This is not going to go over well here but.....

[IScreamSundays]

There needs to be a discussion about the left-right paradigm. Trust and believe I love to hate our right leaning foes as much as any of you. BUT... We need to step back for a sec and take a look at how we are manipulated by the PTB. You see, they don't give a crap about any of the things that we get so emotionally involved with. Their only wish is to keep us fighting amongst ourselves so that we don't notice that they are stealing everything that isn't tied down. And the stuff that isn't tied down they get congress to untether. So if there is any hope for this country it will come by the PEOPLE and that means ALL OF US, against them. We need our enemies. We MUST find a way to reconcile, or at least put some of our issues aside for a minute so that we can collectively fight for the survival of this country...If it is not already too late.

[MineralMan]

1. The right represents completely opposite positions from the left.

There's no cooperation, because the goals are not the same. It's impossible.

[Initech]

57. And not only that, they love it too.

[Kolesar]

2. I have regular correspondence with my state representative

And a handwritten answer from my congressman (now a senator). So who are these "powers that be"?

[Angry Dragon]

6. Then you are one of the lucky ones

Most congress people will not talk on the phone or they mail nice form letters that do not address concerns.

[NightWatcher]

3. you're right. that's why our real masters continue to use wedge issues

our real masters are not repukes or dems, but the dollars that own them both.

We are in the arena, some of us rooting for the Globetrotters, others for the Generals, all the while our cars are getting broken into by the organizers as planned

[Hatchling]

56. What is a wedge issue to you

is life or death for me.

[dkofos]

4. Wisconsin was an eye opener for a lot of people.

With any luck they will remember the next time they vote.

[elocs]

19. "The next time they vote"? The trouble here in WI is that too many didn't vote last November.

Walker got 90% of the number of votes that went to McCain in 2008 so the Republicans clearly voted. I hope Democrats have learned the lesson from this and at least on a state and local level not blame our Democratic candidates because they are angry, disappointed, or disenchanted with Obama and national Democrats.

[bluestate10]

25. The "There is no difference" mantra that people like Nader is pushing

led to Scott Walker in Wisconsin. Progressives love to blame the Kochs, but the Kochs can not buy the vote of people that have true dedication to a just society. More damage is done by people like Ralph Nader, who claim to share progressive values, but spend their waking hours attacking democratic politicians, who at least are incrementally moving toward progressive societal values.

[elocs]

32. No matter how people try to spin it, the Nader lie has cost this country,

in 2000 and still yet today. There is a difference although it might not be as great as many like, but there is a difference.

[HopeHoops]

5. Oh YEAH! Well FUCK YOU!

Well SOMEBODY had to post something confrontational like that.

:hi: :grouphug:

You do have a good point - there is a lot of fighting over really petty shit when the real issue is the survival of our country.

[snappyturtle]

7. K&R I agree. We have to pick our battles carefully and get to the root

of the problem.....not each other.

[bobbolink]

59. Totally agree, and that's why I'm a "radical". From the word "radix" which means ROOT.

The true meaning of the word, which I am not willing to cede, is getting to the root of the issue.

Its not always easy to discern, but that is part of the struggle.

[tavalon]

8. I completely agree

It's time we united against the oligarchs, all of us, tea,coffee or latte.

[Ian David]

9. Bipartisanship with Republicans is date-rape. n/t

[bobbolink]

60. The OP is not talking about bipartisanship.

[The Doctor.]

10. Unfortunately most of us see that. More unfortunately;

The problem isn't that we have 'different views' from the wingnuts, it's that the wingnuts have been programmed not to listen to the 'other side'.

No matter how much we warn them, no matter how much proof we have, they will remain steadfastly ignorant.

[bluestate10]

30. A more dangerous element is the "There is no difference" extreme Left.

That element of voters has done more damage to the country than teabaggers or the rightwing. I always think that I will side with a practical centrist over ten extreme Left voters any day. Because when push come to shove, I can count on the centrist to act rationally. The extreme Left is full of contradictions. They don't want dictators, but they don't want war to remove brutal, recalcitrant dictators. The extreme Left want their view of social change implemented, but fail to see that can't be done in one brush stroke. The extreme Left hates capitalism, but fail to acknowledge that good capitalism exists and needs support. The extreme Left complain about off-shoring of jobs, but pay little to no attention to the source of their clothing, shoes, home appliances, children toys and automobiles.

[SDuderstadt]

41. Very well said...

I could not agree more.

[LeftishBrit]

42. While I agree on the point that 'there is no difference' leftists can enable the Right...

so can 'practical centrists' - and because there are more of them, they do so more often in practice. Centrists don't always act rationally either, at least from the point of view of anything other than temporary power for themselves. Two words: Tony Blair. Two more words: Nick Clegg.

ETA: there are also many leftists *and* centrists who have acted rationally to bring progress; but I would disagree that centrists do so consistently more than leftists.

[Ship of Fools]

52. Thank you!

[mopinko]

11. just remember when you see a wedge, ask yourself

who is hammering this wedge? answer- not your friend.

[cali]

12. yeah, this is original. I don't know why you think that this wouldn't go over

well here. It gets posted frequently and it usually goes down just fine.

[IScreamSundays]

18. so sorry cali

thanks for the drive by

[cali]

22. no need to thank me, and it's not a drive by. I think your post is vague

and less than perspicacious. and simplistic.

[IScreamSundays]

26. Oh for fuck Cali...

perspicacious???? Really. Let us all bow to your superior intellect.

[cali]

35. huh? I never said my intellect is superior to anyone else's

I like words. It's that simple. I like using the right word for whatever I'm trying to express. That doesn't mean I think I'm intellectually superior. Sorry, I just don't think much of your OP.

[SidDithers]

39. FWIW, I like that you used "perspicacious"...

use the word that fits. :thumbsup:

Sid

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nevergiveup]

13. Good Post!

I understand the day to day battles here but I also understand how we better damn well unite in 2012.

[KurtNYC]

14. PTB divide us with social issues so they can move their financial agenda

as you have detailed. And if that is not enough division they can throw in race, gender and perceived class.

[Warren DeMontague]

68. So, let's be clear: we're not supposed to give a shit about "social issues"?

Sorry, they made just be a sideshow to you, they aren't to lots of us.

[pampango]

15. If you consider the "populist" right's positions against immigration, trade deals and bailouts,

there may be some room for "bipartisanship" with some on the left. One problem is that so much of the rest of their agenda is so horrid that it's hard to consider cooperating with the right on anything. (I suppose they feel the same way about finding any common ground with anyone of the left which they despise. ;) )

[IScreamSundays]

17. that hatred has been drilled into them by the propaganda

that is so pervasive in that set. They need re-programming, I agree. But if anyone is gonna start it will have to be the left

[RandomKoolzip]

16. Tell it to the right, then.

They want to see us dead. If anyone's mind is closed to cooperation, it's them, not us.

[bluestate10]

37. You gave an easy reply. And one that is dead wrong.

Your actions matter more than a rightwinger's actions. When you cause no value added chafe to people that are even marginally on your side, you assist the right monumentally. But you don't see that, it is easier to blame the right that to take a clear, critical look at your own actions and their consequences to preventing a move to a more just society.

[EstimatedProphet]

48. Tell that to Gabrielle Giffords

And to Dr. Tiller, and to Greg McKendry, and Linda Kraeger. That's just the tip of the iceberg, and there will be many, many more.

Our side doesn't like the rightwing's policies. Their side masturbates to dreams of putting us in ovens.

[old mark]

20. K&R- Lately, I believe the right does not care at all about the survival of this country...

they want to destroy it in its present form and replace it with some sort of dictatorship of the rich...they want to see everything collapse so they can take it all over.
There is no compromise with them-they are our enemies.

mark

[IScreamSundays]

24. I am just thinking that we need to separate the people that are in power

from the people that are not. I agree that the legislators, like those in Wisconsin, are our enemies but I just think we need to find a way to come together with the victims of all of the propaganda. This conditioning has been going on for years, while the left was asleep the PTB were creating monsters. God, even my own sister is hypnotized, only because she is far away in another state and a FOX news, and AM radio watcher and listener. And for reals, this is a liberal woman but she doesn't know it and it is too hard to help her because she is so far away. She needs a reconditioning camp as do all of them.

[old mark]

54. Yes. A lot of hate is by the very people who are being victimized by the right

and don't understand that...The GOP's biggest problem is that it has always been its own worst enemy when it is in power. They are so sick viscious and evil, they attack even their own supporters, especially those who are not rich enough to pay them...

mark

[Saturday]

21. It's hard to dance when your partner refuses to dance. nt

[bluestate10]

23. The problem that I have with progressives.

I don't give a shit about the right, I will fight them instinctively to my last breath. My issue is with progressives, largely because I value most of the issues that they value, even as I have a different view on how to accomplish them, and to what extent they can be accomplished in one single effort. What I see from DU progressive are people that complain, but offer no rational alternatives that are achievable. Progressives worship blue sky politicians and causes, without concern that the politicians and most importantly, the policies that they propose have no chance of becoming ingrained into the fabric of america. Progressives waste their votes, without thought about the consequences, then they deny that their vote mattered and argue that weak messaging by electable politicians that largely share progressive's goals caused those politician's defeat. Progressives love street protests and getting arrested in that effort, without concern that their "action" results in nothing more than wasted money on fines and lawyers.

Change does not start with politicians like President Obama or even US Congressional members. Change starts locally, setting up farmer's markets to offer toxin free vegetables and fruit and figuring out how to grow that produce inexpensively enough to allow cash strapped citizens to enjoy it along with more financially advantaged citizens. Change starts with helping to start companies that reflect progressive values on the environment, product quality and worker's rights, or if companies can't be started, supporting existing companies that share those values while nudging those companies farther toward a progressive path. Change starts with taking control of school boards and local politics so that there is no need to complain about rightwing drift by those entities. Change starts with each progressive, something few progressives appear to have a clue about.

[BeFree]

27. heh

So.... you have a problem with people who are willing to be arrested for standing up for their beliefs?
You mean those few brave individuals who lead the way for change?

Sorry to see such anti-progressive dogma spewed on DU.

Before you get your panties in a twist consider that I may be someone who has protested, represented many others in successful political matters, just barely escaped from being arrested by the 'man' and lives a life of change.

I find your anti-progressive rantings to be disgusting.

[SidDithers]

31. +1...nt

Sid

[stillwaiting]

28. I agree with you 100%.

This two party train-wreck in which such obvious social manipulation occurs which allows TPTB to continue to consolidate more of the wealth and income must stop. The only way for this to stop is to change our system of government.

Let's forget about ALL of the issues for the short term and unite with the right wing to reform the system. They have many of the same gripes we do about being sold out. If we could unite as Americans to "take our country back" from the elite we have a shot.

Including:
1. NO lobbying (outlaw legalized bribery)
2. Paper ballots
3. Term limits
4. Recall potential for EVERY elected official (excepting the President)
5. Outlaw elected officials from serving as lobbyists (with potential restrictions against "working" for Wall Street and the multinationals for a period of time) after serving as public officials
6. NO lifetime health insurance/benefits; We don't get them so neither do they.


I'm sure there are even more things we could agree on with the right wing (INCLUDING the tea party members). Not sure they'd ever go for public financing of elections, but it's possible if we can RIGHTLY convince them we the people can NOT compete with corporate dollars. Ever.

It's the ONLY way we're going to change direction in this country. The only way.

Us against them. If we ever do get representatives truly responsive to the people's wishes and desires we'll get our wants and desires reflected in actual legislation MUCH more.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeFree]

43. wrong

Immediately you take it as using bats. That's f'n dumb.

They need to be verbally beaten down in the council chambers, on the street corners, in the news.
Much like we do here on DU.

All speech should be open and free.
That way the idiots expose themselves, leaving openings in which we plant in their heads and those of the public that these insane individuals need to shunned and disregarded.

[EstimatedProphet]

51. And ridicule

We need to face it, by not showing their side as being ridiculous we are doing them a favor. It has a legitimizing effect. We should be making them out to be laughingstocks at every chance.

[BeFree]

53. Exactly

It isn't hard to do. But the media won't do it.

An example is Palin. Her selection was best for us, as it was soon seen how ridiculous her being chosen was.

Take their present course. They claim that investing in America is a bad business decision.
Well, that is an anti-American position. America has thrived by taking out loans. Loans on houses cars, and even building our roads. Now they think what got us here is all wrong? Ridiculous.

[DLnyc]

34. Two good points

1) A very common tactic for narrow interest groups that want to force an unpopular (and anti-popular) agenda through is to get people fighting with each other. For instance, I don't think Karl Rove gives a crap about gay marriage, but he sure did find it convenient to have people screaming at each other about the issue while he was busy foisting the boy-king on the world.

2) Some people here have trouble distinguishing between fighting the narrow interests that promote these fights, and the people duped into joining those fights. Karl Rove is a very dangerous creature. But not every smalltown American who is afraid of gay rights (for example) is necessarily a complete lost cause -- if the volume of rhetoric can be lowered it is often possible to find some reason and compassion hiding behind the fear and hostility they have been taught by constant propaganda. I know this because I have once or twice been able to lead some ditto-head out of their confused world after months of hard work.

If someone here can figure out how to fight the Roves, the corporate criminals, the Kochs without getting sucked into fighting those whose interests are really the same as ours, those who just got sucked into the fight on the other side, . . . that person certainly merits a Nobel Peace Prize, not to mention the thanks of the entire planet.

I'm not holding by breath for that to happen, though. Human nature makes it hard not to get sucked into the fight. In addition, there is always the occasional shill in there to stir up anger and hatred in case the level isn't high enough already.

[Shagbark Hickory]

36. So what do you propose? Aside from just having a discussion of course.

[bluestate10]

40. Get with people that share your view and organize on the local level.

Take back school boards, council offices, Mayor's offices. Take back local boards that decide how your tax money is spent. Start or support local businesses whose worker policies, environmental policies and product quality are on the ethical side of the equation. Or, you can continue to look to Washington and complain like too many do here on DU.

[Shagbark Hickory]

44. Ok how about an idea for something that hasn't been proven totally ineffective?

[LeftishBrit]

38. There is no reconciling with true right-wingers

There may be cases where people of all types of viewpoint can join on a specific issue; but there is NO room for acceptance of and compromise with right-wing views, even from those who share some of the same enemies.

There is no political reconciling with those - whether rich (the elitist right) or middle class (the populist right) - who hate poor people and consider those who need financial assistance as scroungers.

There is no political reconciling with those who consider that publicly provided healthcare is an evil, and more generally that all government provision of public services is at best wasteful and at worst a form of tyranny.

There is no political reconciling with those who support the crushing of trade unions, and consider that job insecurity and fear of poverty are necessary for 'productiveness'.

There is no political reconciling with those who support racism and the scapegoating of minority groups.

There is no political reconciling with those who consider that women should be barefoot, pregnant and confined to the kitchen.

There is no political reconciling with those who want to force all people to conform to the rules of a particular religion.

If some people with these views agree with us on a specific issue (e.g. ending the wars), then by all means let us welcome their presence at the march or signatures on the petition; but let us NEVER join in developing a hybrid movement based solely on rebelling against particular enemies, and which is prepared to endorse right-wing policies. At the risk of 'Godwinizing', that is the way in which fascist and neo-fascist movements and parties have often been created in the past and to this day.

[bluestate10]

46. True. That is why what people that are not rightwingers do matters.

Wasted votes, bashing politicians that are marginally on our side emboldens and empowers the Right. When dealing with a rightwinger, a moderate or progressive can't pick what they like out of an infested swamp and not damage important societal institutions. That last statement best buttress why I view politicians like Dennis Kucinich and Ralph Nader as toxic to the modern cause of progressivism, even as one time in the past their actions supported that cause. No one that entertains setting of cooperation with Ron Paul is a trustworthy progressive, IMO. One need to look at the whole Ron Paul, that look reveals a toxic swamp and a politician that votes lockstep with the most regressive republican legislation proposals imaginable.

[EstimatedProphet]

45. Absolutely. Here's the problem:

Their side has a massive brainwashing machine in the name of Fox News, which has actually been able to convince many of them that the super-wealthy have a right to do whatever they are told, and that what they are doing has no impact on things whatsoever. This means that our enemies WANT to be our enemies. They literally don't care at this point whether they are being used by corporations - they are happy to be used by corporations if it means that they can get some licks in against us.

[bluestate10]

47. Focus on making the foundation for your causes stronger and more rational.

Fox News can't convert the disciplined. Nor can they convert the average person that see that rational, disciplined moderate or progressive policies are best for them and their loved ones. It is when progressives and moderates become undisciplined that the right and Fox News make inroads. Expect politicians that share our views to examine where every dime of tax money is spend and whether those expenditures are meeting their objective, to demand that politicians that share our views NOT exercise that responsibility makes the arguments of waste by the right stronger.

[EstimatedProphet]

49. And unfortunately, there's a lot of their side that wants to be lied to

So when Fox News makes up ridiculous crap about how teachers have decimated the country, they fall right in line, even though it is ridiculous on it's face. You cannot convert people who want to believe lies. Now, granted we can make a lot of inroads with the reasonable on the right. But what do we do with the crazystupids? We've never figured that out, and listening to them as if they had a legitimate viewpoint only validates the craziness. That's the mistake we've been making all along. And the more they are ignored, the more likely they will turn to violence. So we can pretend their worldview deserves to be listened to and let things get even worse, or we can ignore them and let them get violent.

[BeFree]

50. Causes?

Ok, lets hear your sound advice, oh wise one. Here's a short list of our needs:

feed the poor

stop climate change

end waste on wars

give equal rights to all people

-----------------

Tell us how we manage to make our opponents on these matters see the wisdom of making all this happen. This should be good.

[Arugula Latte]

55. Not just Fox ... a good percentage of radio stations in this country, too.

Oh, and the massive amounts of religious insanity that hold that rational thought is evil and that having "faith" in nonsensical myths is good is hard to overcome, too.

[BOG PERSON]

61. what if there are no sides, man

like, what if we're all just one consciousness, man, that's all like fractured into billions of little pieces

[slay]

62. I think this thread has gone over quite a bit better than you expected

and rightfully so! i see the left/right paradigm - how the rich and powerful use divide and conquer strategies to keep us fighting amongst ourselves while they take ALL the power and money. it's sickening.

i think the best chance may be to unite the Dennis Kucinich liberals and the Ron Paul conservatives to work together. those two seem to be the groups that "get it" the most and are the most open-minded in general.

i am so tired i wish i could add more to this thread but the least I can do is a K&R for a topic that does indeed need to be discussed. :kick:

[LeftishBrit]

74. While I do think that powerful people divide and conquer others...

I don't think that they do so by creating divisions between left and right. Quite the contrary. They would like nothing better than to neutralize even the moderate left through compromise with the right. The right wing media, especially in America from what I gather, like to portray the 'left' as divisive; as refusing to 'come together' with the right; as placing ideology above country. And they also of course tend to portray the Democrats as more left than by international standards they are. (I have come across people proposing a 'Moderate Party' between the extremes of left and right - hello, the Democrats *are* the Moderate Party!)

Powerful people do like to exploit divisions between white and black, men and women, Jews and Muslims, working class people in jobs and the unemployed, etc. I often say that people in different minority and disadvantaged groups must, in the words of Benjamin Franklin in a somewhat different context, 'all hang together or assuredly we will all hang separately.' But joining 'populist' movements that include the right will only encourage and exaggerate these divisions, as one of the main points of right-wing ideology is the creation of scapegoats.

It is a common myth in this context that left and right, at least among those who are not rich, are divided solely by 'social wedge issues'. Even here, if 'social issues' involves racism and the scapegoating of social minorities, there is no room for compromise. But in any case, the biggest differences between left and right are on *economic* issues. Two of the most key issues of most 'populist' right-wing movements are:

(1) Government is tyranny, or likely to become so; or at the very best is inefficient, wasteful and probably fraudulent. Therefore public services are a bad thing. At the extreme: If you allow, for example, public health care, the next thing that will happen is that the government will declare martial law and herd you all into death camps!

(2) The ordinary hard-working taxpayer is being exploited and defrauded by benefit claimants and the unemployed 'workshy'. The 'bloated welfare state' pampers such people, and is responsible for our economic problems!

(1) seems commonest in America; (2) is common everywhere.

And there is no common ground between left and right on such views.

'Powerful people' are themselves divided and not a monolith, and tend to battle with each other for power, causing the less powerful to end up as literal or metaphorical collateral damage. But one thing that generally does unite them is an opposition to a more egalitarian society where they might have to give up some of their own power in favour of poorer people and minority groups. As such, they would like the left to compromise with the right, whether within the establishment (Blair-Bush; Clegg-Cameron); or outside it (anti-establishment leftists collaborating with teabaggers or the equivalents in other countries).

To clarify: Not all people who vote for right wing parties are truly right wing in their basic attitudes. Many do so just out of family tradition; some do so because economic desperation leads them to vote for *any* party other than whoever are the current incumbents. There is certainly plenty of room for trying to win over people who currently vote for right wing parties. But there is no room for considering any compromise with right-wing ideas and viewpoints.

[aikoaiko]

64. What is PTB?

:shrug:

[slay]

65. "Powers That Be"

that's what it stands for. :hi:

[BeHereNow]

66. "PTB" / "Powers that be"

The invisible men and women that select our puppet politicians
and control just about every thing on the planet, except your dog.
I'm sure if they can figure out a way to extract profits from your dog,
they will.
Beware.
BHN

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Who are the powers that be? Who is "the right"? Who is "the left"?

What specific issues are you talking about 'reconciling', and with whom?

You haven't defined your terms, and you've posted a mishmash of gobbledygook that assumes, for starts, that "we" (whoever that is) haven't already attempted 'reconciliation' with "them" (whoever that is) on "those issues" (whatever they are) so we can all fight the "real enemy" (whoever that is).... etc.

[bvar22]

69. When...

When The Working Class & The Poor realize we have more in common with each other
than we have in common with the Ownership Class Leadership of BOTH Political Parties,
we can DEMAND "Change".
WE outnumber THEM,
and WE can make our government WORK for US.

As long as "they" can keep us divided with social wedge issues,
or keep the national dialog inside the very narrow false frame of a contest between two opposing political parties,
then our choices will be limited.

I'm finding Common Ground with The Majority!



Who will STAND UP and represent THIS American Majority?
Rhetoric, Empty Promises, and Excuses are meaningless now.

"By their WORKS you will know them,"
And by their WORKS they will be held accountable.

[BeHereNow]

71. I wish I could share your hope bvar22...

Even with extremely harsh conditions falling on the average citizen,
most are still tuned in to Fux News, hanging on the words of the
hate talk hosts as if Jesus himself were broadcasting the solutions to
their miserable lots.

As long as the majority of our population remains ignorant as to
WHO is causing their misfortune, I do not see any solidarity possible.

Try telling your average ass hole on the street what is really going on
and watch their eyes glaze over as they contemplate that YOU are indeed the enemy
Beck and his ilk have been warning them about.

BHN

[bvar22]

73. Optomistic?...Me?

We moved to The Woods and started growing our own food in 2006.
That was not a move made from optimism.

Things will get worse (a lot) before they can get better.
I don't believe I will live to see it.

We are entering a new era of Feudalism.
98% will be reduced to Peasants while the RICH live like Lords,
and they are pulling up the ladder.

[handmade34]

70. rec

no hyperbole, deal in facts, remember we are all in this together... no easy task

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. Agree. Every time someone posts surprise that a conservative *actually* donated to charity ...

...I'm reminded of this.

They're wrong and for the most part stupid, but they're in the same boat we are.