Vatican: Airstrikes killed 40 civilians in Tripoli

[The Straight Story]

ROME - At least 40 civilians have been killed in airstrikes by Western forces on Tripoli, the top Vatican official in the Libyan capital told a Catholic news agency on Thursday citing witnesses.

"The so-called humanitarian raids have killed dozens of civilian victims in some neighborhoods of Tripoli," said Giovanni Innocenzo Martinelli, the Apostolic Vicar of Tripoli.

"I have collected several witness accounts from reliable people. In particular, in the Buslim neighborhood, due to the bombardments, a civilian building collapsed, causing the death of 40 people," he told Fides, the news agency of the Vatican missionary arm.

Libyan officials have taken foreign reporters to the sites of what they say were the aftermath of western air strikes on Tripoli but evidence of civilian casualties have been inconclusive.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=214560

[Shagbark Hickory]

1. Um Hello?! K&R.

Nobody's raising hell about this? The vatican is apretty credible source.

[Hugabear]

3. All lies, propaganda. We're using smart bombs this time

Unlike Afghanistan or Iraq, this time we're using "smart" bombs, which only kill bad people and avoid civilian casualties. Anything you hear otherwise is lies.

:sarcasm:

[MilesColtrane]

48. "The vatican is apretty credible source."

Yeah, they never lied to us about priests diddling altar boys.

[Scuba]

2. The Vatican is conducting airstrikes? Sheeeze, what have we come to? n/t

[Distant Observer]

4. NO, NO.! Our precision bombs don't kill people. Must be bodies planted!!

[dkf]

5. Oh oh.

Doesn't sound like we can pooh pooh this one away.

[Shagbark Hickory]

6. Who the fuck unrec'd this damn story?

And what the hell's wrong wit you?

[meow mix]

10. Unrec, lobbying for ghadaffi

people refusing to leave tripoli are supportive of thier monster-king, indirectly or not

[Alamuti Lotus]

14. So does that make any "civilian" in Tripoli a valid target for killing, in your eyes?

[sabrina 1]

17. Wow, so any civilian living in Tripoli, which would include

the elderly, women and children, whether they are directly or 'indirectly' supportive of Qaddafi or not, are legitimate targets?

And people in Arab countries have no right to choose their own leaders? Who do you think we will install in THIS country? And who gave us the right to choose their leaders for them?

Have you been following the Iraqi protest movement btw, another place where if you happened to be in the way of our bombs, 'directly or indirectly' a supporter of Saddam Hussein, or even just an innocent bystander, too bad? We killed over one million of them. And they are not at all happy with the government we installed.

Seeing posts like this, if they reflect the general views of Americans regarding other countries, makes me think this country is lost.

[Mimosa]

23. +1,000

I always think of people who are too ill, depressed or scared to leave their homes. WHY SHOULD THEY HAVE TO LEAVE THEIR OWN HOMES TO AVOID OUR BOMBS?

[Prometheus Bound]

24. Man, that's pretty fucked up.

[Name removed]

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[joe_sixpack]

31. Wow! Never thought I'd read something like that....

on this site.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[The_Casual_Observer]

8. Friendly neighborhood humanitarian bombing

[originalpckelly]

9. Gaddafi: 8,000 US:40

Perspective.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StarburstClock]

16. Civilian killing in perspective, hmnnnnn...

It's like torture in perspective, apparently if a person doesn't do it as often as some evil other then it's A-OK!

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[sabrina 1]

19. Any verification of those numbers? People have been asking

since they jumped suddenly from 2,000 to 6,000 to 8,000 almost overnight last week, but so far, no verification has been forth-coming.

People certainly were killed, on both sides, but facts are important, just throwing numbers around to bolster your political agenda only ends up discrediting you.

[originalpckelly]

21. And if it was 2,000, that's still quite a number more than 40, isn't it?

[sabrina 1]

22. IF is the operative word. We have no verification of any of those

numbers. Let's hope we will get some accurate information rather than both sides throwing out numbers like this. We're talking about people's lives, not commodities to be used for propaganda purposes.

[originalpckelly]

32. And we all know that one guy from the Vatican in a city where there is no real freedom...

is a really credibly source as well, right?

[sabrina 1]

37. I don't believe I said that. I think I said 'both sides'.

[originalpckelly]

39. You're not being neutral as your post downthread shows.

I presumed as much when I replied.

[sabrina 1]

42. What do you mean by 'neutral'? I take positions based on

information that is available at the time. Which is why I initially fully supported the Libyan revolution assuming it was being organized by the Libyan people and that they had a good chance of accomplishing their goals without losing their lives.

Since then, a lot more information has become available causing me to wonder if encouraging people who are not in a position to protect and defend themselves from a far superior force was ever the right thing to do. By putting themselves in such danger they also risked having to have their country occupied, something they clearly stated they did not want. I support them in those goals.

Not to mention the information about who had an interest in doing that and their motives and lack of concern for the lives of those people.

How can you be 'neutral' about people's lives and their future when you find information that threatens those lives and the goals they so clearly stated? It is wrong to stick to a position because it's so important to ME. I am not risking my life or that of my family over there. THEY are, and now THEY, the Libyan people are beginning to ask the same questions and exressing their own mistrust of those who have taken over their revolution. And now facing an invasion of their country, exactly what they did not want.

As for the numbers of people who have died, we have no idea how many died and for their sake I hope it is few not many. One was too many. On either side.

[Distant Observer]

28. US senate testimony was that there was not verification of developments that warrated

intervention -- that was just before Hillary et al rallied the troops

[dixiegrrrrl]

25. Great...now we are using dead people as a scoreboard.

"Gaddafi killed more than we did, so it is ok".
Perspective, indeed.

[originalpckelly]

33. The point is that the other guy has killed many more people...

and if we didn't do anything, there would have been way more.

And I'd like to point out that the Libyan massacre deniers are trying to justify tolerating the deaths of thousands of people, and they're the ones who brought us down this petty disgusting path. I'm pointing out the truth as best we know.

[sabrina 1]

40. You can't point out the truth because we don't know the truth.

Did you believe the Iraq War lies also? Saddam was cooking babies in ovens, Mushroom clouds were headed our way?

No one watching this from the U.S. has any clue what the truth is, but we are finding out some facts that were not known when we first heard about the protests in Libya. Facts that should make any thinking person hesitate before supporting these bombings and a possibloe 20 years of occupation of their country, like Iraq.

Even the rebels themselves are now asking questions about who has infiltrated their movement and who was encouraging them to attack the government when there was no chance of them winning without foreign intervention, something they DO NOT WANT.

So any 'revolutionary' who is calling for foreign intevention, is NOT one of the initial protesters are they?

I'll wait until we learn more about this event which is looking less and less like what we thought it was in the beginning.

[Shagbark Hickory]

12. ...

:kick:

[neverforget]

13. I read that as "Vatican airstrike" at first. WTF? When did the Vatican

get an air force? :rofl: :spank:

[rucky]

34. God is their co-pilot. n/t

[Baclava]

44. Well, this IS a Holy Crusade, judging by the blind faith of some

I was gonna say something about the Holy hand grenade of Antioch - but I didn't

[StarburstClock]

15. Nut un, freedom bombs only kill the bad people!

My TV told me!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. Everybody knows that the pope is a secret Muslim and hates Obama.

[Monique1]

26. Now the Vatican is an expert

regarding Tripoli? The church is out of their league here. Get out of politics Vatican - where were you during the Nazi and Fascism years?

[Prometheus Bound]

27. It's a report by a Vatican official living in Tripoli.

He collected first-hand accounts.

[originalpckelly]

36. And how do you know to trust a guy living in Tripoli?

How do you know he wasn't forced to make these statements? It does benefit Gaddafi in a way, doesn't it?

Not saying it's wrong, but there's reasonable doubt here. One guy? Don't actual reporters need more than one source to write a story? :shrug:

[malaise]

30. Those people were in the way

Tough shite! :puke: :sarcasm:

[sabrina 1]

38. Yes, it's a shame the way people keep getting in the way of our bombs

In Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan and apparently in Yemen. Libyans should have learned by now to move out of the country when we come visiting with our humanitarian bombs.

[malaise]

41. They'll blame Gaddafi

The West only brings peace, democracy and freedom - and of course sweets for the children to win hearts and minds.

[sabrina 1]

43. Yes, we are always forced to drop bombs on people.

Humanitarian bombs. What is sad is that I was reading a speech by Obama where he was speaking about his ideas on foreign policy. He emphasized that diplomacy was the most important tool we have to avoid wars, like Iraq.

No diplomacy was tried in this case and it's looking more and more like it was planned last year so there was never a chance of anyone even suggesting it. Just like Iraq.

[Gravel Democrat]

45. Kosovo was a bit different...An appendix (b) was added at the last minute to the peace agreement

"The Rambouillet Agreement is the name of a proposed peace agreement between then-Yugoslavia and a delegation representing the ethnic-Albanian majority population of Kosovo. It was drafted by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) and named for Chateau Rambouillet, where it was initially proposed. The significance of the agreement lies in the fact that Yugoslavia refused to accept it, which NATO used as justification to start the Kosovo War. Belgrade's rejection was based on the argument that the agreement contained provisions for Kosovo's autonomy that went further than the Serbian/Yugoslav government saw as reasonable...

here are just 3 paragraphs of Appendix B added at the last minute--

(8)NATO personnel shall enjoy, together with their vehicles, vessels, aircraft, and equipment, free and unrestricted passage and unimpeded access throughout the FRY (federal republic of yugoslavia) including associated airspace and territorial waters. This shall include, but not be limited to, the right of bivouac, maneuver, billet, and utilization of any areas or facilities as required for support, training, and operations.

a. NATO shall be immune from all legal process, whether civil, administrative, or criminal.

b. NATO personnel, under all circumstances and at all times, shall be immune from the Parties, jurisdiction in respect of any civil, administrative, criminal, or disciplinary offenses which may be committed by them in the FRY. The Parties shall assist States participating in the operation in the exercise of their jurisdiction over their own nationals.

The entire appendix b is a disgrace. If you have a few minutes it's worth a read. If you were the leader of a country could you have signed such a thing?

http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/appendixb.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambouillet_Agreement
The Wiki link, interestingly, does not have the full text on that page

No patriot would have been able to sign such a document.

John Pilger wrote in New Statesman:“Anyone scrutinizing the Rambouillet document is left with little doubt that the excuses given for the subsequent bombing were fabricated. The peace negotiations were stage managed and the Serbs were told: surrender and be occupied, or don't surrender and be destroyed

Even Henry Kissinger said it was a disgrace.

No press was given to this astounding lack of diplomacy. Then we were led to believe that US NATO must bomb the country without UN approval because if not hundreds of thousands (def sec cohen (R)) would be slaughtered.

This is outrageous but people generally are seemingly not capable of learning and interpreting new information.

It's like most of the country has been turned into raving mad mobs.

It's disgusting beyond any belief.

[sabrina 1]

49. You have to wonder why they always have to lie to

start their wars. I don't understand it since they don't really care what we think anyhow. I would much prefer to be told the truth. We know they will do what they want but being lied to makes it that much worse.

Thank you for the links. I am not really familiar with the details of that war. I was naive enough at that time to assume we were doing something good.

[Turborama]

46. If this is true, why didn't Moussa Ibrahim mention it in the regime's press conference just earlier?

I watched the whole thing and no mention of it whatsoever, then and since.

Why isn't Gadaffi making hay with this?

Why haven't his propaganda machine taken the reporters to the scene?

Libyan officials have taken foreign reporters to the sites of what they say were Western air strikes on Tripoli, but evidence of civilian casualties has been inconclusive.

I'll believe it when it's not a report from a third party and we see tangible evidence.

Also, he states he wants a diplomatic solution which would give "Gaddafi a dignified exit".

Yeah, OK.

Would that include a "dignified perp walk" to http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4777913">the ICC AND http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4794653">The African court on human and peoples' Rights?