EDITED: Fukushima radiation has made it to South Carolina and Florida. Expected soon in Europe.

[Stinky The Clown]

on edit - hit "post" too soon. Fixing now . . . .

Progress Energy confirms radiation from Japan detected in US

RALEIGH, N.C. --

Progress Energy confirmed Saturday that radiation from the troubled nuclear power plant in Japan has been detected at Progress' nuclear plants in South Carolina and Florida.

Drew Elliot, Progress Energy spokesman, told NBC-17 News that there was "no threat to public health and safety" and that federal regulatory agencies "are not concerned about it."

Elliot said radiation levels were so low that the company was not required to notify federal officials, however, he said the company had been in contact with local leaders in South Carolina and Florida.

News of the radiation being detected at the Progress plants was first revealed by the nuclear power plant opposition group, NC WARN. NC WARN sent to the media what was described as an "internal Progress Energy communication."

More at this link:
http://www2.nbc17.com/news/wake-county/2011/mar/26/progress-energy-confirms-radiation-japan-detected--ar-894755/

Other reports have cited confirmation that the Iodine 131 isotopes can be traced back to Fukushima, but this article didn't mention that.





Meanwhile, Reuters is saying that "harmless" radiation may soon reach Europe:

Harmless Japan radiation may reach Europe soon: expert

(Reuters) - Harmless traces of Japan's nuclear accident may reach Europe in a week's time, part of a normally ignored background of radiation whose effects include a premium for pre-1945 steel such as in old shipwrecks.

Fallout from the 1945 U.S. bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and nuclear tests, along with accidents such as at Chernobyl in 1986, have spread a pervasive background of radiation around the globe.

"We expect that maybe in seven days from now we could detect some atoms, with very, very exact instruments here in Sweden," Klas Idehaag, reactor inspector at the Swedish Radiation Safety Authority, said on Friday. "But it will be no effect on the environment or for people," he said.

Low-level leaks of radiation from the Fukushima plant in Japan, crippled by an earthquake and tsunami a week ago, have been detected on the U.S. west coast after crossing the Pacific, diplomatic sources said in Vienna on Friday.

More here:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/18/us-japan-quake-spread-idUSTRE72H5XZ20110318

[tammywammy]

1. link? n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

2. Link added

It was missing because I screwed up the posting process and hit "post" prematurely.

[tammywammy]

4. I think we've all prematurely posted at some point.

:)

[Lost-in-FL]

3. I am sorry but...

but I have a hard time believing that specially coming from Progress Energy.

I no longer rely on "corporate credibility".

[Buzz Clik]

6. Which part don't you believe? That radiation has been detected?

:shrug:

[Lost-in-FL]

8. The source.

It is very POSSIBLE for radiation to reach the US... yes... I do not doubt that. But how can they tell if it is from Japan? We are talking radiation here, not viruses.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. Do you know that radiation has no signature or are you speculating?

[Lost-in-FL]

19. I am no physics genius or close but I've never heard of...

any "markings" or "signatures" beside atomic number, half-life, mass, etc. to identify elements, isotopes or compounds. There are very many types of radiation, but I don't know if you can pinpoint to "specifics" on the event of radiation leakage coming from different sources. How can you tell if this radiation is specifically from Japan.

Let me explain myself better with a question: If you have a plant in Russia and another one in Peru, under the same conditions (same source of radiation, same plant, similar accident)... how can you tell which "radiative particles" comes from where when both come from the same source?

Please, someone explain the "physics"-impeared.

[Stinky The Clown]

23. I can't explain it, either, but I've been learning about it of late reading news sources

I have come to believe that it is possible to determine the source of radiation. I can't even tell you why I believe that, specifically, but I can tell you that I have been convinced by reading conflicting stories from different sources and then applying my own personal . . . . gut feeling as to all that I've read. Essentially, I have formed an opinion.

I am still open to being convinced otherwise, but at the moment, I believe it is possible.

[BrookBrew]

25. You are correct. Identifying Unique signatures

is used by the UN to inspect and enforce the NPT for example.

[BrookBrew]

24. Sure. My background is with CCD and CMOS sensors

not ionizing radiation but here goes. The nuclear fuel in use is blended in a precessing plant. It is sampled and to confirm it has been made correctly. I would assume they use a mass spec like tool to determine its contents for QA reasons. That would then be recorded.

Most likely the sensors in these plants have detected some radioactive Iodine or other compound. From the Iodine alone they probably cant determine its origin, but I am not an expert in that area.

All things emit energy (radiation, visible light, IR can be felt heat) a detector can be used to record visible light striking it and then convert it to a usable image (your digital camera). That image started with particles hitting a sensor and creating a unique signal.

I would ASSUME with a substance like enriched uranium its rate of decay can be measured and specific composition can be determined to form a fingerprint.

This technology would be needed to trace nuclear weapons.

[flamingdem]

29. Very specific isotope are appearing here that indicate the Fukushima plant

Such as isotopes not normally seen in the USA

Cesium
Iodine
Tritium

[quaker bill]

40. Cesium and Iodine

isotopes are present in the US. Cesium is the radioactive source in nuclear density gages used all over the place to measure the density of concrete. Iodine 131 is a radiation therapy agent used in certain cancer treatments. It also occurs at low levels naturally. Every drop of water on the planet contains Tritium at some minute level.

The question is when levels rise consistent with expected timing of wind currents, the isotopes are likely from Japan. The environmental levels of all of these are known and nearly constant, so increases can be assigned to a source.

[Lost-in-FL]

32. You are all great people. Thanks for the input. nt

[catenary]

36. Some people are willing to believe bad news no matter where it comes from, and

conversely reject any positive reports even if they're from the same source. It reminds me of salad-bar 'christians' and how they pick and choose bits from the Book of Myths that support their preconceptions.

[Lost-in-FL]

39. Any good news coming from Japan you can enlighten me about?

That radiation is still massive but not as massive as they first thought. Is that it? Reminds me of "Candide" suddenly.

[Teaser]

5. ZOMG WE'RE SCREWN!!!!!

this, plus all the radiation from the UNSHIELDED SPACE REACTOR reaching us every NINE MINUTES will KILL US ALL.

[ellenfl]

7. how can they tell it's from fukushima? the accent?

could these plants be using fukushima to cover their own leaks or does each nuclear plant have its own 'signature'?

ellen fl

[drm604]

9. Any signature would have to be based on something like isotope ratios,

and I131 is a single isotope. I don't see how it could be possibly be traced to a particular source.

[Lost-in-FL]

10. HA! Good point!! nt

[Teaser]

11. they can't.

it may be, but they can't *know* that without knowing the expected distribution of particles fukushima throws. If it fits with the models of diffusion and whatnot, it seems a good bet.

That said, the detection thresholds are set intentionally quite low. It could simply be a very unlikely random detection generated by the background distribution.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. No, they can tell the source of an isotope.

I am not a nuclear scientists, but from what I have read, it is possible to know the source of certain radiation by its signature.

I don't know how, and I am sure many DUers will weigh in with all sorts of facts and theories about why that is or isn't possible. I trust my own conclusion based on a wide variety of sources. My (narrow) conclusion is that determining the source of even very low levels of radiation is possible. I am not saying I know for certain it has happened in this case. I am only saying that it is possible.

[Mr Generic Other]

17. plus

the prevailing wind patterns and the arrival of radioactive particles from japan at other sites in the US indicate that the radioactive particles are from there.
the reason that it is the nuclear industry that is picking up the elevated readings is because they are the ones with the equipment to detect it. this does not necessarily indicate local leaking.

[Old and In the Way]

14. Interesting.

Not saying this is the case here, but I could see where Fukushima could be used to pin the blame on a reactor leak in the foreseeable future. Any other reactor problems are not going to be treated as SOP by the public anytime soon.

Is there a specific isotopic signature from Fukushima they can point to that allows them to make this statement as fact?

[Teaser]

15. "Is there a specific isotopic signature from Fukushima?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=751976&mesg_id=752153


There probably is. You could take a sample of the isotopes thrown in the vicinity of fukushima and look at what we're picking up over here.

Have to account for difference in diffusion: heavier isotopes aren't going to diffuse as fast as lighter ones. So ratio will be distorted somewhat, I'd imagine. Don't know if this is a significant effect relative to things like weather patterns, and the distances traveled.

In short: dunno, but someone has likely modeled it.

[Urban Prairie]

16. If the stricken Fukushima reactors were actually under control by now

or were in the process of being buried, then our concerns about what this ongoing catastrophe would of course soon become limited to what effect (if any) the already escaped radiation via water and atmospheric transport has caused.

However, obviously that is not the case presently, and we can only speculate on what is happening there, (besides what we have already been told) and the outcome, as well as whether there is any critical information being suppressed by TEPCO, who, just like BP, unfortunately has a checkered history of being just a "tad" dishonest about their activities, obligations, and responsibilities in obtaining and using energy that if misused and abused, could and would harm the health of thousands, if not millions of people.

So as far as I am concerned, any and all information that is released by them, must be taken with a grain of salt, and a bit of caution, if not suspicion, since it obviously is in their best interests to keep a tight grip of complete control over the Fukushima plant, and not eventually become forced to share it with any other group or agency, whether inside or outside of Japan. They are very fortunate in the sense that what they are trying to gain full control over, is so deadly, volatile, and dangerous, that it quite understandably discourages "participation" by anyone that is not obligated in any way to do so.

[uppityperson]

18. It is going around the world, will be everywhere. I wonder if this will give scientists a chance to

study wind patterns, how this is spreading. Remembering back to when Mt St Helens erupted and how the ash spread, it was fascinating. I HATE that this is happening, that this quake, tsunami, nuke plant meltdown happened, is happening, has and is affecting so many.

[MineralMan]

20. I think they're probably identifying it as coming from Fukushima

based on it being an active source of isotopes and the weather patterns. Since I-131 has a very short half-life, it's coming from an active situation, and Fukushima is the only one I'm aware of right now. Weather patterns are well-known, so that seems to me to be the reason they're identifying this material as being from that source.

The signature of such an incident is based on the particular grouping of isotopes released and their proportions. Individual isotopes can't be traced to a location, since they are simply what they are. If an entire group of isotopes is compared, a signature is probably possible. However, the fact that Fukishima is an active source of isotopes just now, is probably the most important evidence. Similar statements were made after Chernobyl, as global weather spread its released isotopes around the planet.

[flamingdem]

30. They got a signature in the change of isotopes from funcioning to nonfuncioning plant nt

[Rex]

21. They work overtime at not alarming the public.

We could all be dying and the report would still be 'harmless'. No matter how bad things get, this will always be downplayed...just like BP was.

[Shagbark Hickory]

22. What happens when it goes full circle and gets back to japan?

[catenary]

26. seppuku epidemic

:eyes:

[Bluenorthwest]

27. That second piece is a week old or more and it is very odd as

well. My State has a website that gives daily readings and reporting, as do my neighbor States, and the fact that we detected the radiation many days ago here is public knowledge, readily available without need for 'diplomatic sources'. I just don't get the deal with that. Insiders say the sky is blue. Those in the know are suggesting the sea is saline. Diplomatic sources telling me things might happen that already happened, which I can look up on the internet.
Radiation was already detected in Europe last week.

[Stinky The Clown]

31. So the essential fact is true?

[Bluenorthwest]

33. If the fact that 'might happen' is now 'has happened' is not

essential, than yes. Is it essential in emergencies to know if a threat is potential or active, or is that not important?
So in terms of timely information, it is not true, no. It is out of date. Timeliness is essential in reporting. How long after an event has happened is it alright to say 'it might happen'? Your added words claim that 'it might reach Europe' and then you posted a story that is out of date. So it has already reached Europe. Not might, has. Is there already. What you wrote today sir, is false due to being out of date. Not might, has already. Big difference. Large.
Is your assertion that it is not important to know the radiation has reached Europe, or when, how much, how long it took? Why is that?

[Stinky The Clown]

34. . . . . whatever . . .

[Bluenorthwest]

35. No, not 'whatever' at all.

It is a week old story, being presented as if it were news. For some reason. To me, it is reckless to foist off dated information as new during an emergency situation. You do not agree. But if this cloud had been deadly, 'is coming' and 'is already there' might be the difference between life and death. And thus, in emergencies, it is generally good to stay up to date and to be clear about the age of data you are sharing. Would it be cool to send someone to a toxic zone with a story from last week giving the all clear? If not, then you might be able to understand the habit I am speaking of. Err on the side of caution, I always say.
So I will go check today's readings for radiation in my area, you go read last week's readings. If I see anything to worry about, I'll let you know, next week.

[Stinky The Clown]

37. Whatever

In the weeds making mountains of molehills.

You made your point. It doesn't change anything, but you made it.

[WhiteTara]

28. Harmless and nothing to see.

Move along.

[caraher]

38. You can identify isotopes by doing spectroscopy

Most likely by gamma ray spectroscopy. Every isotope has a set of signature decays, and with the right equipment you can measure the energies of individual gamma rays and x-rays. Those energies tell you exactly which isotopes are present.

It's highly unlikely that one could pinpoint a source based on isotope ratios, however. Those would likely be scrambled significantly according to how different particles diffuse even if one started with an exact set of ratios.

These are traceable to Japan largely because the isotopes detected are fission products, and Fukushima is the only known source of large quantities of fission products in the atmosphere right now. I-131 is the real "telltale" isotope since its 8-day half life is too short for it to be leftover from Chernobyl, past atmospheric bomb tests, etc.

In principle one could get exactly the same "signature" from any source of uranium fission products, such as a local nuclear plant. But it would be incredibly implausible for there to be some other reactor spontaneously emitting fission products just at the time when Fukushima radiation might be expected to pass overhead. Unless you like wearing one of these: :tinfoilhat: