace and security on March 16, 2011?

[MrCoffee]

It's not a trick question. It's the basis for the UN Security Council invoking Chapter VII of the UN charter and authorizing military action.

Please note that I used the UN Security Council terminology when referring to it as a "situation". That's what they called it in Resolution 1973.

What say you? International threat, yes or no?

[whoneedstickets]

1. They invoked it under the responsibility to protect clause

Go back to the drawing board.

[MrCoffee]

3. This is completely outside Article VII, which is the basis for S/Res 1973

[whoneedstickets]

5. Read the text of UNSC 1973

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10200.doc.htm

“The Security Council,

“Recalling its resolution 1970 (2011) of 26 February 2011,

“Deploring the failure of the Libyan authorities to comply with resolution 1970 (2011),

“Expressing grave concern at the deteriorating situation, the escalation of violence, and the heavy civilian casualties,

“Reiterating the responsibility of the Libyan authorities to protect the Libyan population and reaffirming that parties to armed conflicts bear the primary responsibility to take all feasible steps to ensure the protection of civilians,

“Condemning the gross and systematic violation of human rights, including arbitrary detentions, enforced disappearances, torture and summary executions,

“Further condemning acts of violence and intimidation committed by the Libyan authorities against journalists, media professionals and associated personnel and urging these authorities to comply with their obligations under international humanitarian law as outlined in resolution 1738 (2006),

“Considering that the widespread and systematic attacks currently taking place in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya against the civilian population may amount to crimes against humanity,

“Recalling paragraph 26 of resolution 1970 (2011) in which the Council expressed its readiness to consider taking additional appropriate measures, as necessary, to facilitate and support the return of humanitarian agencies and make available humanitarian and related assistance in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Expressing its determination to ensure the protection of civilians and civilian populated areas and the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian assistance and the safety of humanitarian personnel,

“Recalling the condemnation by the League of Arab States, the African Union and the Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference of the serious violations of human rights and international humanitarian law that have been and are being committed in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Taking note of the final communiqué of the Organization of the Islamic Conference of 8 March 2011, and the communiqué of the Peace and Security Council of the African Union of 10 March 2011 which established an ad hoc High-Level Committee on Libya,

“Taking note also of the decision of the Council of the League of Arab States of 12 March 2011 to call for the imposition of a no-fly zone on Libyan military aviation, and to establish safe areas in places exposed to shelling as a precautionary measure that allows the protection of the Libyan people and foreign nationals residing in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Taking note further of the Secretary-General’s call on 16 March 2011 for an immediate ceasefire,

“Recalling its decision to refer the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya since 15 February 2011 to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, and stressing that those responsible for or complicit in attacks targeting the civilian population, including aerial and naval attacks, must be held to account,

“Reiterating its concern at the plight of refugees and foreign workers forced to flee the violence in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, welcoming the response of neighbouring States, in particular Tunisia and Egypt, to address the needs of those refugees and foreign workers, and calling on the international community to support those efforts,

“Deploring the continuing use of mercenaries by the Libyan authorities,

“Considering that the establishment of a ban on all flights in the airspace of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya constitutes an important element for the protection of civilians as well as the safety of the delivery of humanitarian assistance and a decisive step for the cessation of hostilities in Libya,

“Expressing concern also for the safety of foreign nationals and their rights in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Welcoming the appointment by the Secretary General of his Special Envoy to Libya, Mr. Abdul Ilah Mohamed Al-Khatib and supporting his efforts to find a sustainable and peaceful solution to the crisis in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Reaffirming its strong commitment to the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and national unity of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

“Determining that the situation in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya continues to constitute a threat to international peace and security,

“Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

[MrCoffee]

6. You highlighted it yourself....a threat to international peace and security

The next phrase, "Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations" is invoked by the determination that the situation in Libya is a threat to international peace.

Right to protect has nothing at all to do with the legal basis for authorizing military action. The threat to international peace part does.

