Has anyone else noticed the sea change in attitude about classes in America

[tavalon]

A year ago, you would have heard that we are a classless country or at least, only a middle class. In the last couple of months, I've seen more posts about class issues and the reality that there are truly two or more Americas (to quote Edwards) and that it's time to rein in the rich.

Seeing so much of that here means, to me, that we are beginning to see class consciousness rise, first in the intellectual areas such as this cauldron of information but soon and actually, I think, right now, it's going to dawn on Ma and Pa Midwest just who is and who isn't their ally.

I think we are on the brink of some interesting and hopefully good changes in the way we run this country. They call Obama a socialist. I'm a socialist, I know socialists, Obama is no socialist. But America needs socialism and I think people are actually beginning to see why.

[Davis_X_Machina]

1. Jay Gould's...

boast held true -- "I can always hire half the working class to kill the other half." -- when things for the working class were much, much worse than they are today.

We're not even remotely close to a rebirth of class-consciousness in this country. Rather the reverse. The US is the Saudi Arabia of false consciousness -- world's largest producer, world's largest proven reserves.

If U6 goes to 40%, maybe. And then only if the anger isn't dissipated by a search for scapegoats.

[Juche]

45. Sadly, I think I agree

Much of the rage that should go to a bottom up class warfare will be redirected by the plutocrats and their enablers at scapegoats. Namely illegal (mexican) immigrants, black people, single mothers, liberals who support regulation, etc.

So who knows. When a society collapses I think you'll see the rise of both far right and far left movements (as an example, Germany in the early 30s saw Communism & Fascism rise along with the more moderate social democrats). The left supports class struggle and egalitarianism, the right supports nationalism and indirectly supports the plutocrats.

[SpiralHawk]

2. "Only smelly American proles would be interested in such realities." - Rush DraftDodger Limbaugh (R)

"When you are getting your grubby paws on $40 million a year in Republicon payola to spout propaganda, that kinda shit -- reality -- is of no interest whatsoever. We Republicon Homelander 'eeeleete' cronies are too freaking busy adding up our tax breaks (smirk) and our record-breaking profits. You little people -- you smelly American proles -- can just go pound sand and STFU. Sneer."

- Rush DraftDodger Limbaugh (R)

[Newest Reality]

6. If that cigar had Corporatism printed on it,

that picture would be a perfect, but possibly censored picture. He is enjoying it and it is very symbolic, in this case.

[SpiralHawk]

9. Rush is the embodiment of Republicon Family Cesspool Values

With his draft dodging, pill-popping, and lie telling.

[Newest Reality]

3. Yes, I have.

And I've also heard more ruminations about revolt and revolution, though, not necessarily as anything but the expression of a need for The People to explore their options and consider what needs to be done.

Our terminology may shift also. We have a new Underclass, and that is usually considered to refer to those who have become Untouchables, i.e., the destitute and homeless. If we could forge and embrace language that unifies the "Middle-class" and the Underclass, (because it is becoming obvious that anyone under the Elite level is no longer secure and could fail) then we may be able to turn the tide, despite the corporate media infusions of divisive and destructive rhetoric and propaganda.

Solidarity is our hope. Unity, in increasing degrees, is our true power. Otherwise, it is business as usual and more and more people can see, clearly, where that will lead us all.

[tavalon]

4. That's my thought too

[socialist_n_TN]

7. That's because these people are beginning to see

that it's NOT out of the realm of reality that they TOO could become homeless with just a LITTLE bit of bad luck.

I have a pretty broad definition of "working class". I use it for anybody who's not one of the elite exploiters. Or not one of those elite's toadies.

[tavalon]

12. Yeah, the fear is in the air

May it insight us to anger and action rather than capitulation.

[pscot]

19. Let's hope the new realities

provide the insight to incite constructive reactions. Just sayin'. B-)

[Davis_X_Machina]

11. But will they act? And what if there is no 'us' and 'we'?

Will the peasants, so to speak, with their torches and pitchforks, on their way to the castle, be routed first through the 'darker' parts of town, and then the neighborhood near the university, and then the arts district, and slowly lose momentum? Forget where they were going in the first place?

Provided they're not all at home watching Dancing with the Stars in the first place.

In the 1930's capitalism survived much higher un- and underemployment rates here, and in France, and in the UK, and in Scandinavia and the Low Countries essentially unchanged -- leashed a bit, fenced in a bit, but unchanged.

With roughly half the impetus for change, and the common man dosed with ten times the anesthetic of those days, it's not surprising there's no forward progress. You'd expect things to go backwards for the working class, and they have.

[socialist_n_TN]

13. Well the focus during these last couple of months.........

has NOT been distracted into the "other". The wider the movement becomes of course, the more that IS a danger, but that's where we come in. People who KNOW what's happening have to keep the focus ON what's really happening.

WE have to become the "vanguard party" of the working class. Educate and agitate.

