What finally pushed people into the streets during th Vietnam era ? How do we get the masses moving?

[Snoutport]

I was a bit young during the Vietnam era to remember a whole lot. My dad trained Green Berets and we were a military family. Hippies were not looked upon with a lot of favor but I remember watching protests on TV.

The country is being attacked by the Right Wing...schools, health care, special ed and services for the disabled. What has to happen for the US to act this time? Does it hinge on the students? Do we need to beg the activists from the 70s to show us how it is done again?

Something has to happen. Somehow we need to stand up.

If you remember how the country finally reached the tipping point in the 70s share that info with the newer generation.

How do we teach people to fight for this beautiful country?!

[The Straight Story]

1. The internet is the new street (nt)

[Xithras]

6. And TPTB LOVE that.

You can ignore a bunch of whiny wankers on the Internet. Kinda hard to ignore 10k people massed outside your door.

The Internet is the worst thing that could have possibly happened to the protest movement. Everyone vents their frustrations online in a nice, dispersed, peaceful manner. Angry people send emails and polls (which quickly get filtered, so TPTB never see them), and then go about their business thinking they "did something about it".

[EstimatedProphet]

30. In general, I think the internet is the worst thing to happen, period

It has brought out the absolute worst in people. It's a high-tech version of Plato's Ring of Gyges. Anyone can log in at any time and be whoever they want, so no one can know who they really are. This makes it effectively an anti-responsibility machine. I'm convinced that the extreme hostility and rudeness we now see in public is directly caused by the extreme hostility and rudeness that is common on the internet from trolling. The teabillies wouldn't act the way they do if they thought they would be actually held responsible for it.

[struggle4progress]

41. +

[JFN1]

73. Double edge sword

Anonymous communication has certainly swung us more toward individualistic isolation, to be sure. But there have always been mechanisms to escape responsibility, in every age. The most common is usually "the mob mentality" which allows people to do terrible things to other people and escape indivual responsibility for their own terrible acts via the camoflage provided by "the mob."

Those who wage class war against us use the Internet to spread propaganda and to provide community/mob cover for people who do bad things. "Keyboard assassination" is one weapon being used in the Internet age, but not a very effective one since the very annonimity which can destroy an online persona is powerless to stop the re-emergence of the "assassinated" individual with a different online persona (identity is too strong a term).

Those who war against us do not see responsibility in the same manner we see it - they see responsibility only to theirs - not to all of us. There are no true islands on spaceship Earth, though, and methinks the moron patrol is long overdue for a stop in these here parts...we are all in this together, no matter how they act or what they believe...

[Raven]

2. The Draft. n/t

[Tansy_Gold]

7. Exactly.

they weren't volunteers. they were unwilling soldiers, dying in war no one really understood. we watched it on tv, not the sanitized version of gulf war 1. they came home and they were our friends and our neighbors and our brothers and our sons.

we had walter cronkite, too. when the media turned against the war, it was over.


TG, TT

[coalition_unwilling]

75. "Over" metaphorically maybe. But reality? Cronkite gave his assessment

of Tet in 1968 but the war did not end until 1974. Nixon expanded the war into Cambodia after Tet.

[Tansy_Gold]

80. the media were the cheerleaders.

when the media turned against the war, there was no way to maintain popular support. that was the real domino effect.

Here's one analysis:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/02/walter_cronkite_vietnam_and_th.html

Today, it’s hard to fully appreciate the stature and status Cronkite held in 1968. He was the successor in fame to the demigod persona that had been Edward R. Murrow. When President Johnson heard of Cronkite’s comments, he was quoted as saying, “That’s it. If I’ve lost Cronkite, I’ve lost middle America.”

In January 2006, Cronkite said his statement on Vietnam was his proudest moment. When asked then if he would give the same advice on Iraq, Cronkite didn’t hesitate to say “Yes.”

The site quoted does not appear to be a left/liberal/democratic/progressive site, and the author takes the perspective that Cronkite was wrong in his assessment of the results of the TET offensive and that the result of that assessment was more lives lost than had the war continued (presumably to a US victory).