So what do you think? Was the situation in Libya a threat to international peace?

[whoneedstickets]

8. Yeah, presumably the leaders of the member of the UNSC see it...

..I guess if you don't they must be wrong. I'll try to arrest any I see. ok?

[MrCoffee]

11. Presumably they should be able to explain what they see

Shouldn't they?

Am I missing something in the language of 1973 that explains what threat to international peace and security they saw?

[whoneedstickets]

12. Well, if past experience matters there's good evidence that civil wars

are contagious, spill over into neighboring states, and produce humanitarian refugee crises that can destabilize the governments of host nations.

Would you have us wait until these things are manifest before acting?

[MrCoffee]

14. Is it then fair to say that you agree that the situation was a threat to international peace?

I'm simply asking.

[whoneedstickets]

18. My opinion is pretty irrelevant

The UNSC voted, these votes aren't slam dunk rubber stamps. Votes to use force in the UNSC seldom pass. Korea (when the soviets were absent and China was represented by the KMT not Mao) and Kuwait are the only previous times to my knowledge though the Bush admin says 1441's "grave consequences" clause amounted to a sanction of force against Iraq.

If the UNSC says so, that's good enough for me.

[whoneedstickets]

16. Look if you're opposed to this just say so...

..but stop playing at international lawyer trying to catch the UNSC in something illegal. We know that the Bush administration had no legal basis for Iraq but there have been no actions taken to bring ICC charges.

Who determines whether international peace and security are threatened? It would seem the only arbiter of that is the highest IGO that deals with security matters (the UN), and its most august sub-committee (the UNSC) taking its cue from the regional security organization (the Arab League) and with the blessing of the UN human rights committee and the GA.


You don't like it? write a letter.

[MrCoffee]

17. The UN Security Council determines whether international peace and security are threatened

However, I don't think they can just say, "Hey, look, that country there is threatening international peace and security" without some justification for the statement.

In the absence of such a justification, I think it's legitimate to question the legality of the UNSC's actions under the Charter that establishes and authorizes them.

[whoneedstickets]

19. Justify your opposition any way you want.

It is a legal act under international law. You plan to take the UNSC to court? They make the rules.

If you need to pretend this was somehow illegal to solve the cognitive dissonance issues you have with adherence to international law and your ideology, that's your business.

[tabatha]

2. r2p

http://www.responsibilitytoprotect.org/

[MrCoffee]

4. What does the UN Security Council have to do with that?

Where does this NGO coalition fit into Article VII use of force doctrine?

[tabatha]

7. Scroll to the bottom and click on United Nations.

Explore further on your own - I ain't gonna hold your hand.

[MrCoffee]

10. None of which explains anything about how this group is affiliated with the UNSC

It appears to be a collection of NGO's. What role do they play on the UN Security Council?

[David__77]

9. NGO/"civil society"/anti-sovereignty nonsense.

It will inevitably fail, as have all ideologies aimed at destroying nations and states.

[L. Coyote]

13. WTF, someone finally got around to reading the UN Charter??

I posted this one when the action started, and I noticed no one on the whole planet was even asking about what the UN can or cannot do, esp. not Mr. Obama. Nor was anyone asking HOW an action must be carried out if under auspices of a UN Resolution. A UN Resolution is not an excuse for a state or a group of states calling themselves bumfuck whatever to do however the bumfucks wish.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=700460&mesg_id=700671

===============
Word-for-word, that was a George W. Bush speech about Saddam, it seemed.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=690832&mesg_id=690832


CHAPTER VII: ACTION WITH RESPECT TO THREATS TO THE PEACE, BREACHES OF THE PEACE, AND ACTS OF AGGRESSION
Article 39

The Security Council shall determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 41 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security.
Article 40

In order to prevent an aggravation of the situation, the Security Council may, before making the recommendations or deciding upon the measures provided for in Article 39, call upon the parties concerned to comply with such provisional measures as it deems necessary or desirable. Such provisional measures shall be without prejudice to the rights, claims, or position of the parties concerned. The Security Council shall duly take account of failure to comply with such provisional measures.
Article 41

