City agrees to lower test scores for police exam

[RZM]

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/city-agrees-to-lower-test-scores-for-police-exam-1103409.html

What does everybody think of this? I mention it because it's my hometown. Firefighters (the Ricci case) and police seem to be the battlegrounds for affirmative action these days. Is this right or is it wrong?

[Skip Intro]

1. It's wrong. nt

[msongs]

2. evidently race to to the top does not apply here lol nt

[Duckhunter935]

3. wrong

[Bluebear]

4. is what wrong, affirmative action?

[dems_rightnow]

5. Wrong

Why even have standards if they don't mean anything?

[dsc]

6. I don't have enough information to answer

what, if any, is the correlation between scoring the old passing score and being a good cop or firefighter. What, if any, is the correlation of the new score and being a good firefighter or cop? Without those answers, I can't address the question.

[Chemisse]

7. Instead of lowering test scores they should perhaps revisit the test itself, and

eliminate any cultural bias. Without knowing more details, my guess would be that that is the problem.

[bluestate10]

17. Agreed.

I am one that has the view that police and other city workers should only be selected from among people that live in the cities that they serve. There are exceptions, but I find it doubtful that a cop or firefighter that drives into a city to work from the suburbs really gives a shit about more than rank and pay. When a cop or firefighter has to go home and live among the served, the dynamics of that person's behavior changes.

[Hutzpa]

8. And what happens when the guns goes off because of cowardice

would they look back at the low test scores or blame the individual police officer.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Same thing is happening because of NCLB

Kids are failing the tests so they are changing the criteria.

[RZM]

10. My opinion is this

When it comes to public service, you have to have objective tests, with the best rising to the top. If a certain group is disproportionately affected, well tough shit, life ain't fair. While I believe in affirmative action in certain circumstances, when it comes to public service like this, I say let the best man or woman come out on top, regardless of their race or background.

[Biker13]

11. +1

This is the perfect example of PC getting out of hand. It undermines the whole concept.

Biker's Old Lady

[bluestate10]

18. Instead of affirmative action, I favor strict enforcement of non-discrimination policies.

If a person is found to have conclusively discriminated either in a private or public job, that person should be fired. A person that has a pattern that looks like they may be discriminating, but discrimination can't be proven beyond a doubt should be watched closely and if found to be discriminating beyond a doubt, fired. Affirmative Action policies put a band-aide on a productivity sapping ill that is better handled directly and forcefully. When job discrimination is wiped out via aggressive, ethical action, there will be no need for Affirmative Action policies.

[tularetom]

12. Affirmative action is appropriate for trainee or entry level positions

Promotions beyond that point should be based on performance on the job, nothing else.

[Travis_0004]

13. I disagree

There should be a test, and you should hire the best candidates. We need to make sure that the test is fair, and not biased so one race finishes better, but I think the best person should get the job.

[tularetom]

14. If you're filling one position, that's the case

But when you're hiring 39 junior clerks, it really makes very little difference. Half of them will either quit or fail to survive their probationary period.

I was a junior middle manager for a public agency back in the 70's when Federal Revenue Sharing was implemented and the powers that be in our department decided to spend all the money on staffing up. I was put in charge of hiring these new workers or anyway I thought I was in charge. The HR people informed me that I would hire according to strict ethnic and gender guidelines. Since I really had no choice I proceeded according to their instructions. We added something like 25 new staff people in various gofer jobs all neatly sorted as to their race, ethnicity and gender. And sure enough, after one year, the cream had risen to the top and we had replaced about 80% of them. And when we replaced them we filled one position at a time and we filled them with the best available candidate. And nobody bitched.

After that I never had anybody ever tell me I couldn't hire whoever I wanted. And I continued to work in the same field until I retired in 2000. I'm sure I hired hundreds of people.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. I am surprised you did not get flagged for not maintianing the carefully crafted numbers

[tularetom]

24. That's when I discovered that the people charged with keeping track of such things

Had reeeeeally short attention spans.

If they didn't have to file a report with some agency they didn't follow up on anything.

And you could pretty much hire whoever you wanted.

[bluestate10]

19. I agree. But the performance ladder must be kept fair.

People that actively discriminate use all types of tricks to move a favored people ahead of ones that they discriminate against. Private companies and public entities don't have the will and in many cases, the sophistication, to detect and end the behavior by firing the discriminator. Workplace discrimination is a tough kernel that often turns on whether a person in power takes ethical action or turns a blind eye to signs that discrimination is going on.

[bluestate10]

20. Agreed, but the performance ladder must be made fair.

People that discriminate are immoral and use all types of tricks to move favored people ahead of ones being discriminated against. Higher ups often lack moral clarity and/or the sophistication to isolate and fire discriminators, and most importantly,correct the wrongs caused by their actions.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. There are companies that exclusively build bias free tests

And their work has held up to close scrutiny. However there are those who continue to places social issues above merit. As a geek that seriously bothers me, as an activist I have some empathy.

[tinkerbell41]

21. I have something to add:

I am considered a minority in my field, I have heard over and over again that "They should only hire people based on test scores" Shouldn't be forced to take minorities, only the best then it will all be fair.

Yeah right. The contractors want their nephew? Here is a test copy, a shop superintendent wants their son? Copy of the test. You cannot tell me it doesn't happen, I lived it. I happen to make friends with people who had access to extra information, unknowingly to me. And the more I hung out with them the more I realized out of 120 people there were maybe 9 who didn't have the tests.
They are gone now, didn't make it. But my trade only has the best and brightest!!! Feed me another line of bullshit.


To me Affirmative action only causes more division, because people now think they didn't deserve it, (having to lower test scores) but maybe they had to lower because the playing field still isn't level. Remember, I've seen it and been a part of it.

[backscatter712]

22. The rich authoritarians don't want thoughtful, educated cops. They want cheap thugs. n/t

[RZM]

23. By 'rich authoritarians' do you mean the Obama administration?

Because this idea apparently came from Holder's Justice Department. I assume you meant more right leaning types, which doesn't make sense either, since they tend to be against affirmative action and in any case don't seem to be involved here.