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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 03:04 AM
Original message
Quantitative Easing, The Ben Bernanke, The Goldman Sachs
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 03:06 AM by HCE SuiGeneris
A quick trip down the rabbit hole. Quantitative easing, and the brilliant economists, are the subject matter for these 2 care bears...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k

Thanks to a fellow DUer (jotsy) for the link.

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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Pseudo economics that only the ignorant embrace
Everyone who understand QE knows that this is bullshit that only the economic ignorant embrace.

Why doesn't the video explain what would have happened if we didn't do QE?
Deflation, dramatically higher unemployment, dramatically higher interest rates, and dramatically higher costs for government lending.

Quantity theory of money predicts that absent QE there would be double digit deflation and double digit higher unemployment.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. "Quantity theory of money predicts that absent QE there would be double digit deflation and double..
"Quantity theory of money predicts that absent QE there would be double digit deflation and double digit higher unemployment."

Utter nonsense.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. If you have a problem with quantity theory why don't you become an economist
and publish some actual data that supports your assertions. Until then I'm going to believe the people who have done the work, published it, and made it available for people to read and critique. As opposed to uneducated internet know it alls with nothing supporting their opinions.
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jtuck004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Become an economist, you say? How about head of the Fed?
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 05:38 PM by jtuck004
And then of course you have your finger on the pulse of what is going on, and
when those silly people say there is a problem with housing he can tell
us it's just a local problem, that the odds are quite low that housing is
going to devalue, and that across industries such as automobile manufacturing
the fundamentals are quite strong.

A Unique Path To Hell...

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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. I've gotten an education from the best and the brightest economists in the world.
It's time for you to put away your worthless neo-classical textbooks and learn the economics of the real world.

Start with a pretty easy lesson on why the http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=12877">Quantity Theory of Money is completely bunk:

The Quantity Theory of Money which in symbols is MV = PQ but means that the money stock times the turnover per period (V) is equal to the price level (P) times real output (Q). The mainstream assume that V is fixed (despite empirically it moving all over the place) and Q is always at full employment as a result of market adjustments.

In applying this theory the mainstream deny the existence of unemployment. The more reasonable mainstream economists admit that short-run deviations in the predictions of the Quantity Theory of Money can occur but in the long-run all the frictions causing unemployment will disappear and the theory will apply.

In general, the Monetarists (the most recent group to revive the Quantity Theory of Money) claim that with V and Q fixed, then changes in M cause changes in P – which is the basic Monetarist claim that expanding the money supply is inflationary. They say that excess monetary growth creates a situation where too much money is chasing too few goods and the only adjustment that is possible is nominal (that is, inflation).

One of the contributions of Keynes was to show the Quantity Theory of Money could not be correct. He observed price level changes independent of monetary supply movements (and vice versa) which changed his own perception of the way the monetary system operated.

Further, with high rates of capacity and labour underutilisation at various times (including now) one can hardly seriously maintain the view that Q is fixed. There is always scope for real adjustments (that is, increasing output) to match nominal growth in aggregate demand. So if increased credit became available and borrowers used the deposits that were created by the loans to purchase goods and services, it is likely that firms with excess capacity will react to the increased nominal demand by increasing output.

The mainstream have related the current non-standard monetary policy efforts – the so-called quantitative easing – to the Quantity Theory of Money and predicted hyperinflation will arise.

So it is the modern belief in the Quantity Theory of Money is behind the hysteria about the level of bank reserves at present – it has to be inflationary they say because there is all this money lying around and it will flood the economy.

Textbook like that of Mankiw mislead their students into thinking that there is a direct relationship between the monetary base and the money supply. They claim that the central bank “controls the money supply by buying and selling government bonds in open-market operations” and that the private banks then create multiples of the base via credit-creation.

Students are familiar with the pages of textbook space wasted on explaining the erroneous concept of the money multiplier where a banks are alleged to “loan out some of its reserves and create money”. As I have indicated several times the depiction of the fractional reserve-money multiplier process in textbooks like Mankiw exemplifies the mainstream misunderstanding of banking operations. Please read my blog – http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=1623">Money multiplier and other myths – for more discussion on this point.

The idea that the monetary base (the sum of bank reserves and currency) leads to a change in the money supply via some multiple is not a valid representation of the way the monetary system operates even though it appears in all mainstream macroeconomics textbooks and is relentlessly rammed down the throats of unsuspecting economic students.

The money multiplier myth leads students to think that as the central bank can control the monetary base then it can control the money supply. Further, given that inflation is allegedly the result of the money supply growing too fast then the blame is sheeted home to the “government” (the central bank in this case).

The reality is that the central bank does not have the capacity to control the money supply. We have regularly traversed this point. In the world we live in, bank loans create deposits and are made without reference to the reserve positions of the banks. The bank then ensures its reserve positions are legally compliant as a separate process knowing that it can always get the reserves from the central bank.

(snip)

So when we talk about quantitative easing, we must first understand that it requires the short-term interest rate to be at zero or close to it. Otherwise, the central bank would not be able to maintain control of a positive interest rate target because the excess reserves would invoke a competitive process in the interbank market which would effectively drive the interest rate down.

Quantitative easing then involves the central bank buying assets from the private sector – government bonds and high quality corporate debt. So what the central bank is doing is swapping financial assets with the banks – they sell their financial assets and receive back in return extra reserves. So the central bank is buying one type of financial asset (private holdings of bonds, company paper) and exchanging it for another (reserve balances at the central bank). The net financial assets in the private sector are in fact unchanged although the portfolio composition of those assets is altered (maturity substitution) which changes yields and returns.

In terms of changing portfolio compositions, quantitative easing increases central bank demand for “long maturity” assets held in the private sector which reduces interest rates at the longer end of the yield curve. These are traditionally thought of as the investment rates. This might increase aggregate demand given the cost of investment funds is likely to drop. But on the other hand, the lower rates reduce the interest-income of savers who will reduce consumption (demand) accordingly.

How these opposing effects balance out is unclear but the evidence suggests there is not very much impact at all.

For the monetary aggregates (outside of base money) to increase, the banks would then have to increase their lending and create deposits. This is at the heart of the mainstream belief is that quantitative easing will stimulate the economy sufficiently to put a brake on the downward spiral of lost production and the increasing unemployment. The recent experience (and that of Japan in 2001) showed that quantitative easing does not succeed in doing this.

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=12877
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. You are wrong and you are characterizing what Mankiw says
Edited on Tue Dec-28-10 12:16 AM by Taitertots
Basicly what you are saying is a misinterpretation of Mankiw, monetarism, and the quantity theory. No one claims that Q and V are fixed, they are assumed constant in the short run. Everyone is aware that they fluctuate and those fluctuations are taken into consideration. No one, especially Mankiw claims that the Fed "Controls" the money supply, but it is one of several factors that effect the money supply. This whole article is nothing but an op-ed blog with no review, no support, and filled with erroneous claims.

Obviously you weren't educated by the brightest anything because you have no understanding of the theories you bemoan as wrong.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. The title of the previous post should say "Mischaracterizing" not "Characterizing"
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. You think you're smarter than Keynes?
Then you will have no trouble explaining the Monetarists complete failure in Japan. Quick, scour those textbooks and dust off another simplistic formula that has no relevance to the real world. Those who understand how money actually functions in the modern economy will just sit quietly in anticipation of whatever rot the great right-wing hack Mankiw can supply for you via overstuffed undergrad macro textbook.

Let me know when someone bothers to teach you whether or not economics is a hard science.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. We NEED deflation
it's absolutely necessary.

Why?

Because we are wage-locked right now - there is no way to get increased wages in the face of high unemployment and easy offshoring. So the ONLY way that a regular person is going to have improved standards of living under these conditions is for prices to come down.

We had massive inflation in housing from 2001-2008. That needs to come down to historical norms for housing to be affordable.

We have had massive inflation in health care costs for decades. This needs to come down to make accessible a basic standard of health care available to all. Subsidy programs and fascist insurance mandates simply feed the cost inflator without addressing the structural issues which cause the price inflation.

We have had massive inflation in education costs for decades. This needs to come down and the quality of education needs to go up. This is only going to be able to occur by ending the cycle of piling ever-increasing debt loads onto students and their families in return for less and less valuable degrees which represent less and less actual education. We turned a generation of students into debt zombies and surprise! Students overloaded with non-dischargable debt cannot buy more than necessary for subsistence, AND they are more expensive to hire because their income requirements are made all the greater by debt load.

We are currently experiencing strong inflation in commodities. So even those who out of prudence or necessity have scaled back their consumption are getting hit... and this is only projected to continue as speculative dollars originating from the Federal Reserve end up driving the cost of commodities (food and gas especially) through the roof.


Regular people can't take it anymore. There's no more blood in the stone. This economy is so overburdened with various economic rents that it is impossible to live without having the great majority of the people's economic surplus diverted to these various runaway-inflation sectors.

Who profits from this state of affairs? Only the very elite, the bankers and the moneymen. It's gone too far - way too far. And it is incumbent upon us to slam this ship of state into reverse and max out the engines until we reach the shores of sanity.

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Low wages pretty much depress demand anyway.
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 07:37 AM by mmonk
Since we are becoming a low wage country, there will remain deflationary pressure on consumer prices overall.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Your interpretation of the effects of deflation are inaccurate
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 08:41 AM by Taitertots
Do you think deflation isn't going to effect wages and/or unemployment?
How many more people are going to lose their houses when home prices are deflated, their wages are deflated, and their jobs disappear?


We need price stability and not crack pot schemes like deflation. It isn't going to do anything but screw regular people about as hard as they could be screwed.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. The Biggest Problem Caused By Deflation Is People Delay Purchases
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 08:53 AM by DemocratSinceBirth
Why should I buy a television tomorrow for four hundred dollars when I can buy the same television next month for three hundred dollars.

We already have enough problems without a race to the bottom...
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. The biggest problems are the effects on employment
Through the inverse relationship between inflation and unemployment.

Deferred consumption is a problem too.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Protecting bubble valuations is throwing good money after bad
Let's address your concerns:

- disappearing jobs? Hasn't that ship already sailed? This is a cause of deflation not a result of it.
- lower wages? same
- home prices deflating? This is not only a good thing it is a vital and necessary thing. People need roofs over their heads. High housing prices make it more difficult to survive. As far as people who bought houses they could not afford, well, they can mail back the keys and wash their hands of it. It is certainly not in the public interest to preserve private asset accumulation at the expense of the general public's interest in basic survival!


Price stability comes with equilibrium. Equilibrium requires a period of deflation to wash out all the malinvestment that occurs during inflationary/bubble periods. And we have just seen the popping of the biggest economic bubble the world has seen to date. "Crackpot schemes" are what drove valuations far above affordability levels in the first place. Eliminating crackpot schemes is the cure, and deflation is the inevitable consequence of popped bubbles.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. It doesn't require deflation to return to price stability
It requires disinflation. Which is something we can worry about after interest rate increases are not going to worsen an already bad situation.

"a period of deflation to wash out all the mal-investment that occurs during inflationary/bubble periods"
Deflation is going to add a whole new series of problems. "Washing out mal-investment" what do you think that means? High unemployment. Credit freeze. Even more job loses.

The "Crack pot schemes" that got us into the problem were Republican policies. Bubble popping is cutting off our nose to spite our face. We need price stability, progressive taxation, conditions for discount lending, and conditions to have excess reserves at the Fed. We also need to expand beneficial spending and stop wasting money on wars. We need more regulation of financial markets, to counter Republican regulation.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. In a deflationary cycle companies see profit margins squeezed.
That causes them to do three things:
a) cut employment
b) cut wages & benefits (not stagnant but 10%, 20%, 30% cuts)
c) demand more hours/productivity for the same amount of wages.

No recession ever (in this country or any country) has ended while in deflation.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. God I feel stupider.
That was like looking inside the mind of the love child between a freeper and 9/11 truther.

Rebuttal that is slightly less on smart-ass but more on facts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUxBDdjsCmk&NR=1
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
5. they say we have The Deflation.
i Love these guys -- they are so funny:spray:
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Dokkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
18. love the video
Kick the Ben Bernanke and I Recommend firing and replacing him with Peter Schiff
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