Cuban kayaker escapes to Oklahoma

[naaman fletcher]

Source: Daily Oklahoman

Before the Pan American Championships last October in Mexico City, Garcia sneaked away from his team upon arriving at the airport and hid in a small bin in the men's restroom for two hours.

...

A Portuguese kayak company noticed Garcia's abilities and offered him money for training, but the Cuban government kept the funds instead, he said.

...

Cuban authorities are telling Garcia's mother that her son wants to return to Cuba, that he is starving in the United States and begging in the streets.
...

“I miss a lot of things, my family, my friends, but I'm not going back,” he said. “I love Cuba, I really do. The culture, the people. I don't like the government.”

Read more: http://newsok.com/cuban-kayaker-escapes-to-oklahoma/article/3552184?custom_click=lead_story_title

---

What? I don't understand. "progressives" in the latin american forum teach that Cuba is a thriving democracy, and a virtual paradise. Certainly, it's not an island prison that prevents people from leaving. what gives? Perhaps this guy was paid by the CIA. Either that, or it's all a mistranslation.

[dipsydoodle]

1. LBN ? Happened last October.

.

[naaman fletcher]

2. Article was written and posted today.

I understand that LBN applies to when news is printed, not when it occurs.

[dipsydoodle]

3. Been a secret since October has it ?

:rofl:

[naaman fletcher]

4. I don't know..

ask the reporter. Or, you can help me resolve the issue of why people would flee cuba despite how highly you think of Castro.

[dipsydoodle]

6. I know a great old guy in London

who "fled" the USA.

[naaman fletcher]

86. Did the us try to prevent him from leaving?

[fittosurvive]

5. Yeah, they are "progressives" all right.

"Progressives" of the notion that a fascist military dictatorship is acceptable so long as it is perceived as coming from the left.

[Liberal Veteran]

7. Thank you for showing me the error of my Cuba worshipping ways.

From now on, it's Fox News only for me.










:eyes:

[malaise]

24. LOL

:rofl:

[Fuddnik]

8. Oklahoma?

I'd swim to Cuba to get out of there.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

I live here. How do you think I feel?

:evilgrin:

[bluestate10]

44. I feel your pain. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. I wish there were a smiley for a

:highfive:

[bluestate10]

43. Do you realize that you would have to swim through sand and rocks?

But, stick me in Oklahoma, I will be swimming in the lane right beside you to get out of that red state hellhole.

[catenary]

102. Don't do it nekkid, our catfish will nip off yer nub

for lunch. :D

[bluestateguy]

9. Cuba is not a democracy

but that said, I think it is long past time for us to lift the outdated, Cold War era trade embargo.

[Billy Burnett]

10. Then how do Cuba's parliamentarians get elected?

This might help explain ...

From last year...

Electoral Process Continues Smoothly Nationwide (Election season kickoff in Cuba)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x31936

[former9thward]

12. There was almost 100% turnout under Stalin too.

And his candidates got 99.9% of the vote. Imagine that!

[Billy Burnett]

13. So, Cuba = USSR?

You know nothing about Cuba, obviously.

[dipsydoodle]

15. It interesting to see replies

from those who've not even been been and just watch Fox News.

:hi:

[naaman fletcher]

19. So why did this guy have to flee?

Why didn't they let him go voluntarily?

[Mika]

60. Why don't you explain it?

"Flee"? Just gotta love that RW spin. :rofl:

If he were to be from any other nation he would = illegal alien or illegal migrant worker.

---

[Judi Lynn]

66. Maybe there's a time warp problem here. Without a doubt a lot of people tried to flee from Batista's

death squads, if they had the chance, the hideous "Masferrer's Tigers".

Otherwise, there just isn't any real explanation.

http://i.ytimg.com.nyud.net:8090/vi/uf_TuytCLj4/0.jpg

Help, commies.

[naaman fletcher]

85. So,

You deny that tens of thousands have fled Castro?