So here's another perspective more from the left:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/cronkites-1968-dissent-on_b_238788.html

After citing the same LBJ quote as above, Greg Mitchell goes on to write:

Of course, the war continued for years, we even invaded Cambodia, and Vietnamese kept perishing in horrid numbers. But a U.S. "surge" in troop levels -- let alone the nuclear option -- was no longer thinkable. American troops eventually started to come home as Vietnamization and negotiation (along with much aerial bombing) eventually took center stage.


I'm not a student of the media, and perhaps my query has been answered many times over. But I have to wonder if the anti-war and even anti-government ultimate result of Cronkite's injecting his personal opinion into the "newscast" was that the rightwing set about to make the media their own, to control the message so no Cronkite ever upset the apple cart again.



TG. TT

[coalition_unwilling]

83. Paraphrasing what Cronkite actually said, Tet revealed that all

the optimistic prognostications of Westmoreland and his circle were BS. The strategy of attrition that Westmoreland had been following had not significantly degraded (or "attrited") the ability of liberation forces to continue to fight. Cronkite concluded by saying that the war was a stalemate and would continue so for the indefinite future.

Was Cronkite wrong?

It is true that Tet at the tactical level massively damaged the liberation forces' ability to remain at fighting strength in the field. However, the important word in the preceding sentence is 'tactical". Because Tet was a massive victory strategically for the liberation forces. The right wing all too frequently confuses and conflates tactics with strategy, so the analysis in the American Thinker column is hardly surprising.

Interesting idea you raise about RW trying to dominate media to prevent any future Cronkites. What is true beyond a shadow of a doubt is that they have so degraded the news and journalism professions that all comments now are little more than 'noise.'

[sad sally]

86. The reason why we Americans were able to know what was happening

was because Vietnam was the most accessible war in American history for reporters - the Gulf War, Iraq War, Afghanistan War and now the Libyan War are all well choreographed by the press who are shills for the military.

One of the very knowledgeable reporters, Michael Ware, no longer works for CNN, but his reports from Iraq seemed more like the reporting we used to get - honest. Dexter Filkins, from The New York Times, is also an very good war correspondent.

In Vietnam, the press had access, they travelled, they had such complete assistance in covering this military conflict - more access than ever before. Until 1965, America continued to insist that its role in Vietnam was purely advisory. If the government and military had restricted the press or imposed censorship of any kind would have signaled that the Army of South Vietnam was receiving something far more serious than advice. Is this why the press are censored today?

An excellent read about a few of the 300 women reporters is "War Torn: Stories of Women Reporters Who Covered Vietnam."

[dkf]

14. And over 58,000 killed many of whom had been picked to serve by lottery.

58,267 KIA and other dead (including the missing)<30>
303,644 WIA (including 153,303 who required hospitalization and 150,341 who didn't)<31>
1,711 MIA<32>

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties

[RZM]

17. Not an expert, but I think the draft was a big part of it

From what I know, the antiwar movement cooled somewhat after the draft ended.

Also, Vietnam represented a larger cause than just opposition to war. At the same time it was going on, student radicals all over place were expressing solidarity with Marxist movements and other national liberation causes across the non-Western world. Protesting Vietnam also tapped into that as well.

[TahitiNut]

37. Yup .. so, no "skin in the game" ... no protests.

Appalling. A true "democrat" (belief in "OF/BY/FOR") is obliged, IN PRINCIPLE, to support a Universal National Service obligation ... 2-3 years in national service. It'd be a prerequisite to "bear arms" and offer paraprofessinal training in needed skills ... where a couple of the options would be the Public Health Service and VISTA.

[Tesha]

65. Actually, it ended when they started drafting the middle class.

The war was okay as long as it was being fought
by "the lower classes".

Tesha

[coalition_unwilling]

76. I assume you are referring to the end of the college draft exemption? = n/t

[Tesha]

79. Yes. (NT)

[coalition_unwilling]

84. The reason I ask is that if depends on whom you are

asking :) The end of the college draft exemption did not mean the war ended for the people of southeast Asia. They continued to die in massive numbers up until 1975.

[lonestarnot]

3. The shutdown if it happens will give some more workers a choice of some street time.

:7

[Snoutport]

19. The shutdown..... yeah....you are right. That will give the people a chance to move en masse

wow....i hadn't even thought about what the shutdown could lead too....

[lonestarnot]

69. :)

[sinkingfeeling]

4. The draft and a growing counterculture. Down with the Establishment!

[Jackpine Radical]

5. What did it in Vietnam, in large measure, was the draft.

In those days, college-age protestors had skin in the game.

Another big push was from the returning veterans--who, as draftees, did not necessarily drink the Kool-aid like so many of the current generation have done. Also, many of us were older; I was 22 and had 4 years of college behind me when I was drafted. We were much more resistant to the propaganda for those reasons, and that is one of the reasons I still favor a draft. It's harder to get draftees to participate in stupid wars. If the war is worth fighting, if the country really needs protecting, then let us all, rich and poor, black and white, lay our lives on the line.

[Iggo]

8. The Draft.

And it was on TV.

[ohheckyeah]

57. Remember them showing all of the flag

draped coffins?

[Iggo]

66. Yep.

I was born at the beginning of the 60's.

To me, that was normal.

[ohheckyeah]

78. Two of my most vivid memories

from my teenage years were the day my brother left for Vietnam and the day he came home.

[Pisces]

9. The draft and thousands upon thousands of deaths. Don't get your hopes up. We are

so far removed from these wars that I think calling them wars is a false equivalency to what wars were in the past.

[valerief]

10. Remember the incredible media coverage of the massive antiwar protests of the oughts?

Oh, the massive protests happened, but no one knew about it. The ruling class has closed the media loophole.

[stubtoe]

11. The draft.

The threat of involuntary conscription and the strong possibility of death or injury focuses the mind.

[piratefish08]

12. the draft and a pissed off youth culture with no facebook.

[L. Coyote]

13. The media in the 60s wasn't censored like today.

Now, the Right has locked up ownership and control of all M$M and the people get only sanitized information.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elias49]

26. Besides the basic poor form of disparaging a generation...

please enlighten me, a baby boomer, about what "...I don't understand", about "...what's going on."

[Iggo]

39. Yes. Please tell me more about me.

[Waiting For Everyman]

46. A lot of boomers are with the Arab Spring, and technology. (I'm 61.)

But a large percentage never were protesters in the 60s, they jumped on the bandwagon and pretended to be when it became "in". And then they jumped off and became yuppies (Young Upwardly mobile Professionals, i.e. sell outs) when it went "out". They ride the popularity wave because they're basicly insecure, and very herd-like. They adopt opinions and principles instead of developing their own by thinking for themselves.

They betrayed the rest of us in every way they could think of, and that's just who they are. We have always known it, but nobody believes us. The "Greatest Generation" was even worse - they let their kids be beaten up in the streets, in fact they encouraged it. (The majority did, not all.)

These excuses you're hearing (any excuses, fill in the blank) from any age group, they're all just rationalizations for the position people want to take to begin with. But for their convenience, Gadaffi has spent millions on a propaganda industry of academics and pundits, to churn out ready-made excuses so that they don't have to bother thinking for themselves (they're good at pretending to, but don't). That's the truth, that's what's happening. (Google the Monitor Group)

The Libyan FFs are no different than our revolutionaries were - we all know that, the Arabs know it and we know it. So that tells you something doesn't it? The Libya-haters hate America too. That's clear enough.

Don't let the uncaring folks get you down. It's the caring that matter. From everywhere. We are all Libyans, and we all walk like an Egyptian. (And the Arabs are modeling our principles, so we have a lot in common.) And it won't be only Arabs pretty soon.

It's a virus and it'll spread. There is no doubt of that. But some people will never hear that signal - because they don't want to. That isn't new, it's always been that way. It'll be that way in the Arab world too, just watch.

[ohheckyeah]

58. I'm a baby boomer

and I'll put up my knowledge of technology against yours any day. I'm certainly not scared of changes and I know what's going on.

How insulting.

[davidthegnome]

70. No one here that I can think of hates the Libyan people

On the contrary - I would argue that even those who argue against military intervention are moved by the struggles of the Libyan people. Some of us are still on the fence, like me. I desperately want to save them from being slaughtered - but I don't trust our political motives, our government, or our military leadership to do the right thing. History is important here, we helped armed the Libyan regime in the first place. It could be argued, even fairly perhaps, that as we armed them, perhaps we should help DISARM them.

On the other hand... the people in our government who helped arm them, I think they should lead any present or future military efforts personally - on the ground. Those who fund and control our weapons manufacturing should also be some of the first boots to hit the ground. Ah, for a just world. The thing is, we also once upon a time armed Bin Laden.

No one disputes (I don't think) that the mad dog has gone too far or even that he should go down. No one hates the people of Libya or wants to see them destroyed. Rather, people are cautious and rightfully so, for those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Americans do not all have the things the Libyan people want (though I wouldn't argue that most of us want the same, fairly simple things). We are facing extremely difficult economic times, we are fighting our own oppressive regimes at home - and they are far more powerful than those in Libya, though they have not yet become quite as brutal. Every action has unintended consequences, I am deeply concerned as to what the consequences of our involvement in Libya will ultimately be. It will be wonderful if we help the Libyan people secure what they desperately want and need. Yet.. our track record here isn't so great.

If you haven't read the book or seen the movie, I'd suggest Charlie Wilson's War. It's just one example of how we Americans tend to screw up the end game.

Regarding the internet and modern technology - it is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing, because from all over the world we can now gather and share ideas and thoughts, it is something our ancestors would be in awe of. Were we more enlightened or evolved overall, humanity could put it to such great use... though already I agree we do good things with it. On the other hand - fewer people get together in person now, it is far more difficult than ever before to organize a physical protest that will have some effect on the Nation. This outlet for expression and thought didn't exist in the 60s, though I suppose some used their radios..

I don't think it's either part of the problem or part of the solution. I think it is a tool and how we use it can be either good or bad, like any other tool.

This generational warfare business strikes me as ridiculous. Most of us still want the same things. I understand the passion and the heated debates, but let's all remember that we're on the same side.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Atman]

18. The draft.

People were having their lives disrupted. I lived in Cocoa Beach, between the Kennedy Space Center and Patrick Air Force Base. One of my friends got that tell-tale envelope in the mail with the Selective Service return address. We all knew what that meant! Your number was up. My buddy put the mail back in the mailbox, pretended he never got it, and went down to the AF base to enlist. He avoided Vietnam and instead was sent to Puerto Rico and then to Germany. Anybody with family connections or some smarts was able to get out of it, the poor and a disproportionate number of blacks didn't have a way out, and they got sent to fight. It was when our own troops started shooting at our own kids on our own soil (Kent State) that the shit finally, irreversibly hit the fan.

The trouble is, the military and our government (same thing?) learned a lot from the Vietnam experience. That's why we don't have real reporting from the front lines anymore, only "embeds" who have to clear their stories with command. That's why the GOP and the war machine got busy buying up television stations and news channels -- to control the message. We couldn't have another Walter Cronkite giving America the Dead And Wounded score every night on TV...it was bad for the war effort. They'll never make that mistake again. Now, the get the press on board FIRST, because they'll control the message, just as they did leading into Iraq, just as they're doing now with Libya.

[Siouxmealso]

20. Eliminating the draft

not only eliminated the outrage of civilians who had better things to do with their lives, like go to school, but it eliminated the thousands of draftees who came back bitter and motivated to do something about it.

When you have no skin in the game you have no incentive to take action.

[Bragi]

22. Yep

Ending the draft had the unintended consequence of making it easier for the MIC to go to war.

[socialist_n_TN]

49. It wasn't unintended or at least it wasn't unforseen..........

I remember when the debate over ending the draft was happening and I remember the BEST argument against it was this very thing. It would be easier to slide into a war if the military was all volunteer because nobody else would have a stake in it.

[Cleita]

21. The student population took to the streets because

they were vulnerable to the draft and the media didn't ignore the protests. There were huge protests across the nation and the world in the lead up to the Iraqi invasion yet, the only reporting you saw in our media was talking head selective reports of Bush/Cheney's move to war. If you were a low information news watcher, what you saw was approval of what those war criminals were cooking up.

