Becoming exasperated. Someone please name me a politician who "fights"

[Recursion]

Also, please give me an example of this "fighting" behavior.

Finally, please lay out their legislative accomplishments in the past, oh, 5 years or so, and tell me how "fighting" made them possible.

[closeupready]

1. Um Sanders, of course.

George Bush, who got just about everything HE wanted.

[Recursion]

6. How has Sanders "fought"?

Making a long, excellent speech on a day with no votes scheduled?

Inserting enough FQHC funding into HCR that he could hold his nose long enough to vote for it? (And isn't that actually "compromise", rather than "fighting"?)

George Bush, who got just about everything HE wanted.

Again with this. No, he didn't. He managed to just barely get his tax cuts via reconciliation, and he got his war. SS privatization went down in flames. Immigration reform went down in even bigger flames. NCLB and Medicare Part D only happened because he loaded on enough gravy to win over some Democrats (which, if you read conservative blogs and forums, absolutely infuriated his base, too). And what's more, both were classic examples of triangulating: Republicans aren't supposed to expand the role of the Federal government in education and health care; that's what those bills are.

[treestar]

15. Using 911

He did not have to "fight" at all.

[closeupready]

24. True - I think that emboldened some in the Bush administration.

And cowed Democrats who would otherwise have said "No".

So maybe he isn't the best person to name.

Oh, to threadstarter, another Bush "accomplishment":

Bankruptcy Deform

[Recursion]

25. OK, I will grant bankruptcy "reform"

Unfortunately enough Democrats seemed more than willing to go along with it. I wasn't aware of Bush applying any pressure on anyone; are you?

[closeupready]

42. Not with Biden co-sponsoring, no. No real pressure necessary, sadly.

:(

[backscatter712]

2. Bernie Sanders.

He managed to wedge funding for community health centers into the health care bill by leveraging his vote.

That's how you're supposed to do it.

[Recursion]

3. Bernie Sanders, who voted for the compromise-laden HCR?

That's "fighting"? Interesting.

I do agree his nearly-tripling the funding of FQHC's was brilliant, and one of the best parts of PPACA. I don't see how it's "fighting" though; it's the kind of compromise that's getting people so angry here, isn't it?

[moondust]

4. Bernie Sanders. n/t

[Recursion]

8. Was it the excellent speech that isn't keeping the bill from passing that makes him a "fighter"?

Was it sticking enough FQHC funding into HCR that he could stomach voting for it? (Probably not, since that's "compromise", right?)

What is it that makes him a "fighter" to you, and what successes has it lead to (you left that part out).

[Hannah Bell]

20. he voted for it? when?

[Recursion]

32. December 24, 2009, 7:05 am

Senate Roll Call Vote #396

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=111&session=1&vote=00396

"Sanders (I, VT): Yea"

[Hannah Bell]

46. & the connection to this tax bill is -- what, exactly?

[Recursion]

47. Sorry, I thought you were asking when he voted for HCR

Since the post you were responding to was about his voting for HCR.

[Hannah Bell]

49. your post title was apparently about the tax bill, so when you use acronyms

in that context it's a bit confusing.

[Recursion]

50. Apologies

My point was that he inserted enough funding into health care reform for a project he likes (and I like) that he could stomach voting for the bill. Upthread that was called "fighting" but I don't see how it's different from "compromising".

[Hannah Bell]

51. gotcha.

[moondust]

30. Yes, yes. Let's all roll over and be good dogs. n/t

[Recursion]

48. Or, let's all bristle and growl at each other

And never actually get anything passed.

[moondust]

55. This is a calm intellectual exercise only in Washington.

Where millionaires and billionaires blithely grant themselves ridiculous tax cuts with billions of borrowed dollars.

For many Americans it is a very real daily struggle to put food on the table and find shelter and stay healthy enough to go back to work should a job ever materialize. They need somebody who feels their pain and acts decisively on their behalf.

[Recursion]

57. For example, by passing unemployment benefits extensions

you mean?

[moondust]

59. The Indians got $24 for Manhattan Island.

Deal or no deal?

[Recursion]

61. That's a myth

Minuit purchased a concession to live in what is now lower manhattan and fish in the harbor for roughly a few thousand dollars in today's money. It's also a myth that the First Nations had no notion of "owning land"; they did, and they weren't inclined to sell to the Dutch, so they rented out the half of the island they weren't using.

To the point of your analogy, the options were to pass the unemployment extension with the tax cuts, or pass nothing. Which do you prefer?

