Self-deleted by member

[ReggieVeggie]

This message was self-deleted and locked by ReggieVeggie.

[Teaser]

1. Killing is never justified, ever.

No one should ever kill. There should be no army. No navy. No air force. No marines.

Why don't we make love bombs instead of death bombs?

[abomination]

4. humans are animals

if we do not kill there will be people who want to kill like criminals... and if we do not have any armies who will help the country when it on war there has to be bombs, what kind of hippie are you. http://conersationalblog.blogspot.com/

[aquart]

12. That's a good way to get killed.

"Should" is an amazingly useless defense.

[bvar22]

13. Cruise Missles, Bombs, and "Spooky" Gunships...

can't be considered "Humanitarian" aid.
They will always be agents of Human destruction.

[pampango]

2. The UN should stay out of the humanitarian intervention business. n/t

[defendandprotect]

3. Nonsense ... World Can't Wait didn't know US/CIA created Taliban/Al Qaeda and financed it to 9/11?

We have a big problem here at DU with the many who didn't catch up with the Libyan

Revolution threads -- which began immediately after the Egyptian Uprising --


Meanwhile, coming back to Taliban/Al Qaeda -- US/CIA went into Afghanistan 6 months

before the Russians came in -- they had financed the Taliban/Al Qaeda thru ISI Pakistan.

US used Taliban/Al Qaeda to bait the Russians into Afghanistan ... "in hopes of giving

them a Vietnam type experience" -- !!

See: Brzezinski on that -- it's all over the internet -- for more than 6 years!!

[Duende azul]

17. And you don't think they may have been in Libya before events started?

It would surprise me if they hadn't been in before.

And with the Libyan "revolution" pretty much every other Arab uprising was off the screen. Or shut/shot down.

Strange how just the only country not fully integrated in the IMF/western play got the only violent revolution. And the blessings of western intervention.

If the PNAC folks are happy, something's wrong.

[defendandprotect]

18. CIA can be anywhere --- but not usually on the side of democracy ---

That's what the Libyan people want --

PNAC are also radically right wing -- any time money is spent on weapons or violence,

they'd be happy.

[Duende azul]

21. As you say, usually not on the side of democracy....

...but what does this tell about Libya?

The 'rebels'
All the worthy democratic aspirations of the Libyan youth movement notwithstanding, the most organized opposition group happens to be the National Front for the Salvation of Libya - financed for years by the House of Saud, the CIA and French intelligence. The rebel "Interim Transitional National Council" is little else than the good ol' National Front, plus a few military defectors. This is the elite of the "innocent civilians" the "coalition" is "protecting".

Right on cue, the "Interim Transitional National Council" has got a new finance minister, US-educated economist Ali Tarhouni. He disclosed that a bunch of Western countries gave them credit backed by Libya's sovereign fund, and the British allowed them to access $1.1 billion of Gaddafi's funds. This means the Anglo-French-American consortium - and now NATO - will only pay for the bombs. As war scams go this one is priceless; the West uses Libya's own cash to finance a bunch of opportunists Libyan rebels to fight the Libyan government. And on top of it the Americans, the Brits and the French feel the love for all that bombing. Neo-cons must be kicking themselves; why couldn't former US deputy defense secretary Paul Wolfowitz come up with something like this for Iraq 2003?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MC30Ak01.html

Regarding money spent on weapons and violence, who will rebuild the Libyan airforce when all is said and done?

Other profiteers from this war are named in the above article. It's worth reading in its entirety.

[defendandprotect]

24. CIA works in right wing/elite interests -- Wasn't that W kissing/hugging the Sauds?

If the Interim Council wants a Constitution which makes everyone equal --

AND I'D SUGGEST THAT YOU READ IT -- then I support them!


Right on cue, the "Interim Transitional National Council" has got a new finance minister, US-educated economist Ali Tarhouni. He disclosed that a bunch of Western countries gave them credit backed by Libya's sovereign fund, and the British allowed them to access $1.1 billion of Gaddafi's funds. This means the Anglo-French-American consortium - and now NATO - will only pay for the bombs. As war scams go this one is priceless; the West uses Libya's own cash to finance a bunch of opportunists Libyan rebels to fight the Libyan government. And on top of it the Americans, the Brits and the French feel the love for all that bombing. Neo-cons must be kicking themselves; why couldn't former US deputy defense secretary Paul Wolfowitz come up with something like this for Iraq 2003?

Will have to wait for the protesters' views on all of that --

Keep in mind the protesters asked for the NFZ -- and no boots on the ground.

If that holds, why not let them pay for the bombs? Might appease those here who

are so concerned with the price of Pentagon ammunition -- ?



"War is a Racket!" we should shut down our Pentagon -- that is, if we're really worried about

costs and violence?

[zorahopkins]

5. US Seeks To Impose Its VIsion

The US seeks to impose its own vision of what Libya should look like.

The US also tries to "dress up" its imperialism by saying that "NATO is in control" and "The UN allows us to do this".

Most galling of all, the US refuses to call its actions a war, preferring instead "Kinetic Military Action ".

War-mongering imperialist countries never learn.

[Egnever]

6. Hooooey!

If ground troops were sent in I might get on board with this pacifist claptrap, till that happens i'll take a huge pass. All conflicts are noit the same and comparing one to the other is weak minded BS.

[ReggieVeggie]

7. says an abject partisan

come up with an actual argument, would ya?

[Egnever]

14. I am partisan cause I dont agree with you?

More simple minded claptrap.

[defendandprotect]

30. Amazing so many here know the price of the Pentagon's ammunition.....

and are letting it distract them from the Libyan lives at risk by this

Mad Man!!

That's what Capitalism teaches us -- the price of everything -- the value of nothing!!

[Uncle Joe]

8. The problem wasn't in aiding the Mujahidin in Afghanistan against the Soviets, the problem

was in abandoning that nation afterward and doing nothing to help them develop from an economic/educational/social standpoint.

Thanks for the thread, ReggieVeggie.

[defendandprotect]

19. US/CIA "baited the Russians in" -- financed the Taliban/Al Qaeda ...created it --

Afghanistan was simply a trap for the Russians --

set up by US/CIA -- it was set up to "bait the Russians into Afghanistan in hopes

of giving them a Vietnam-type experience" --

US/CIA also financed the Taliban/Al Qaeda up to 9/11 -- and who knows about afterwards?

We had 24 hour a day surveillance of the Taliban --

See Brzezinski on this saga --

[BOG PERSON]

25. we didn't finance the taliban

we financed the mujahideen, who were so awful they were ousted by the taliban, and NATO had to come in a few years later and reinstall the remnants of the mujahideen as the Northern Alliance

[defendandprotect]

28. US/CIA created the Taliban/Al Qaeda thru ISI-Pakistan --

We've also worked in the ME to create a VIOLENT form of Islam --

If you remember those textbooks you heard so much about from our MSM --

which they played over and again?

Except US created, wrote, and printed those books -- and shipped them into ME!!

Organized patriarchal religion has always been a tool of Elites to cause distruption

and gain conquests over other nations.


Here's the first part -- TEXTBOOK story second part --

The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_interview_shor...


AND TEXTBOOKS ...

The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.

Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.htm

[defendandprotect]

29. And, yes, US/CIA financed the Taliban/Al Qaeda --- right up to day of 9/11 -- !!

[Major Hogwash]

9. What about the threat Khaddafi made to wipe out Banghazi? Was that just hot air?

I don't think so.
President Obama stopped the genocide of 600,000 citizens in Libya.

[ReggieVeggie]

10. President Obama did that?

thought it was an international effort

[pampango]

11. The UN did that, thankfully, not Obama alone, though the US could have vetoed the UN action.

:)

[defendandprotect]

26. Also think it's fitting that the nations which armed the Kaddafi monster help to disarm him!!

US has a contract for undelivered weapons!

UK, France - Russia all armed him!!

Theft of the Libyans' wealth and using it to buy weapons to keep them from holding

him accountable!!

There are people on DU now who don't even know that Kaddafi has brought in mercenaries

from other countries -- mainly Chad -- to fight for him -- 50,000 and more -- $2,000

per day, per merc!

Brought in by plane and ship -- US/allies are trying to block that now.

Not to mention that Kaddafi loaded them up with Vodka and hallucinagenic drugs --

and his army with VIAGRA and CONDOMS!!

[Arctic Dave]

15. You believe all political rhetoric?

You must be extremely disappointed in Obama then.

[defendandprotect]

27. Are you suggesting that Benghazi wasn't under attack by Kaddafi? Or maybe Misurata?

Or other towns he's nearly destroyed?

[Arctic Dave]

31. Under attack and genocide aren't even i the same park.

If that is the case then the US is commiting genocide throughout the ME.

[defendandprotect]

32. Perhaps you should read something about the towns attacked --

Misurata -- on and on --

the landmines -- the rapes -- the arrests -- the burying of people underground

for years.

That Gaddafi's opportunities to destroy his own people -- GENOCIDE -- haven't actually

come to fruition has only to do with US/NATO grounding his planes.

[TorchTheWitch]

37. look up the word genocide

I'm sick to death of people here misusing this term just because it sounds good. What is happening in Libya is NOT genocide and never will be genocide no matter how many people Gaddafi kills. Genocide occurs because of WHO a group of people are, not because of what they DO.

Raphael Lemkin, a Polish-Jewish lawyer, coined the term in 1943 from the root words genos (Greek for family, tribe, or race) and -cide (Latin for killing) to describe the Nazi's policies and actions against Jews. He described genocide as the deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group which usually does not include just killing but the taking of children and transferring them to another group and/or preventing future births of more members of the group, etc.

In 1948, Lemkin's newly coined word, genocide, and it's definition was adopted by the UN where it's definition became a legal definition and both the intent and the act was classified as a crime in the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

The Nazi's policy of the extermination of Jews was genocide. The US's policy of the extermination of Native Americans was genocide. Rwanda's policy of the extermination of the Tutsi was genocide. Gaddafi's policy of the killing of rebels attempting to overthrow him by force of arms regardless of how many he kills is NOT genocide by any stretch of the imagination.

[defendandprotect]

45. UN described G regime actions as "genocide" -- NATO minister "barbaric genocide"

Moammar Gaddafi must pay for atrocities - NYT Editorial ...
... to the United Nations described the regime's actions as genocide and asked for international intervention. The diplomats' appeal was one indication that the Gaddafi ...
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=... - Cached


World powers move towards Gaddafi exile plan
... including the United Nations and NATO ... minister had also earlier described ... End "barbaric genocide", Gaddafi urges West • Military actions stopped ...
www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/1119579/1/... - Cached.Libyan Ambassador Accuses Gaddafi of Genocide

Libya’s deputy ambassador at UN calls on ICC to prosecute ...
... to the United Nations called ... what he described as genocide and crimes against humanity committed by Muammar Gaddafi during ... world must take action against Muammar Gaddafi ...
www.sudantribune.com/Libya-s-deputy-ambassador-at-UN,38071 - Cached


ALL info argues against your position --

Certainly it is "genocide" when a dictator is wiping out his own people --

even laying landmines against them!

"Extermination" of any group is genocide!!




Dictionary.com
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

[Hannah Bell]

41. do you know the definition of genocide?

jesus christ, the word has lost its meaning from being slung around in every nato excursion of the last 25 years.

during which time libya's population doubled & benghazi's approximately tripled. some genocide.

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Africa/Libya.html

[defendandprotect]

46. I think the UN, ICC and Libyans know the definition of "genocide" -- !!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=775528&mesg_id=780023

[Hannah Bell]

52. the un did not describe khaddafi's actions as genocide. neither did the icc.

and i don't care what someone trying to drum up support for an intervention says.

but the misrepresentation of the links' content speaks volumes.

khaddafi's actions in no way constitute genocide.

[Hannah Bell]

42. burying of people underground for years -- what the hell are you talking about?

[joshcryer]

43. lol more uninformed posturing

[defendandprotect]

48. Amazing -- !! And they don't quesiton what they might have missed ...

the immediate reaction seems to be that if they don't know something --

it didn't happen!!!

Honestly, however, I think it was a big mistake to not have the Egyptian and Libyan

Revolutionary threads STUCK up on the HOME page so that everyone would see it every day --

too many of them now don't have a clue as to what has really been going on !!

And, that's a handicap now as they try to judge Obama/NATO's action --

and what we are saying in our comments!!


And, just want to thank you and the many others who worked their butts off keeping us so

well informed here -- I'm thankful and proud of what you all did for DU!!


:)

[defendandprotect]

47. Try watching one of the videos that pertain to this --

All you are telling us is that you are woefully uninformed about what has

been going on in Libya!! As many here seem to be!!

[Hannah Bell]

50. why don't you link me to an amnesty report or something similar.

[damntexdem]

16. A lot of bullshit is coming out against this necessary intervention.

I respect pacifist views -- but don't agree with them. Otherwise, I see the opposition as just so much b.s.

[Distant Observer]

20. The "necessity" was beautifully constructed to suit certain interest. Not the Libyan people

[defendandprotect]

23. You mean Obama was compelling Gadaffi to lay landmines and bomb his citizens?

[EFerrari]

33. Some of those citizens are armed insurgents.

The "council" NATO is dealing with are military defectors and Western trained finance guys, not college students.

[defendandprotect]

36. The protesters were unarmed -- save what they began picking up from

defeated or retreating military -- STILL NOW A QUESTION of giving them arms -

because they are largely unarmed.

Think it's unusual when we are in disagreement --

however, I note a lot of suggestions on DU that CIA rigged this uprising --

and that US now has their guy in on finance!

I think if there are problems with this, the protesters are going to let us know.

Since I don't trust my own government, I think there will be opportunities for

this "moral" intervention to be distorted.

Further, I don't think anyone has ever thought that the protesters were "college"

students. They are people of all ages.

From the Egyptian uprising to the Libyans, these are obviously intelligent and

courageous people who have had enough after 40 years of Kaddafi. As the UN has

emphasized, no official should try to stay in power by attacking his own people.


And, I think many of us here in American can project this situation onto our own --

who will come to intervene for us should we face our own MIC in the hads of fascists?

[EFerrari]

44. We really do rarely disagree.

:)

The rebellion does seem to be lacking weapons but, this revolt was not like Egypt. This thing is starting to look like it was manipulated from "go". The Libyan protests started Feb 17 and got violent pretty quickly. At the end of March, the CIA has been on the ground "advising and aiding" for three weeks. That we know of. I have to wonder how much that "advice" has to do with the rapid escalation of violence.

[defendandprotect]

51. Well ....

I disagree again --

There's a short-circuiting now between what people who followed the threads know and think --

and what people who didn't follow them are thinking about all of this --

Further, I'm also noticing a very strong effort to try to create the impression that things

haven't been so bad for Libya -- that the price of ammo is more important than saving lives --

There seems to be ideas planted that CIA rigged this --

Not that I trust my own government, but since when is the CIA on the side of democracy?

Think you should read the Constitution the Libyans have prepared --

Granted there will be many who will try to distort this operation --

Libyans asked for NFZ -- they would have been unable to defeat Kaddafi's WEAPONS without it --

I think we can look at it as justice that these same nations which have armed Kaddafi --

-- UK, France, Russia -- and even a later contract to USA -- may now be reversing things!

The Libyan protesters started two days BEFORE 2/17, if I recall correctly -- unexpectedly --

and did not get violent quickly.

The protesters proceded non-violently taking towns -- yes, eventually they were picking up

weapons which were discarded. However, it was Kaddafi who declared war on his own people --

bombing them and moving heavy artillery weapons in to destroy towns and townspeople.

Good heavens, simply look at the wounds! People cut in half by the ammunition he was using

against townspeople!!

I'm no fan of the CIA -- but as far as I know they announced they were coming and worked with

the Council to approve it. You might also recall that the British got caught by the protesters

trying to put people in -- and they were sent back -- Council refused to see them.

Keep in mind that there will be many here anxious to distort this situation --

I'm no Obama fan -- but many of the rw will be eager to make this about money -- and to

prevent anything from being done to help Libyans gain democracy.

Granted, I do think that he delay in setting up the NFZ was intended to do harm to the

protesters -- tremendous damage was done to them -- deaths/woundings -- bombings of towns

which were retaken by Kaddafi. This also prevented the protesters from picking up new

protesters as they went along -- exhausting them. They are now met in these towns by

great destruction, death and woundings -- and the doctors/hospitals unable to cope with it.

Sadly, we have people here at DU who don't even know about the rapes -- about the

people imprisoned underground in dirt/darkness -- abandoned for years.

Many don't even know about the mercenaries Kaddafi brought in!!

It's ridiciulous -- they think we're lying to them!!

[defendandprotect]

22. Think the problem is so few here watched the Egyptian uprising and/or the Libyan uprising....

if you were connected to those uprisings, think you understand it a bit

differently. Actually, didn't really understand why so few here checked in

to the Revolution threads -- only about 18 rec's a day -- though many who took

a look may not have rec'd --

Think the Revolution threads should have been a permanent feature at "HOME" --

[EFerrari]

34. There's a lot of bullshit being unravelled as the story in Libya becomes more clear

and we get more information.

[defendandprotect]

38. Can you lay out for us what you think the BS is and what you think the real story is?

and what "info" you're referring to --?

[EFerrari]

49. I don't know if I can coherently right now.

But it's beginning to look to me as if the Libyan portion of the Arab Spring has been thoroughly manipulated, if not planned or instigated. I don't mean there aren't real protesters or that Gaddafi is a good head of state.

But the way this is rolling out is just too neat in a lot of ways. The "rebels" were cutting oil deals sanctioned by the White House before Obama even talked to the nation. Where our government and media tried to put the brakes on the Egyptian protesters (remember "be patient"?), they've done their best to amplify and escalate this situation. What was the CIA doing in Libya three weeks ago? Was bombing Gaddafi's compound a way to keep protesters safe?

There are too many open questions. And now we see that 2000 Marines have been sent to Libya. I guess business for the MIC was too slow or something.

[KG]

35. there is nothing humanitarian about a barrage of cruise missiles.

[defendandprotect]

39. Humanitarian aid is coming by sea -- and this intervention is ensuring that it can come in...

moving into Misurata only today, I think -- $300,000 of medical aid --

They are also trying to ensure that Kaddafi cannot bring in any more mercenaries by air --

or by boat --

he has brought in more than 50,000 mercenaries -- paying them $2,000 per day, each.

Still getting mercenaries and weapons from Chad.

Last report I heard on Misurata was more than 400 dead -- and 1,400 wounded and hospital/

doctors unable to cope with situation -- they're discussing moving patients to Tunisia.

[inna]

40. kr and thank you; i think more and more people are waking up to the ugly reality of

American imperialism.