[FreakinDJ]

25. Propaganda by any other name

[Divernan]

23. Nightly 60" news w/brave reporters in battle areas showing unedited carnage

of both civilians and the US draftees. Walter Cronkite - a commentator you could trust.

[crickets]

35. ^This.

I remember those newscasts, night after night. I distinctly remember the night I asked my Dad what KIA meant, and his hesitation before he told me. The real picture of war was there, right in everyone's faces, not sanitized and PR packaged like it is today. Oh, there was propaganda and spin about why we were there and why we had to stay, but the brutality of the war itself and the human cost on all sides was not hidden from view.

Put the draft on top of that and stir. Boom.

[athenasatanjesus]

24. Music

Unfortunately todays music doesn't inspire much beyond greed,materialism,celebrity worship,and sex peddling.

[RZM]

28. I certainly think that's true when it comes to pop music

But I wonder how large a share of the collective ear the politically conscious artists had back then. Plenty of DUers were around in the 60s-70s and they know more than I do about this, but my sense is that for every protest song, there were dozens of 'Sugar Sugars,' 'Chewy-Chewys,' and 'Incense and Peppermints.'

[onager]

32. Come back with me to 1966...

...when The Beatles released the ground-breaking Revolver, Bob Dylan dropped jaws with the double album Blonde On Blonde, and Brian Wilson of The Beach Boys was driving himself even crazier with Pet Sounds.

On Top 40 radio, you could hear an amazing variety of stuff. That year saw the debut of the following songs, with which we geezers have been tormenting younger generations ever since on our Oldies stations...

Paint It Black by the Rolling Stones, We Can Work It Out/Day Tripper by The Beatles, Reach Out I'll Be There by The Four Tops, California Dreaming by The Mamas & Papas, 96 Tears by ? and The Mysterians, What Becomes of the Broken Hearted by Jimmy Ruffin... and on and on and on.

Even the burgeoning women's liberation movement cracked the Top 40...sort of...with Nancy Sinatra's These Boots Are Made for Walkin'. And Nancy's old man even had a Top 40 hit with Strangers In The Night.

When you turned on the radio, you never knew what you might hear...hardcore Memphis soul, Motown, a one-hit wonder from some garage band in the Midwest, or a carefully confected pop-tart from the old farts in Tin Pan Alley (like that asshole pop-Nazi Don Kirshner, whose experience with The Monkees convinced him to thereafter invent his own bubble-gum bands that he could tightly control).

So...with all THAT going on in 1966...what was the top-of-the-charts, absolute Number One Hit of the Year?

Ballad of the Green Berets by S/Sgt. Barry Sadler.

I rest my case. America - we've always been a nation of easily conned dumbasses.

[RZM]

34. LOL

I was going to bring that up, actually. That was a huge seller that you hardly ever hear about nowadays.

[Snoutport]

56. my dad trained green berets during vietnam...he loved that song...

but he was a democrat :0) being in the service he met African Americans and Latinos and every other race and he came out of the service with an amazing respect for plain old every day people.

[socialist_n_TN]

50. I've been a musician for 45 years and I worked full time.......

at it for 25 of those years and you are correct sir/ma'am. Pop music has ALWAYS been 90+% crap with a splash of good stuff.

ALL of the "protest" music in the 60s/70s started out as "underground" and NOT radio ready. The music was aimed at the part of the population that was ALREADY radicalized and the already radicalized part of the population clamored FOR that music. It was a positive feedback loop, but ONLY for a specific segment of the population. Occasionally a good alternative song would get played on AM radio, but it was rare and it was also cut down from the album version. Where do you think the FM band came into popularity? The VERY few FM stations were the ones that played the album cuts for a small listening audience. The majority listened to the AM band of mostly crap.

[Waiting For Everyman]

47. Yup, exactly right.

Here's one for you, a song by One Republic:

http://youtu.be/ixwx_B38678

It would work just as well in Madison.

[athenasatanjesus]

53. Thanks!

It's been awhile since I've heard a nice new song.

[Waiting For Everyman]

55. Yw, me too - I got it from a tweeter recently.

Now I can't stop playing it, lol. :)

[TheKentuckian]

27. Body bags by the tens of thousands, a much better mass media, and conscription/draft

Also, you didn't have the ton of bricks that is over a generation of Reich Wing domination of the culture and mass consciousness.

[Mimosa]

29. ^ There's the answer ^

The Right Wing has made significant progress in America, heck, even on D.U. Years ago this board was more 'left' than today.

[OHdem10]

31. I fear we must permit the Righties to bring the country to such a

horrible condition that more on the Left really hurt.
At the present even among Democratic Activists, the
majority of them are surviving and not feeling the
real pain of the down turn so they are in no mood
to fight. Also, ( I could be absolutely wrong)
but it sure seems that the Left has been brainwashed
into believing they were wrong in the 60s by being
in the street and fighting. How often have I read
not just at this site but many Democratic Websites,
"What can we do that does not entail marches or going
into the streets?"

For those who are averse to marches etc, may I remind
you--The Tea Party is a minority. Right now they are
running things. Let us watch anc see how much they
have moved the Democrats on the Hill regarding Budget
Cuts. They are now to 33 Billion cuts on the Democratic
Side on the Hill.

At the present I do not see that much fighting back
on the Democratic Side.

[Jumping John]

33. The images of that little naked girl fleeing after the US Air Force napalmed her.

[bobbolink]

36. The BIGGEST force was the draft. So many of you don't like to hear that, but it is the fact.

[TahitiNut]

38. Yup. By my estimate, (MUCH) less than 10% were primarily motivated ...

... by opposition to the war. They just didn't want THEIR asses on the line. (Let the poor and oppressed serve ... as a "ticket" for health care and education they would otherwise be uanable to obtain. Then call it "voluntary" ... just another Big Lie.)

The hue and cry about "fortunate sons" (the narrow privilege that the wealthy and connected enjoyed) went silent when that "privilege" was extended to the majority. So, it wasn't a matter of principle ... just a matter of ENVY.

Appalling.

[bobbolink]

43. Popularity definitely affects response to issues.

When so many draftees started making noise, they were joined by big names like Martin Luther King, Jr, etc.

As those voices were heard, then it affected others, and they joined in. The more popular it became to speak out against the war, the more people spoke out.

When I participated in the giant mobilization march in San Francisco. There was a large contingent of Vietnam Veterans Against the War in front of us, and a HUGE contingent of doctors and nurses behind us. All segments of the population was represented at that march... it had become popular.

Homelessness will never be a real issue in this country until somehow it become popular to work to eliminate homelessness.

[BobbyBoring]

42. Very True

It's hard to imagine how sick one feels when they get a letter in the mail from "Selective service" telling them when and where to report for your physical. Life as you knew it is suddenly thrown out the door. It's really tough when you're 18 and trying to figure out what to do with your life.

For those of you in the 18- 25 YO category, ask yourself question. How would you feel if you suddenly learned that you were

A: Going in the army against your wishs
B: Going to be trained to kill other humans that have done nothing to you.
C: Going to be possibly killed or maimed.

Pretty fucked especially when you consider the fact that someone is waging this war to enrich themselves

[bobbolink]

44. Which is exactly why there needs to be Universal Service.

[struggle4progress]

40. The draft. A media environment, that included realistic coverage of the war. A lot of people

who believed in citizen activism: the civil rights movement made gains, the Berkeley free speech movement made gains, ...

People knew people who were drafted or were in danger of being drafted, folk would turn on the TV and see real war images (not vague reports from approved "embedded" reporters), everybody knew there were activists who wouldn't take "no" for an answer and sometimes won

[bobbolink]

45. To put it another way, the frog boiled.

The pictures of the war were on tv every evening.

Everyone knew someone in danger of being drafted.

We were all involved, and people then had much more of a sense of belonging to a society.. of having connection to others. People today are much more about themselves.

Look what happened in Madison: The frog boiled. It brought out previously uninvolved people. It isn't the most pleasant way to go, but given the level of apathy in this country, it is inevitable that this is what it takes, and it will go better if there are more teapartiers getting their way, affecting more people who then see the light.

The frog will boil again as more and more people are desperately poor and homeless. That will eventually erupt, too, because people just don't give a flying fuck about it now, and when the anger boils over, it won't be pretty.