The Security Council may decide what measures not involving the use of armed force are to be employed to give effect to its decisions, and it may call upon the Members of the United Nations to apply such measures. These may include complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations.
Article 42

Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.
Article 43

1. All Members of the United Nations, in order to contribute to the maintenance of international peace and security, undertake to make available to the Security Council, on its call and in accordance with a special agreement or agreements, armed forces, assistance, and facilities, including rights of passage, necessary for the purpose of maintaining international peace and security.
2. Such agreement or agreements shall govern the numbers and types of forces, their degree of readiness and general location, and the nature of the facilities and assistance to be provided.
3. The agreement or agreements shall be negotiated as soon as possible on the initiative of the Security Council. They shall be concluded between the Security Council and Members or between the Security Council and groups of Members and shall be subject to ratification by the signatory states in accordance with their respective constitutional processes.

Article 44

When the Security Council has decided to use force it shall, before calling upon a Member not represented on it to provide armed forces in fulfilment of the obligations assumed under Article 43, invite that Member, if the Member so desires, to participate in the decisions of the Security Council concerning the employment of contingents of that Member's armed forces.
Article 45

In order to enable the United Nations to take urgent military measures, Members shall hold immediately available national air-force contingents for combined international enforcement action. The strength and degree of readiness of these contingents and plans for their combined action shall be determined within the limits laid down in the special agreement or agreements referred to in Article 43, by the Security Council with the assistance of the Military Staff Committee.
Article 46

Plans for the application of armed force shall be made by the Security Council with the assistance of the Military Staff Committee.
Article 47

1. There shall be established a Military Staff Committee to advise and assist the Security Council on all questions relating to the Security Council's military requirements for the maintenance of international peace and security, the employment and command of forces placed at its disposal, the regulation of armaments, and possible disarmament.
2. The Military Staff Committee shall consist of the Chiefs of Staff of the permanent members of the Security Council or their representatives. Any Member of the United Nations not permanently represented on the Committee shall be invited by the Committee to be associated with it when the efficient discharge of the Committee's responsibilities requires the participation of that Member in its work.
3. The Military Staff Committee shall be responsible under the Security Council for the strategic direction of any armed forces placed at the disposal of the Security Council. Questions relating to the command of such forces shall be worked out subsequently.
4. The Military Staff Committee, with the authorization of the Security Council and after consultation with appropriate regional agencies, may establish regional sub-committees.

Article 48

1. The action required to carry out the decisions of the Security Council for the maintenance of international peace and security shall be taken by all the Members of the United Nations or by some of them, as the Security Council may determine.
2. Such decisions shall be carried out by the Members of the United Nations directly and through their action in the appropriate international agencies of which they are members.

Article 49

The Members of the United Nations shall join in affording mutual assistance in carrying out the measures decided upon by the Security Council.
Article 50

If preventive or enforcement measures against any state are taken by the Security Council, any other state, whether a Member of the United Nations or not, which finds itself confronted with special economic problems arising from the carrying out of those measures shall have the right to consult the Security Council with regard to a solution of those problems.
Article 51

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.

[MrCoffee]

15. Sorry I missed your post

It's a valid and important question.

[Catherina]

20. A UN Resolution is not an excuse for a state or a group of states calling themselves ...

A UN Resolution is not an excuse for a state or a group of states calling themselves bumfuck whatever to do however the bumfucks wish.

Oh yes it is and all it ever was. Veto power to run roughshod over everyone else? WTF.


The mere existence of a Security Council tells you all you need to know about what the UN really is and who it serves.

"The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) is one of the principal organs of the United Nations and is charged with the maintenance of international peace and security"

The five veto-wielding permanent members countries, 4 of which rain the most death on innocent people and have the biggest war machines are "charged with the maintenance of international peace and security". :rofl: It's Animal Farm.

I wish I could rec your post too.