Libyan Revolution Day 41 (setbacks for the ragtag freedom fighters)

[joshcryer]

Links to sites with updates: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-30">AJE Live Blog March 30 (today) http://blogs.aljazeera.net/twitter-dashboard">AJE Twitter Dashboard http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12776418">BBC Live Blog http://live.reuters.com/Event/Middle_East_Protests">Reuters Live Blog http://feb17.info/">feb17.info http://www.livestream.com/libya17feb?utm_source=lsplayer&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=footerlinks">Libya Alhurra (live video webcast from Benghazi) http://www.libyafeb17.com/">libyafeb17.com

Twitter links: http://twitter.com/#!/aymanm">Ayman Mohyeldin, with AJE http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn">Ben Wedeman, with CNN http://twitter.com/#!/tripolitanian">tripolitanian, a Libyan from Tripoli http://twitter.com/#!/BaghdadBrian">Brian Conley, reporter in Libya http://twitter.com/#!/freelibyanyouth">FreeLibyanYouth, Libyan advocate http://twitter.com/#!/LibyaFeb17_com">LibyaFeb17.com twitter account http://twitter.com/#!/ChangeInLibya">ChangeInLibya, Libyan advocate

Useful links: http://audioboo.fm/feb17voices">feb17voices http://www.google.com/search?q=time+in+libya">Current time in Libya http://www.islamicfinder.org/cityPrayerNew.php?country=libya">Prayer times in Libya

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x764694">Day 40 part 2 here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixwx_B38678">Marching On in Libya, for the revolutionaries!

Revolutionaries watch shelling on the frontline outside Bin Jawaad (note their age)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/29/vision-democratic-libya-interim-national-council">Libyan Karzai? Chalabi? Forget it
Fortunately, the Council wasn't made-in-the-USA or manufactured by another foreign power. Rather it came into existence, a month ago, at Libyans' own initiative, soon after the winds of revolutionary change blew Libya's way, and after its people rose to the occasion with pride and courage.

Most of the 31 council members are unknown to the media. And the few with a mandate to attain Western and international recognition have used all contacts from their previous official roles or grabbed onto Western overtures through whatever channels possible, even unsavoury French connections, to get it.

Sources close to the council claim Western powers have opened channels of communications not in return for future Libyan concessions but rather out of concern that they would be left out of post-Gaddafi Libya and its economic opportunities.

And unlike some of the Libyan diplomats who jumped ship all too recently, and who shifted their position from loyalty to Gaddafi to passionate proponents of Western ground military intervention, the Transitional Council has insisted on a limited UN authorized intervention.

I wish I could post the full article. It's a must read. LIBYA HURRA!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/29/vision-democratic-libya-interim-national-council">A vision of a democratic Libya
The interim national council, formed by opposition groups in Libya, has said it will hold free and fair elections and draft a national constitution. Here is its eight-point plan in full.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/29/gaddafi-challenge-libya-conference">Gaddafi issues defiant challenge to Libya conference in London
The full text shows the Libyan leader to be baffled by the ingratitude of the world towards him after years of rapprochement and utterly dismissive of concerns about the use of violence against his own people.

Gaddafi argued that there was no need for foreign intervention, that Libya's "direct democracy" had no parallel and that its oil resources were the property of its people – a reference to the widespread perception among his supporters that the war is a conspiracy to divide the country and steal its natural resources.

Libya has made every effort to help solve global problems, abandoned its weapons of mass destruction, helped the international effort to fight "extremist terrorism", controlled illegal immigration to Europe and played a positive role in Africa. "There were no demonstrations in Libya or protests like in Tunisia and Egypt," he claimed.

"No one opened fire on demonstrators. No more than 150 people were killed and most of those were soldiers and policemen who were defending themselves." He attacked a "deliberately fabricated image" of Libya to justify the "second crusader war", accusing the coalition of committing "merciless massacres".

Hey, Gaddafi? I don't have the energy right now to respond to that nonsense. But I have been reading a bit of wikileaks lately, and it appears your sorry ass http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294913/LIBYA-POSTPONES-GENERAL-PEOPLES-CONGRESS-WALKS-BACK-FROM-WEALTH-DISTRIBUTION-AND-PRIVATIZATION-PLANS.html">abandoned the wealth distribution plan. You fucking lying dog, you were never going to actually distribute the oil wealth to the people. Big shock there.

Video of the convoy sent to take Benghazi, taken from a dead soliders cell phone (shows how massive the operation was): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWwOeZqz6M

Sky News went with Gaddafi minders to find a "civilian town bombed" only they were never shown any such thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O5KJavfiQo

TNC presser talking about various details of the revolution (thanks to Waiting for Everyone): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=730234&mesg_id=731532

Topic on the women of the revolution, dispels myths that they are treated poorly: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x594751

Videos to bring the Libyan Revolution into context:

The Battle of Benghazi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vChMDuNd0

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaPnMnpCAA

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMzwQvcx62s

Tea of Freedom Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD5tu5bJWKc

Latest indiscriminate shelling in Misurata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wop3C4zrPXI

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x677397">Text of the resolution.

How will a no fly zone work? AJE reports: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWEwehTtK2k

Canada: http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110317/cf-libya-canada/20110317/?hub=WinnipegHome">Canada to send six CF-18s for Libya 'no-fly' mission Norway: http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFOSN00509220110318">Norway to join military intervention in Libya Belgium: http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/monde/2011-03-18/la-belgique-prete-a-une-operation-militaire-en-libye-828970.php">Belgium ready for a military operation in Libya Qatar and the UAE: http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/776/?SID=e80884adc09a37d26904578a9b5978cb">Run-up for Western world’s next military commitment ... with unusual support Denmark: http://www.cphpost.dk/news/international/89-international/51229-denmark-ready-for-action-against-gaddafi.html">Denmark ready for action against Gaddafi France: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/world/africa/19libya.html?src=twrhp">Following U.N. Vote, France Vows Libya Action ‘Soon’ Italy: http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE72G2HE20110317">Italy to make bases available for Libya no-fly zone-source United Kingdom: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12770467">Libya: UK forces prepare after UN no-fly zone vote United States: http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/nations-draw-up-plans-for-no-fly-zone-over-libya-1.2765122">Nations draw up plans for no-fly zone over Libya Jordan: http://www.smh.com.au/world/military-strikes-on-libya-within-hours-20110318-1bzii.html?from=smh_sb">Military strikes on Libya 'within hours' Spain: http://english.cri.cn/6966/2011/03/19/2801s627320.htm">Spain Expected to Join NATO No-fly Zone Enforcement over Libya

"One month ago (Western countries) were sooo nice, so nice like pussycats," Saif says in a contemptuous sing-song tone."Now they want to be really aggressive like tigers. (But) soon they will come back, and cut oil deals, contracts. We know this game." - http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058389,00.html">Saif Gaddafi

(Yeah, Saif, as if you weren't "cutting oil deals, contracts" with western states. Who are the 'tigers' now? Bombing your own people.)

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0">March 10 7:28pm Saif al Islam Gaddafi says "the time has come for full-scale military action" against Libyan rebels. He goes on to say that Libyan forces loyal to his family "will never surrender, even if western powers intervene".

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2011/04/04/110404taco_talk_anderson#ixzz1HvS7iW22">Who Are the Rebels?
Three of the world’s great armies have suddenly conspired to support a group of people in the coastal cities and towns of Libya, known, vaguely, as “the rebels.” Last month, Muammar Qaddafi, who combines a phantasmagorical sense of reality with an unbounded capacity for terror, appeared on television to say that the rebels were nothing more than Al Qaeda extremists, addled by hallucinogens slipped into their milk and Nescafé. President Obama, who is torn between the imperatives of rescuing Libyan innocents from slaughter and not falling into yet another prolonged war, described the same rebels rather differently: “people who are seeking a better way of life.”

During weeks of reporting in Benghazi and along the chaotic, shifting front line, I’ve spent a great deal of time with these volunteers. The hard core of the fighters has been the shabab—the young people whose protests in mid-February sparked the uprising. They range from street toughs to university students (many in computer science, engineering, or medicine), and have been joined by unemployed hipsters and middle-aged mechanics, merchants, and storekeepers. There is a contingent of workers for foreign companies: oil and maritime engineers, construction supervisors, translators. There are former soldiers, their gunstocks painted red, green, and black—the suddenly ubiquitous colors of the pre-Qaddafi Libyan flag.

And there are a few bearded religious men, more disciplined than the others, who appear intent on fighting at the dangerous tip of the advancing lines. It seems unlikely, however, that they represent Al Qaeda. I saw prayers being held on the front line at Ras Lanuf, but most of the fighters did not attend. One zealous-looking fighter at Brega acknowledged that he was a jihadi—a veteran of the Iraq war—but said that he welcomed U.S. involvement in Libya, because Qaddafi was a kafir, an unbeliever.

Outside Ajdabiya, a man named Ibrahim, one of many émigrés who have returned, said, “Libyans have always been Muslims—good Muslims.” People here regard themselves as decent and observant; a bit old-fashioned and parochial, but not Islamist radicals. Ibrahim is fifty-seven. He lives in Chicago, and turned over his auto-body shop and car wash to a friend so that he could come and fight. He had made his life in the United States, he said, but it was his duty as a Libyan to help get rid of Qaddafi––“the monster.”

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/02/25/world/middleeast/map-of-how-the-protests-unfolded-in-libya.html">Click here for updated map

Military Installations



Oil Map



http://bit.ly/fe3P">Google Earth DL here to see positions of army and patrolling route of mercenaries

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=212059469427545728757.00049c4df2474b6543347&ll=31.203405,30.058594&spn=96.173452,183.867188&z=3">MAP of Protests across the Middle East

Mohammed Nabbous, killed by Gaddafi's forces while trying to report on the massacre in Benghazi

"I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to lose the battle" -Mohammed Nabbous, a month ago when all this began

I'm struggling to come up with something to say about this man. I was not aware of the Libyan uprising until I saw Mo's first report, begging for help, posted here on DU. I was stricken. Here was a man giving everything he had to explain a situation that clearly terrified him, I would not call him a coward in that moment, but you could see the fear in his eyes, and desperation in his voice. For 30 days Nabbous would spend many hours covering the uprising in Benghazi. For many nights I would go to sleep with the webcast of Benghazi live on my computer screen, looking to it occasionally to be sure it was still 'there.' Mo treated the chat room as if we were his friends, and in some way, we were. I never signed up to LiveStream to thank him for all his work and it seems somewhat shallow to do so now, given that I was a lurker for so long. Ever since I took over posting these threads "Libya Alhurra" has been linked as a source of information. It wasn't until last night, when I posted, and twitter posted on Mo's adventures out into Benghazi to try to determine the truth of the situation, that Mo's webchannel became a hit, over 2000 people were watching him stream live. This was curious to him because he'd done many reports like this in the past but he appeared somewhat bemused that the view count exploded as it did. Last night Mo became a star. This is a man who first started out with a webcast replete with fear and desperation finally overcoming that aspect of himself and losing that fear, to become someone who was a fighter for the resistance just as much as those who held the guns. Reporting on the front lines of Benghazi became his final act, and for that he should never, ever be forgotten. I'm so sorry Mo that I never got to know you better.

Mo's first report, which many of you may remember, begging for help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38EXALI60hg

Mo's last report, a fallen hero trying to spread the word to the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecu_iWLn-rg

Mo leaves behind a wife who is with child, she had http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/23/a_bright_voice_from_libyas_darkness">this to say about the No Fly Zone and R2P UN resolution:

We started this in a pure way, but he turned it bloody. Thousands of our men, women, and children have died. We just wanted our freedom, that's all we wanted, we didn't want power. Before, we could not do a single thing if it was not the way he wanted it. All we wanted was freedom. All we wanted was to be free. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up. We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Libya got liberated by anybody else. If NATO didn't start moving when they did, I assure you, I assure you, half of Benghazi if not more would have been killed. If they stop helping us, we are going to be all killed because he has no mercy anymore.

[joshcryer]

1. Current time in Libya, 12:02am Wednesday, March 30

[pinboy3niner]

2. K&R

:hi:

[pinboy3niner]

3. Rebels lose ground in Libya as Gadhafi forces go on the offensive

Source: CNN

Rebels lose ground in Libya as Gadhafi forces go on the offensive


By the CNN Wire StaffMarch 29, 2011 -- Updated 2135 GMT (0535 HKT)


Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- Forces loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi went on the attack Tuesday, pushing opposition fighters back to the outskirts of a key oil town, rebels said, as world diplomats met in London to discuss the future of the North African nation.

Opposition fighters in Bin Jawad battled Gadhafi forces and came under a hail of artillery and rocket attacks, a rebel source said. CNN saw rebel fighters streaming back out of the city, beating what looked to be a hasty retreat. One said the barrage was too much for the opposition to withstand, and that Gadhafi loyalists had infiltrated Bin Jawad.

Rebel forces regrouped in the nearby city of Ras Lanuf, a key oil town that they said they seized on Sunday. They came under heavy fire on the western edge of the city, said the rebels, who responded in kind, firing back with whatever weapons were available.

...


To the east, Libyan forces continued to pound parts of the city of Misrata Tuesday, with tanks firing mortar shells and troops using heavy artillery in an effort to retake control of the city, a witness told CNN.

Coalition planes circled overhead but did not strike the tanks, he said.


http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/29/libya.war/

[pinboy3niner]

4. SYRIA: U.S. says Assad must make progress on reforms

Source: Reuters


U.S. says Assad must make progress on reforms


By Susan Cornwell

WASHINGTON | Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:17pm EDT


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States on Tuesday urged Syria to make more progress on political reforms but U.S. lawmakers did not appear keen to intervene militarily in another Middle Eastern country.

Syrian President Bashar al-Assad should meet the needs and aspirations of his citizens, the U.S. State Department's spokesman Mark Toner said. More than 60 people have been killed during protests for greater freedoms that erupted in Syria nearly two weeks ago.

"We believe President Assad is at a crossroads. He has claimed to be a reformer for over a decade but he has made no substantive progress on political reforms and we urge him to ... address the needs and the aspirations of the Syrian people," Toner told reporters.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/29/us-syria-usa-idUSTRE72S5FY20110329

[pinboy3niner]

5. New Libya contact group to meet in Qatar

Source: Al Jazeera

New Libya contact group to meet in Qatar


London meeting agrees move will help efforts to map out Libya's future, amid apparent split over arming rebels.

Last Modified: 29 Mar 2011 20:12


World powers meeting in London have agreed to set up a contact group to lead international efforts to map out Libya's future, with the first meeting to take place in Qatar, Britain has said.

"Participants of the conference agreed to establish the Libya Contact Group," said a statement issued by William Hague, the British foreign minister, who chaired the meeting of more than 40 countries plus the UN and NATO.

The group would provide "leadership and overall political direction to the international effort in close co-ordination with the UN, AU (African Union), Arab League, OIC (Organisation of the Islamic Conference) and EU (European Union) to support Libya", the statement said.

Hague said that "Qatar has agreed to convene the first meeting of the group as soon as possible".

After the first meeting in Doha, Qatar, the chairmanship will rotate between the countries of the region and beyond it, the statement said.


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/03/2011329172644996505.html

[Amonester]

7. Well, so long for the "Al-Qaeda will rule Libya" idiocy......

Not that I have anything against DUers who claim knowing they will.

It's just false.

[pinboy3niner]

9. But, but, but...Brother Colonel Leader said...

:rofl:

:evilgrin:

[joshcryer]

6. pinboy3niner, I GTG.

Don't feel good at all. I've no doubt the revolutionaries will succeed, but I sense revelry in their latest defeats, and those people who are doing that are just too hard to ignore. Need to get some sleep, sorry. :(

[pinboy3niner]

8. Go ahead and get some rest, Josh--I'll cover

If things are getting intense, it may be best to concentrate just on our little project here. Compiling and aggregating news and information here is a valuable service, and many turn here to keep up with the latest.

For now, get some sleep. We'll have coffe and doughnuts waitin' for ya... :)

:hi: :hug:

[joshcryer]

11. Thanks, don't feel too pressured, pinboy, you've been at it all day.

:hug:

[pinboy3niner]

10. "If Gaddafi were here, I would slap him in the face"--Eman al-Obeidi's mother

CNN's Reza Sayah went to do a new interview with the mother. CNN should be putting up more details at their website soon.

[pinboy3niner]

12. Misrata: "They are determined to capture the city. Today was tough for the rebels."

Anti-Gaddafi fighters in Misurata have come under attack, a spokesman named Mohamed tells Reuters by satellite phone:

Gaddafi's forces are launching intensive and vicious military campaigns against us in Misurata. They are determined to capture the city. Today was tough for the rebels.

A second told the agency:

The humanitarian situation is catastrophic. There is a shortage of food and medicine. The hospital is no longer able to deal with the situation ...

Gaddafi's forces went into houses in Zawabi, which is near Tripoli street, and killed four brothers and two of their neighbours. We are sure they have positioned snipers on the rooftops of these houses.

Some 124 civilians have been killed in the city of 300,000 in the past nine days, said the fighters.


12:27am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-30

[defendandprotect]

75. LIBYA HURRA -- !!

[joshcryer]

13. US and Britain may arm Libya rebels if Gaddafi clings to power

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/29/libya-rebels-armed-by-us-uk">US and Britain may arm Libya rebels if Gaddafi clings to power
The US and Britain have raised the prospect of arming Libya's rebels if air strikes fail to force Muammar Gaddafi from power.

At the end of a conference on Libya in London, Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, said for the first time that she believed arming rebel groups was legal under UN security council resolution 1973, passed two weeks ago, which also provided the legal justification for air strikes.

America's envoy to the UN, Susan Rice, said earlier the US had "not ruled out" channelling arms to the rebels.

The British foreign secretary, William Hague, agreed that the resolution made it legal "to give people aid in order to defend themselves in particular circumstances".

Don't think I can keep this up for months but we'll see.

[Hannah Bell]

14. "ragtag" = lol. just a bunch of guys -- with nato aircover.

[tabatha]

16. Yep, because one individual has helped

himself to all of Libyan wealth and land.

[Hannah Bell]

18. bull.

[tabatha]

24. from header

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/libya-wikileaks/8294913/LIBYA-POSTPONES-GENERAL-PEOPLES-CONGRESS-WALKS-BACK-FROM-WEALTH-DISTRIBUTION-AND-PRIVATIZATION-PLANS.html

[Hannah Bell]

28. That article doesn't say khaddafi owns all wealth & land. Furthermore,

the "wealth distribution & privatization plan" is about marketization & privatization of the libyan economy along neo-liberal lines.

[tabatha]

30. He does not own all the wealth

- but the bulk of the money goes into his pockets.

He treats the Libyan population as if he owns them. He decides whether they live or die.

[Hannah Bell]

36. so this is false: "because one individual has helped himself to all of Libyan wealth and land."

As for the rest, what the hell are you talking about?


The living standards of Libyans have improved significantly since the 1970s, ranking the country among the highest in Africa. Urbanization, developmental projects, and high oil revenues have enabled the Libyan government to elevate its people's living standards.

The social and economic status of women and children has particularly improved. Various subsidized or free services (health, education, housing, and basic foodstuffs) have ensured basic necessities.

The low percentage of people without access to safe water (3 percent), health services (0 percent) and sanitation (2 percent), and a relatively high life expectancy (70.2 years) in 1998 indicate the improved living standards. Adequate health care and subsidized foodstuffs have sharply reduced infant mortality, from 105 per 1,000 live births in 1970 to 20 per 1,000 live births in 1998.

The government also subsidizes education, which is compulsory and free between the ages of 6 and 15. The expansion of educational facilities has elevated the literacy rate (78.1 in 1998). There are universities in Tripoli, Benghazi, Marsa el-Brega, Misurata, Sebha, and Tobruq.

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Africa/Libya-POVERTY-AND-WEALTH.html


Read more: Libya Poverty and wealth, Information about Poverty and wealth in Libya http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:80jX4-NGJ4YJ:www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Africa/Libya-POVERTY-AND-WEALTH.html+libya+poverty&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com#ixzz1I2HOg300




Libya social indicators

Life expectancy at birth (women and men, years) 2005-2010 76.9/71.7

Infant mortality rate (per 1 000 live births) 2005-2010 18.0
(for the record, lower than that of our allies saudi arabia & egypt)

Fertility rate, total (live births per woman) 2005-2010 2.7

Contraceptive prevalence (ages 15-49, %) 2006-2009 45.2 1995.

Education: Government expenditure (% of GDP) 2005-2008 2.7

Education: Primary-secondary gross enrolment ratio (w/m per 100) 2005-2008 104.1/98.7

Education: Female third-level students (% of total) 2005-2008 51.4 UNESCO estimate.

Seats held by women in national parliaments (%) 2009 7.7

Labour force participation, adult female pop. (%) 2008 26.1

Labour force participation, adult male pop. (%) 2008 77.2

Telephone subscribers, total (per 100 inhabitants) 2008 93.1

www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/Country-Stats/Libya-statistics.htm


The main difference between Libya & the other middle eastern dictatorships is that Libya IS NOT FULLY INTEGRATED INTO THE CIRCUITS OF INTERNATIONAL CAPITAL. And even after signing on to the neo-liberal project in 2004 after decades of resistance, Khaddafi still tried to play an independent game.

That's Khaddafi's cardinal sin, & that's why the west is attacking him as vs. their tame kleptocrats in the middle east.

[tabatha]

41. The dictator's dough: Astonishing wealth of Gaddafi and his family revealed

The astonishing wealth of Libyan tyrant Muammar Gaddafi and his family has been laid bare as countries around the world begin freezing billions of dollars worth of their assets.

The U.S. alone has seized $30billion (£18.5bn) of their investments, while Canada has frozen $2.4bn (£1.5bn), Austria, $1.7bn (£1bn) and the UK, $1bn ($600m).

These assets appear to be just the tip of the iceberg, as no one is yet certain exactly what the family owns around the world.

But they include an enormous portfolio of properties in the West End theatre and shopping district of London - worth $455m (£280m) as well as $325m (£200m) in shares in Pearson, the owner of the Financial Times and Penguin books.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361919/Muammar-Gaddafi-familys-astonishing-wealth-revealed.html#ixzz1I2J2ky53

I have valued your posts before and do not want to argue with you, but he does in fact "own it all" because he decides what to do with the money - most of it goes to him. The little that others get pales into insignificance.

And as for your reasons for why the intervention has happened, I watched day after day after day, the Libyans asking for help. It hurts my brain to think that people could concoct all these other bizarre reasons. The only interest the outside world has shown him is to try to get him to change his murderous ways and for him and his country to have normal relations with the rest of the world.

This is all I am going to say to you on this matter - because these threads have been diligently constructed by genuine, sincere people, and I do not want them to become a slug fest.

[Hannah Bell]

43. i will only say: you are naive to believe whatever the foreign media says

about a leader they've decided to oust.

the fact is that libyans don't live in poverty & misery. as you can see from accounts & statistics gathered before this war.

[Iterate]

68. I apologize for missing this earlier.

"The main difference between Libya & the other middle eastern dictatorships is that Libya IS NOT FULLY INTEGRATED INTO THE CIRCUITS OF INTERNATIONAL CAPITAL. And even after signing on to the neo-liberal project in 2004 after decades of resistance, Khaddafi still tried to play an independent game.
That's Khaddafi's cardinal sin, & that's why the west is attacking him as vs. their tame kleptocrats in the middle east."

Just don't feel bad. You're not the only one who was conned by him.

You should know though, that this whole thing was set off, not by the west, who I think would have been happy enough to see this family business pass into the next generation, but by Gaddafi himself who hit these people hard, real, real, hard:

Events of 2 years ago sparked current uprising in Libya
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/03/11/events-2-years-ago-sparked-current-uprising-libya

...

The families' protests were part of an unprecedented campaign to seek the truth about a 1996 massacre of more than 1,200 prisoners at the Abu Salim prison in Tripoli, the Libyan capital. Notorious for torture, Abu Salim is run by the Internal Security Agency and houses many of Libya's political prisoners. The massacre followed a prison riot over poor conditions.
...

""Every time I went to a demonstration I was preparing myself for arrest," one family member said. "But I have nothing to fear. Four of my brothers were imprisoned in Abu Salim and two of them died there. I am not afraid anymore."

Some family members were harassed and interrogated. In March 2009, four members were arrested and detained for several days, including Fathi Terbil, a young lawyer who represented the families and whose arrest on Feb.15 set off the current protests. But the families kept going, and on the 13th anniversary of the massacre, more than 200 women, men and children marched through Benghazi.

The Libyan government tolerated the families' actions since it was trying to rehabilitate its international image and end its longstanding diplomatic isolation. The families persisted, filing complaints with the United Nations, posting videos of their demonstrations on Libyan websites abroad, and issuing their demands. They won remarkable concessions: Libya's top leadership acknowledged the massacre, and officials notified over 900 families that their loved ones had died, issuing death certificates and offering about $100,000 in compensation for each prisoner killed. But many of the families refused the money, believing that they had a right to know the full details of the prisoners' deaths and that those responsible should be held accountable.

...

If he hadn't hit them so hard, none of this current chain of events might have happened. But he did, or more precisely, his son did. They protested one too many times.
That also helps explain why this isn't a revolution about economic reforms. It's about the things money couldn't buy.

[Hannah Bell]

69. bull. the current war & the west's support for it has nothing to do with

that. the french, british & american governments don't care if dictators kill people. as is amply demonstrated by history.

[Iterate]

70. We'll leave it at that then

4:15 am and I'm done in. Have a good evening.

[Iterate]

72. Ug. Of course they don't care, unless it gets embarrassing

which it did. he was their guy. now I really am out. really.

[Hannah Bell]

74. he was "their guy"? wtf are you talking about? mubarak was "their guy". khaddafi was not.

khaddafi was a loose cannon playing his own game.

[tabatha]

26. It is totally beyong my comprehension

beyond my understanding of humanity, that people can support Gaddafi.

[Davis_X_Machina]

37. If you mean on here.... It's a small price to pay...

...to stick a finger in the eye of imperialism.

And as icing on the cake, we get to save money.

Especially when someone I don't know and don't actually care about pays it.

In Libya, it's a complex brew of tribalism, religion, nationalism, energy politics, and the creative use of foreign bogeymen. Just like being a Republican here, in other words.

[The Magistrate]

17. As You Well Know, Ma'am

These are irregular partisan bodies, without discipline or training, unable to co-ordinate actions with the air element even if that was desired by intervening powers.

[Hannah Bell]

19. i know no such thing.

[The Magistrate]

22. If You Say So, Ma'am

But it does you no credit to make the claim....

[joshcryer]

20. Inform them of their "NATO aircover" outside of Sirte, Bin Jawad, and Ras Lanuf today.

They'd be happy to know it was there.

[LanternWaste]

48. Much like the Soviet partisan in the second world war

Much like the Soviet partisan in the second world war. Quite rag-tag, quite poor, quite hungry... quite effective with the support necc. for any tactical success.

[The Magistrate]

56. Better Disciplined, Those Fellows Were, Sir

It makes a difference. Without intending disparragement, what we have here is an armed crowd, more or less armed, anyway, and the business really does take more.

[pinboy3niner]

15. Brief summary of Tuesday's developments from BBC:

•An international conference on Libya, meeting in London, agrees that Col Gaddafi has lost all legitimacy. Member states agree to set up a contact group to help decide Libya's political future

•Pro-Gaddafi forces have launched a new offensive in eastern Libya, driving rebels from the recently captured towns of Bin Jawad and Ras Lanuf

•There are reports of further shelling in the western city of Misrata, which government forces are battling to regain from the rebels

•In Syria, President Bashar Assad has accepted the resignation of the cabinet as he prepares his response to a wave of violent political unrest


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/9440425.stm

[Davis_X_Machina]

25. That's all very sad...

...but it brings the end of this adventure closer.

Roll on, Qadaffi!

A great day for peace, anti-imperialism and fiscal prudence!

Kinda sucks to be Libyan, but hey, that's life, right?

[pinboy3niner]

31. There's peace, and then there's "peace"

Gaddafi's record--documented by groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International--is one of brutal, merciless revenge upon his opponents...

Gaddafi prevailing would mean an end to the bloodshed of military combat...and the beginning of a bloody Gaddafi purge of thousands of people who supported the opposition.

That's not a "peace" to celebrate.

[Davis_X_Machina]

33. This is DU...

...I'm not interested in Libyans.

I'm interested in scoring points with a small, and very non-representative, sample of Democrats. The best way to do this is to carefully track other posters, to determine the correct DU line, regardless of whether it makes sense or not, and damn the consequences.

This requires me to see everything through the prism of 2003, because this board's golden age was the run-up to Iraq.

And to never, never, do nuance.

I'm not proud of it -- it's just how I roll.

[The Magistrate]

35. Cold But Fair, Sir....

[pinboy3niner]

38. Should've turned on my sarcasm detector :)

Have an aversion to those smiley thingies, do we? :rofl:

:hi:

[CJvR]

45. There is peace...

...and there is Roman peace.
Solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

[Davis_X_Machina]

46. It's Libya..

...they already have the solitudō.

And now they're going to get the pax -- of the grave.

My anti-imperialst cred will go through the roof though. No blood for oil!

[pinboy3niner]

21. Libya troops push rebels; powers want Gaddafi out

Source: Reuters


Libya troops push rebels; powers want Gaddafi out

By Maria Golovnina and Michael Georgy

TRIPOLI | Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:24pm EDT


TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi's better armed and organized troops reversed the westward charge of rebels and world powers meeting in London piled pressure on the Libyan leader to end his 41-year rule.

British Prime Minister David Cameron, opening the London conference, accused Libyan troops of "murderous attacks," while U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said military strikes would press on until Gaddafi loyalists ceased violence.

"All of us must continue to increase the pressure on and deepen the isolation of the Gaddafi regime through other means as well," Clinton said after the London talks finished.

...


It took five days of allied air strikes to pulverize Libyan government tanks around the town of Ajdabiyah before Gaddafi's troops fled and the rebels rushed in and began their 300-km (200-mile), two-day dash across the desert to within 80 km (50 miles) of the Gaddafi loyalist stronghold of Sirte.

But the rebel pick-up truck cavalcade was first ambushed, then outflanked by Gaddafi troops. The advance stopped and government forces retook the small town of Nawfaliyah, 120 km (75 miles) east of Sirte.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/29/us-libya-idUSTRE7270JP20110329

[pinboy3niner]

23. Obama to NBC News: Gaddafi has been "greatly weakened" by int'l. military campaign.

Obama to NBC News: Gaddafi has been "greatly weakened" by international military campaign.

Would he give extra weaponry to the armed anti-Gaddafi fighters?

I'm not ruling it in, I'm not ruling it out ... We are going to be looking at all options to provide support to the Libyan people so that we can transition towards a more peaceful and more stable Libya.

12:36am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-30

[pinboy3niner]

27. Malians cheer Gaddafi as they host Libya football team

Source: BBC

29 March 2011 Last updated at 05:03 ET


Malians cheer Gaddafi as they host Libya football team


Thousands of Malians turned out to cheer on Libya's football team in an African Cup of Nations qualifier in Mali's capital.

The match was held in Bamako because of security concerns in Libya.

About 20,000 Malians turned out to watch the game, many carrying posters protesting against the Western-led military intervention in Libya.

"We were very touched by the Malian crowd," captain Tariq Ibrahim al-Tayib told the BBC after beating Comoros 3-0.

Bamako-based journalist Martin Vogl says Mali's government has a close relationship with Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and he enjoys a lot of support in the country.

After each goal at the game on Monday evening, the crowd shouted: "Gaddafi! Gaddafi," he said.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12891407

[tabatha]

32. I bet they were paid big bucks to do that.

[David__77]

Picture

A woman carries a placard in support of Col. Gaddafi in Kampala yesterday. Police broke up a pro-Gaddafi demonstration organised by the Pan African Movement in Kampala. PHOTOS BY STEPHEN WANDERA.

[tabatha]

47. Gaddafi's money extends all the way from

North Africa right down to Cape Town.

[David__77]

54. Probably a small Pan-Africanist group.

They are pretty marginal in most of Africa, but they are actually supportive of Gaddafi. Even here in Sacramento, there is the Pan Africanist AAPRP that Stokely Carmichael used to lead - it's supportive of Gaddafi, but they're not getting any money. All sorts of groups can muster demonstrators for whatever reason. It doesn't mean it's anything more than a marginal phenomenon, but it also doesn't mean people are getting paid. I once demonstrated against the Peruvian president (really against US intervention in Peru), and was accused by a Peruvian newswoman of being paid by FARC lol...

[tabatha]

50. And as a result, Africa seems powerless to stop him.

“If Africa’s leaders held their peers to account there would be no need for the people of Libya to suffer human rights violations,” said founder of the Desmond Tutu Peace Centre, Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu. “And there would be no need for United Nations sanctioned military interventions in Libya.

“Instead, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi has for more than 40 years honed his skills in the art of resource management to win friends and influence people. And as a result, Africa seems powerless to stop him.

“The scenes of brutality being meted out with sophisticated weaponry by Libyan security forces against their own civilian population make God weep. With every blow they strike, each human rights abuse they perpetrate, they bring shame on Africa,” Archbishop Tutu said.

http://allafrica.com/stories/201103210790.html

[formercia]

29. The 'Rebels' should not bunch-up like that, especially on the crest of a hill

It makes a very tempting target.

[pinboy3niner]

34. AJ's Anita McNaught in Tripoli: It feels as though "the walls are closing in" in the capital city

From AJE Libya Live Blog - March 30:

1:12am

Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught, reporting from Tripoli, tells us it feels as though "the walls are closing in" in the capital city. She tells us:

There is tremendous anxiety here, people don't know what's coming. But there is unshakeable faith among some here, who feel Gaddafi's rule will never end, that he is the right man to run the country and life without him is unthinkable.

Then there's a quieter voice, not often heard, that says tripoli and Libya would be better without him. But that's not one that you hear in public here.

1:15am

More from Anita in Tripoli:

When we arrived a month ago, what was obvious was that it was a city that was not functioning properly any more. It was empty, it was shut up. And that is because it was a city run on foreign labour. And a huge amount of that skilled foreign labour had left by the time we got here - and that's been exacerbated since.

It's just not possible to keep everything running without that foreign labour they had. So we're seeing big queues at petrol stations, those are getting more tense with every passing day ... and supplies are running out. We're seeing bread queues because bakers have left the country; fish isn't available as it used to be as the fishermen aren't fishing any more.

All these sorts of things are closing in on Libyans here. No-one's starving, but life hasn't been 'normal' for more than a month here.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-30

[MedleyMisty]

39. They are letting them die

KhaoulaBe

‎@UN @NATO r u on spring break? 40+ tanks on way to massacre civilians in #Zintan. We need help NOW. Save #Libya from #gaddaficrimes



I am at a breaking point here. Everyone who is participating in the slander of the Libyan people is complicit with this massacre. Everyone who said it wasn't worth it to save them. Everyone who said we don't know who we're helping. Everyone who put fucking politics and personal ideals over people's lives. I hope you can sleep at night.

I saw a tweet from someone about Syria, saying that dictators should figure out that once they kill people, the people won't be satisfied with anything less than the removal of the regime.

They are killing a country. I hope to hell the world stands up, that the world says we are all Libya, that the world demands the removal of the terrorist corporate dictator fucking war pig regime. If not - then the human species deserves what it gets.

[Hannah Bell]

40. who is that tweet from? do you even know?

[tabatha]

42. I know exactly how you feel.

I am going to make it a policy from now on not to respond to the negativity. These were decent threads until recently.

[Hannah Bell]

44. "decent" = universal cheerleading.

in fact, you have no idea whatsoever who is behind those tweets. there is no identification of the source; i checked.

[David__77]

49. There is a problem in information validation.

I have seen quiet a chronology of claims spread via tweet. Indeed, sometimes they put Libyan state TV to shame. Not all, by any means. But it's good to take these things with a grain of salt. The people in the US have been repeatedly deceived in the past by people behind the scenes. We must avoid that and be very cautious in foreign policy.

[Alamuti Lotus]

111. Yes, it's too bad that opinions besides your own are appearing

The irony there is ridiculously unfortunate.

[tabatha]

126. You may have missed the fact that these threads

are mostly to do with reporting the news --- from both sides.

And then suddenly there were a bunch of posts being extremely negative.

So, it was not opinions as much as negativity - which I indicated in my post.

[defendandprotect]

78. Libya Hurra -- !! -- Think many of us are wondering ....

if that is what could be going on --

Plus, think many who didn't follow the original days of the uprising in Egypt and

Libya need some exposure to it to understand.

GOP argument against debt is immense nonsense whether we're talking about safety nets

vs Pentagon -- or whether everyone on DU knows exactly what the Pentagon expenses have

been in Libya! That's just money -- not the value of human life.

How much have we blown on killing people in Afghanistan and Iraq -- killing people based

on rw lies about 9/11 -- and hidden interests in controlling OIL?

Now they object when lives are to be saved -- lives of people who have suffered for 40

years under this dictatorship. Capitalism has taught us well -- know the price of

everything -- the value of nothing!!

[pinboy3niner]

51. Pentagon: $550 million spent on military action in Libya

The US military has so far spent US$550million on military action in Libya, says the Pentagon.

Costs to the US taxpayer are expected to stabilise at US$40million a month once NATO takes control of operations, military officials added.

Some 60 per cent of the money was spent on missiles and bombs, while the rest was for bringing troops to the region and operating costs.

1:44am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-30

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. "Freedom Fighters"? Have the Mujahadeen and Contras come back?

I seem to recall helping those "freedom fighters" in their civil wars.

[bobbolink]

53. The truth dawns.

I listened to Mario Solis-Marich today, and he surprised me. He said that he suddenly thought of it from the other direction: What if this country had NOT taken action, and there was a massacre, and "twenty thousand people died. How would I feel about that?" He realized that he would be shocked and remorseful. He said he was getting hate emails from having changed his mind (which I can believe, given the ugliness we have seen on DU.)

I called and when I got on, I said maybe I could dilute some of the hate emails (although, what I see of these media people is that any disagreement is seen as "attack" and "hate".

I told him about the video of the convoy, and that G was set to wipe Benghazi off the map.. a city of 1 million, not 20 thousand. I said I thought that would have haunted him for a long time to come, and he thanked me for it.

I wanted to add that we all need to be more familiar with the Responsibility resolution, and the writings of the Interim Council, but he went to break, so I didn't get a chance.

At least, that is one media person who had a change of heart, and it might affect many of his listeners.

:grouphug:

[tabatha]

55. Thank you!

:hi:

[bobbolink]

58. I'm going to send him the links for the Resolution and the writings of the Interim.

With the suggestion that he have them on his blog. I'm glad to see that this thread has them in the OP, with handy links! :)

I am doing what I can to help this effort, and it has cost me the support of many who were willing in the past to take action on poverty.

In return, I hope that people here will help me with the project I am trying to do.

Thanks.

:grouphug:

[pinboy3niner]

57. The Guardian's summary of developments:

Due to technical problems we were unable to update this live blog, and it is now being closed. Here's a summary of the latest developments involving Libya:

• The latest reports suggest that pro-Gaddafi forces are fighting back and may have recaptured the town of Bin Jawad, with the lightly-armed rebels retreating back towards the towns of Brega and Ras Lanuf. In the west, the city of Misrata remains under heavy siege from Gaddafi's forces

• Barack Obama said in an interview that members of the Gaddafi regime were starting to recognise that "their days are numbered". He also described the opposition leaders that have met with US officials as "professionals, lawyers, doctors – people who appear to be credible"

• US, French and British leaders, along with Qatar, appear willing to supply arms to the rebel forces if the coalition's air strikes fail to dislodge Gaddafi's regime

• Admiral James Stavridis, Nato's supreme allied commander for Europe, told a US Senate hearing that the latest intelligence showed a "flicker" of al-Qaida or Hezbollah activity within the Libyan opposition but said there was not enough detail to be sure

• The coalition launched a further 22 Tomahawk missiles and flew 115 air strike sorties within the last 24 hours, the Pentagon revealed

• The mother of Iman al-Obeidi told CNN that she has not spoken to her daughter since Sunday, the day after she spoke out to journalists in Tripoli, and does not know where she is being held


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/29/libya-crisis-london-conference-live-updates

[pinboy3niner]

59. US may arm rebel fighters, "and just do it quietly"--Nancy Soderberg, former US Amb. to UN

Nancy Soderberg, former US ambassador to the UN, tells Al Jazeera that the United States may arm anti-Gaddafi fighters, "and just do it quietly" - without a separate UN Security Council resolution, as French officials had suggested was necessary. We'll bring you that interview in full soon.

2:15am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-30

[The Magistrate]

60. It Will Have To Be Done, Sir

"Sincere desire for salvation necessarily entails desire to do whatever is necessary for salvation."

[pinboy3niner]

62. The Soderberg interview video:

Nancy Soderberg, a former US ambassador to the United Nations, says the United States may consider providing "defensive weapons" to anti-Gaddafi fighters in Libya - but doing so "quietly".

She tells Al Jazeera that officials will always seek to further their strategic interests, but that the US did not create the armed rebel groups, and doesn't entirely know who they are.


Watch at AJE...
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-30

...or on YouTube:

Nancy Soderberg speaks to Al Jazeera (4:29)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j8cnUwrOck&feature=player_embedded

[David__77]

66. Hopefully they do not.

The US needn't take that action of further intervention.

[pinboy3niner]

61. "And we wouldn't know about it except for Twitter"

CNN's Nic Robertson, in a live feed report from Tripoli moments ago, reporting news of a new Gaddafi offensive against the town of Zintan.

Moreover, he said, the Arab Spring is happening only because "people have lost their fear...because people came together through social media."

[pinboy3niner]

63. GOP Split On Action In Libya

Source: The Wall Street Journal

MARCH 29, 2011, 8:58 P.M. ET.


GOP Split On Action In Libya


By NAFTALI BENDAVID


WASHINGTON—Republicans are grappling with internal divisions on their approach to the U.S. intervention in Libya, making it harder to present a unified front as Congress ratchets up its scrutiny of President Barack Obama's decision to act there.

While some Republicans chastise Mr. Obama for not intervening earlier and more forcefully, others are demanding the president consult Congress or pull out of the operation altogether.

At the same time, a faction powered in part by tea-party activists and strengthened by the last election is complaining about the cost as well as the policy of foreign interventions. Rep. Raul Labrador, a Republican freshman from Idaho, argues the U.S. should pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan as well as Libya.

"We're already engaged in two wars in the Middle East, and I think we need to get out of both of them," Mr. Labrador said. "Now we're engaging in a third one, and we don't have the resources."


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703461504576231090786495316.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[tabatha]

64. Rachel had a good segment about how Rand Paul

completely flipped tonight.

[pinboy3niner]

65. Thanks--I'll try to catch the repeat or the vid when it posts at MSNBC nt

[defendandprotect]

81. Which way?

[tabatha]

85. Voted for everything Obama has laid out.

Now is against.

[defendandprotect]

87. That sounds more anti-Obama than anti-Libya ????

... but anything's possible, I guess!!??

[tabatha]

94. There was a vote on Libya early March.

Paul voted for a no-fly zone and for Gaddafi to step down.

[pinboy3niner]

67. Amnesty International briefing report about those forcibly "disappeared" in Libya:

Amnesty International has released a briefing report about those forcibly "disappeared" in Libya. You can read it by clicking here.

These detainees and disappeared persons are at grave risk of torture and other serious human rights abuses. The true number is impossible to calculate...

3:26am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-30

[Turborama]

84. Thanks

For that and all the other news/articles you're posting.

:hi:

[pinboy3niner]

89. Same to you, brother

You've been doing a hell of a job in LBN. But then, what else is new? :fistbump:

[Maru Kitteh]

71. I'm happy to hear the US will be giving support to the Libyan people. n/t

[pinboy3niner]

73. Human Rights Watch demands Libya imediately release Eman al-Obeidi

Libya: Immediately Release Woman Who Alleged Rape


Family and Journalists Should Confirm Eman al-‘Obeidy is Free and Safe


March 28, 2011


(New York) - The Libyan government should immediately release Eman al-‘Obeidy, the Libyan woman who accused government forces of raping her last week in Tripoli, and allow her family and international media to confirm independently that she is free and safe, Human Rights Watch today.

The government should promptly investigate the charges of rape that al-‘Obeidy raised and hold accountable anyone who violated the law, Human Rights Watch said.

The Libyan government said it had released al-‘Obeidy, but her parents denied the claim. International media have not seen her since security forces forcefully removed her from a Tripoli hotel on March 26, 2011.

"The last time al-‘Obeidy was seen, she was bruised and recounting a horrible account of rape, then was snatched from journalists by security forces," said Nadya Khalife, women's rights researcher for the Middle East and North Africa at Human Rights Watch. "The government needs to produce her, free her, find out what happened, and prosecute anyone who violated the law."

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/03/28/libya-immediately-release-woman-who-alleged-rape

More Human Rights Watch reporting on Libya:
http://www.hrw.org/en/middle-eastn-africa/libya

[kenny blankenship]

77. Those Imperialist Lackeys!

Brother Leader will know what to do about them. We are awaiting instructions and a "Lockerbie Kit."

[defendandprotect]

82. Libya Hurra -- !!

Gaddafi seems destined to lock up every journalist in Libya, as well!!

[pinboy3niner]

76. Malta increasingly concerned: Nearly 300 refugees fleeing unrest arrived by boat from Libya

The Mediterranean island of Malta is growing increasingly concerned about migrants fleeing unrest in North Africa, as nearly 300 arrived by boat from Libya, local media reports. Maltese Foreign Minister Tonio Borg says the international community must not ignore illegal immigration caused by the conflict.

2240:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/9440425.stm

[pinboy3niner]

79. Obama’s Libya Sequel Means Protecting U.S. First: Jane Harman

Obama’s Libya Sequel Means Protecting U.S. First: Jane Harman

March 29, 2011, 9:03 PM EDT

By Jane Harman



March 30 (Bloomberg) -- On Monday night, President Barack Obama right-sized the mission in Libya. His speech explained the limits of our role and our interests in Libya, though the extent of our commitment to the new NATO command is still evolving.

Perhaps the most important part of the speech -- at least to me -- was the effort to reconcile Obama’s view that Muammar Qaddafi must leave office with a mission limited to protecting the Libyan people.

The clarification was important. Essentially, our president said that regime change needs to be a local call. Outside interventions should protect populations engaged in peaceful protest from wholesale slaughter and, hopefully, set the circumstances where people can determine their own leadership. He cited Iraq, which the U.S. invaded in 2003, as the wrong approach.

Of course the ghosts of Rwanda and Bosnia were in that National Defense University auditorium, where Obama delivered his prime-time speech. In one case, the world stood by as tens of thousands perished. In the other, a no-fly zone didn’t prevent the humanitarian catastrophe in Srebrenica. Only arming the Bosnians and Croats and brokering a cold peace at Dayton, Ohio, ended the killing.


(Jane Harman, formerly a U.S. representative from California, is president and chief executive officer of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. The opinions expressed are her own.)


http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-03-29/obama-s-libya-sequel-means-protecting-u-s-first-jane-harman.html

[tabatha]

80. How does a landmine tell the difference between the citizens and Al Qaeda

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/03/30/libya-government-use-landmines-confirmed

It does not. Gaddafi is "landmining" his own people.

March 30, 2011
Metal cased antitank mines found in Ajdabiya on March 28, 2011.
© 2011 Human Rights Watch

(Benghazi) - Muammar Gaddafi's forces have laid both antipersonnel and antivehicle mines during the current conflict with armed opposition groups, Human Rights Watch confirmed today.

"Libya should immediately stop using antipersonnel mines, which most of the world banned years ago," said Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director at Human Rights Watch. "Gaddafi's forces should ensure that mines of every type that already have been laid are cleared as soon as possible to avoid civilian casualties."

The mines - two dozen antivehicle mines and roughly three dozen antipersonnel mines - were found on the eastern outskirts of Ajdabiya, a town of 100,000 residents that government forces held from March 17 until March 27, 2011.

Abdal Minam al-Shanti, electricity director for Eastern Libya, told Human Rights Watch that his employees discovered the mines around 11 a.m. on March 28, when their truck ran over and detonated two antipersonnel mines laid underneath power pylons about one kilometer from town. The mines destroyed one front tire and one back tire of the truck, but no one was wounded or killed, al-Shanti said.

[David__77]

92. You would oppose using landmines to defend Benghazi?

If I was a rebel commander and Gaddafi's forces were nearing the city, I would definitely advocate using anti-personnel mines to help ward off an attack. It may be banned by convention, but they do work from a military perspective. This conflict will get dirtier for sure, and not just on one side. If one side refuses to get "dirty," it runs the risk of defeat.

[tabatha]

97. Land mines should never be used under any circumstances.

[David__77]

98. I am glad that many believe this.

If everyone were Machiavellian, the world would be a terrible place.

[tabatha]

100. I don't know much about weaponery

but those things look old. The Russians supplied Gaddafi with a lot of armaments.

[David__77]

101. Probably from the 70s.

There's enough to last decades globally with no new production. People are still dying in Vietnam from US bombs, Cambodia from Khmer Rouge bombs, on and on...

[tabatha]

102. Crack SAS troops hunt Gaddafi weapons inside Libya

Hundreds of British SAS soldiers have been operating with rebel groups inside Libya for three weeks, the Sunday Mirror can reveal today.

Two special forces units, nicknamed “Smash” teams for their destructive ability, are hunting Colonel Gaddafi’s long-range surface-to-air missile ­systems, which could launch attacks on jets or commercial airliners.

The crack troops have been racing against time to pinpoint the Libyan Army’s most potent strategic weapon, the Russian-made SAM 5 missile systems. Despite their age, the systems have a range of more than 200 miles and the capability to hit targets across the Mediterranean.

The two SAS units, joined by ­signallers, engineers and medics, are simultaneously establishing positions on the ground in case any Western jets are downed during an air attack.

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/03/20/crack-sas-troops-hunt-gaddafi-weapons-inside-libya-115875-23002207/#ixzz1I3ilZ3jO

[pinboy3niner]

83. Obama defends Libya policy during hectic New York day

Source: Reuters

(Clinton, Obama at US Mission to UN REUTERS/Jim Young




Obama defends Libya policy during hectic New York day

Mar 29, 2011 22:03 EDT


President Barack Obama followed up his speech to the nation defending his Libya policy on Monday night with a whirlwind visit to New York City. He explained the policy in three network news interviews (ABC, NBC, CBS) — at the city’s famed Museum of Natural History.

...


There his Libya strategy was applauded by a roomful of diplomats and endorsed by a Democratic predecessor, ex-President Bill Clinton, the husband of his secretary of state.

...


Bill Clinton got big applause at the dedication of the new U.S. Mission to the UN when he said Brown, who was his commerce secretary and died in a plane crash while traveling to the Balkans, would have approved of the action in Libya.

“He would be very proud that Barack Obama became president of the United States, and very proud of you, Mr. President, for what you are doing in Libya, with the international community.”

...


“What we’ve learned from bitter experience — from the wars that were not prevented, the innocent lives that were not saved — is that all that’s necessary for evil to triumph is that good people and responsible nations stand by and do nothing,” Obama said in his remarks. “There are times — as when President Clinton showed extraordinary leadership in the Balkans, and moments such as now in the situation in Libya — where our conscience and our common interests compel us to act.”


http://blogs.reuters.com/frontrow/2011/03/29/obama-defends-libya-policy-during-hectic-new-york-day/

[pinboy3niner]

86. CNN reports on Eman al-Obeidi by Nic Robertson, Reza Sayah (video):

CNN has been staying on top of this story. Two of today's reports (click on story title in CNN video menu):



Rape suspects accuse woman of slander 2:26
http://us.cnn.com/video/



Mother of alleged rape victim 'angry' 3:32
http://us.cnn.com/video/

[defendandprotect]

88. Libyan Civillians in Ajdabiya, risk their lives to try to find landminds

Tripolitanian - Libyan Civillians in Ajdabiya, risk their lives to try to find landminds planted by G forces,and remove them! #libya http://bit.ly/dXVY3P




The gift that keeps giving!! Against all reason, Princess Diana's campaign couldn't be allowed

to succeed!!

[kenny blankenship]

91. Landmines against a population center. How could ANYONE not see that Gaddafy is right for Libya?

[pinboy3niner]

93. He's a regular prince!

He prefers being called "King of All Africa." But he's not a megalomaniac. That's just a smear by the CIA, criminal gangs and Osama Bin Laden--who turns Libyans into terrorists by spiking their Nescafe with hallucinogenics. Yeah, that's the ticket!

[pinboy3niner]

90. As many as 25,000 people have fled the violence in Ajdabiya, the UN says

As many as 25,000 people have fled the violence in Ajdabiya, the United Nations said in a situation report on Libya released on Tuesday.

Since the conflict began, at least 376,485 people have left the country for Egypt, Tunisia, Niger, Algeria, Chad and Sudan.

5:27am
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-30

[MedleyMisty]

95. You want to know what the difference is?

I had a thought.

When people ask why we are intervening here and not in other countries, I am going to tell them that it's because Libya's revolution is the most complete revolution.

I am not as informed as I should be on Tunisia, but I know that with Egypt the West is very sure that it can influence the direction of the government. The military is in control now, and it has close ties with the US military. And on the Egyptian blogs, a few people are saying that the presidential candidate with the most Western backing is likely to win. So yeah - the Egyptian revolution left a lot of the old guard in power. The West can make deals with it, can provide support to the counterrevolutionary forces, etc.

But when Gaddafi used so much force against the Libyans that they took up arms, any idea of Western influence exploded. The only outcome of the Libyan revolution, if the revolutionaries won, would have been the complete dismantling of the current state structure and the transfer of power to the interim council, which as most of us who post in this thread know is really awesome and derives its power from the Libyans.

I always thought that the intervention was the right thing to do, but that there were several motives at play. I still think that. And I think that's part of why the response is so horrible - struggles between all the forces in the coalition. I think that there are people who really do want to do the right thing and help the Libyans win and then deal with their self-chosen government legitimately. And there are other people who want, as always, to impose their own government and take control of the country. From Twitter chatter, it seems like Turkey is one of the major players on that side. As for the US - I think our administration is internally split on that, which I'm sure doesn't help things.

I think that the citizens of all the countries involved have a moral obligation to show solidarity with the Libyan people and to try their best to influence their government towards doing the right thing - which means taking the side of the Libyans and arming them (which I think is only fair after taking Gaddafi's side and arming him with the weapons he's using against the Libyans, sick war pig fucks) and doing all they can to provide aid and to help the Libyans win.

Remember - a lot of these politicians have no spine to speak of and blow the way of public opinion. Therefore, turning on the Libyan people and believing in Gaddafi's propaganda about them or whining about the cost or being all zomg my personal ideals over reality and human life is morally wrong and contributes to the mishandling of the intervention.

I cannot stress enough that we need to show solidarity with all freedom fighters everywhere, all democracy movements around the world. Because another thing I can tell, from Twitter chatter and other sources - this is a global revolution. We are all in this together. If we fall for the divide and conquer trick here, if we turn our backs on the Libyans and let them be massacred because they want to govern themselves and won't give in to the war pigs and corporations, then we might as well give up on the idea of ever being free ourselves.

If the species is going to move forward, if we are going to shake off the psychopaths that are in power now and are killing us and the planet, we have to break down all the barriers. We have to see that we are all one, that an injury to any human anywhere is an injury to all humans.

You can't just isolate yourself from humanity and say we should focus on everything at home and fuck the freedom fighters in other countries. Not if you want to win this war.

[Turborama]

107. I thoroughly agree

I really like reading your thoughts on this and have added you to my buddy list in the hope that you'll be adding them to your journal.

BTW have you seen this reply I wrote to you yet?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=765366&mesg_id=766270

The 1st documentary is in 2 parts and gives a really good background to what happened in Tunisia.

When the Tunisia thing was going on I added several articles about it but they went by largely unnoticed.

Anonymous Has Joined Tunisian Activists To Help Fight The Government's Stifling Of Online Dissent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=131462

Interactive Map Of Countrywide Riots In Tunisia That Have Been Ignored By International Media
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=131780

Tunisia Unrest A Wake-up Call For The Region: "Every Arab Leader Is Watching Tunisia In Fear"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=201863

As Riots Continue, Tunisian Bloggers & Rapper Arrested
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=132227

Tunisia's Revolution Was Twitterized
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=201793

Tunisia: How the US got it wrong (Some interesting pre-Egypt & pre-Libya comments in there)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=212065#212065

[Waiting For Everyman]

115. I agree with your view of it MM, it's global

and we are all Libyans.

Instead of a personified dicator we have a seemingly mechanized "system", for plausible deniability so that no one is responsible for the very same acts that it does. Different style, same game. The differences are the illusion... the curtain in front of Oz's control booth.

The problem all over the world is the elites at the top, who have made themselves a nifty little siphon into all of our pockets. Most of the world could have a pretty good life without that small group of domineering goons. "Enough", as Ghonim said.

People ARE waking up. All over the world, even China, even Iran. The facade is cracking.

These events are so genuine and spontaneous. Anyone who can't see that is just not paying attention.

[pinboy3niner]

118. Dear MM...

Usually I'm so busy hustling for news and info to post that I can't reply to posters in the threads. But I always appreciate your very thoughtful posts.

Thanks for being here. You contribute a lot, and I hope you know that we value your contributions--even if we don't have time to tell you that.

Most of all, we love your heart. :hug:.

[defendandprotect]

124. Agree --

I trust the Libyans, but not necessarily my own country --

too often what is right is distorted by elite interests --

Fingers-crossed in this one -- !!

:)

[Turborama]

96. Human Rights Watch: Libyan Government's Use of Landmines Confirmed (Pic Heavy)

Posted in LBN: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4793062

Video posted in the videos forum: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x568042

[pinboy3niner]

99. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 7:15 AM WEDNESDAY, MARCH 30

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[tabatha]

103. Libya: SAS ready to seize Col Gaddafi's stores of mustard gas

American sources have disclosed that the SAS is likely to be called upon to secure up to 10 tons of mustard gas and sarin that is believed to be stockpiled at three separate locations.

Special forces are thought to have been in Libya for about 10 days and have already played a leading role in rescuing hundreds of oil workers.

On Tuesday, David Cameron continued to increase the pressure on Gaddafi by warning that Britain should negotiate with opposition groups. He said that, if the Libyan regime started “murdering” its people with aircraft, plans should be in place to “do something to stop that”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8355955/Libya-SAS-ready-to-seize-Col-Gaddafis-stores-of-mustard-gas.html

[tabatha]

104. Contact group formed to coordinate international effort on Libya

At a conference of dozens of foreign ministers in London, a contact group has been set up to coordinate international effort in Libya. Participants are keen not to seem too involved in shaping Libya's future.

Delegates from dozens of countries met in London Tuesday to discuss ongoing military action in Libya and the next steps for the North African nation. At the end of the meeting, it was announced that a contact group would be set up to coordinate international action on Libya.

In a statement, British Foreign Secretary William Hague said the contact group would "provide leadership and overall political direction to the international effort in close coordination with the to support Libya."

http://www.deutsche-welle.com/dw/article/0,,14952509,00.html

[pinboy3niner]

105. A Libyan in Malta becomes a 'smuggler' to dodge patrol boats, deliver humanitarian aid to Misrata

Source: Australian Broadcasting Corporation


From the ABC program, "World News Today":


The full story...

Smuggler tries to relieve beseiged Misurata


ELEANOR HALL: While international leaders meet in the UK to discuss the international operation in Libya, Colonel Gaddafi's forces are stepping up their attack on Misurata, Libya's third largest city of more than 300,000 people.

An opposition spokesman is warning that the massacre that international strikes helped to avert in Benghazi may well be carried out in Misurata.

The town has been holding off a government assault for more than a month and one resident told us last week that water and electricity supplies were erratic and that there was only enough food left for 5 to 7 days.

But one Libyan living in Malta is managing to get some basic supplies into the besieged city.

Tarek Tarhouny told me that he is coordinating a humanitarian relief operation that involves smuggling supplies in by sea.

ELEANOR HALL: Tarek Tarhouny, how are you getting supplies into Misurata which has been besieged for weeks by government forces?

TAREK TARHOUNY: We just thought of trying to get these supplies to Misurata.

The only way possible at the moment is by sea as you know and we managed to charter a small vessel.

At the moment we're just carrying on this way.

ELEANOR HALL: So how risky is it?

TAREK TARHOUNY: Oh very risky. Closer to the Libyan waters - waters controlled by the regime in Libya.

So getting in and out, it's very, very difficult. In fact we failed in several attempts but we managed to sneak through.

ELEANOR HALL: How do you manage it?

TAREK TARHOUNY: Well it's… (laughs). We're just dodging the patrol boats. You have to be very patient and just make a dash for it.

ELEANOR HALL: And where do you dock?

TAREK TARHOUNY: Inside Misurata port. It's controlled by the opposition so that's safe enough.

But the problem is getting into the port. Getting out again is another problem.

ELEANOR HALL: And have you encountered any problems? Has anyone not actually managed to get in or get back?

TAREK TARHOUNY: Yes it was difficult getting in. In fact we failed, so we came back and made another attempt - managed to get in because the patrol boat are (inaudible).

Although there is a few of them - sometimes two, sometimes there are up to five.

...


ELEANOR HALL: So they would fire on you if they saw you?

TAREK TARHOUNY: Oh yes, yes. We make sure that we stay within their fighting distance.

Some of these patrol boats can be quite fast.

ELEANOR HALL: So how many boatloads have you managed to get in so far?

TAREK TARHOUNY: So far we made about three attempts, but we were successful in two and we're going again so, you know, we just have to keep trying.

We cannot stop. So we just have to keep trying.

At the moment I have to emphasise now the only supply line to Misurata is by sea because the city being under siege now for approximately 40 days now.

And you can imagine the humanitarian supplies - we're talking food, medicine - Misurata suffers now from no water, no electricity and no communication with the outside world.

So you can imagine the conditions there are very, very desperate.

...


ELEANOR HALL: What are people in Misurata telling you about the sorts of attacks that they're coming under from government forces?

TAREK TARHOUNY: It's a very sad situation, because this bombing that happens in Misurata which is based on artillery shelling - the civilian obviously always hit.

And you can see from reports in the media that there's a lot of homes, houses being destroyed by artillery shelling.

This shelling is not concentrated on any part. I mean the same, a few days ago the port was under shelling as well. The guys are saying that they're holding on.

But the problem we're worried about - we don't know how long they can hold on, because as you know this constant shelling and bombing - it just cannot go forever because these people have very limited resources and we are extremely worried about the situation.

It's a very, very dangerous situation.

ELEANOR HALL: What will happen to people there if the Gaddafi forces do manage to actually takeover from the rebels inside the town?

TAREK TARHOUNY: Well you can just take Zawiya as example and (inaudible) or the (inaudible) where the brigades really took revenge by punishing these areas severely, and you know, mercilessly.

Because if they do enter - the Gaddafi brigade - it's going to be - it's - it's just a massacre, you know, it's crazy.

Nobody even willing to attempt even to think about the consequences because it's a nightmare.

...

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2011/s3177573.htm

[tabatha]

106. Stories from the Youth in Gaddafi’s Libya

(for Josh, who identifies so much with Libyan youth)

In a world where analysts often express their fears of a generation of self-centered, unmotivated youth, the forces of sweeping change across the Arab world appear puzzling. The marginalized youth in Libya are anything but ambivalent to society’s woes. They are the the motors of change and refuse than accepting the status quo.

Although they may not be old enough to remember the patent cruelties of the Gaddafi regime – the televised public hangings, the massacres of Abu Salem among them – most of the Libyan youth have felt the brunt of this supposedly sleeping dragon in some direct form. These stories reflect the everyday struggles under Gaddafi’s suffocating regime that have motivated the youth to stand up and take a firm hold of their futures.

Maysa’s Story:

I first met Maysa at my summer job in Libya. She and her sister served coffee to employees, though both of them held college degrees. I noticed that Maysa tended to walk a bit off center. I hushed my curiosity in fear of making her uncomfortable. One day on my drive home from work, I noticed her and her sister walking and offered them a ride. As we neared their neighborhood, narrow, streets crowded with small, old, and poorly constructed houses came into view. A mere mile from my own home, this neighborhood was unlike any I have ever seen in Libya.

I often drove by the slanted, concrete apartments that dot the city. I had often been told that such conditions of squalor were primarily the fate of low-paid foreign workers. As Maysa and her sister gave their goodbyes, I realized the distortion of my and many others’ perception of reality. It is much easier to believe that these conditions are an ‘improvement’ for foreigners who would otherwise be unemployed rather than accept that the siphoning of Libyan wealth had left so many families below the poverty line.

http://feb17.info/editorials/stories-from-the-youth-in-gaddafis-libya/

[pinboy3niner]

108. Gaddafi names new Ambassador to UN--a former Nicaraguan FM (Could this get more surreal?)

Former Nicaraguan foreign minister Miguel D'Escoto will be the new official representative of Libya's Muammar Gaddafi to the United Nations, Nicaragua's first lady - former Sandanista revolutionary and wife of Daniel Ortega - Rosario Murillo has told the AFP news agency.


4:43am
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-30

[David__77]

109. As a diplomatic move, that was smart.

The Tripoli authorities have very little in the way of international support right now, but any way they can leverage old tactical alliances from the pre-1989 period would help them to a small extent. The best they can hope is to win neutrality from certain circles.

[kenny blankenship]

110. Any Libyan they sent out of the country would be likely to defect - like the Ambassadors before 'em

So yeah, Gaddafy's kind of limited in what he can do here. Get a foreigner to represent your unelected dictatorship to the world - makes perfect sense.

[pinboy3niner]

112. You always nail it, Kenny

Searching for news and info for these threads keeps me pretty busy, and I rarely have time to respond, but I appreciate all your contributions here. Well done, again. :fistbump:

[David__77]

113. For whatever reason, sure.

Even if he could get a Libyan, it wouldn't be especially helpful for a "Gaddafi loyalist" to be international spokesperson.

[pinboy3niner]

114. Smart to have it announced by the First Lady of a country on another continent?

It strikes me as more bizarre than smart.

[David__77]

117. Yeah, bizarre is right.

But if nothing else, it's attention-getting. This is more for play in certain developing countries. It certainly is not aimed at the people or policy makers in developed countries.

[Waiting For Everyman]

116. He should've appointed "the Donald".

:rofl:

[pinboy3niner]

119. That's outsourcing I could believe in! :)

:rofl:

[Waiting For Everyman]

120. Cool video: "United We Rise"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x568074

[Waiting For Everyman]

121. #EpicLibyanMan: pic gallery

By tweeter IbnOmar2005

http://epiclibyan.tumblr.com/page/1

Click arrow at bottom of page for additional pages.

[pinboy3niner]

122. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 12:10 PM WEDNESDAY, MARCH 30

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[defendandprotect]

125. LIBYA HURRA -- !!

[joshcryer]

123. Part 2 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x772167