Garden as If Your Life Depends On It--Because It Will

[ensho]

http://counterpunch.com/laconte03302011.html


The Future of Agriculture


-snip-

In some American towns, and not just impoverished backwaters, as many as 30 percent of residents can't afford to feed themselves and their families sufficiently, let alone nutritiously. Here in the Piedmont Triad of North Carolina where I live it's 25 percent. Across the country one out of six of the elderly suffers from malnutrition and hunger. And the number of children served one or two of their heartiest, healthiest meals by their schools grows annually as the number of them living at poverty levels tops twenty percent. Thirty-seven million Americans rely on food banks that now routinely sport half-empty shelves and report near-empty bank accounts. And this is a prosperous nation!

-snip-

What's for Supper Down the Road?

As they move through the next few decades Americans can expect

* the price of conventionally produced food to rise and not come down again,

* prices to rollercoaster so that budgeting is unpredictable,

* some foods to become very expensive compared to what we're used to

* and others, beginning with some of the multiple versions of the same thing made by the same company to garner a bigger market share and more shelf space, to gradually become unavailable.

-snip-

Why's Gardening So Important Now?

There are at least five reasons why more of us should take up spade, rake and hoe, make compost and raise good soil and garden beds with a vengeance, starting this spring and with an eye toward forever.

-snip #1 is peak oil. #2 peak soil #3 monoculture = messed with by agro Barons #4 global warming #5 bad economy-

In a subsequent column I'll review five variations on the theme of gardening to counterbalance the five reasons I think we need to.

* Back-yard, back-porch, back-40 gardening

* Community gardens

* Community Supported Agriculture

* Urban gardening

* Taking the 'Burbs

-----------------------------------

seriously, take this to heart

[nc4bo]

1. Kicked and Rec'd and wish I could do it a million more times! nt

Edit to fix sentence happy fingers mishmashed :)

[Liberal_in_LA]

68. I'll help you out with a kick

:-)

[Liberty Belle]

205. Water here is sky-high, and now they are going to fluoridate it....

so we can't even grow pure foods, and it costs more than buying them due to sky-high water costs. ;-(

[Donnachaidh]

2. even folks in apartments can have gardens in pots

We've been doing it for a solid 5 years. I'm planning this year's crops today. You can even utilize the porch poles for vining plants. Just takes a little planning.

[ensho]

6. more and more city folk are gardening in containers

share some tips if you can

[jwirr]

14. Our extension office & the master gardeners are having a class on

growing in pots. If you have something you would like to learn encourage this group to give a class. We are paying $5 for a one night class.

[Gormy Cuss]

114. The county extension master gardeners can be great resources.

I've attended a local series this year and even though I've been gardening here for a dozen years I came away from each class with new ideas and knowledge.

[Lyric]

47. Yep, that's what we do.

I don't have a yard--I have a gravel pull-in area and a big front porch. So we built a couple of small raised beds down in the gravel area for flowers and vine plants (like zucchini and cucumbers), and we grow everything else in 5-gallon buckets and other containers--tomatoes, bell peppers, hot peppers, carrots, and many different herbs. We had a great harvest last year and we're currently nurturing along this years' sprouts. :)

[MountainLaurel]

59. On the reuse front

The big plastic containers that cat litter comes in make great pots for bush veggies. Because they have handles, they're fairly mobile until the plants get too big.

[ipaint]

117. Sub-irrigation planters. The only way to grow in pots.

I've made these myself using containers I got on my local freecycle site.

Easy to make and veggies grow great with very little water compared to a traditional garden or pot.

http://www.insideurbangreen.org/diy-sub-irrigation/

Soda bottles, great for seedlings-

http://mypatiofarm.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/soda-bottle-self-irrigation-planters/

[Baclava]

281. That is cool as hell. I'm gonna try it.

I just want half dozen each pepper and tomatoe plants

[JDPriestly]

172. Like me. And in LA no less.

This year I am planting by the moon phases and getting more seedlings to sprout and healthier, stronger plants. I live in the city but I compost and have a worm bin. I'm not growing a lot in my small back yard, but it sure is good. It doesn't rain here much, so I have to water a lot. Pots make good use of water I think. I cover them with old curtains or netting from a fabric shop to reduce sun exposure and keep moisture on them. The curtains don't disintegrate into the soil like plastic does.

I'm really working on my soil trying to improve it every year. This year in the portion of my garden that is actually in the ground (a few narrow strips), I am planting peas and beans to increase the nitrogen content of the soil.

[Dappleganger]

15. This is what we do. If you have a bad back it's really the best way...

we have our pots already filled with seedlings (north FL) around our screened-in pool enclosure. We have rain barrels set up on both sides so it's easy to access free water during the growing season.

[axollot]

223. Waves! Another in N FL! Growing now too. Finally rain as well! n/t

[Dappleganger]

236. The rain's been going non-stop...

hard on kiddos who were hoping for a beach week during spring break, but we desperately needed this rain, right?

[rhett o rick]

116. I work at a community food bank and we plant gardens in 5 gallon buckets and give them to the needy.

[jwirr]

147. That is a good idea.

[silverweb]

161. What a great idea!

What do you plant in the buckets?

[willing dwarf]

208. What do you put in the 5 gallon bucket?

I worked 10 yrs at a community garden/soup kitchen/food pantry. I can't imagine what you could grow in a 5 gallong bucket that would really help feed a family, except maybe spinach or squash. It sounds nice, but not at all likely to make any lasting change. -- Most of the people in the community program I worked with (urban African American people with roots in the south) knew a lot more about gardening than the volunteers (mostly white suburban) who came to work there.

Seems to me probably the best way to find out how to grow more vegetables in poor soil is to find an African American urban gardener and learn what they know. Like the market gardeners of the circa 1700 Paris suburbs, these folks know how to grow food.

[Le Taz Hot]

222. Tomatoes and peppers grow well

in 5-gallon buckets. I've been doing it for years. I buy potting soil and re-use it, each year adding my own worm-casting-rich compost, which is free I find that I learn gardening tips from all kinds of people and it's never been uh, race-related. :shrug:

[rhett o rick]

287. WE plant them with salad lettuces, radishes, and a few green onions.

We give out some tomato plants and seeds also.

[NJCher]

218. The Vertical Farm

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z%2BOjDEd7L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg


We will be building stackable vertical farms:



Do an image search on Google under "stackable vertical farms" and you will see some amazing, beautiful buildings/farms.


Cher

[WatsonT]

271. http://www.windowfarms.org/

It's a cool idea. Takes some doing to get started but nothing too unreasonable.

[SaveAmerica]

280. Here's an interesting way to grow things in a small space, good for the elderly

who can't work in a garden anymore because of all the bending and stooping.

http://earthfirst.com/turn-an-old-shoe-organizer-into-a-vertical-garden/

[joeybee12]

3. knr

[FirstLight]

4. Crop Mob - it's a movement

Like 'barn raising' in the old days, it's a community gardening movement.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Crop-Mob-Piedmont/357841342867?ref=ts

I'm in the high sierras, our growing season is about 3-4 months... so my skills need to be honed in preserving and canning
but i have been working on getting better at my gardening efforts every year, this year i am gonna have a makeshift greenhouse/frost cover to use when we get those chilly nights.
I just have to wait for about 4 feet of snow to melt! ack!

[ensho]

5. good on you - let us know how it goes this year

nt

[Cleita]

7. You can actually grow a lot of edibles in containers

especially enough for one or two persons. I do this with salad greens and some kitchen herbs because I can control the soil, the sun and the irrigation as well as the pests with various deterrents and still be organic.

[RevStPatrick]

8. We've ripped up the little bit of grass...

...we had in our tiny New York City back yard.
We're putting in a raised bed for veggies, and we're potting all kinds of herbs and other edibles. It'll probably take a couple of years to get it right, but then we plan on eating from our garden 'til forever.

[RevStPatrick]

11. And in a related matter...

Seeds of Change is giving away free seeds. You just pay for shipping.

http://seedsofchangefoods.com/sowingmillions/sowingmillions.aspx

[nc4bo]

12. Trying hard to get as many eyes to see as possible.....link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x773383

[JDPriestly]

200. nc4bo, have you tried the Seeds for Change seeds?

[nc4bo]

216. Nope but I think DUer MuseRider has and is happy. Says 2nd year seeds

had high success rate also.

Sounded fabulous to me :)

[Lorien]

43. Thanks for that! nt

[glinda]

54. Thanks! I sent for some seeds!

[shanti]

55. thanks so much for posting this!

i just sent off for my free seeds. what kind of veggie seeds did you get?

[nc4bo]

69. My mom (78 yo) was the one who alerted me about the give away....

she was watching some show on tv when the segment came on and noticed only lettuce, tomato and eggplant but missed the rest trying to get the contact information. Hopefully someone else who watched today can chime in.

25 packs though - think of it as a surprise :rofl:

[shanti]

90. i shall do that!

and i sent the link to my 79 yr old mother too. she lives in arizona and loves to garden, already has it going.

[PatentlyDemocratic]

104. Just a heads up re: Seeds of Change

http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/c/61/

Lots of negative reviews, including one describing a Los Alamos fire that dumped ash over their location.

I'm not making any judgment, but just wanted to throw this out there.

[RevStPatrick]

122. Interesting, thanks!

Looks like lots of customer service problems.
Maybe they're trying to repair their reputation?

[Mojorabbit]

186. That is so weird

Ihave ordered from them for years with nary a problem. I hope they get some good staff in there.

Bountiful gardens is great place for heirloom seeds also.

[liberal life]

168. Thank you!

:hi:





http://fucorporatemedia.com/

[NJCher]

221. yes it will

(take a couple years). I hope people understand that while you can indeed get a good harvest the first or second year, it still takes years and years to get to the point where you can raise enough to feed yourself.

A lot of that is the constant discipline of rooting out plants that have already produced and having planned in advance for something to put in place.


Cher

[leeroysphitz]

9. TL;DR

[FreakinDJ]

10. 2 Wheeled Tractor can convert 1-2 acres into producing farm

Way too many Urbanites sitting on an acre of weeds

Would like to find like minded Co-op farmers in my area interested in "Crop-Swaps". We have a 1/2 acre of fruit trees. They produce lots of fruit but give too much shade for corn growing next to them.

Also have a 8 Hp rototiller that can be pretty useful

[jwirr]

13. I am taking this to heart but this year I want to do something else

also - I want to create a butterfly garden just because of the beauty. My whole family is doing some kind of gardening. I bought hops plants for my granddaughter's fence line. The guys in the family are already thinking about brewing.

[yawnmaster]

16. I garden because it's fun, relaxing, rewarding and I love the tastes from my garden...

but I have nowhere near the acreage needed to support more than a very minor part of my family's caloric or nutritional needs.
Wish I did.
Will keep gardening anyway.

[SaveAmerica]

252. I have a vertical garden which lets me get a lot out of .18 of an acre

I plant the veg in a row and then push 8 foot strong stakes between each plant. This works really well for your vining plants and plants that can be trained upwards. The best row is tomatoes and cukes, alternating every other one.

The first year I did this I hammered nails all over the stakes so I can string hemp rope in a zig zag formation making a wide web of rope all along the stakes (which are about 3 or 4 feet apart from each other, the stakes with rope form a sort of wall behind the plants). I tie the tomato plants to the rope as they grow so they don't sprawl and the cukes grab naturally to the rope with its tendrils. This saves so much space and makes picking that much easier (especially good if you have an elderly neighbor who can't stoop to pick). I've also done this with green beans and will look to expand to other veggies this year.

And, a trick for a small yard is one I learned from my Granny; every bed of landscaped yard is a potential home to a vegetable plant. She had the most beautiful peonies, irises, other flowering plants and in between every one of them something edible was growing.

[wildbilln864]

17. * k&r! nt

[HillbillyBob]

18. We bought a place 4 yrs ago with all that in mind

Also start collecting and keeping Heirloom variety seeds. Plant at least a few each year to keep seeds from even if you cannot grow a full garden some pots in windows work too and LEDs @5500 kelvin light temp is the right wave length for pretty healthy plants.
Im using them to start seeds for this summers garden. I have them in a small green house where I am raising cuttings into saplings to plant an orchard from.

Learn to can and other wise preserve your crops. Dehydration can be iffy unless you have a good unit or know how to build one. There are several plans out there for making one from some lumber, tin cans, black paint and glass, one has a small fan run by solar panel.
I'm not against dehydrating, it's just that I have one of those 'Ronco' round tower looking thing...it gets a little too warm if you want to dry and save seeds, and cannot dry tomatoes or other juicy fruits like peaches before spoiling . You also cannot put the trays in the dishwasher. ;(
We will be also growing figs and kiwis which I think have to be dried with faster air flow, but not higher heat.

I'm learning about hyrdro and aero ponics so we can have fresh salad greens in winter and the high heat of summer.

We have really kicked our power bill by finding air leaks in the houses envelope , put up insulating curtain liners, put plug strips on the small appliances in the kitchen and else where and can turn of the strip when not using. I put twist timers on closet lights and bathroom exhaust fans for 20 minutes.. I suggest getting ones that can be set for an hour since I have to run them a couple times after a hot shower sometimes. When you replace an appliance look at the wattage it takes to run it. I have electric mixers and blenders, but unless cooking for a crowd I just do by hand.

[Shagbark Hickory]

19. What if your climate doesn't support traditional food crops?

[HillbillyBob]

27. There are all kinds of crops you can grow to fit various

climate and soils..

That is where county ag extensions come in handy as they will know what crops will do best in your area, but bear in mind in some states they will laugh at you if you say organic..personal exp.

[Shagbark Hickory]

75. What can they grow in alaska?

[nc4bo]

78. Wow, alot more than I'd ever thought

List says south central Alaska - there's probably even more out there. Google's been especially helpful!

http://www.alaskamastergardeners.org/Recommended/Recommended.html

Looks to be from 2003 but don't see why it's not a good info source.

[Shagbark Hickory]

86. well they have those super long days in the summer but they are just gonna have to eat frozen veg

for most of the year?! Or maybe grow stuff in a greenhouse?

[chriscruzan]

88. Matanuska Valley

Alaska grows some of the worlds largest veggies in the valley just north of Anchorage. Something about 20 + sunhours per day during the summer months.

[Shagbark Hickory]

125. Yeah but summer is like 60 days tops there, isn't it? Are you going to eat frozen veg the rest of

the time?

[chriscruzan]

138. same would apply to Indiana

Indoor growing would have to supplement, unless you have enough space to grow for canning purposes. 60 days may be pushing it in AK. I spent a summer and fall there working for the USFS. 70 degrees first week of May and never saw those temps again. I will say I learned more about subsistence lifestyles from the folks I worked with in AK than anywhere else. Real Alaskans would consider Sarah Palin an "outsider".

[Shagbark Hickory]

144. What about corn? You can't grow corn in Alaska. And grains?

Indiana seems bountiful to me.

To live in Alaska, you gotta hunt moose , bears and seals and eat fish.
I don't know how a vegetarian would make it if they had to produce their own food.

[bhikkhu]

159. Talk to people who garden there - there's a lot that'll grow

I keep a good garden at a cold and snowy 5000 ft, with a growing season from about June - September. Start seeds indoors early, keep the garden beds well mulched in winter, shelter it from wind if you can, and grow "early" crops. After some years of doing it, I always get plenty of tomatoes, cucumbers, corn, lettuce, onions and so forth. The problem is more storage, so I grow mostly what I know how to process and store.

[Shagbark Hickory]

167. How could you possibly grow corn?

[bhikkhu]

171. "Peaches and Cream", 70 day variety grows well here

Last year for instance we had a very cold spring, but use heavy leaf mulch to keep the ground from freezing, and the composting leaves also help to warm the soil (which is one big factor in getting things started quick). So when the summer finally set in toward the end of June we planted corn seed in a well-mulched bed. It came up and grew well, and by September we were eating fresh corn from the garden. We didn't have a hard frost until the end of September, when I took the corn all in - 60 ears or so left. We froze some (which we just finished off last week) and distributed the rest among neighbors.

Other years we have started corn inside, but it grows so fast in warm ground once the sun is out that didn't seem worth the extra work.

One of the advantages of cold weather is that it kills off most pests. I don't have any use for pesticides, except for a little slug repellent in the lettuce.

[Shagbark Hickory]

226. That's amazing. I'm impressed! There's a farm nearby that tries every year to grow corn.

It's always brown and dead by harvest. I guess it gets too dry here.

[Knight Hawk]

169. Hunt and Fish

I do not know how close you are to water but if I lived in Alaska I think I would do a lot of hunting,trapping and fishing.How many veggies do the Eskimos grow?

[Shagbark Hickory]

279. That's what I'm saying. The post is about grow your own. I think you can hunt your own maybe.

Growing your own would be tough, I'd imagine.
Of course if everyone were forced to hunt and fish, I'd imagine it would become very difficult to do either after a relatively short period of time. Too many babies.

[wickerwoman]

193. Lots of vegetables grow in the winter.

All the cruciform veggies (broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts) and the root veggies (potatoes, sweet potatoes, carrots, parsnips, beets, turnips, etc.) like cold weather. Unless you're living on permafrost you can probably grow something for a larger part of the year than you would expect (and even then, there's always the magic of container gardening...)

Anyway, it's not about 100% reliance on your garden. I can't feed myself based on what I grow on a 3'x 8'balcony, but I get all of my herbs, plus way more tomatoes, bell peppers and chili peppers than I can eat. I'm thinking about trying a dwarf lemon tree next year... as much to block out my chain-smoking neighbor as anything else but that's another story. Anyway, it's about enjoying as much really fresh food as you can and teaching yourself an important life skill... because if you ever *need* to garden, you're not going to pick it up in a week.

[Shagbark Hickory]

278. You're not in Alaska, are you?

[wickerwoman]

282. Did I say I was?

If you're actually interesting in learning something about gardening, you've been given good advice on this thread.

1.) There are crops other than corn. Many of them actually grow better in cold weather.

2.) See your local extension agent for information on what will grow in your area.

I have nothing to add to this advice. If you choose to continue to ignore it that's up to you.

[Shagbark Hickory]

283. You don't need to get grouchy. It was just a question.

I suspected that you didn't live in alaska (nor do I btw) because you mentioned growing some of cool season crops. I don't actually think they would make it during the alaska winters and if they did, you'd have some issues digging them out from under 10 feet of snow and ice. In the summer maybe. Winter is the question.

[AllyCat]

119. Seeds of Change catalog could be an eye-opener for you.

There are many things I can't grow in our climate and envy yours because of the cool stuff you can grow :)

[harun]

137. Lots of things grow well indoors.

Just to see what would happen I started in my window sill wheat, amaranth, quinoa, broccoli rabb and even lentils. I obviously can't grow them all indoors but it was fun to start them to see what they would look like.

Lettuce, radishes, tomatoes (small cherry), etc. all grow fine indoors in the window.

[jwirr]

152. Just a note to all in this blog about tomatoes - at the end of the season

bring tomatoes in a 5 gallon container and set them in a east or south facing window and they will provide fresh tomatoes all winter long. A friend of mine did that here in MN. I am going to try it this year.

[SaveAmerica]

255. Oooh thanks for the tip!! I dread the day the last tomato is picked and yearn for the first planting

I'll try this with a couple containers of tomatoes this year.

[silverweb]

209. Windowfarming is a hot ticket these days.

http://www.windowfarms.org

[VoteProgressive]

20. Not in our lifetime. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. Gardening when it counts

http://www.amazon.com/Gardening-When-Counts-Growing-Mother/dp/086571553X

The decline of cheap oil is inspiring increasing numbers of North Americans to achieve some measure of backyard food self-sufficiency. In hard times, the family can be greatly helped by growing a highly productive food garden, requiring little cash outlay or watering.

Currently popular intensive vegetable gardening methods are largely inappropriate to this new circumstance. Crowded raised beds require high inputs of water, fertility and organic matter, and demand large amounts of human time and effort. But, except for labor, these inputs depend on the price of oil. Prior to the 1970s, North American home food growing used more land with less labor, with wider plant spacing, with less or no irrigation, and all done with sharp hand tools. But these sustainable systems have been largely forgotten. Gardening When It Counts helps readers rediscover traditional low-input gardening methods to produce healthy food.

Designed for readers with no experience and applicable to most areas in the English-speaking world except the tropics and hot deserts, this book shows that any family with access to 3-5,000 sq. ft. of garden land can halve their food costs using a growing system requiring just the odd bucketful of household waste water, perhaps two hundred dollars worth of hand tools, and about the same amount spent on supplies — working an average of two hours a day during the growing season.

Steve Solomon is a well-known west coast gardener and author of five previous books, including Growing Vegetables West of the Cascades which has appeared in five editions.

[quaker bill]

134. Intensive organic gardening works fine

The irrigation needs are modest and I can do it all by hand in 10 minutes. My intensive beds only need irrigation as the seedlings establish and build canopy cover. Once the soil is leafed over, irrigation needs are minimal as the microclimate created retains humidity by reducing wind exposure and keeping soil temps down. I fertilize mostly with compost and bring in a small quantity of manure annually. If my place allowed for a few chickens, I would not even need to do that.

Having tried it both ways, I find spreading the plants out to be more labor intensive and less productive

[bvar22]

22. In 2006 My Wife & & sold everything, left the Big City, moved to The Woods,

and planted a BIG Garden.
So far, so good.
.
.
.
Health & Survival concerns aside,
we would have done this for the taste only.

We harvested our FIRST Asparagus Spears yesterday.
They were sublime.
:hippie:

[in_cog_ni_to]

23. I'm seriously considering growing our own food....as limited as that will be

because we live in a townhouse and have very little space to do it. I've thought about some Earth Box gardens instead of planting my usual flower garden. With an Earth Box...you go vertical instead of horizontal. It could work. I may pick up canning food again too. It's been years since I've done that.

http://www.earthbox.com/

Garbage Can potatoes:

Garbage Can Potatoes (almost)

Potatoes aren’t particular about their growing conditions. When I was very young, I heard often of the “rocky soil of Maine” as ideal for growing potatoes. The neighbor farmer who plowed my family’s kitchen garden each spring told us we could put potatoes on the ground and cover them with straw, and they’d produce spuds. So, unless you get late blight in your garden, you’ll probably get a few keepers however you plant potatoes.

I bought the smallest seed potatoes I could find, but each had enough eyes that I could cut it into at least two pieces. Some, I cut into three pieces, trying to leave ample material behind each eye.

But some years ago, neighbors told my parents about garbage can potatoes and I’m trying this growing method in 2010.

The idea is: you put a few inches of soil into a garbage can, set seed potatoes on the soil, then cover the potatoes with a few more inches of soil. When the potato sprouts reach about eight inches above the soil, you add more soil, leaving just the top few leaves sticking out. As the plants grow, you add soil periodically until you’ve filled the garbage can. At that point, you let the plants go and they finish up naturally: setting flowers and then seeds, and then they dry up.

At that point, you dump the garbage can and, supposedly, you find it filled from bottom-to-top with potatoes… maybe five pounds or more from a single seed potato.<snip>

[Autumn Colors]

84. How to grow 100 pounds of potatoes in 4 square feet

How to grow 100 pounds of potatoes in 4 square feet.

http://www.re-nest.com/re-nest/gardening/how-to-grow-100-pounds-of-potatoes-in-4-square-feet-081760

[InvisibleTouch]

132. That's a neat variant on the potato tower.

My question is, though, how do they get enough sunlight in the early stages when the plants are still way down in the bottom of the garbage can?

Also, be sure you don't use "early maturing" potatoes, because you'll only have crops in the lowermost layer, and the rest will be all roots. There are certain varieties that are better suited to tower planting.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

214. Make your own Earthbox

http://www.seattleoil.com/Flyers/Earthbox.pdf

This will also answer the question of the 5 gallon containers. What can you grow in them?
You also get to pick your size - some people may not have the room for the standard Earthbox -
some may want more room. You can control the depth, good for root crops such as carrots.
These can be brought inside also. With the price of CFL's com coming down and the variety increasing,
they are becoming a good choice for lighting indoor gardens. Just have to make sure you get the right
balance of light (Daylight) and intensity (lumens), higher the better.

On an unrelated subject, people need to use their veggies and food leftovers to the max.

We save (freeze) all of our veggie "garbage". The tops and bottoms of the onions you trim off, the carrot skins
the potato skins, ends of all our trimmings. We save the stems of our herbs, woody or not. These are garnered into
freezer bags, frozen, when full, boiled in water to make broth. Use as soup starters, the base for a healthy saute.
A full gallon size freezer bag, full so you can't zip it anymore, will give you approx. 5 quarts of broth.

We fill containers of the 2 cup size and freeze those for future use.
Also make our own beef and chicken stock, all from what a lot of people would throw away,
really does not take much time, but saves tons of money.

Working on dehydrating the above, in case of power outages.
Also saves on the weight factor if travel out of area is needed.

[bobbolink]

24. Then people who can't garden are dead. No big deal. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[nc4bo]

25. I priced a green bell pepper @ $1.69 for one and I've seen them as high as $2 for one....

If you like green peppers this gets expensive real fast.

One year we planted bell peppers into 5 gallon plastic pots that some perennial I can't recall now came in.

That one plant in one pot produced around 10 bell peppers. Eat one, freeze the rest.

Just a pot, a mostly sunny spot, little food and water was all that was needed and when the prices soar, you get to save.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nc4bo]

30. sigh.....guess I'll go plant some extra flowers - carnations and lillies would be appropriate

I guess. :shrug:

So what's wrong? Think you have a brown thumb or something?

[bobbolink]

33. Can you imagine any people who cannot garden? Can you think of any possible circumstances where

that can be true?

Think.

[nc4bo]

42. Any thing is possible and nothing is totally impossible. nt

[bobbolink]

48. What a fine way to wipe away those who lack your level of affluence.

[nc4bo]

53. Sorry you feel that way bobbolink. There are tons of resources available

about a variety of gardening topics that fits nearly every circumstance including community gardening. Unless you live in a cave 24/7, at the bare minimum you can grow yourself some basil, mint or chives in your windowsill. If in a cave, try some mushrooms.

I can only speak from the heart and personal experience and although there are some things I can never accomplish in this lifetime, it won't ever because I haven't put forth the effort of trying.

Unless I'm paralyzed, extremely disabled in mind or body in some way, I'll give something a try.

If I am successful in this accomplishment than I'm more than happy to share it with others.

If you lived close to me, I more than likely would share with you what I had grown whether you can't (for whatever reasons) grow something or choose not to. Honestly, just reading your postings here, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you used the back of my head as target practice with some of those very same vegetables.

[bobbolink]

79. Please tell me how I can grow basil chives and all that IN MY CAR.

I asked all of you to imagine circumstances where people cannot do wht you are preaching.

I am appalled that there is so much resistance to understanding that not everyone has your life.

Thinm about it.

[nc4bo]

83. I'm not going to argue with you bobbolink

instead I'm going to simply wish you peace.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

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[bobbolink]

124. It was a mirror for you,, love.

All that sweetness is giving me a toothache.

[ProudDad]

95. Your car can transport you to a place where people can grow food.

You are not as helpless as you allow yourself to think you are...

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demwing]

183. None of these people are responsible for your miserable condition

I feel for you - I have lived in a car myself, a 65 Mustang. I pulled the passenger seat out, threw in a futon, and my trunk was my closet. I've been there. It SUCKD. I hope to hell you get out quickly.

But why are you angry at people for suggesting we turn to gardening? How are they hurting you in any way? If you want people to raise their sensitivity, you really are going about this wrong.

Like I said, I do feel for you, but I don't feel guilty for gardening, or for doing any other damn thing I have to to support me and my son, and nor should anyone.

[uppityperson]

176. I had an herb garden when I lived in my truck. Pot with dirt and some herbs in it.

Sometimes it sat by me on the seat, sometimes in the back. It wasn't much but I did like having those little plants.

[Mojorabbit]

192. Another idea

These people are doing guerilla gardening as are other groups
One seed revolution is a great book on the philosophy.
http://www.guerrillagardening.org/ggseedbombs.html

If you can find an out of the way spot that is grown over and safe, this might be an option. Sprouts would be doable in the car.
Hoping things will look up soon.
Hugs.

[bobbolink]

289. What I would like to explain to you is that I wasn't asking for "ideas". If you will notice, no

where did I ask for advice.

What I was bringing to light is that all of you progressives need to start being aware that not everyone has your affluence, not everyone has your resources, not everyone has the same abilities you all have.

It seems a simple concept.

I don't know why there is so much resistance to grasping this simple fact.

[Alameda]

211. Guerrilla gardening is the way to go....

[bobbolink]

288. So, you would like to see a lot of us jailed for the issue, right?

I'm not willing to serve in that capacity for you.

[WinkyDink]

121. Don't spout such tripe.

[Alameda]

210. Take up guerrilla gardening

You need good soil, sun and water for most things. I've found one really has to evaluate what your conditions are and figure out what grows there. I have cultivated wild and indigenous things to grow where I am. Things like miner's lettuce, purslane, nettles. I know to many they are just weeds, but they are hardy and nutritious food.

Also, learn what edibles grow wild in your area and cultivate them....and learn to forage. If you open your eyes, you would be amazed at what abundance is around.

[reggie the dog]

34. I have no land, i rent and i have no balcony

i do have a garden, i plant weed hidden in the woods, i guess i could hide carrots too.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hatrack]

37. Two words - "Community Gardens"

Teh Google - it's your friend.

[bobbolink]

38. You really don't get it, do you? Some people just aren't like you.

The hostility in "teh google" is appalling.

How to Win Friends and Influence People. :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

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[Maru Kitteh]

49. Just because you don't want to participate in a community garden means nobody should garden?

Because some people can't/don't/won't nobody should? How the hell does that help? If you are expecting people to just give you the produce, where do you think it will come from if you are successful in running around and telling everyone else not to garden?

[reggie the dog]

61. perhaps they are confronted with something they cannot do

which they would like to do, but are perhaps handicapped, paralyzed or in a wheelchair or something which makes gardening really fucking difficult. it would also make finding a job difficult too.....

[nc4bo]

62. This is the reason why we need "community".

Where even the weakest of our links is included and thought about and needs considered.

If a person can't pick up a shovel, perhaps they can pick up a phone or a pen or use their gift of gab to talk to a city official, the owner of an unused parcel of land to allow use of an empty field or plot for gardening.

Maybe someone knows where a chicken, horse or cow farm is located or knows someone that knows the owner and knows someone else with a pickup truck - great way to get free fertilizer.

Maybe someone is a good organizer and can get put the dream to paper......

[Maru Kitteh]

120. And that posiibility was certainly allowed for. See: "can't." The question I asked was,

What good does it do to go about bitching other people out for planting gardens? Or talking about planting gardens? What possible usefulness does that serve? None.

[AtheistCrusader]

63. Would you feel better if the OP had said 'garden like your life and others dependent upon you depend

ed upon it'?

I don't think the OP was intentionally exclusive (certainly not in a mean way) of people who do not have stable access to any land at all upon which to grow food.

Homeless/infirm/etc are something we as a community will have to help, regardless of whether food is 'cheap' to most of us, or expensive, or something inaccessibly priced that we have to claw out of the dirt ourselves.

[bobbolink]

81. I don't think that most people ARE intentionally exclusive. BUT, when it has been pointed out over

and over and over, and STILLL this attitude exists that "If *I* can do it, anybody can", then, yes, it becomes willful exclusion.

That is not only harmful to those excluded, but if wht you (plural) are most insterested in is winning elections, they it amounts to shooting yourselves in the foot.

It really isn't that hard to expand your (plural) awareness and recognize that not all fit your situation.

WHY is that so hard to grasp?

Why do I get called all kinds of despicable names for bringing it up?

It is simply a very basic awareness.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal_in_LA]

274. A kick for Bobbolink! We need to remember the homeless when discussing issues of survival

[reggie the dog]

44. not at all bobbolink

it is a royal pain in the ass to lug backpacks full of dirt out onto other peoples land or public land, illegally turn the soil, illegally put in seeds, hope no one steal it, or hope the cops dont find it or animals eat it. and it is not just because i grow weed, it is ILLEGAL TO GROW ANYTHING on someone elses land or on public land. i also am able to move because my body is holding out for now so i can indeed put on a back pack, ride 5 miles, drop it, do it 4 more times in a day, but the reward for food would save me so little, i only need to get 5 cannabis plants to actually give me 100 grams each of flowers and i would smoke for free for the year, i can dig 5 holes and take dirt out without getting caught (i fled once after a helicopter spotted me, through a stream and underbrush) and the got my seedlings.


i was taking your side and being sarcastic about the fact that i have nowhere to grow, not in my apartment, no place to put pots and that i would have to plant the shit illegally in someones woods. If you live in a city you can try to illegally grow in a forest preseve if you have good moblilty but if you have a bad knee or something forget about it.

[bobbolink]

50. In the context of the judgemental attitude here, it didn't come across that way.

I appreciate your clarification.

So, when I asked if people could imagine cases where people aren't able to garden, you have listed two:

1. Those who have no access except illegally, and if they aren't able to take the chance of arrest, then that is that.

2. Those who are physically incapable. That seems to escape the awareness of so many. There are many here at DU who cannot because of physical limitations, but that doesn't seem to occur. It is very sad.

There are many more reasons, if people would be willing to step out of their own situation for just one minute.

[reggie the dog]

60. there is a passage in the grapes of wrath

that basically says the landowners cannot let people that dont own plant food crops because they would then consider it "their land". I cannot imagine gardening in a wheelchair would be easy either or if one has MS or something like that. If i had land i would be willing to let those without land grow but we would all have to share with some people who could not garden either, but i will never have land so it does not matter. being poor sort of sucks.

[bobbolink]

80. Private ownership of land is theft from mother earth.

And it is appalling that "progressives" simply cannot and will not understand that not everyone has their own little corner.

Absolutely appalling.

Thenn they wonder why they don't get all the votes they want.

Appalling.

[uppityperson]

177. I find it appalling and rather insulting that those of us lucky enough to own land are called thieve

by those who aren't. I find it appalling that some simply cannot and will not understand that just because 1 person has something does not mean another is worth less for not being so.

[Mojorabbit]

190. One doesn't have to garden to find good things

out in nature to eat. Dandelions, sow thistle, cattails, false hawksbeard, plantain, and on and on. There are a gazillion wild edibles out there most people call weeds. We need a good education program and every child should be able to point out a couple of the safest wild weeds that are edible. They should learn it in school.

[roxiejules]

74. We need solutions

One of the most common arguments I now hear from the right wing is how 'liberals' came of out of the woodwork to protest the demise of the unions and they wonder why, if we care so much about people we have not done the same for those in poverty. Where is the protest march for the poor?

Back in the day of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire there were places for homeless pets and almost none for families and children.

We have got to become more vocal about poverty. If the average person will need to garden in order to survive, how will the most needy overcome?

We need solutions for this issue. I don't have the answers, but I do have a voice.

[bobbolink]

82. "there were places for homeless pets and almost none for families and children"

THANK YOU!

That is really important.

Do you have a source for that? I would be most grateful!

And thanks.... you may get skewered for posting that, but just know I appreciate it!

:yourock:

[roxiejules]

187. The Child Being an Animal

"In 1874 a New York social worker, Etta Angel Wheeler found a little girl wandering naked through the slums. The child had been beaten and slashed by her drunken foster mother and then chased from home. Unable to find a haven for her, Miss Wheeler asked the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals for help; it was decided that "the child being an animal" the Society would give it protection. An animal – the end product of slum life. Disfigured by the bestiality of home, thousands of urchins wandered the streets – an 1880 estimate had 100,000 loose in New York – cunning, predatory, with an instinct for survival that rivaled an alley cat's. They slept under doorways, in discarded boxes and barrels; they fought, blasphemed, begged and stole; and in the end they gravitated to prostitution and crime. It was the natural succession of their unnatural orbit."


http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/liberalrecord.html



:hi:

[adigal]

266. The places for homeless pets kill them after 3 to 5 days

Sometimes, brutally, with heartsticking or shoving dogs, cats, pups and kittens together in gas chambers. We don't generally do that with homeless children.

[uppityperson]

76. Those of us who can garden should to help out as we can. My gram had a big garden, fed a lot

of people passing through town on the train during the last big depression. A friend of the family noticed varied people jumping off the train and walking the same path so followed, straight to my gram's back door where they were served a hot meal. Sometimes they helped by chopping a bit of wood, sometimes just eating and moving on.

I have a big garden to not only feed myself but to give what I can to others. Those of us who can should. Those who cannot cannot. Working as a community, pulling together, it can help.

[Lifelong Protester]

160. Hey, bobbolink, any chance there are urban garden plots in your

area? I know in many urban areas, there are community garden plots that folks can sign up for a parcial and grow veggies. I'd try looking into that. Schools also have gardens (mine does) and if someone came to help over the summer, they could take some good fresh vegetables (the cherry tomatoes were especially good).

[wickerwoman]

277. Some areas also have landshare programs.

They match up older people with land who are in poor health and can't maintain a garden by themselves, with younger people who want fresh produce but can't afford the land.

http://www.landshareaustralia.com.au/map/pc:3144/

You tend the garden and get to keep a percent of the produce.

[Joe Fields]

243. you really love wearing homelessness like a badge of honor.

I especially love the way you try to own homelessness as though no one but you knows anything about it or being poor.

[IDemo]

26. I've had terrible luck with gardening but still hang in there

We have 4 raised beds - three 4' x 8' and one 4' x 12'. I've grown tomatoes, onions, bell peppers, lettuce and other crops. Part of our problem is we go from basically a monsoon season (now!) to very hot, dry weather. Keeping the correct amount of water on the plants without over-watering is a challenge, even with plentiful mulch. Another weather challenge can come in the form of violent thunderstorms with 50 mph or greater winds. We generally get a few of these each summer. And a third issue is simply that plants don't seem to want to grow or produce; I've given up on getting usable bell peppers, carrots were off my list years ago (they usually wound up looking like a tiny alien thumb and tough as wood to eat).

I may just stick to onions this year for a couple of beds, they do quite well and last all winter. Maybe one tomato in a sturdy cage. Don't even ask about the total lack of bees.

[Catherina]

29. And chickens for eggs too. Rec'd

[AtheistCrusader]

64. Building a coop this weekend actually.

Got everything I need from a house that was torn down.

[nc4bo]

92. Hope you take picks and share 'em. I'm trying to talk my husband into

us building one. I love chickens!

[Catherina]

128. Have fun. You're gonna love your babies so much lol n/t

[Mojorabbit]

203. I ended up with fowl pox

a couple of years ago. Mosquitos carry it. I had no idea. I have learned a lot as I go and have tons more to learn.

[geardaddy]

31. K and R

and compost as if your life depended on it.

[era veteran]

197. Go organic, make your own compost and don't become

reliant on the agri-chem industry. Improve soils as you can. Rodale was right.
Gardening is good for your soul.

[geardaddy]

239. I know. That's what I was referring to

Make your own. We do vermiculture indoors and compost at a neighbor's outdoors, since we don't have the space in our tiny backyard behind our apt.

[ProgressIn2008]

32. Good article from Counterpunch. K&R. nt

[jillan]

35. It is so inexpensive and easy to grow your own salad. And so nutritious at the same time.

And delicious. You can get packets of seeds for about $1 each and eat fresh salad, free of pesticides and who knows what, almost all year round.

I grow spinach, butter lettuce and romaine. Every day I ge to the garden and pick my salad grown in organic compost with nothing stronger sprayed on them than organic dish soap used to kill whiteflies.

[geardaddy]

40. We ate lettuce, chard, cukes

all last summer. It was hard to keep up with all the produce!

[pitohui]

149. this makes me chuckle, you truly don't know how many calories are in spinach, lettuce, romaine,do u?

i'm picking your post at random to reply to, there are a million posts like it, i hope you understand that my rant is NOT personal, it's aimed at the whole thread of nice, kind, totally uninformed clueless gardeners out there who apparently never actually tried to raise real food to survive...

"oh yeah i'm so smart to keep from starving i'm a gonna grow me some greens!"

are people really so uninformed? do people really not know that the amount of calories in greens is trivial?

a garden of spinach, butter lettuce, and romaine makes zero difference in your life expectancy, the article talks about "your life depends upon it"/starvation -- fucking GREENS don't have sufficient calories to extend your life by five fucking minutes

there's nothing wrong w. a container garden, and there's nothing wrong w. growing herbs and greens, i do it myself, but for fuck's sake, to pretend that it makes a dime's worth of difference in an economic crisis is silly

if you folks believed what you were saying, you would be looking to grow crops that had sufficient calories to sustain life, not freaking herbs and salad greens...

sometimes i wonder about people, i really do, it's like they're robots, words come out but the brain is never engaged

this is not rocket science, even 9 year olds know that a head of lettuce has a trivial amount of calories, that's why bulimics eat the head of lettuce and barf up the chocolate bars

if you think the world is going to end and you won't have enough FOOD, raising greens is going to do fuck all, you need a serious plan

if you're just posting or responding to a scare article for entertainment, that's fine, but don't pretend that raising garden greens is a serious source of human calories

we are not cows, i guess if we were, we'd just eat our lawns

[Lifelong Protester]

165. And added to your garden, get to know and love beans

I have a store of dried beans, a small $7 crock pot, and I make many, many good ethnic dishes in particular, for pennies.

Most folks cannot live off the land, so to speak, but we can all find ways to reduce what we do eat that is ready made and espensive or out of season, learn to get off processed foods, and if you are lucky to be close to small farmers and a CSA, use that to your benefit. I learned as a youngster how to 'put food by', so I am dusting off those skills. No lazy summer for me!

I agree, gardening is only part of what is necessary to do.

[uppityperson]

178. If I don't have to buy vitamins or veggies then it helps me. We figured out how many

potatoes we'd need to survive on. We'd have to not only grow a lot but eat a lot more every day than I would be comfortable with. My attempt is not to feed myself totally, but to have good vegetables to eat so I will eat more healthily and stay healthier. If I don't have to go the doctor, it saves me money. If i don't have to buy veggies, it saves me money. Probably be cheaper to buy cheap vitamins and eat crap, but also the decreased stress helps me stay healthy.

I would not be able to buy as many veggies as I eat if I had to buy them all. It isn't JUST about calories.

[wickerwoman]

198. Greens have vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals,

antioxidants...

Survival isn't just a question of maximizing your calories. Otherwise you could live on lard... well, you could, but you'd have a twenty year life expectancy and it probably wouldn't be a lot of fun.

And the scenario isn't likely to be Mad Max or the Road. Far more likely is rising food costs and/or breakdown of the distribution network that keeps, for example, New York rolling in oranges, lemons and strawberries all winter.

Greens are usually one of the more expensive items on your grocery list (especially if you look at price per 100 calories, lettuce is one of the most expensive things you can buy). If you can grow it, and save that money to spend on calorie heavy things you can't grow (bean, grains, etc.) you'll have a slight nutritional advantage.

Lets say you live in NYC and there's a disruption of the food supply and suddenly orange juice costs $15 a carton. Spinach has heaps of vitamin C as do broccoli, parsley and kale. Those four things can be grown in window boxes or on balconies in New York, citrus trees can't.

People in the Mediterranean have survived largely on greens for long periods of time (during wars, etc.) Poor Greek people lived on "horta" boiled wild greens/weeds collected from the countryside during WWII. Splash on olive oil for calories and there are worse subsistence foods out there.

Anyway, every little bit helps. I can't grow corn or wheat on my balcony but I could get a pretty decent amount of spinach if I put my mind to it.

[eridani]

204. Micronutrients are great, but first you have to take care of the macro

Wondering when someone was going to point this out.

[Le Taz Hot]

229. Damn! Who pissed in your Cheerios?

Speaking as one of the "uninformed" who has been gardening for about 10 years now, a few thoughts:

- I don't expect to feed myself and my family entirely on my postage-stamp sized back yard but my garden supplements my grocery bill SIGNIFICANTLY.
- The produce is environmentally friendly in that it isn't being transported anywhere.
- Learn how to can. Eat what you can and can what you can't. Can in times of plenty for times of famine.
- Growing organic produce is much cheaper than buying it in the store.
- Lots and lots and lots and lots of things one can grow besides greens. (Were you frightened by a spinach leaf as a child or what? I've never seen so much hostility for green leafies before.)

[bvar22]

264. +1....my thoughts exactly.

It is NOT and All or Nothing deal.
Every little bit helps.

In 2006, my wife & I moved to The Woods and started Growing our Own.
This is our 5th growing season, and we are producing a good percentage of our own food,
but we will never be able to grow everything we need.
What we are able to grow is one less thing we have to buy.

It IS a lot of hard work,
but it is much more enjoyable than Working to make somebody else RICH.
We benefit 100% from every drop of sweat we shed in our garden,
and the richest man in the World will not eat Asparagus that is better than what we harvested yesterday from our garden.

It IS a learning process.
Every year we are more productive, and better at preserving for the Winter months.

For those contemplating doing this:
1)Free Range Chickens are the most cost effective year round source of healthy food.
2)Grow more BEANS

[WatsonT]

272. Greens/herbs/veggies for minerals and vitamins

Long pork for calories/lipids.

[adigal]

41. I have 40 acres, and was going to put in ornamental plants

around our planned patio/pond. I have changed the plans to put in all vegetables and fruits and berries. All organic/ non GMO seeds. And also, getting chickens and goats are in the plans.

Good website: www.homestead.org, which has 99% liberal people like us. There is another site, www.homesteadingtoday.com, but they are more right wing crazy. Check out the first site - tons of info out there.

[Lorien]

45. Thanks for the links! I'm going to pass them on to my mom

she and her roommate are putting in a square foot garden on their tiny plot. She lives on just $400.00 a month, so there's no room in the budget for higher food prices.

[bvar22]

46. Two additional sources:

Mother Earth News
http://www.motherearthnews.com
(Mother seems to be having trouble with their front page today)
This link will get you inside the mag:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening.aspx

Countryside & Small Stock Journal
http://www.countrysidemag.com/

Both of these cover everything you need to know about
Homesteading
Organic Gardening
Raised Bed Gardening
Backyard Chickens
Goats, Pigs, or cows
Preserving Produce
Energy Efficiency
Do-It-Yourself

In all of these, you WILL run across that nasty Libertarian/Survivalist/Conservative element mixed in with more enlightened views.
Throw out the trash, and save the rest.

[shanti]

56. mother earth news, absolutely!

i used to get that mag in the 70's when i yearned for a farm. it's full of excellent advice.

[silverweb]

148. Thanks!

Homestead.org looks fantastic. Bookmarked it to dig into when I have more time.

[shanti]

51. timely post

i just bought a copy of "square foot gardening". the soil in my yard is hardpan clay an unusable, so i figured i would try this type of container gardening.

[Le Taz Hot]

231. I have 3-square foot gardens.

They've worked REALLY well. Can I offer a suggestion? Instead of using the "Mel's Mix" which didn't work for me at all and was VERY expensive, go ahead and buy Miracle Grow Potting Mix or Gardening Mix. After you've pulled a crop and before you plant another, add either more mix or compost if you have it. Good luck!

[Obamanaut]

52. self delete -

[bvar22]

57. My wife & I already "garden as if our lives depend on it".

Our lives DO depend on it.
Things would be pretty grim around here if The Garden fails and the Chickens stop laying.

I guess we could live on Possum & Rabbits for a year,
but who would want to? :shrug:

[Rex]

58. Everyone that can, needs a victory garden. We have one.

[AtheistCrusader]

65. What do we do about the radioiodine and cesium?

[nc4bo]

67. It's been something in the back of my mind....

but like another DUer told me, if you eat food, it's going to take a hit somewhere whether it's grown at regular farm, organic farm, home.

It'll be in the air, water and soil regardless of who grew it.

[AtheistCrusader]

71. Yeah. I was mostly being snarky, there is nothing wrong with the OP's suggestion.

Unless we want to live off mold/fungus and yeasts grown deep underground away from the light of day.

Even then it might find it's way into groundwater.



I was just being a jerk, pay no mind.

[nc4bo]

73. ..

It's ok....I'll be first to admit that sometimes that snark goes right over my head **thick skull**.

:hi:

[louslobbs]

66. Kicked and Rec. Home grown tomatoes are the best.

Lou

[Paper Roses]

70. This growing season, flowers will be replaced by veggies.

I have planted tomatoes in pots before and have a shared garden of other veggies with a neighbor. I will still do that but now I plan to put veggies in those spots where I had always planted flowers.
I think my window boxes will now contain anything that does not require deep roots, perhaps the basil and parsley.

I shared a small area of flowers with another neighbor living next door to me. I think I'll ask her if I can plant green beans and wax beans in that spot, it is actually her land even though I care for the plants.
Whatever we can to to make life a little easier.

BTW: All feelings aside, Walmart sells some seeds from Burpee for .99cents a pkg.(last year anyway) They grow like the dickens. I think I better get over there and pick up what I need.

This is like the victory gardens from WWII.
Never thought I'd see the day.

[silverweb]

72. My son told me this.

He works in disaster preparedness/management and public health.

I asked him last year what I should be doing as "my part" and he said, "Learn to grow food. Seriously, Mom: Learn to grow food."

I'm working on it, but not nearly fast enough. Potable water is our other looming problem.

[pitohui]

150. i would question what growing food has to do w. disaster preparedness

things we learned from katrina, when you have to evacuate and run from your life from a disaster, guess what, your house and your fridge full of food, and your cupboard full of food is not coming with you

at the end of the day, our society has money for a reason, because in times of disaster, it's a disaster BECAUSE you can't get to your house, farm, stash...

growing food is a fun hobby, sometimes it saves money, other times it costs money -- it's a respectable form of gambling

it has fuck all to do w. disaster preparedness

the thing in japan happened in their winter, but if it had happened in april (as did chernobyl) they would still be without food because food grows outdoors and gets exposed when the atmosphere is contaminated, or food grows outdoors and get washed away when the world is washed away

food is big, it takes up space

we can't horde food, not really...the private approach, hoarding, gives a feeling of control but i don't think it's a true solution

my opinion only

i still enjoy growing food but having a garden did fuck all for me in a real disaster, i hope you will agree that katrina was a pretty big one...

[silverweb]

156. It all helps.

When crops are failing or being destroyed in various places, that affects supply in other areas, too. Having an independent supply of at least some food items through gardening can help fill the gap.

If my neighbors are lacking and I'm growing things, I can help them, and the more people are growing their own, the more they are able to help themselves and others. Call it a decentralization of the food supply.

Disasters come large and small, in lots of forms, and the more people who are at least partially self sufficient the better.

[DeadEyeDyck]

77. K&R

Havw fun with those Hybrid seeds

[FailureToCommunicate]

85. Too bad the rain is going to be (once again) radioactive...

But that's okay, we'll just feed the chickens feed from Monsatan. And water in a greenhouse with city water they say is "safe"...

(Sorry, feeling a little cynical here in (still winter) NewEngland)


PS: I DO like gardening, and think every kid ought to know how. (Loved Michelle Obama's WH garden initiative!!

[demigoddess]

87. victory gardens ----again!!

wish I could.

[robertpaulsen]

91. Please watch this relevant video.

I haven't read all the comments on this thread, so I'm not sure if someone has posted this yet, but it's part of The Nation's series “Peak Oil and a Changing Climate” just released today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBViL8gOaLU

[silverweb]

107. Bookmarked for this evening.

Thanks! :)

[malaise]

93. We have lovely tomatoes, romaine lettuce, parsley and

hot peppers right now.

[silverweb]

142. Question about romaine.

I cut up the base of a finished head of romaine and tossed the pieces in my worm bin, and one of the pieces started to root. Do you know if romaine can actually be propagated in this way? I've planted a few more pieces in some moist potting soil, but nothing seems to be happening yet.

[malaise]

143. I've never tried it but I'll ask some folks

with more experience than hubby and I. It's a gorgeous lettuce.

[silverweb]

158. Thanks!

If you can't find out, don't worry about it. I imagine my little experiment will tell me in one way or another eventually.

[Change has come]

174. You can keep a head of Romain growing for months

Just harvest about a third of the plant at a time. New leaves will quickly replace what you cut. You can continue until the plant goes to seed or the heat causes it to bolt.

[silverweb]

175. Fantastic!

If these new pieces root and start growing, I'll have four plants to harvest from. :woohoo:

Thanks so much!

[Bluenorthwest]

227. Romain and other

lettuces can be grown in lovely hanging baskets, harvested by taking leaves and letting the rest grow on. They look great as well.

[eridani]

206. Sounds like what happens with celery

It used to be common to cut the stalks off and put the rest in the ground, where it would root. Never heard of romaine doing that, but it's certainly worth a try to see what happens.

[silverweb]

269. Makes sense.

I don't use much celery, but maybe the neighbors do. If I have an extra pot, I might it try with celery. :)

[Taverner]

94. This explains why Shapiro was so against community gardens

And why Monsanto lobbies congress to make home farming 'illegal'

[beac]

126. When the time comes,

Monsanto executives should be the first ingredient in Soylent Green.

[glinda]

184. That's funny!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[ProudDad]

96. The next step is to TAKE BACK THE COMMONS

Enclosing public resources as "private property" was the genesis of the zero sum game...

Take back OUR COMMUNITY PROPERTY from the thieves who stole it from us...

[cottonseed]

196. You're Native American?

[ProudDad]

263. Nope, I'm working class...

on edit: and you need to study some history...

Start by googling the "Enclosure Movement" and "Rents" and "The Diggers" and "The Luddites"...

[xloadiex]

97. I can't wait to start

I have a small garden but also grow in pots. I usually wind up with so much I wind up giving most of it away to needy families in the neighborhood. I did 4 kinds of peppers in pots last year and it was a bumper crop. Pepper plants don't get that big either.

[OwnedByFerrets]

98. Oh STFU and pay your damn taxes so we can buy more cruise missles.

[Redford]

99. I grow all of my summer vegetables

and a good portion of my winter vegetables on my 15 acres. I planted lots of fruit trees and nut trees, grapes and berries. What I don't eat, can, or dehydrate I give to the local food bank which is about 95% of what I grow. I have always felt that self sufficiency is important in this ever changing world but it is important to be charitable to those who cannot grow food themselves.

[felix_numinous]

100. +1000

I second using heirloom variety seeds, they will seed themselves or you can let the plants go to seed or use the seeds from the veggies. In many communities farms will deliver groceries too, and if you buy organic produce, you can save the seeds off many veggies and plant them, and plant your favorite potatoes.

Probably you already know this stuff though! :) you cool people~

[Redford]

101. I grow all of my summer vegetables

and a good portion of my winter vegetables on my 15 acres. I planted lots of fruit trees and nut trees, grapes and berries. What I don't eat, can, or dehydrate I give to the local food bank which is about 95% of what I grow. I have always felt that self sufficiency is important in this ever changing world but it is important to be charitable to those who cannot grow food themselves.

[LittleGirl]

103. Agreed. i bought the Sq. Ft. Gardening book last year

and hope to expand my 'pot' garden to actual 'land' garden this year. I didn't get to plant early enough when we moved in last spring so I hope to expand. I hurt my shoulder from shoveling after the ice storm here in Indy in February so need my nephew to come over and dig out the area where I've staked out my garden. I would have it done last fall but after last summer's drought, the ground was like cement. Bugs ate my green beans but I had good peppers and tomatoes. Basil grew like a weed.

Someone mentioned that their plants didn't produce much and the heat will do that. Can you move those plants to an area that is shaded? Some plants stop producing when the overnight temperature stay above 70 degrees. My peppers did that and then when the nights cooled, they started producing again. I can't wait to be outside all day again. I get serious cabin fever in the winter.

Thanks for the links! Very helpful.

[pecwae]

105. Doing just that.

Been tilling up several areas in my and my neighbor's yard that get enough sun for vegetables. Planted 3 year old blueberries last year. Have the canning and freeze drying equipment all set. As soon as the ground warms up enough seeds and seedlings (started last month inside) will be going in.

[Blue_In_AK]

108. I've had a garden for 20 years.

The only problem is it only produces in the summer and you can't freeze lettuce. Maybe the crawl space garden will have to be converted to vegetables. :hippie:

[FedUpWithIt All]

109. Can i just add the phrases "No-Till" and "Integrated"

:hi:

Great post btw.

I wholeheartedly agree with it. We've been working toward greater food sufficiency ourselves.

[Auntie Bush]

110. Thanks...I just ordered some seeds.

I was going to buy some so this will save me some money. Hope they come soon so I can get them started.

[northernlights]

111. The Resilient Gardener by Carol Depp

strongly recommended, esp for those in the Pacific Northwest. Also 4 Season Harvest by Eliott Coleman for New Englanders.

I already harvest and freeze raspberries, apples, sometimes peaches, and strawberries. I'll be growing multiple kinds of winter and summer squash, a couple kinds of corn, green and drying beans, a couple types of potatoes, along with the usual greens and tomatoes, etc.

I started solar cooking last summer, mostly crockpot type foods. This year, I'm adding another style of solar oven for breads.

And I'll be experimenting with solar dehydrating, weather permitting, or will add in electric dehydrating if the weather is noncompliant.

And a few hens for eggs.

My goal is as much "free" food and energy as possible, including the staples.

[fascisthunter]

112. "I Support this Message!"

[ipaint]

113. Gardens are great but they aren't going to save the perpetually comfortable

property owning middle class (or anyone else) from the ravages of peak oil and peak greed.

Too many have-nots will be looking to survive. Those gardens aren't going to last long.

We save ourselves by saving those at the very bottom first and working our way up, certainly not by starting in the cushy middle, otherwise it's just one more version of reagan's "I got mine" trickle down bullshit.
The rich have stolen the nation's wealth. Until that problem is addressed and the resulting violence and poverty is dealt with that cute house on 10 acres with gorgeous garden just makes you a real easy target.

[rhett o rick]

115. I agree. But we must do all we can even if it is futile. nm

[AllyCat]

118. I've been giving copies of my favorite organic gardening book to people trying to start their own

We are seriously screwed as a culture when we cannot feed ourselves with our own soil. The secret to our home garden is our compost pile. We grew so much last year, I donated to our local food co-op and the pantry. And this is a small yard that we designed to have small space gardening for a family of four.

[MuseRider]

127. Year #3 with our 2500 sq ft garden.

I can, freeze, cellar and dry everything I can. Not only is it better food for you, it tastes better than the crap they try to get you to accept at the stores. The added benefit is that it is good, honest hard work and your body will thank you for it. Sweat and hard labor at times followed by meals without the HFCS and other additives and a store room full of safe food that you can take pride in.

We need to learn to live with the seasons. I am loathe to give up oranges but they do not grow well here in Kansas. The footprint that transporting all of that across the globe is just too huge to make my longing anything but selfish. If I can't grow lettuces under a light in the sun room I will not eat it in the winter. That is my next step. To live with mostly only what I can get here locally that is grown either by me or a local farmer. Don't know if I can do it but I will try.

You can use almost anything to plant in and what you can't you can get at the farmers market. The parts of it that are hard and suck (no oranges) are far outweighed by the benefit to our planet and not supporting the ruination of it.

Gardening When It Counts by Steve Soloman is a good book to start with.

[bvar22]

146. We are also unable to grow citrus :(

Its too cold in Zone 7 (Central Arkansas).
So we have compensated with a bunch of different Berries & Grapes.

I've heard that Satsumas (Mandarin Orange) can withstand brief low temps down to 25,
and the tree itself is small. I fantasize about a couple of Satsuma trees in a small green house,
or even a temporary Winter tent with a small electric heater (light bulbs?).
I believe it is possible, if I can ever find the time to try it.

[MuseRider]

246. Hey bvar22!

I am starting blueberries and Pilgrim cranberries this year. I am not a huge berry fan but I do have a sun room that we have thought about planting some small lemon and lime trees in with my wintering Plumeria (a vice I will not be able to give up).

Oooh I like your idea about the tent. Those heater lights work really well in a small area, we heat the goat shed with one and they stay pretty toasty with it.

I remember seeing old TV shows or movies where the farm kids got an orange in their stocking and it was a big deal to them. Now I think I know why. :-)

Planting my first asparagus bed this year. Any advice except patience?

[bvar22]

262. Delayed gratification certainly applies to Asparagus,

but it is worth the wait.

The only advice I have is to plant it along a garden border or fence line.
It grows over 6' tall, and is very thick and lacy (fern like).
It will grow for years & years, so pick your spot carefully, because that is where it is going to stay.

I had no idea that it would grow this tall and thick.
I really thought it would grow in little clumps about the size I saw in the stores (LOL),
so we put ours in a 4' X 10' raised box in the middle of our garden where it is sorta in the way most of the time.
I would prefer it to be in a long, skinny (2' wide) bed along a fence line.

It IS a beautiful plant, and ours has been really low maintenance.
We've had no pest or fungal problems....just give it a little water and watch it grow.
In Winter, we cut the stalks down to 1" above ground level, and top dress with compost & mulch....
and wait.

Harvesting is bizarre, and accompanied by "This is SO wrong" feelings.
With Asparagus, you harvest the very first spears that emerge in the Spring on the 3rd season (no harvest the first two), and continue to do so for several weeks (OMG!).
I know of no other veggies where this is the routine.
This is our first harvest year, and I still keep thinking "This can't be right" as we cut the early spears.

Glad to hear you are doing well.
We are also excited about this year.
We are adding another fenced section for more more Berries, Beans, Grapes, Melons, and Corn.
The new section will be the more traditional raised rows.
We discovered that it is really difficult to grow enough Corn & Watermelons in Raised Boxes..LOL.
:hi:

[MuseRider]

275. Thanks so much

I was thinking about putting it in near the house where I am making a herb garden but I think it would be way too tall there. I had no idea it got that tall! Congratulations on your first harvest. It must taste just wonderful!

I am seriously considering putting in more garden space. I would love to grow some grains and some dry beans but since I do not have a plow it would mean hiring again. Not a big deal but kinda a big deal. My mid sized tractor would handle the rest and I certainly have enough horse manure to take care of that part. Our garden space is off the small woods close to the house. It took us a lot of days to get the fence up just right and if it were not for the moles who think now they will live here (the whole farm is suffering) we would have no predators at all. Not counting the Japanese Beetle...and the Hornworms.....ICK!

Have you read "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle" by Barbara Kingsolver? I think you would like it. They made a plan for eating almost entirely off of what they could grow and raise and slaughter themselves. Great info stuck in the middle of it all.

Putting in major flower beds this year myself so we are late getting our seed planted, way later than before. Our first Lemon and Early Russian Cucumbers just poked their heads out today. I am certainly hoping for better garden weather. 3rd year on the garden now, should be a good one if we don't drown or bake to death.

I suppose this conversation belongs more in the gardening forum so I will stop. See you on the garden forum :hi:

[Retrograde]

259. Citrus do produce fruit in pots

Meyer lemons are hardy down to the high 20s - mine regularly survives mild frosts. Around here (Bay Area) people cover tender plants with sheets when there's a frost warning, which usually helps. I'm looking for a similar solution for some of my sub-tropicals which are getting too big to move indoors every winter.

[InvisibleTouch]

129. Totally agree.

We are going to see the collapse of civilization as we know it in our lifetimes. Of that I am certain. I try to impress upon friends and family that we need to utilize the resources we have *now* to prepare ourselves for that. (And I shake my head that they get so worked up about totally irrelevant things like a scratch on their car's paint or the way their lawn looks - when we are looking at 11:59 on the countdown and will soon be worried about real problems.) Most think I'm nuts and just keep going on about their blind lives. But as I tell them, even if the collapse *doesn't* happen as I think it will, I'll still be set up for self-sufficiency and far better off than I would have been otherwise.

[r54w32]

130. Best gardening book ever!

This man taught me how to grow my own food on two 4'X20' raised bed gardens.This book is wonderful training for any novice.You can probably get Video Tapes of the P.B.S. series at some libraries.

http://www.amazon.com/Crocketts-Victory-Garden-Underwood-Crockett/dp/0316161217?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204079554&sr=1-1

[chriscruzan]

131. Lost my job last May

One of the first things I did was sign up for the Master Gardener program in my county. After 10 years of toiling for the wealthy, I needed to return to my agro roots. I am currently growing 5 different lettuces, radish, carrots ,beets and spinach in 6" pvc tubes,10 foot long with my own organic soilless mix and a gravity fed water system. My set up is based on wheelchair access as the tubes can be raised or lowered according to need.I have produced 3 harvests this winter and can get about 1 lb of greens per foot of tube. I am very fortunate to have a garage, let alone one with some extra space. I have been able to supply approximately 12 people with enough baby greens for several meals a month this winter. I am currently taking classes thru the S.A.R.E. program on small farm organic production and small farm business management. (Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education) I believe this is a national program and they do offer grant monies for people trying to do sustainable agriculture research. This certainly applies to urban growers, as well. I would suggest to anyone wanting info regarding sustainable agriculture to visit the Purdue University Extension site. Purdue University serves as the research repository for all the AG universities across the country (.https://mdc.itap.purdue.edu) This should get you there and the amount of available FREE info is overwhelming. If you always give 20% of your harvest to those in need, the world will be a better place.

[Lifelong Protester]

166. That is so cool!

Thanks for the sharing.

[glinda]

185. Wow. I am impressed! Good job.

[blueamy66]

228. Can you post a pic of your garden?

I would love to see it!

[BrklynLiberal]

133. I am sending this to everyone I know

[haydukelives]

135. started a garden

last year, first one in decades.
good advice

[harun]

136. Couple of gardening books I recommend, for those interested

http://www.amazon.com/New-Self-Sufficient-Gardener-John-Seymour/dp/0756628989/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1301532666&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Vegetables-Berries-Thought-Possible-Imagine/dp/1580087965/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1301532685&sr=1-1

Also if you don't think you have space look for (or start) a community garden:

http://communitygarden.org/

Also some Youtube channels to subscribe to:

http://www.youtube.com/user/webcajun
http://www.youtube.com/user/growingyourgreens
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCompostGuy
http://www.youtube.com/user/horticulturalchannel

[FailureToCommunicate]

164. The Self Sufficient Gardener by Seymour was a favorite of mine in

the 1970's and still great!
Thanks for the memory, harun.

[harun]

230. It's a real treasure and very affordable.

Great illustrations and solid advice.

[Plucketeer]

139. Two and a half acres in California's central valley

We've been gardening BIG TIME since we moved here. Being as how we have pretty mild winters, we have something growin' year round. Then there's the ten or so stonefruit trees, pomegranate bushes and 40-some citrus trees. We sell some and give some to the local food banks.

We also do vermiculture (grow worms for the soil-enhancing poop they produce. It's SO easy and the worms eat our garbage! Even cardboard and newspapers - they love it. You don't need any fancy containers or worm hotels like you can spend money for. You could do it in plastic buckets - you can even do it in a heap on the ground! The type of worms used will STAY where the garbage is - not take off into the earth. Heck - you can even SELL the "castings" they produce.

As to the crops we raise, we can, freeze and dry stuff. We haven't bought a can of tomatoes or pastas sauce in decades! We make our own from what we grow.

Get Growin'!

[chriscruzan]

140. Castings are great

I have been using castings in my soilless mix. Combined with some fish emulsion from my tanks and my greens need nothing else thru maturity.

[Melinda]

235. Where in central CA? Kings County here. :)

[Plucketeer]

253. Just north of Visalia.

Amongst groves of walnuts and oranges. Sad to say - it's a very RED section of a progressive state. But that's OK too. I love sending ugly mail to our non-representative in DC. The dishonoroable Devin Nunes - puppet of the corporate farmers.

[Melinda]

256. Corporate farmers... gotta luv em. Boswell is a monster.

We hope to eventually raise worms too... Mother Earth is amazing!

One of the reasons we started the collective garden in this area is because of Boswell and Co. After this area lost funding for a free local produce program for the disadvantaged called "Nutrition on the Go", Boswell stepped in and agreed to fund 6 months if they could choose where the produce was distributed. And of course Boswell wiped the poorest areas of their distribution map. Imagine that... the poorest and hungriest among us getting stepped over by corporate farming. :wtf: It truly boggles the mind.

Anyway, nice to meet you neighbor. And thanks for all you do for the least among us. :hug:

[geardaddy]

241. We have worms, too!

We have two bins in our apt. Someone else we know does it and they call the worms collectively "Kevin."

[Plucketeer]

250. Can't say that we've named ours yet

Not unless "Amazing" qualifies as a name. Course, I gave my old truck a name years ago, so why not the worms? ;)

[Melinda]

254. ooh, nvmnd... you did respond above, ty!!

[JackInGreen]

141. K and R

renewable starts at home, and given that the 'powers that be' can't seem to manage shit without letting the moneymen get in the way, independence starts at home as well :D

[pitohui]

145. then "you" will die, not enough calories to support life in garden herbs and veggies

when i "gardened" for survival, there were chickens involved, without fat and protein, you're wasting your time

most people's garden is a hobby, for flavor -- it is herbs and veggies, the low calorie kind, like lettuce, bell pepper, tomatoes

you cannot sustain life on that, raising the food takes more calories than you can produce

you are supposedly addressing a crowd that needs to garden to survive, the crowd that can't feed itself by paying a few bucks a day at the grocery store SURE AS HELL can't afford to buy all that's needed to put in a raised garden and to buy soil, nutrition(fertilizer) and so on

the secret ingredient is the chicken, it eats crap and insects (if you can let her roam) and it produces good protein plus a good manure which can be aged to feed your garden, but most places where people actually live don't allow legal chickens

[chriscruzan]

157. You are correct

Chickens not only provide needed fertilizer and protein, they can provide heat for your greenhouse. My Grandfather started raising rabbits, after the first Great Depression, because chickens were too expensive. He continued to raise fryer rabbits until his death in 1987. I remember eating rabbit, persimmon pudding and dandelion salad all grown on his little farm when I was young. We would have an orange Crush for desert.

[silverweb]

207. “Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.”

Wise words. Not all of us find it necessary to eat chicken or other meats for protein, either.

Grains and legumes may not be very practical for small home gardens, but they can be purchased in bulk and have a long shelf life if stored properly.

Mainly, we each should do what we can. That's why I like my sig line below. :)

[Dorian Gray]

215. I wish I had a green thumb

because I love those Heirloom tomatoes. Now I rely on Fairway or Whole Foods to buy them at exhorbitant prices once a year for a special treat.

A friend of mine grows them in her garden in San Jose, CA. I doubt she could survive a disaster on them, though.

[blueamy66]

225. I want chickens!!!

But my neighbors won't allow it. :-(

Per my city code, they have to say it's okay, and they told me NO. They are like family, so I wasn't too hurt...but I would love the insect control and the eggs!!

[bvar22]

151. I watched "The Prophets of Doom" last week.

...a grim History Channel special.
I recommend it if you haven the chance.
It is a Roundtable with 5 experts discussing various scenarios for our future.
While they all had their favorite scenarios of how the coming collapse will happen (Peak Oil, No Clean Water, Terrorism, worldwide economic collapse, etc.) they ALL agreed that we need to Decentralize & Localize our food production.

[jwirr]

153. My daughter watched that. By any chance did someone on that

program predict that in 2100 all of the US would be under water from melting ice - all except Kansas? My other daughters husband saw that.

[bvar22]

270. You know, I don't remember if that was on "The Prophets of Doom".

I HAVE recently seen map of what will flood if the glaciers in Greenland and Antarctica melt,
and was relieved to see that our place in West/Central Arkansas (Ouachita Mtns) will be close to the shores of the Great Mississippi River Bay.

The concerns from the "experts" on the panel of "The Prophets of Doom" that I remember were:

1)World Wide Economic Collapse

2)Shortage of Clean Water, forcing a World Wide Economic Collapse (already in early stages west of the Mississippi River)

3)Terrorist detonation of a Nuclear device in a major (or multiple) American City...forcing a World Wide Economic collapse. They agreed that this is only a matter of time....sooner rather than later.

4)Peak Oil...forcing a World Wide Economic Collapse.

I really don't remember a discussion of the glaciers melting, but if the current trends continue, that will certainly be another concern.

We are NOT "survivalists", and avoiding The Big Crunch was not a factor in our decision to move to The Woods and start growing our own food. We are Old Hippies, and are attracted to the sustainable lifestyle. We pray a Big Crunch doesn't happen, since that would only make things harder on us too.

[jwirr]

276. Thank you - our family is a mixture of old hippie (me) and survivalist. nt

[HillWilliam]

154. I live within an hour-and-a-half drive from the author

I live just above the Triad in Caswell County (yup, there are gays in the back-of-beyond). We've had a pretty good garden ever since we moved out of GSO. I figured this year was going to be tight as hell (especially since I got laid off a couple of weeks ago), so I expanded our garden to 55'x70' and have a smaller garden up front that's about 20'x50'. I'm growing a lot of heirloom stuff this year; greasy beans, speckled peas, peter peppers, candyroasters, and tons of tomatoes. We've been using green-as-possible methods, recycling green and brown matter, being frugal and wise with the water.

We've been studying on this for quite a few years. My partner and I were brought up in the Blue Ridge mountains, used to old-time, sustainable methods. Much of what is being "discovered" now was considered proper and responsible where we grew up. Green and sustainable aren't just fashionable; they're most economical year after year.

[Esurientes]

260. Can I come down and buy some from you?

(I live in Danville, just ~ 15 miles north.)

I like to play with gardening but have minimal success -- my plans to expand my 4'-diameter raised garden this year were thwarted because WalMart no longer carries the preformed circle model I bought last year for $18.97. The one they sell now is four feet square and $28.97. Yes, it's prettier, but it doesn't match.

The only successes I had last year were tomatoes and romaine. Squash and brussels sprouts never produced.

[HillWilliam]

284. C'mon down! You're only 1/2 hour away

We're in Danville all the time, since it's closer than Burlington or Hillsborough. Right now we've got a ton of plants in Hardees cups inside, getting ready to set out late in April. We should have lettuce aplenty up by then -- more than we can handle if it all takes. It won't be long until there are spring onions. Every southerner knows that the most hella salad ever made was baby lettuce with spring onions chopped up and hot bacon grease drizzled over it -- AND a chunk of hot buttered cornbread on the side *LOL*

Mid summer we should have greasybeans and speckled peas. I'm hoping that the kiwi fruit will make this year. It'll be this year or next.

Shoot me a PM. Come say howdy!

[Canuckistanian]

155. Somebody once calculated

That if the earth were the size of a basketball, the atmosphere would be the thickness of a piece of paper.

And the thickness of arable soil would be ONE ATOM thick.

We have to look after it. It's the only thing keeping us alive.

[upi402]

162. Great post

We're already composting and gardening. Got a rice farm available that we're looking at relocating to - not in the USA.

None of mankind's glorious achievements would have happened, if not for a few inches of topsoil.

[cottonseed]

195. I didn't know the post said to buy a rice farm with an inflated US dollar from an impoverished natio

[upi402]

201. bought it?

not me

and i usually don't obey OP's very well anyway

but you're welcome to try again

[Corruption Winz]

163. Thankfully, I already garden...

However, this is obviously troubling. What else can we do? Let's get ready to get our hands dirty...

[JDPriestly]

170. Great information!

[mochajava666]

173. I couldn't agree more

Rec

[uppityperson]

179. gardening and buying local save a lot of gas

the less you have to transport things, the less fuel they take.

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lucian]

180. I'd be better off hunting and gathering than gardening.

[cottonseed]

191. You'd be better off buying food from the grocery store and forgetting your silly fantasy.

Sorry to tell you this, but we're not going back to individual farms on some prairie and hunting and gathering.

[Dappleganger]

242. Depending upon where you live...

it could be a viable food solution. Where we used to live in VA in Shenandoah county, deer hunters were everywhere and if you had good stuff to trade they were more than happy to share their dressed goods with you. At that time we lived way out in the middle of nowhere and I was more than happy to trade babysitting, reading lessons and GRE tutoring for venison, chickens, eggs, pork, beef and any kind of veggies and apples. You're right, not everyone is either able or is skilled at farming but most folks can do something in order to trade and get the food they needed.

Plus, were blessed with farming friends who just GAVE abundantly. When it was harvesting or canning time, we were in the other's kitchens helping and we never left empty-handed. Nobody kept a list of who gave what, we figured it all worked out one way or the other.

[DebJ]

181. You are right and that's why I am so concerned because if

hubby gets pink-slipped this summer (1 in 4 teachers to be laid off), we won't have a yard in which to garden....

[NCarolinawoman]

182. I grew green peppers and string beans in my spare bedroom all winter long.

You can put string bean plants in hanging baskets in front of windows and they just trail down instead of growing upward.

All you have to do to pollinate green peppers is lightly touch each blossom.

In my opinion, both of these plants are attractive as any houseplants.

You need a room that preferably gets south, south/east, and southwest sunlight.

[roody]

188. I am planting more peas tomorrow.

My yard is full of fava bean plants in full bloom.

[cottonseed]

189. If every person in this country subscribed to your fantasy of producing their own food.

There would be an environmental disaster worse than any industrial accident we've experienced so far. Of course, crippling rises in the price of food and mass starvation would change everyone's minds before we got that far.

Seriously, go out to a large agricultural area, look around at the infrastructure that goes into it, water delivery, large equipment and processing facilities, huge swaths of land... think about the millions of people that that feeds. Then think about each of those millions of people spending their productive energies on somehow trying to feed themselves for 365 days a year by doing it themselves in their backyards.

We've gotten so far from the days of large scale agriculture that we're just stupid enough to think we can go back while sustaining our current living conditions.

[Melinda]

234. one 4'x8' raised bed can feed a family of four all their veggie needs for 350 days a yr here in CA

32 sq feet is all it takes. I wish the author of the OP's post had included more information about collective or community gardening, but since it's missing as of now, one of us (or more!) should step up and more completely explain how sq foot/raised bed/community gardening works.

I live in one of the poorest counties in CA, and work for a non profit social services agency in one of the most socio-economically depressed areas in the town seat (unemployment is 36%). Working with Master Gardeners from the UC Extension program and donations from vendors, we have started a collective garden this year, with plans to become a fully fleshed sustainable community garden next year. We are teaching sq foot gardening, creating raised beds for little to nothing, composting, pruning, pest control, water conservation, reducing individual carbon footprints, etc. We are reclaiming fruit and nut trees. And we can and are doing this for almost nothing. We welcome all help, there are jobs for all, and no one is turned away.

This isn't about large scale agricultural and sustaining current living conditions... it's the exact opposite in fact. The only thing the two have in common is the word "sustain". The movement (and it is indeed a movement) is all about sustainable use of resources and how we can transition from buying expensive ( or going without) food to producing individual or collective/community based gardening.

This topic and thread are very important. There is much to be shared and learned here, and I intend to come back and DU-Wiki the heck out of this subject matter as I can. And I think I'll double post too.
:)

[Le Taz Hot]

238. +1

From another DUer from a depressed California area. I started square foot gardening several years ago and, in that I'm in the Central Valley with no perma-frost, am able to harvest something all year around. Keep posting on this subject, please. It's muy important. :hi:

[Melinda]

244. Howdy Fresno neighbor :-)

I grew up in Fresno, and raised my family there. I'm in Hanford now, and loving small town life... we actually do have that "community" feel here that Fresno no longer holds for me.

The area of Hanford that we are developing our collective/community garden in has 486 families (just less than 1500 people). These are families with children and others who are "food insecure"... often times the only meals children have are at school, or the elderly/disabled at nutrition centers, meals-on-wheels, homeless, unemployed and underemployed at soup kitchens, food banks, etc, so we are that much more determined to affect positive change thru our garden program. There is simply no reason why children (or the elderly, disabled, homeless, unemployed, etc) in our communities should be hungry. Imagine how many we could feed and teach to become self-sufficient through education? I am very excited about this subject, and am thrilled to know that you and so many others are as well. Together we WILL do this!!

:hug:

[Le Taz Hot]

249. Another Valleyite???

I think that makes four of us on DU. I love Hanford -- it always reminded me of Mayberry.

This year I'm determined to start a neighborhood coop and gardening will be a major part of that. I'd like to hold seminars on small-space gardening and I'm currently writing a book on home canning. My ULTIMATE dream is to start a square foot gardening project at our neighborhood grammar school. If I can get donations for equipment I can easily write lesson plans that will satisfy grade-appropriate core-level curriculum and will include excellent cognitive rigor because it's hands-on. The students can then share the bounty and, if set up on drip irrigation and timers, will reduce the area the gardening staff must mow (lawns -- a COMPLETE waste of space and water).

It really is amazing how much produce one can grow in a surprisingly small area. We have 3-square foot gardens in the back yard plus I grow a TON of things in pots -- mostly tomatoes and peppers. I started an extensive herb garden several years ago and, besides yielding tons of fresh herbs, it serves as one of my "pondering spots" in the back yard. This year I'm taking some of the flowers out in the front yard and planting squash plants to increase my growing space. We grow way more than we can use and I give away the rest to people I know who are struggling.

Glad you "outted" yourself! ;-) :hug:

[Retrograde]

291. It's not an either/or proposition

There is no way I'm going to be able to feed two people on the produce from the 30% of my small city lot that isn't covered by structures or pavement. However, I have space for tomatoes and if the weather cooperates I'll have enough to can for at least part of the winter. Herbs are pretty foolproof here, and my lemon tree provides enough fruit to supply the block. I've got some volunteer miner's lettuce that's almost over for the season. I can't grow enough beans for what I need, and rice and grains are right out, but I've gotten a couple of meals out of my 4'X4' bean plot.

What this thread boils down do, it seems, is that people who like to garden will find a way to do it, and people who don't will find reasons not to. Neither side is necessarily right or wrong: if you can be self-sufficient or nearly so, good for you. If you can't, that's why there are professional farmers and grocery stores.

No excuse me while I go out to harvest my strawberry (singular), assuming the birds didn't get it this morning.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

199. Your County Extension Agent is your friend.

There are County Ag agents and County Home Demonstration Agents. Free information about all kinds of ag/household management stuff, and they will have an office in your county seat.

There are lots of people around here with ag/horticulture degreees from Stephen F. Austin State, Sam Houston State, and Texas A&M.

My grandparents were County Agents in Mississippi (They got Master's Degrees from Mississippi A&M) after World War I, and moved to Texas and became County Agents in Texas. My grandmother retired as a County Home Demonstration agent (Home Economist) in 1962. She worked for the Texas A&M Extension System for 30 years.

They know an awful lot about raising flowers, crops, cattle, soil nutrients and all that stuff.
Grandmother would can plums and peaches in Mason jars. I remember the boiling pots, and the Sepra-Sieve. Mom wasn't nearly that energetic, but she did make some wonderful plum preserves. I like plums and prunes.

I have two little plum trees on my back acre that I bought a few months ago, and I am looking forward to the day when they produce. Another grandpa (Grandma's third husband--she outlived three of them & they are all planted in a row next to her in the family plot :rofl: ) had the largest plum orchard in the world, back in the 50s, with 7,000 Bruce plum trees in East Texas. It got wiped out by a freak ice storm in the early 50s. He also raised White Faced Herefords and Black Angus. I was a city kid and I asked them why they didn't milk their cows so they would be able to make ice cream!!!

[Grinchie]

202. You should be aware that others will be watching

In the past month, in my neck of the woods, Hawaii, farmers and agriculturists have been seeing an increase in agricultural thefts. This is an issue, because this is the ultimate betrayal in our society, the lack of security when it comes to law enforcement in regards to food crops.

The laws exist, but they are not really enforced.

While I am not trying to dissuade anyone from growing food, I am informing those less knowledgable about farming and crops that they are a definitive target for thieves. Don't make it easy for thieves.

I'm talking about Taro, Green Beans, Coconuts, Palms, Citrus, Banana's and other crops.

I operate a good sized farm and I am constantly patrolling and keeping an eye on things. The best thing I did was invest in a fence last year, because anyone on the wrong side knows they are going to get put through the ringer if I catch them.

While I thought that Soylent Green was fiction, especially the part where Sol says the the farms are like fortresses, but I hate to say it but we are seeing the necessities of protecting the farm from marauding souls in search of profit or food. On my farm however, the food is spread out all over and it's not as easy as walking down a row of grapes and taking your fill. Harvest takes planning and travel by foot, and that keeps the crops generally safe.

One thing that has been bugging me lately.. I have lots of food growing, and then I wake up one morning to hear that the radiation has caused crops to be destroyed due to contamination. Talk about a fucked up deal. Here you go to the trouble of growing some food and some nuclear particle comes along and embeds itself into the plant. It just goes to show how quickly a nucler tragedy can seep into the ecosphere and taint a wide range of resources to the point where it's a 50/50 chance of contamination and poisoning.

Even if not contaminated with nuclear fallout, be aware that in urban setting, millions of tons of tire dust are generated along the roadways by cars every. This dust is loaded with heavy metals and chemicals, but nobody ever gives it any thought. Heres something that will clarify it for many. Tires wear out, and they do this by shedding minute particles onto the pavement, which gets kicked up into the air, and into yur lungs and onto the leaves of plants. Then count the number of cars going doing a road per day and multiply by 4, then multiply by 365.

Time to get a greenhouse I suppose.

[Butch350]

212. more Food for Thought...

Do we also pen some cows and pigs for meat and milk. We can all go over to the neighbors this weekend for
some football and animal slaughtering.

[Vinca]

213. We've had huge gardens for the last 30 years.

Yesterday, while having my first physical therapy session after a hip replacement, the therapist asked what my goals were and the first thing out of my mouth was "to garden." There's nothing like the first spinach salad in the spring. To anyone who currently gardens, I have 2 words for you: ground cherries. I discovered them 5 years ago and now can't live without them.

[Sabriel]

268. Where do you get ground cherry seeds, Vinca? n/t

[Vinca]

285. I forget where I bought them the first year, but they are sold by several sites.

We have a great local farm that sells uncommon plants, so I've been buying seedlings instead. If you buy seeds, the Aunt Molly variety is the tastiest IMHO. I tried one other kind that was billed as tasting like pineapples, but I wasn't impressed. The only problem with them is they don't freeze well. They're best fresh. I've been known to go out to the garden for veggies and spend half the time eating them off the plants.

[glowing]

217. Garden is in... The real thing is re-learning freezing and canning and preserving for the

Winter months.

[Remmah2]

219. Couple of additions

We grow herbs and tomatoes in deck pots. Good for people in apartments or with less land. (Urban gardening.) I've also grown onions in deck pots too, right in w/the herbs. Leaf lettuce also grows good in deck pots. (My old life style).

Also a food dryer will help preserve the harvest late into the winter for those that grow a decent surplus. A vacuum sealer is nice if you can afford one but not necessary.

Finally, if you can throw in an "extra" tomato plant or zucchini plant, the local soup kitchen will really appreciate fresh produce. Every little bit helps.

[Yavin4]

220. If My Life Depends on Gardening, Then I'll Just Have To Die

Gardening, or rather individual farming, is hard, back breaking, and very dangerous work. It's not practical to have everyone keep their own gardens. In fact, it's a primitivism fantasy.

[blueamy66]

224. I don't know Yavin4.

We have 3 raised beds. We bought the "Lincoln Logs" at Home Depot, had them cut them and stacked them 5 high. Yeah, it took a bit of work to drill holes and then nail the logs together, but with 2 of us, it wasn't too bad.

We bought great soil, manure and do a bit of composting.

Now we just watch the plants grow. Can't wait for the tomatoes!

The veggies are awesome.

Another thing....we have 2 neighbors that have fruit trees and we have an open invitation to pick as we like. And we give small gifts in return. Kinda like a co-op, ya know?

I don't understand the "dangerous" part of gardening. Can you please elaborate a bit? Thx

[Yavin4]

232. Well, That's You. Not Everyone

The Khmer Rougue thought it was a good idea to change the entire urban population into peasant farmers. The results were one of the worst human catastrophes known to man.

[blueamy66]

258. WHAT?

We're talking about gardens in the USA, aren't we?

[Name removed]

233. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Melinda]

237. One 4'x8' raised bed can produce enough veggies to feed a family of four 350 days a yr in CA:

32 sq feet is all it takes. I wish the author had included more information about collective or community gardening, but since it's missing as of now, one of us (or more!) should step up and more completely explain how sq foot and raised bed gardening works.

I live in one of the poorest counties in CA, and work for a non profit social services agency in one of the most socio-economically depressed areas in the town seat (unemployment is 36%). Working with Master Gardeners from the UC Extension program and donations from vendors, we have started a collective garden this year, with plans to become a fully fleshed sustainable community garden next year. We are teaching sq foot gardening, creating raised beds for little to nothing, composting, pruning, pest control, water conservation, reducing individual carbon footprints, etc. We are reclaiming fruit and nut trees. And we can and are doing this for almost nothing. We welcome all help, there are jobs for all, and no one is turned away.

This isn't about large scale agricultural and sustaining current living conditions... it's the exact opposite in fact. The only thing the two have in common is the word "sustain". The movement (and it is indeed a movement)is all about sustainable use of resources and how we can transition from buying expensive ( or going without) food to producing individually or through collective/community based gardening.

This topic and thread are very important. There is much to be shared and learned here, and I intend to come back and DU-Wiki the heck out of this subject matter as I can. Thanks for posting this article and raising awareness. :)

[WinkyDink]

251. Not in PA.

[Melinda]

257. I'll see what info I can find for you then. :-)

[Melinda]

286. Found it... you CAN sq ft garden year round in PA; sources:

Seems there is a low cost seminar in Monroe County tomorrow, 4/2/11, plus other info here: http://extension.psu.edu/monroe/events/food-from-your-garden

Master Gardener program in PA: http://extension.psu.edu/master-gardener/about

Master Gardener blog(s): http://blogs.mcall.com/master_gardeners/2010/03/square-foot-gardening-.html


Misc links on raised bed gardening in PA

%3BLH%3A64%3BLP%3A1%3BKMBGC%3A%23E0EAEF%3BKMBOC%3A%23C3D5DF%3B&adkw=AELymgXRmJAJY6z1TeUXDObsTxPO82OY7hyozUV5rapVULETeVC4UM9FL2G4YnFpOOBXG-6GqIdLSEWF-ma2F5TbApnf6_6AEpTP9JLS_MJcBoNiVSQF2Bo&boostcse=0&q=square+foot+gardening+in+pa&cx=%21009987215249396987893%3Acmobqlykeyk">Misc links on square foot gardening in PA

Happy learning! :hi:

[Fly by night]

240. Ah yes, the Garden.

For pictures of mine from years past, visit post #58 at this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3624105#3629206

I already have red and white potatoes, red, white and yellow onions, broccoli, cauliflower, red and green cabbage, radishes, spinach, turnips and romaine and buttercrunch lettuce planted in the Garden, and 20 Bradley tomato plants rooting in gallon pots on the back porch.

Once we get through red-bud winter (and dogwood, locust and blackberry winters besides), it will be time for the Garden to nourish me again.

And all it asks in return is some mindful tending.

"When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the Garden."

Minnie Aumonier said that. It is the one thing she is remembered for.

Not a bad legacy, that. K&R for all our Gardens.

[olegramps]

245. I love to grow things, but I have wondered just how economical it is.

When I was growing up we had a huge garden. It was economical because we used cow manure and well water and started all the plants from seed. The entire back porch was dedicated to growing seedlings. In the Fall my grandparents and parents canned for weeks seemingly without end as we all pitched in to "put up the growings." It was lot of work and not without its dangers of food poisoning. I don't think that many rural families still go to the extent that we did. It just doesn't seem to be practical now days when you can buy in bulk.

[adigal]

265. I may not save money, but it is much, much healthier

and if there are ever shortages, we will have food, which is the important part of this all to me.

[kestrel91316]

247. Oh, you've stepped in it now. It's not ok around here to suggest

that people of limited means grow some of their own food if they have access to a patch of dirt.

It's TOO MUCH WORK. And how ELITIST of us to suggest such a thing.

Ask me why I don't go there anymore.

[janet118]

248. Tip: Plow up the front yard if it gets better sun . . .

In the late 70s we moved from central Maine (where everyone has a vegetable garden) to the Mass. suburbs where it's more of a decorative thing. We tried to grow vegetables in our backyard but they didn't get enough sun. So the following year we plowed up the front yard. The neighbors went ballistic. Half our yard was a cornfield, the rest other veggies. Overnight, we became instant weirdos. One day when I was working in the garden, an older couple from the far end of the street was walking by. They were both smiling. "You know," said the woman. "Your garden reminds me so much of the victory gardens we used to have."

We became great friends after that.

Here's to the New Victory Gardens.

[Esurientes]

261. My front yard has better soil, so I'm going to plant some edibles there.

I called the city zoning office and a guy there said it was fine to plant veggies in front yards as long as they didn't grow over 4 feet tall. So I won't be able to do corn (can't do much with it in a 10' by 12' flat space, anyway) but bush cucumbers and strawberries are on the short list now.

[Retrograde]

292. If your city will let you

Mine doesn't seem to have a problem with front-yard gardens, or even with people just letting their lawns die in summer (this is not a climate for lawns: since we get no rain from April to November lawns need weekly irrigation. So do vegetables, but they can at least be spot-watered.) Some people are stuck with neighborhood associations and homeowners associations that like to control everything.

You might still be able to squeeze in some decorative edibles in containers

[Biker13]

267. Good Info Here

Another suggestion; swap with neighbors! We have GREAT neighbors, who grow things we don't, so we trade.

Gardening is hard work, but since when is hard work a bad thing?

Biker's Old Lady

[WatsonT]

273. If you're really worried about the economy

I'd say switch to vegetarian. (big meat eater here, but veggies are cheaper).

Yes gardening is a nice supplement and for some things (particular fresh herbs that go for a few bucks for a tiny package) it can be a money saver.

But really it's not going to make a significant difference in your day to day expenses.

Eliminate all fast food and stockpile pasta, rice, beans, etc. Don't buy prepared food, learn how to cook instead.

This is healthier and cheaper and practical.

[joeglow3]

290. Coupons Coupons Coupons

My wife recently bought a book on "extreme couponing." We managed to cut our food bill in half after about 3 months of doing it (and I know there is more we can do).