[WinkyDink]

48. VISUAL IMAGES NIGHTLY.

[MilesColtrane]

74. +1

[WiffenPoof]

51. Draft n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

52. Lots of good answers in this thread and I agree.......

with ALL of them. Better and more independent press, a worldwide anti imperialist fervor, a small but mighty antiwar arts scene, ALL of these had a hand in it. But the biggest thing by FAR was the draft. EVERYBODY, either personally or by knowing somebody, had skin in the game which made it PERSONAL. I remember thinking that MY government was LITERALLY trying to kill me over something I didn't believe in.

That skin in the game aspect is one reason that I think that this latest round of protests is CLOSER to the Vietnam era protests that anything I've seen SINCE Vietnam. When the class war hits home with SO MANY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, you have a movement, not just a protest. We ALL have skin in the class warfare game and more and more people are realizing it daily.

[Major Hogwash]

54. Because the Domino theory was pure bullshit. Just like the "Global War on Terror" is.

Are we supposed to kill every fucking person who hates America?
Most of those people don't even have a boat big enough to sail over here and attack us on our soil.

The draft was the biggest symptom of the disease, the Domino Theory, that if one country turns to Communism, their neighbor will, and their neighbor, and then their neighbor.

"Group Think", run amok.
We've seen it before.
That's why some of us older people recognised it for what it was, right off of the bat!!

[county worker]

59. I'll tell you this, it wasn't the draft! The war went on for 10 years despite the draft!

The My Lai massacre and the Kent State massacre had a lot to do with it along with seeing the war in the news night after night along with the news of the Tet offensive.

I was drafted in 1966 and fought the Tet offensive.

Not even half the people who turned against the war were eligible for the draft. Maybe their sons or brothers were but still that was not the main reason.

I think other than the idea that we weren't spat on, "the draft ended the war myth" is about the biggest bunch of bullshit about Vietnam I have ever heard.

We make a big mistake in trying to look at the 60's and 70's in todays' context. The anti war movement wasn't political and it wasn't generational.

People were fucking sick and tired of seeing man at his worst! The found out that we were not winning and could never win.

[spanone]

60. draft and endless war

your neighbors were dying and the wealthy weasled out

[Canuckistanian]

61. Watching unwilling people being shipped off for an amoral war?

Things like that tend to get people riled.

[Raine]

62. An energized involved younger generation

I'm not up to that kind of thing anymore. It's up to the generations now that have their whole lives to live under this crap or fight for change.

[Curmudgeoness]

63. I will say it again....the draft. And you don't want that reason

to get people moving.

[SoCalDem]

64. Knowing that your 17 yr old son/ brother/ boyfriend/ grandson/ nephew would soon go to war

for no good reason..

[bobbolink]

68. And now it matters less because it is mostly poor people.

[Hannah Bell]

67. "the masses" didn't move even in the vietnam era. a larger percent of the population

was in the streets over bush's push to war with iraq.

but the vietnam era protests got more press; as did the events of the war.

we've been in iraq 8 years now i think & you barely hear about it.

[RegieRocker]

71. Marijuana. That is why they are so dead set against it!

[Oak2004]

72. The protests of the '60's started slowly

Their ancestry was the 1950's civil rights movement in the south. That's where some gained experience and others gained inspiration. As important as these protests were though, we don't talk of the '50's as a time of protest because the protests were localized.

The Berkeley Free Speech Movement is, as nearly as I can identify, the first major protest that one could attribute to the 1960's. Despite myths about the '60's being all about the draft, the Free Speech Movement had little to do with the war. It however had everything to do with students who came back from the South, or who were working with civil rights organizations on campus.

Another important event was of course the founding (or, more accurately, renaming) of the Students for a Democratic Society (1960) and adoption of the Port Huron Statement. That too had little to do with war -- in fact, at the time the Vietnam War was not on anyone's radar. The Port Huron Statement does however reference both the civil rights movement and the Cold War. While the founding of this organization was of little significance at the time, it grew to great significance, and the Port Huron Statement is worth reading as an insight into the thinking of the times.