[naaman fletcher]

83. That's absurd

The difference is of course that it's not illegal for a Mexican to migrate. This guy had to break the law to flee Cuba. But of course you knew that.

[Mika]

94. As long as they get an exit visa. n/t

---

[naaman fletcher]

96. So all this guy had to do was apply for a visa?

yeah, right.

[former9thward]

17. I was there in 1995. I suspect I know far more than you do.

[Judi Lynn]

21. Brilliant. He has been in and out there for ages. Many of us have known that

for many years.

You are most clearly barking up the wrong tree here.

[dipsydoodle]

23. I was there for three weeks last October

as were thousand of other Europeans and Canadians. Maybe you're out of touch.

[Mika]

29. I've lived in Cuba, and have been going there regularly from the early 70's.

I can affirm that, based on your declaration, you do know nothing about Cuba (aside from a vacation at a resort). Plus, I know that Billy Burnett has been there dozens of times doing good works with Cubans.

Long term actual experience lends more weight to discussion than snark and quips.

---

[former9thward]

32. I was through out the country and never saw any "resort".

But since you claim to go there all the time I guess you know about those.

[a la izquierda]

38. You never saw a resort?

You weren't looking hard enough. Cuba is a vacation spot for people all over the world. Except Americans.

[former9thward]

No I wasn't looking for one.

I was there for another purpose. I wanted to see the country.

[Judi Lynn]

41. So you learned to sleep standing up, showered in the water falls, ate twigs and berries? n/t

[Mika]

48. Or maybe the only homeless person in Cuba (for a few weeks).

:rofl:



:hi:

---

[former9thward]

49. What a weird reply.

Do you really think the only places for traveler to sleep, etc. are resorts??? Well I guess in your world.

[Judi Lynn]

52. US citizens are unable to go to Cuba without government permission

if they spend a nickel there. That's not allowed by our treasury department. People the government learns about, and they DO watch all borders, assigning FBI and other personel to the airports to check passenger manifests, and question people getting off the planes, WILL be fined heavily. One man, Dan Snow, has even been imprisoned for his travel to Cuba.

Do you know some way to get around the island, buy food, a room to sleep in, without paying money to Cubans? If you do, make sure the U.S. Treasury Department doesn't find out.

[Mika]

53. Maybe former9thward is Cuban, and isn't saying.

:shrug:

Cubans are allowed to go - the rest of Americans and US residents are still travel banned (w/o a special OFAC permit).

---

[Judi Lynn]

55. Oh, right! He should have mentioned it. Makes all the difference in the world, doesn't it?

That never made sense to me, that the same people who make all that noise about how they hate Cuba are also the same ones who go back there, while all OTHERS in the U.S. are FORBIDDEN! How sane is that?

[former9thward]

57. Yes, I do and many others do also.

It is very easy to get to Cuba via of a third party country (Mexico, Bahamas, Canada, etc.). When I got there I hired a government tour guy and a driver. They let me go anywhere on the island as long as I paid the gas. Of course they had their own spin on things but overall they were very honest about problems and also good things. They had a list of things that they suggested I see but they allowed me to deviate from that if I wanted to see something else (such as the Bay of Pigs invasion area which I wanted to go to). At the end I tipped them each nine months of their government wages and they were very happy.

As far as coming back there is no difficulty as long as you don't tell on yourself. Border agents can't prove anything if you don't admit it. I do criminal defense and I know that Americans love to tell on themselves. If you don't you will be cool.

[Mika]

58. Maybe you want to edit your post - what you describe is illegal.

Just because you CAN go via a 3rd country, doesn't make it legal. Do some research on how OFAC/Dept of Treasury are sending notices to appear in court or pay 4-5 figure fines to people who have gone via 3rd countries. Sometimes these notices show up in the mail up to some years after the trips.

Just a heads up.

---

[former9thward]

62. Thank you for your heads up but describing illegal acts is not illegal.

My posts, just as anyone here, could be completely part of fantasy and imagination. They would not stand up in any court in the country as an admission.

[Mika]

65. Not all evidence is used in court.

If it was my post, I might remove the "I" and the "me". Seriously. :thumbsup:

---

[a la izquierda]

63. Umm, okay.

I live in Mexico part time for research purposes, and though I don't look for resorts, I know where they are and that they exist. You can't possibly be that unaware of Cuba's tourism industry and history.

[Mika]

68. Strange. Isn't it?

I stay away from my hometown's resorts (Miami), but I know where they are. When so much of the economy and employment and agriculture of Cuba is tourism and resort based, it is impossible that anyone going to go about Cuba to see the country to not know of resorts.

Strange. Isn't it? :shrug:

---

[Mika]

39. Actually, I stay with my family.

Or, if doing seminars in Havana or other cities, I stay with friends.

---

[dipsydoodle]

64. I assume you're having a laugh

if you don't know about the beach resorts throughout the island especially the ones on atolls 50km out at sea.

Varadero was a resort in 1910 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varadero

[former9thward]

104. Post #57 describes my activities there.

Yes I'm very aware there are resorts in Cuba. I said I did not see any there because I didn't go there for that.

[catenary]

101. Wait, you mean Cuba, Missouri, right?

:rofl:

[dipsydoodle]

14. There is obviously some thing you can't quite grasp about socialist states.

.

[former9thward]

18. I'm sure you will inform me once you think of something.

[joshcryer]

59. Candidiate commissions are not democratic.

[Judi Lynn]

69. Democratic like "electoral colleges"? n/t

[joshcryer]

97. "Electoral colleges" do not dictate who your CANDIDATES are.

[Mika]

100. Neither do Cuba's candidate commissions (the officers are elected, btw).

The commissions validate the candidates (as in: residing in the district they represent, or their criminal background, or their currently being in the military, etc).

---

[joshcryer]

106. That's false. You are not allowed to be a candidate without vetting by the commissions.

Why else would the Valera Project exist?

[Judi Lynn]

103. So? They determine who wins, regardless of what the popular vote is. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

105. And our mass media decide which candidates are "viable"

Why else do you think that the mass media started acting as if Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton were the only Democratic candidates (there were actually 8) early in 2007, before a single caucus or primary had been held?

Sure, anyone can run, but the corporate media decide whose name gets before the public.

[joshcryer]

108. Yes, the MSM is bullshit, but Cuba is all publicly funded. Read about the Varela Project.

[joshcryer]

107. So? The US only allows teabaggers to be candidates. "We still determine who wins."

Really ridiculous logic there.

[bluestate10]

47. BTW. What is Cuba? Raul and Fidel claim that it is a socialist state. nt

[Taverner]

11. When I first read that I thought "Wow - Kayaking to a land locked state! That's bold!"

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. Somebody flees Cuba in search of greater personal opportunities and he's a hero -

Somebody walks from Guatamala to Arizona in search of greater personal opportunities, and he's a fucking criminal who should have been shot on the border.

Anybody else have a problem with this?

[Judi Lynn]

20. And hundreds of people coming on foot die annually in the effort.

So many perish in the effort in extraoridarily painful conditions.

As you know, U.S. Americans who even attempt to place water bottles in the desert in case they might save lives are themselves prosecuted if caught.

With Cuban nationals, through the U.S. Cuban Adjustment Act, any Cuban, regardless of personal history makes it to dry land on his/her own, by whatever means, and many simply take the friggin' airplane, that person is entitled to instant legal status, no Immigration agents chasing them around, throwing them in jail, deporting them, instant work visa, instant social security, welfare, food stamps, US taxpayer-derived Section 8 free housing, medical treatment, financial assistance for education, etc., etc., etc.

Just imagine what would happen here if the very same benefits were extended to any other islands or Central American countries. We would be jammed in here shoulder to shoulder.

Cubans are important for their political value. Period. That's why they offer them a complete smorgasbord of "perks" to attract them to the U.S. and away from their own country. They offer them a package as close to Cuba's as possible.

What people don't discuss is the number of Cubans who actually go home.

[naaman fletcher]

22. "What people don't discuss is the number of Cubans who actually go home."

1. Please enlighten us.

2. Do you support Governments that prevent their people from leaving the country?

[Judi Lynn]

28. Are you saying you are unaware that Cubans go home from the U.S.?

It not only is commonly known throughout South Florida, (and throughout the rest of the world where Cubans have migrated) it was also discussed openly in a book by former NY Times journalist and author, Ann Louise Bardach, who mentioned these immigrants in her book, Cuba Confidential:Love and Vengeance In Miami and Havana, which was published before Bush destroyed the earlier guidelines for US travel to Cuba by selected U.S. Americans, and Cuban "exiles" and their and progeny:

In Cuba, one used to be either a revolucionario or a contrarevolucionario, while those who decided to leave were gusanos (worms) or escoria (scum). In Miami, the rhetoric has also been harsh. Exiless who do not endorse a confrontational policy with Cuba, seeking instead a negotiated settlement, have often been excoriated as traidores (traitors) and sometimes espías (spies). Cubans, notably cultural stars, who visit Miami but chooses to return to their homeland have been routinely denounced. One either defects or is repudiated.

But there has been a slow but steady shift in the last decade-a not to the clear majority of Cubans en exilio and on the island who crave family reunification. Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriots who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero, or comrade), are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning home to Cuba for long holidays.

Page XVIII
Preface
Cuba Confidential
Love and Vengeance
In Miami and Havana

Copyright© 2002 by Ann Louise Bardach

[dipsydoodle]

31. "a negotiated settlement"

aka we want our land and factories back.

aka get real and get a life.

[Judi Lynn]

35. They don't want people to know that Cuba offered them compensation long, LONG ago,

just like the property owners who live in other countries, and other corporations outside the US with property in Cuba.

Everyone ELSE took the money and that was the end of it, but those in the U.S. believed they would just hold out, not "trade with the enemy" and the U.S. would grab that country back for them in a flash.

When that didn't happen, they just decided to make themselves comfortable here and bitch and whine and bomb, or shoot people who don't agree with them for 50+ years.

[Mika]

45. Judi, US based claimants cannot settle with Cuba because of the Trading w/the Enemy Act.

Title III of Helms-Burton waives that condition, BUT ... every president since H-B has signed waivers of H-B Title III (keeping it illegal to settle property claims with Cuba).

The US's Cuba policy is a f-ing twisted pretzel.

---

[Judi Lynn]

50. Lucky for the previous owners in Canada, Europe, and Latin America,

their countries weren't stupid enough to ennact anything like the "Trading with the Enemy Act".

Of course, the US has been trying to control Cuba since the 1800's, hasn't it?

[Mika]

56. J.C. Breckenridge, U.S. Undersecretary of War in 1897, sent the following memo....

The Breckenridge Memorandum
http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/bmemo.htm
J.C. Breckenridge, U.S. Undersecretary of War in 1897,
sent the following memo to the Commander of the U.S.
Army, Lieutenant General Nelson A. Miles. The memo
explains what is to be U.S. policy towards Cuba.

{snip}

It is obvious that the immediate annexation of these disturbing elements into our own federation in such large numbers would be sheer madness, so before we do that we must clean up the country, even if this means using the methods Divine Providence used on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

We must destroy everything within our cannons’ range of fire. We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army. The allied army must be constantly engaged in reconnaissance and vanguard actions so that the Cuban army is irreparably caught between two fronts and is forced to undertake dangerous and desperate measures.

-

When this moment arrives, we must create conflicts for the independent government. That government will be faced with these difficulties, in addition to the lack of means to meet our demands and the commitments made to us, war expenses and the need to organize a new country. These difficulties must coincide with the unrest and violence among the aforementioned elements, to whom we must give our backing.

To sum up, our policy must always be to support the weaker against the stronger, until we have obtained the extermination of them both, in order to annex the Pearl of the Antilles.

---

[Judi Lynn]

61. He and those like him had an unbearable contempt for people of other cultures.

That memorandum clearly could make anyone's skin crawl who is in anyway sane, and human.

Hideous.

It's unfortunate to note that the man to whom he wrote it would agree completely, being the man who authored the slaughter of so many Native Americans on the US American Great Plains, and the American Southwest.

Sad, sad, damned sad.

Thanks for the facts.

[naaman fletcher]

89. No

I asked you two questions, you answered neither.

[dipsydoodle]

25. jammed in here shoulder to shoulder

Remember chatting about the Mariel boatlift comedy.

The Mariel boatlift was a mass exodus of Cubans who departed from Cuba's Mariel Harbor for the United States between April 15 and October 31, 1980.

The event was precipitated by a sharp downturn in the Cuban economy which led to internal tensions on the island and a bid by up to 10,000 Cubans to gain asylum in the Peruvian embassy.

The Cuban government subsequently announced that anyone who wanted to leave could do so, and an exodus by boat started shortly afterward. The exodus was organized by Cuban-Americans with the agreement of Cuban president Fidel Castro. The exodus started to have negative political implications for U.S. president Jimmy Carter when it was discovered that a number of the exiles had been released from Cuban jails and mental health facilities. The Mariel boatlift was ended by mutual agreement between the two governments involved in October 1980. By that point, as many as 125,000 Cubans had made the journey to Florida.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariel_boatlift

Surprising really how long it took the US to realise they were being treated as mugs.

[Judi Lynn]

26. Amazing how the Miami "exile" hardliners got their noses out of joint when they discovered

there were Africa-Cubans in the mix. They are STILL bitching about it, or were the last time I checked on a board frequented heavily by "exile" Batistianos.

They had things just the way they liked them in Cuba under their own dictates, with black people being "invisible" and doing ALL the hard labor, menial work, and seasonal labor.

African Cubans weren't allowed to go into the public city parks, etc. with the Spanish Cubans for a long time, nor the other places they frequented.

There was a strict separatist policy.

That old sense of entitlement, that racism continue among their spawn in Miami.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. The double standard is just astounding

Cubans taking it upon themselves to jump the immigration queue, good, other Latinos, even those from really repressive countries, taking it upon themselves to jump the immigration queue, bad.

[Judi Lynn]

40. You're right, as in the desperate people in Haiti during the Bush-arranged overthrow of Aristide,

when the US-financed, outfitted, trained death squads organized in the D.R., and came across the border slaughtering Haitians in their road, and terror-stricken Haitians tried so desperately to leave on boats, and _{George W. Bush} met their desperation with a blockade of US Navy and Coastguard ships around the island, who blocked their way, scooped them up and fed them right back into that meat grinder.

It would be a miracle if ANY of them survived that monstrous move by _Bush.

In the meantime, US taxpayers' hard earned money continues to flow out to support for all the Cuban nationals who decide to make the trip and take up free residence, free from US immigration pursuit, freedom from waiting in lines for forms, interviews, etc., free food, and housing right here. We are only too forced to finance them. If we hold back from our taxes going for total miscarriages of justice like this, we're off to prison in a heart beat.

[Mika]

27. A real gem of an immigrant.

He abandons his wife and child, then, after he gets to Miami, he and his family pay human smugglers to illegally smuggle his wife into Miami, USA (today, costing between $10K and $20K per person) - leaving the child w/o parents back in Cuba. Meanwhile he's in Ok and she's not joined him there. Baby back in Cuba, parents waiting for proper status to petition for family reunification - all on our dime.

A real stand-up guy (and his wife), a genuine asset to the US immigrant community. :eyes:

---

[Judi Lynn]

30. He wasn't getting the accolades he believed a mighty kayaker deserves.

It should be interesting to see how his kayaking career takes right off here!

You have brought up some points the crasser among us seem to feel are completely appropriate.

They seem to overlook the huge amoung of time invested in professionals in Cuba by the trainers and teachers provided by the government which these bozos take for free then use to go shopping for big dollars somewhere else, where, as you pinpoint, the taxapeyers ALSO pay for their accomodations.

Smooooth move, for those who are so disposed. Most aren't, fortunately for the future of the world.

If he wanted to go somewhere else, he should have gone BEFORE the government sank all that time and effort into his training.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. Reminds me of an East German swimmer who "defected" during the 1980s

He admitted that he was totally apolitical and had been lured over by a generous offer of a swimming scholarship from the University of Alabama, but he still "defected" and asked for "political asylum."

Now that Germany is reunited, and thinking about the cultural gap between Germany and Alabama, I wonder where that swimmer is now.

[Judi Lynn]

42. Argh! Can't imagine the cultural shock, Lydia Leftcoast. No doubt he came to regret it fast!

And yet they chalked one up for the old "defection" game.

It really figures.

[Avant Guardian]

36. Read 'Open veins of Latin America' and you too will understand

Capitalism has been very, very bad for Latin America.

[Judi Lynn]

46. I saw a writer last week comparing the US view of Latin America as the belief

Latin America is merely the U.S.'s warehouse.

Thanks for mentioning the "Open Veins of Latin America". Eduardo Galeano.

Available at Amazon. People are far better off for reading it.

http://www.amazon.com/Open-Veins-Latin-America-Centuries/dp/0853459916

[Mika]

51. Here's another book for the under-informed here.

Written by a Canadian scholar of democratic processes...

Democracy in Cuba and the 1997-98 Elections


Product Description
A first-hand account of Cuba's experience with democracy.
Democracy has been briefly defined as the "rule of the people". This book offers you a profound historical view followed by a thorough inside look at how this "rule of the people" is now working in Cuba. The examination of two weather vane constituencies - one in Havana and another in the countryside of Cienfuegos Province - helps the author to present a detailed description of the nomination of candidates and the elections at all levels, as well as accountability of the elected to the citizens.

The author, Arnold August, is the first non-Cuban who has directly attended virtually all the steps of the contemporary Cuban electoral process in order to write a book on the subject. He has based the content of this volume on many months of painstaking research, personal observation and interviews in Cuba.

Several academics have mentioned that this book contributes to the analysis of Cuba's history with regards to its striving for democracy, as well as synthesizes for the first time so minutely the entire electoral process.

The 416 page book contains 135 photographs, the majority taken by the author during the course of the 1997-98 elections.

http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-1997-98-Elections-Arnold-August/dp/0968508405/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1301258795&sr=1-1

Its about $15 right now.

---

[Judi Lynn]

54. People really should read that. It can be purchased on line, too.

It took a Canadian to write it.

The US takes a dim view of anyone not toeing the same dictated line on Cuba, no matter what evidence there is to the contrary.

That's one reason it's taking so long to allow travel to Cuba: they just can't take the embarrassment to follow when so many US Americans learn what the reality is.

[apocalypsehow]

67. Well, Cuba's dictatorial government has turned the country into a shithole with its absurd policies

Despite all the dismissive sniffing about Oklahoma, I suspect the vast majority of posters here, given six months living in Cuba and then six months living in any American Red State, then told to choose one or the other as a place to permanently reside, would quietly choose the latter while still flocking to discussion boards proclaiming their love for the Cuban Revolution - from the relative comfort and safety (compared to Cuba) of, say, Topeka, of course.

[Judi Lynn]

70. Maybe you could explain how safe some US red states have been for "northerners"

or voters rights workers or any number of "minorities" in order to give substance to your claim.

I and my husband were chased out of a town in Mississippi on a trip between Florida and New Orleans by a "pick'em-up truck" full of red faced idiots with a shotgun rack in the back after my husband told one of them to get his boot off the back of our car when we stopped to get some food.

Yep, looks as if you've got the lowdown on how things work.

On edit:
Uh, I should have stopped to mention all the tortured, lynched, murdered people both black and white and others who didn't please the locals in red states in the U.S.

[apocalypsehow]

78. Yep, got the "lowdown" on how things work in 2011 America. Sounds like you're stuck in 1961 with the

stereotypical cliches and accusatory broad-brushing of entire regions of the United States.

"I and my husband were chased out of a town in Mississippi on a trip between Florida and New Orleans by a "pick'em-up truck" full of red faced idiots with a shotgun rack in the back after my husband told one of them to get his boot off the back of our car when we stopped to get some food"

Uh-huh....

"Uh, I should have stopped to mention all the tortured, lynched, murdered people both black and white and others who didn't please the locals in red states in the U.S"

In 2011? In 2001? In 1991? In 1981? Hell, I doubt you can even find me an instance of such a thing happening on a routine basis anywhere in the United States as far back as 1971. The Sixties are over, and the old slogans and cliches are passe. Get over it.



Edit: typo.

[Judi Lynn]

81. Routine? It was never routine. You know that. Attempting to misrepresent my comments.

The DU'ers here are more than aware of the torture/horizontal lynching of Charles Byrd in Texas by Klansmen right before _{George W. Bush} became the pResident. Many believed it was his responsibility to make an official statement about that grotesque atrocity, and to attend his funeral, but he opted to refrain.

The very idea you intend to claim the same deep, seething hostility is NOT there is all anyone needs to know about your orientation.

As for attempting to claim I have lied about an incident, that I manufactured it for fun, or that my husband and I were a couple of paranoid goofballs who misunderstood our situation, you have no right whatsoever, and it shows you are deeply desperate, so desperate you are willing to slur others just in hope you can save your case.

Doomed to failure.

[apocalypsehow]

93. And right on cue, the irrelevant reply coupled with the pedestrian personal attack. Textbook. n/t.

[Fuddnik]

98. In 1972 I was hitchhiking from Ohio to Miami.

I still remember the KKK billboards in the Carolinas. White robed horsemen.

[apocalypsehow]

110. I'm sure you do.

White robed horsemen? In 1972?

I think I'll file this under "more evidence needed."

:eyes:

[road2000]

99. In 1981? Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Donald

Snip:
Morris Dees, founder of the Southern Poverty Law Center, brought a wrongful death suit on behalf of Beulah Mae Donald.<8> The Klan was hit with a $7 million wrongful-death verdict in the case.<8> The settlement bankrupted the United Klans of America. The Donald family was given the deed to the UKA meeting hall in Tuscaloosa County, Alabama.<8> Beulah Mae Donald used the settlement to buy her first home.<8> She died in 1987.

[apocalypsehow]

109. 1981? No. Reading before you post is essential:

"Hell, I doubt you can even find me an instance of such a thing happening on a routine basis*"

Not even close. Please try again.




*emphases added.

[Mika]

71. The vast majority of posters here have never been to Cuba.

But, if we polled the posters who have been to Cuba we might get a surprise. ;-)

I live in Florida - about as RW in government as anyplace - and I would move to Cuba in a heartbeat if I could.

---

_

[Judi Lynn]

73. A poster who used to post on CNN's old US-Cuba relations board said she, too, would move there,

as she had always wanted to retire to Cuba, but had learned the U.S. refuses to send peoples's social security checks there, which would discourage a whole lot of people who have similar thoughts from moving there, as well, after retirement.

Odd detail. Very odd.

[Mika]

76. Lets poll people who've never been there and don't know anything about it.

I guess that if the US were a "true" democracy, we'd still be a segregated nation and there'd be no women's suffrage, or labor rights, or child labor laws, or ....

---

[Judi Lynn]

79. Oh, jeez. Isn't THAT the truth? People would work until the drop in their tracks,

and children would be working in the factories.

Constant stream of cheap, desperate labor.

That is a fact.

Women would be stuffed into their kitchens, coming out only long enough to bear children until they simply died in childbirth, or from exhaustion, if they weren't privileged enough to be one of the very few mega-rich.

What a democratic paradise we just missed by a hair!

Their "democracy" nearly did us in. Still trying, too.

[apocalypsehow]

80. "I would move to Cuba in a heartbeat if I could" - Oh, but you *CAN*. There is absolutely nothing

stopping you from traveling to Canada or Mexico on a U.S. passport, visiting the Cuban embassy in either country, and there state your desire to immigrate to their nation. It would violate U.S. law, of course, but you don't seem all that keen on your home country anyway, so that shouldn't be any big deal.

"But, if we polled the posters who have been to Cuba we might get a surprise"

On this, we are agreed. But I'd take it even further: I wonder if we polled how many wanted to stay after such clandestine visits - as long as the poll was anonymous; everyone likes to keep up their "more revolutionary than thou" poses on discussion boards - we'd get a surprise, too. And not one to please the pro-Cuban dictatorship posters in this thread. ;-)

[Judi Lynn]

82. You're drifting without a paddle by the time you start trying to smear posters.

Referring to people as "pro-Cuban dictatorship posters" is a cry for help.d

Why not keep the subject in mind instead of trying to turn and mock DU'ers, anyway?

[apocalypsehow]

90. Not a bit of it: the Cuban government is a dictatorship, and there are posters who are "pro" that

government in the sense that they are defending the society it has created in that benighted country. Far from being a "smear," it is a spot-on description.

"Referring to people as "pro-Cuban dictatorship posters" is a cry for help.d (Sic)"

And right on cue: a call for stopping a perceived version of a personal attack is followed up in the very next line with a personal attack implying the other poster has some sort of mental issues that compel them to hold the opinions they do. Textbook.

"Why not keep the subject in mind instead of trying to turn and mock DU'ers, anyway?"

As I have consistently been doing just that, I assume you put this line of your reply into the wrong post, one meant for another poster. I'd look into that, if I were you.

[Mika]

92. Ho hum. You seem unaware of many things Cuba related.

Cuba does not have an open immigration policy as of now. Do you think you can just up and move to another country? Some countries use lotteries, waiting lists, etc, and some countries don't. What's the waiting time up to for Canada? 12 years or so?

FYI, I have lived in Cuba when I married the love of my life, a Cuban woman (who is since deceased as of 6/17/91). My in-laws live there and are very close to me. I lived there (in Havana at the time) during an entire election season, when I was able to attend and observe many political activities such as open nominations, candidate debates and voter based selections, nominations, elections, ratifications, etc etc.

You positing that there are supporters of dictatorship here is pure debasing nonsense and flame baiting.

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[Name removed]

95. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Modern_Matthew]

72. I find it strange anyone can support the Cuban government...

Imprisonment for speaking out against the government.

"The Cuban constitution says that free speech is allowed "in keeping with the objectives of socialist society" and that artistic creation is allowed "as long as its content is not contrary to the Revolution"."

Freedom of assembly is restricted.

Permission from government is needed to move to another home.

Cannot leave the country without permission. Often denied.

---

Even ONE of those is enough to reject a whole political system.

[Judi Lynn]

75. Take some time off learning more about the subject FIRST.

It would help you if you approach discussion from an information foundation.

[Mika]

77. I find it strange that anyone can support a gov't that militarily attacks another nation.

But yet, it happens right here, every day, on DU.

---

[Judi Lynn]

84. Amazing image. Thanks for posting it. n/t

[naaman fletcher]

88. Me too.

I don't support the US or the Cuban government.

[xchrom]

74. You and 9thward have had your

Asses handed to you in thread - yet in particular - you
Have had little to say.

Why is that?

[ReggieVeggie]

87. You've got to admit that's an ironic headline

He kayaked to Oklahoma? ;-)

[WillyT]

91. Well... I Guess He Could Have Taken The Panama Canal And Landed In Orange County...

:evilgrin:

:shrug: