Florida student teachers have fallen for the "reformer" rhetoric about bad teachers on tenure..

[madfloridian]

This interview on Ch 10 Tampa really blew my mind. These three gals sound like they have fallen for the propaganda about experienced teachers. I do know if they are interns, the teachers sponsoring them have to be tenured....perhaps they need to think before they speak.

I wonder if it is the education department at USF which talks about getting rid of "bad teachers" on tenure...or if they got their words from the media.

Video at the link.

Student teachers speak out on SB 736 on teacher merit pay

According to the aspiring teachers, the Student Success and Teacher Quality Act as it's called is not all bad. They like knowing they'll have an opportunity to earn more money.

"I like the merit pay, the fact we can get paid based on our performance," says Lindsay.

"That part doesn't scare me, because I know I'm going to do my job and do it to the best of my ability," adds Ashlee.

Right on, Ashlee. You can just bet you will be rewarded just fine if you do a good job. :sarcasm:

The words "bad teachers" turned me off to them.

"I like getting rid of bad teachers, teachers protected by the unions because we can't fire them. That's crap. If they're not doing the job, they don't get paid. It's that simple," says Lindsay.

"I have seen teachers don't teach, because they have tenure. They sit in the classroom, read the newspaper give worksheets," explains Megan.

Right, Megan. "Bad teachers just sit around and read the newspaper and give worksheets." Right.

And you 3 girls can just dream on with your magnificent dreams of a system that will be fair to you as your certificate is renewed each year.

Right.

[FiveGoodMen]

1. “A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes”

Mark Twain

[madfloridian]

18. So true.

And we see it happen over and over.

[Courtesy Flush]

2. But they're being paid according to their STUDENTS' performance, not their own.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be based on standardized test scores? 60 minutes just ran a piece about a school that paid teachers $120k to start, and only accepted the very best, and no tenure. Test scores did not rise for their students.

Not sure what conclusions to take from that, but no matter how hard you work, or how skilled you are, you won't make the grade if your kids don't.

[madfloridian]

3. Exactly.

:shrug:

They just sound so...full of it. I stopped having interns 10 years before I retired. Esp not ones from USF.

No, they will not be judged on how they do....just on how their kids do. Oh, a little of the evaluation is based on principal judgement, but think of the pressure on the principals to produce good test scores?

[Starry Messenger]

9. +

And test scores are generally higher in the more affluent areas. Teachers who work with at-risk kids in areas with a low-SES will probably never see a dime of "merit pay". It should be called "poverty fine".

[roguevalley]

13. these jackasses will learn the hardway. I truly hope they do so they

can appreciate what those of us who gave blood for protections went through. dumbasses. Yeah, let's make a hard job harder. Stupid.

[madfloridian]

14. The naive thinking that they will be treated fairly...

it's stunning. We paid large union dues, we took stands, in fact our area had a great local union. Those who didn't join reaped the benefits anyway, but now they have broken things so badly that unions can't do much.

[roguevalley]

25. I know. who will be there to defend them when they get into

trouble? No one. Serves them right, idiots.

[Riftaxe]

4. No Ashlee, bad teachers

just teach out of the back of the book with minimal knowledge in the subject, this is why decent school districts don't have phys-ed teachers giving instruction in biology or calculus classes even if they do have a M.Ed.

[xchrom]

5. Who hasn't fallen for the lie?

Look at 'strong' Obama supporters here.

[WinkyDink]

6. Call me. AshLEE, when you're 52. STHU until then. "I have seen teachers don't teach...."?? "Don't"?!

[Igel]

7. I've been a student teacher.

I've seen teachers that don't or can't teach. They may want to, but they don't know their subject matter well enough or they can't deal with the kids or the onslaught of paperwork and other requirements. It happens.

I've seen subs that won't or can't teach. That's a different matter.

But I've also seen a but of arrogant jackasses, fresh out of college or industry going for their certification that are so dead-set on the idea that they have seen the light, the Truth has been brought down from Mt. Sinai and they will perfect the world. Because they are the enlightened few, the Brights, the Good, the Best Trained.

Then they run into reality and their worldview doesn't so much crumble as "correct the world". Now, don't get me wrong, the system sucks. But the system isn't making the problem; it's warped and twisted around the problem to make sure that the problem's not blamed on the guilty.

Now, part of the "bad teachers" they see are perfectly adequate teachers but the info is filtered their the student teachers' hubris and arrogance. Part of it is a desire to get a job--and the more simply "adequate" teachers get fired, the greater the chances that the self-appointed Brights will land one of the spots and show the world what they've always known--their excellence, their glory, their sheer Brightness and superiority to all the schlock from the obsolescent baby boomers to the generation preceding them.

Eh.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. Why would a student teacher be qualified to judge teachers?

[CanSocDem]

23. In my experience....

...as a "student teacher", it was because my intellectual enthusiasm for teaching had yet to be stifled by the reality of actually doing it for a living.

When I told the principal, in my first week of interning, that I thought I wouldn't learn enough from my assigned supervising teacher, I thought he was going to have a heart attack. But I got what I wanted which was an active role in my education.


.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Intellectualism enthusiasm isn't what is needed to judge teachers

Every student teacher I have ever had was enthusiastic. Most were also intellectual. But that didn't mean they were qualified to judge me. And if they had tried, they would have been shown the door.

Here's what is not being said in this discussion - the selection of a cooperating teacher is a careful process by district administration as well as university personnel. No substandard teachers are allowed to mentor a student teacher. The cooperating teachers are always the best at their craft, in their subject and/or grade levels. So any student teacher who walks in expecting to see substandard teaching is going to be disappointed.

Cooperating teachers are also being asked to take on an extra amount of work and paper work, and not all have the time to do so. I have turned down more than one offer to take on a student teacher because I didn't feel I had the time to devote to the responsibility. Also, cooperating teachers used to be paid for having a student teacher. Those days are long gone. So yes, if a student teacher came into MY room with an attitude that I was "stifled" and he/she wouldn't be able to learn enough from me, I would invite him/her to find a new cooperating teacher.

[madfloridian]

33. If you had said that about me....I would have asked my principal to show you the door.

I kept my "intellectual enthusiasm" through all my years of teaching.

[Salviati]

8. Ask them again in two years, see what they say then.

See how many of them are still around after two years...

[YvonneCa]

10. They are being used. Just like my generation of teachers...

...was used. I never saw it at the time...too idealistic. 25 years later...things are pretty clear.

New teachers are indoctrinated on what ever the current 'thought' on education is...and they are held up as examples of what all teachers should be and do.

Then the paradigm shifts. The new teachers become the veterans...the experienced...the expensive employees.

Need more newbies...;) Sorry. Guess I'm a bit jaded. :)

[madfloridian]

27. Me, too.

Jaded, that is. I remember in college ed classes having to learn various schools of belief on learning and analyze them in class. Then later I realized those who were coming as interns only were capable of thinking in one straight line.

[immoderate]

11. I am fascinated by the "bad teachers who read the newspaper and give worksheets."

This kind of mythology lives with the "just go into the classroom and tell the children what to do" school of thought on education.

Teachers who don't teach, get chewed up and spit out by students; even the students who don't want to learn resent them.

Newspapers? If you have masterful control over the students, you might be able to do it. But it's a little crazy to not watch kids under your supervision. Maybe in an elementary setting, with students engaged in working on projects, a teacher could find time for his/her own thoughts...

Nah! What's more interesting? I'd be with my students.

--imm

[madfloridian]

12. You make some good points.

A teacher who is not in control will have a miserable time of it in a classroom. In all the years I taught I can only name 2, maybe 3 teachers who were really not good.

[MrSlayer]

15. "I have seen teachers don't teach............"

This imbecile is teaching? Sounds like she's setting up her own dismissal.

[madfloridian]

16. I was so not impressed with them.

I use to get such great interns, but through the years things changed. I called in the professor in charge of them...told her the one I had was not going to make a good teacher. I asked why they were making me the bad guy, why didn't they catch it. I never took anyone else after that.

[madfloridian]

17. Another comment from Ashlee that irritates me so much.

"Ashlee thinks the new merit pay system may encourage some tenured teachers strive to do better. Ashlee says, "As scary as the bill is, if it's going to make students learn more, achieve more that's what it's all about it's all about the students not about us."

Lordy I hate that term...it's all about the students. Just like for all these years teachers have not thought about students. I resent it.

I also resent that there are NO Democratic leaders calling these teabagging fools out on their vitriol toward teachers...oh, wait. I forgot. That's Arne who created the atmosphere. :shrug:

[ChoppinBroccoli]

19. Why Do People Fall For Buzzwords?

I've had this same conversation with more people than I care to count lately, because people are just so damn willing to swallow up buzzwords whole without even questioning what they mean.

To a person, everyone I've met who supports this crap makes the following statement: "Merit pay is a great thing! Everyone should be paid what they actually deserve!"

Yeah, sounds great, doesn't it? Until you start asking a couple of questions, that is. What does "merit pay" actually MEAN? Who decides what YOUR work is worth? What are the standards for deciding what YOU'RE worth? And what will you do if (when) you don't actually get what you deserve? Remember, there's no Union to fight for your rights anymore, so what is your recourse if you get screwed over?

What would "merit pay" look like for, say, a cop? Or a firefighter? Here's a question maybe YOU should have asked, AshLEE: how do I as a teacher get raises under a "merit pay" system? Say your first year of teaching, your students average a 75% on the test that determines how much pay you MERIT. How much BETTER does your next batch of students next year have to do in order for you to get a raise? And what if, despite YOUR best efforts, you've got a bunch of dummies who either aren't capable of doing well on a test or don't care enough to try? Under "merit pay," YOUR salary goes DOWN that year, AshLEE. How are you going to explain to your family that while the standard of living in your area has continued to steadily climb, YOUR pay is decreasing because your students proved that you weren't worth as much this year and not deserving of any kind of a raise?

But let's examine the other side of that coin, because clearly YOU'RE going to be an exceptional teacher, AshLEE, and you will see nothing but steadily improving test scores every year. So what if your students do well, and the following year, the test scores improve? Say next year, you improve the average to an 80%. You pick up your raise and all is well. Then the following year, it goes up again to 85%, and you get your raise. Then it goes up to 90, and then to 95, and then, in your sixth year of teaching, your students achieve a 100% passage rate. You're a phenomenal teacher, AshLEE!!! Too bad you'll never get another raise in your entire teaching career. Good luck surviving on what a sixth-year teacher makes 25 years from now. Oh, and don't think you'll be retired in 25 years. You won't be. The Union doesn't exist anymore, remember? You don't HAVE retirement. The retirement accounts were all raided in order to balance the budget. They were just a part of those evil Unions' "perks" that were bankrupting us. Remember that, AshLEE?

And what happens if your students improve, and then your school administrator tells you, "Sorry, AshLEE, but we live in a teabagger district where people don't want to pay any taxes and our school levies always get voted down, so we don't have enough money to give you the raise we promised you. And even worse than that, we can't even afford to keep you on at your current rate. Please enjoy these lovely parting gifts and the home version of our game, though." Who you gonna complain to, AshLEE? The Union isn't there to protect you anymore because a few people claimed they knew somebody who had a brother with a roommate who once heard about a teacher who read a newspaper during class. Sorry about your luck, AshLEE. Don't even bother filing for unemployment, because we did away with those dirty "entitlements" a long time ago. People were abusing THAT system too, pulling up to the unemployment office in Cadillacs and whatnot. Anyway, see ya later, AshLEE. Good luck finding a job as a 60-year-old with a 12-year-old's name. AshLEE.

It's nothing more than a scheme devised by the rich to make the working class work harder and harder for less money. It's a way of saying, "Hey, you did GREAT! Here's your raise that keeps you current with the rising standard of living. Now work even HARDER next year, and we'll keep you even again!!!" You're constantly struggling harder and harder just to maintain your head above the water line.

[madfloridian]

20. Great post. I agree. Buzzwords have taken over politics in both parties.

It's sad but true. And I kept hoping people would wake up in time and see what was happening. I fear that the harm has been done, though.

Most of the interns I had through the years were bright and capable of holding intelligent conversations. These girls were neither, seems to me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Damn it. Where'd I leave that newspaper? Where are those worksheets?

I'm getting a student teacher next week. Her first duty will be to fetch my paper and run those worksheets every day.

Thanks for the great idea, Mad!

And for our wingnut invaders --> :sarcasm:

[madfloridian]

24. lol love your post.

These girls sounded so know it all. All I can say is they are going to be teaching in Rick Scott's Florida....they will get off their high horses very quickly.

[SoCalDem]

26. Young workers always think they have all the answers, if ONLY the oldsters

ahead of them would get out of the way.. It's that way in EVERY work venue.. It's the age-old struggle between experience and newness..

[madfloridian]

28. But these youngsters are using "reformer" catchphrases.

So either USF is teaching them such things that reformers want....or they have fallen for the anti-teacher propaganda. My fear is that is being taught to them. They will be interning with tenured teachers.

[SoCalDem]

39. The younger ones "know" that the deals they will get are waaaaay less

so they feel no affinity with the tenured ones who will be training them. ..and they probably know that until the system "changes", they will also be first out in a budget crunch. It's to their advantage to see tenure end (even though they will have that same thing bite them on the ass some day)..

When they start out, all they are seeing is the opportunity to teach and to earn some money to pay off their loans.. They are not thinking about longterm benefits they will need..

[Viking12]

30. There will NEVER be merit pay available....

As a University professor we have a merit pay system in place. There has not been any money to give merit raises since 2005 yet we must go through the 'process' each year. The 'merit' committee has simply adopted a 'non-review' review approach. Everybody gets merit recognition on an equal basis no matter what they've done over the previous year.

[madfloridian]

31. That could well be the truth. There is no money for the merit pay anyway.

Naive little interns using reformer talk to diss the very teachers with whom they will be interning.

[madfloridian]

32. And they just keep on....FL house votes to restrict union activity.

http://www.tallahassee.com/article/20110326/CAPITOLNEWS/103260313/House-votes-to-restrict-union-activity

"The House voted 73-40 on Friday to pass a Republican proposal that clamps down on union political activity.

The bill by Rep. Chris Dorworth, R-Heathrow, would prohibit union dues from being deducted from the paychecks of government workers and requires unions to get permission from members before spending dues on political activities. A Senate companion bill by John Thrasher, a Republican from St. Augustine and the powerful Rules chairman, has cleared one committee and is on track for passage.

Doug Martin, a spokesman for the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, promised a legal challenge after the Senate signs off and, as expected, Gov. Rick Scott signs the legislation. Martin said the legislation would all but shut down the union. All of AFSCME's 19,000 members have their dues collected through payroll deduction, Martin said. For the most part, union dues do not go directly for political contributions, Martin said. But they do support worker rallies and other union functions that could fall under the bill's restriction on political activity, he said.

"It depends on how you define political activity," he said.

The legislation will not stand up in court, Martin predicted."

Read more: House votes to restrict union activity | tallahassee.com | Tallahassee Democrat http://www.tallahassee.com/article/20110326/CAPITOLNEWS/103260313/House-votes-to-restrict-union-activity#ixzz1HkiOZtT7

Unfortunately it just might stand up in FL courts.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. They passed that same bill in Kansas

It's infringement on free speech, IMO.

It's also nothing but mean. What if we decided no more United Way payroll deductions? The outcry would be deafening. But it's okay to attack unions.

Just disgusting.

[madfloridian]

35. We were practically threatened with dire things if we did not have United Way deducted.

They were really serious about it. They would call a meeting and give us lectures and in effect leave no choice.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. I give a dollar. In cash.

That way my school can be recognized for so many percent participation. But I've never filled out that payroll card.

I have a good friend whose son worked for United Way fresh out of college. He had a beautiful brand new company car, an expense account, and made more money than any teacher I knew. United Way had something close to 90% administrative costs when this young man worked for them. I haven't given more than a dollar since.

[Teaser]

37. "Bad teachers just sit around and read the newspaper and give worksheets."

My wife works with one guy who does exactly this. I'm sure he's an aberration, but it can happen.

[lib2DaBone]

38. Good.. if they believe.. let them go teach in the inner city....

Let them go teach in broken down buildings where the water leaks. Let them teach where kids routinely bring guns and knives to school.

And when they get stabbed in he classroom... be advised.. that Workman's Comp will not cover your injuries and Medical Bills and that you are ON YOUR OWN!

Teachers are now 3rd class citizens according to Rick Scott and the Republican Party.