The force everyone thinks of as a critical force in the protests of the '60's, the hippies, were not primarily a political force. The hippies were a cultural phenomenon (they would have said "countercultural"). Politically active youth were influenced by the hippies, and the radicalization of hippies produced the "yippies", but even to the end there was something of a a gap between the activists and the counterculture folks. But since the hippies are a part of the story of the '60's, I'll mention that "hippie" is simply a variant on "hipster", or beatnik, and the hippie phenomenon was a continuation of the beatniks.

If someone put a gun to my head and demanded that I give them one and only one reason for the 1960's -- only one cause, and I had to get it right-- I probably would say the Cold War and the constant threat of nuclear annihilation. The threat presented by the Cold War existed everywhere, and nowhere more so than in Europe, which was as deeply involved in political protest as was the United States during the period. The Vietnam War was a specific example of the Cold War, one that affected young Americans in terrible ways, but if there had not been Vietnam, I think there would have still been a '60's.

The '10's will not be a rerun of the '60's. Absent from these times is the affluence that colored the actions, practices, and attitudes of those times. Nonetheless I do think there will be a "'10's", and that it has already begun. Egypt and the other revolts are its inspiration. Wisconsin is its Free Speech Movement. Somewhere, toiling in obscurity, are its Students for a Democratic Society (if forced to guess, it would be that we, the netroots, are it, and that DU and Kos and Firedoglake and other sites will become more radicalized and will function as the organizing force of a significant movement). I doubt we'll have our hippies, because it is nearly impossible to have a countercultural movement without affluence, though certainly we will have our artists, and Deep Ecology, a movement with counterculture roots, will play an important role.

The big differences will be the lack of a strong generational component, and the seriousness of the conflict. In the '60's, if you were white, not poor, and could avoid Vietnam, you had the option of going "straight": getting a job working for "the man" and settling down to live a conventional suburban life. Right now, rather than extreme security, we have extreme insecurity -- at any time almost any of us could find everything pulled out from under us. Indeed many of us live each day knowing that one budget cut, one policy change, or one layoff, and we are as good as dead.

I guess my summary is: the sixties did not spring fully formed upon the world. As a movement, it gathered momentum for several years before it became what we think of as "the '60's". There was no one single spark, though Vietnam provided extra motivation for many. In fact I would say that what made the '60's the '60's was that it had no spark -- nothing that could turn it from a radical reform movement into a truly revolutionary movement.

Whether the '10's will be a reform or a revolutionary movement is, probably, right now in the hands of the major parties and the Forbes 400. Do they recognize the suffering and the anger and the urgency and reform, or do they resist? In the latter case, history assures us, they will someday find their heads on a few hundred well-sharpened pikes, because no people have quietly submitted to such extreme inequality for long.

[Snoutport]

88. Thank you so much for sharing!! A very good read.

I appreciate all the thought you gave to my question!

Revolution is sweeping the globe. I do hope it makes it to our shores. :0)

[Snoutport]

77. This conversation has been excellent. THERE IS a song that deserves a place in this current...

people's movement. check it out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=794413&mesg_id=794501

[apocalypsehow]

81. Spring, 1970: Draft is on, Nixon invades Cambodia, massive riots in the street, college shutdowns, &

Kent State shootings.

December, 1972: Draft is off, Nixon launches a massive, sustained air raid on North Vietnam (known as the "Christmas bombings") that lasts for weeks, the protests are few, scattered, and poorly attended.

I'd say the Draft was the motivating principle for many protesters prior to its effective abolishment, and Nixon knew it. Which is why he, of all people, was the one who proposed it be replaced with the Selective Service System, and signed the latter into law.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

82. Bodies. Lots of bodies. Lots of American bodies.

"The war will end when enough bodies come home and the average citizen has to reach into his wallet to support the war." Said to us by a PoliSci professor when we "disrupted" his class in 1968.

[gateley]

87. Lots of American bodies that we were allowed to SEE coming home in flag-drapped

coffins on the news - it made it more real.

I'm disappointed Obama hasn't begun doing that. Maybe he will when they finally decide it's time to call it quits.

[Blue_In_AK]

85. What pushed me into the streets during the Vietnam era

was that people I knew and loved were dying or coming back unrecognizable. It pissed me off.