[moondust]

62. Personally, nothing.

Let them all expire and put together a real stimulus package that has more bang for the buck than tax cuts.

[rucky]

5. Jim DeMint, Mitch McConnell, John Boehner, Eric Cantor

Example of fighting: Holding the unemployed hostage to pass tax cuts for the 2%-ers.
Legislative Accomplishment: About to pass tax cuts for the 2%-ers.

[Recursion]

11. DeMint hates the tax compromise more than we do

But thank you for at least answering all three parts.

So Obama comes to the table with UI extension, high-income tax cut repeal, and inheritance tax resumption as two things he won't do without. McConnell comes to the table with the high-income tax cuts and keeping inheritance tax at 0 as two things he won't do without. Both give up one of their promises and get the rest.

Why is McConnell a "fighter" and Obama a "capitulator" in this scenario?

[Hello_Kitty]

22. I'll give you credit here

At least you're not pretending all the middle class stuff was a "victory" for our side.

[Recursion]

27. No, and neither side was carrying a torch for it

It was just kind of along for the ride.

[Hello_Kitty]

44. I must have imagined that chart the WH has been relentlessly pushing since last week

You know, the one with the blue bar and the red bar where they threw everything that benefits the lower 98% as "what we got", as if none of those things were stuff the GOP likes too.

[Recursion]

45. That's the sales pitch today. Neither party came in claiming it was a line in the sand

But I also imagine both Obama and McConnell would have balked at giving it up.

Edit to make my point at least slightly clear: I think both went in assuming the middle class tax cuts would be extended.

[hfojvt]

65. because he ended up with much bigger gains

for a much smaller group of people http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/123

[treestar]

16. Republicans don't have to "fight"

They can use inertia.

They want the government out of everything.

Further, they stick together. If you value the Democrats not being in lock step, then you have to take the bad with the good, and that's a lack of "fight." You can't have it both ways there. The Democrats could get more of what they want if they stuck together and quit circular firing squads. They don't and so have nothing, or less, to "fight" with.

[Recursion]

18. Actually the tax compromise seems to be undoing that unity

Which is a good sign.

[The Second Stone]

7. George W Bush

and Ronald Reagan fought and got everything they wanted for the rich and powerful.

Now if you asked for someone who fought for the poor and downtrodden and succeeded, then you'd come up with nothing unless you went as far back as FDR.

[Recursion]

10. Why did the majority of W's initiatives fail?

He got his war and his tax cuts. Everything else either went nowhere (immigration reform, ss privatization) or took buying off Democrats by compromising on conservative principles (NCLB, Medicare Part D).

[Hannah Bell]

23. nclb, medicare d - he got what he wanted. they're both crap.

[treestar]

17. False

Why are the tax cuts even expiring? If Bush got all he wanted, they should have been permanent to start with!

And he didn't privatize social security! He admitted in his book he "failed" to get that.

He didn't get Harriett onto the Supreme Court.

[Freddie Stubbs]

39. If Bush had gotten everything he had wanted, his tax cuts would have been permanant and Social

Security would have been privatized.

[Recursion]

40. In fact, using reconciliation was called a "cave-in" on many conservative message boards

Because it means they would come backup for consideration in 10 years. AKA now.

[AngryAmish]

9. Jim Boehner

wait, you said cries, right?

[Recursion]

12. Strong men also cry, Mr. Lebowski

Strong men also... *sob* cry...

[peace13]

13. Sharrod Brown. Solid to the core. n/t

[Recursion]

14. What behavior on his part is "fighting", and what has that accomplished? (nt)

[treestar]

19. LBJ, by getting Democrats to threaten congresspeople with

loss of chairmanships is all I can come up with. That's the only time that question is every really answered around here.

But it seems to be using personal vanity, and does not really seem desirable. It burns bridges and hinders future negotiations.

And LBJ did not get his own second term. some say that is because of Viet Nam. Well then why didn't he "fight" that the same way.

Giving people ultimatums and just generally being unpleasant to them, threatening them with losses is better than just letting the Republic function as it was supposed to, in these views.

[moondust]

26. FDR.

[Recursion]

29. Threatening to pack SCOTUS?

Or are you thinking of something else?

[saracat]

33. "burns bridges, hinders future negotiations" Boehner stated there will never be "compromise"

Funny, he doesn't worry nor does the GOp about those things.And LBJ accomplished a great deal legislatively and it wasn't , for the most part on wimped out compromise. But he cost us the South, and that has proved to a be a defining element of the Democratic Party. We carved out our message of equality, standing with the poor, and protecting the middle a class. We were the Party of the people. It took till 2010 to erase our message.

[Recursion]

36. Right.... Boehner, whipping the tax compromise in his caucus...

...says there will be "no compromise".

[saracat]

41. Because he knows it isn't one.

[Recursion]

43. Then why is nearly half of his caucus in an uproar?

Republicans sure seem to feel like it's a compromise and that McConnell is a RINO who "caved".

[saracat]

53. Most DC GOPers are thrilled. Funny anecdote, a GOP fed was talking to a DC friend on mine

yesterday about how they and many others felt "sorry" for the president , and how abused he was by his own party and what a decent , resonable man he was. They said they thought he had turned out to be a much better president than they had thought. My friend said, "Do you like him enough to vote for him? " The answer" certainly not".

[treestar]

66. So LBJ is not the total hero after all?

I thought he was so tough he never compromised, and that meant he got all the progressives wanted/

Why didn't he get single payer? ?????????

[BzaDem]

21. You are assuming people who want a "fight" actually care about legislative accomplishments.

But that's wrong. They care much more about whether they are being "fought for" than what the result of the fight is. It's all about their conscience -- not about reality.

[meow mix]

28. depends what you call an "accomplishment" we havent had any imo

the rightwing is getting it all. anyone ok with that is obviously on thier side

[BzaDem]

34. Well that's another thing. Not only do people not care about actual accomplishments -- they even

deny that current accomplishments have actually occurred!

To them, the only possible accomplishment is one that happens to have zero chance of ever happening!

This is a perfect example why Obama is right to ignore people who want "fights" rather than reality.

[Hello_Kitty]

31. It's also about public perception

Much of the public thinks Democrats are weak spineless flip-floppers. Which doesn't help us much come election time. Look where the legislative accomplishments of the last session got us in the House this past November. What did we lose? 63 seats? That's not to detract from those accomplishments but the sales job on them sucked.

[BzaDem]

37. Yes the sales job on them sucked. I would agree there. But are you sure that ANY sales job wouldn't

have had the same result in this economy?

[flvegan]

35. Maybe if we had more than 3 or 4 Dem "fighters" at any given time

their legislative accomplishments would be more plentiful. Rather, they're surrounded by spineless hacks and bought-n-paid for speedbumps.

[Recursion]

38. Why don't more win elections? (nt)

[flvegan]

52. Now we're back to bought-n-paid for, aren't we? (nt)

[Recursion]

54. The people who want elected officials to "fight" are, I think, small in number

And are mostly the most activist edges of the parties.

When you ask people, at least, what they want, they say they want politicians who will compromise and reach across the aisle. Maybe that's complete BS; I don't know. But I suspect it's a real (and in many ways wise) desire on most people's part.

[mdmc]

56. Most of the GOP

and Bernie Sanders

[Recursion]

58. Tell me what you mean?

Bernie Sanders, who didn't stop the bill?

The GOP, who are being furiously whipped by their leadership into voting for a compromise they hate? Who couldn't even stop Health Care Reform?

[mdmc]

68. the GOP

who got the rich tax cuts, and got business more customers by extending unemployment..

The health care bill is a GOP wet dream - sure they bitch..

[MilesColtrane]

60. K&R for a thoughtful discussion

[MrScorpio]

63. How about one who gets results?

I'd rather not have any Don Quixotes.

[deaniac21]

64. Congressman Preston Brooks...

May 22, 1856 may have been the worst day in the history of the United States Senate. Late that afternoon, after both houses had recessed for the day, a young South Carolina congressman named Preston Brooks strode forcefully into the Senate chamber looking for Massachusetts Senator Charles Sumner. The Senate floor was nearly deserted, but Brooks saw Sumner sitting alone at his desk, preparing a stack of pamphlets for mailing.

Without warning, Brooks rushed forward and began beating the unsuspecting Sumner savagely with a gold-tipped wooden cane. Even after knocking the older man to the ground, Brooks continued raining down blows upon Sumner's bleeding head and defenseless body, only stopping when his cane shattered into pieces. Finally, after perhaps the most shocking few minutes in the history of Congress, Brooks turned and walked calmly out of the chamber, leaving Sumner bloodied and unconscious.

Charles Sumner nearly died of the wounds he suffered that day. And though he eventually regained consciousness and returned—following three years spent recovering from his injuries—to the Senate, he suffered for the rest of his life from intense headaches and what we would now call post-traumatic stress disorder

[Name removed]

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