[Davis_X_Machina]

16. The political value to the conservative movement...

...of bashing away at 'elites' all the time is to discredit the mere existence of any sort of 'vanguard'.

Clever, that.

[socialist_n_TN]

29. Sure. That's actually been the meme for 40 years or so........

The "liberal, ivory tower elites" who think they're better and smarter than you. Well, I think that more and more average people are waking up to the fact that yep, they WERE smarter than us because they recognized this assault on the working class FIRST.

But it doesn't really matter who saw it first because the class war IS being waged and THAT'S what the main focus of this uprising in the working class actually IS. The recognition of the FACT of the class war, in living technicolor, in EVERY worker's life brought to you by Scott Walker, Rick Scott, Kacish, and every other Republican governor and legislature out there. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, no matter WHAT Faux Noise says.

What this actually boils down to is that IF we are in the beginning phase of a rising class consciousness, it is just THAT, the beginning stages. We won't know if it's a sea change in attitudes or a passing fad for a while, but I'm encouraged. DU has gone from a left leaning site with mostly a capitalist mind set to socialist in a little over a year. I don't think that DU is alone in this change. Thanks to Republican overreach , it's happening everywhere, even to the cop on the beat. We'll just have to see if it lasts.

[Davis_X_Machina]

38. There have been enough dawns of a new era...

...just in my lifetime to fill a calendar month.

Color me skeptical. This is a profoundly non-revolutionary, risk-adverse, fissiparous country. Even a ruling class with the manifest incompetence of ours has been able to split, co-opt, divert, distract or drown out anything that looks remotely social-democratic, never mind out-socialist.

It's not even easy to keep it moving in countries with a very different tradition. Tories have had #10 for twice as many years as Labour since the war. The SPD's record v. the CSU/CDU is similar.

[socialist_n_TN]

39. Well honestly politically it's because we don't have.....

(at least in this country) separate parties. We have ONE bourgeoisie/capitalist party divided into two wings divided mostly over SOCIAL issues. Some party, IF THEY WANTED TO, could grab hold of the left economic populist banner and run with it and probably win some elections. But the obviously don't WANT to run on this type of platform.

In GB, even though it's parliamentary, it SEEMS there are STILL only two wings of the corporatist party, the Tories and Labour. And just like Dems and Reps, they swap out, but the CORPORATIST are STILL in charge, no matter WHICH party holds the reins of government.

[Davis_X_Machina]

42. You've got at least five parties, not one.

There actually is a democratic-left-labor party, which votes Democratic. It's protectionist, isolationist, and mildly statist.

There's a liberal-democratic party. It's pro-free trade, interventionist in foreign affairs, mildy anti-statist.

There's a Poujadiste, small-business-and-farmers party. It's vaguely technocratic, but anti-free trade, agnostic on imperialism, tending isolationist but jingoistic by reflex.

There's a right-nationalist American Tory party, which votes Republican. It's pro-free trade, unabashedly imperialist, and statist, but not in a good way

There's a Christian social party, which is more-or-less indifferent to trade issues, schizoid on foreign policy, and integralist, not really buying the separation of Church and State. Ethnic Reagan democrats, southern evangelicals, Mormons, the mainstream Protestants not wealthy enough to be in the country club.

In this country, though, we form the coalitions, and then fight the elections, not the other way around, as in Europe. So it looks like there's only two parties. But they're endlessly shifting coalitions.

[socialist_n_TN]

55. RE: GB political parties........

I know there are several (I don't see a true socialist party in your list BTW) different parties in GB, but would it be factual to say that the primary governing parties (senior coalition parties) since Thatcher anyway, have been the Tories and Labour? I'm honestly asking, as I don't keep up with British politics like I do with the American brand.

And even with all those parties aren't they all just representatives of the beourgeosie/capitalist system? IOW, there doesn't seem to be anything there that offers a different SYSTEM than what we already have. Maybe a different EMPHASIS in that system, but not a different SYSTEM.

[socialist_n_TN]

5. Kick. I agree...........

People are FINALLY developing a class consciousness in this country. It's about fucking time! :) I see it every day from teachers, to nurses, even to cops and firefighters. People who a year ago wouldn't relate to the term "working class" at all are throwing the term around in conversation. The term "class war" or "class struggle" is no longer verboten in everyday conversation. I also think that contract workers, i.e., the nominally "self employed" (because no company will hire as a full time employee) are beginning to KNOW who's side they're on.

Even Marxists are no longer just a part of the intelligentsia. More and more Marxists actually ARE part of the working class unlike in the past in this country.

Interesting times indeed.

[fascisthunter]

8. Look up Raavi Batra

[coalition_unwilling]

10. If I remember correctly, Lenin introduced the distinction between

a class "in itself" (economic class exists irrespective of whether there is class consciousness) and a class "for itself" (a class fully aware of its relationship to the means of production and to other classes and acting in its class' interests).

I think we're in a transition zone right now from the former to the latter. I give a large part of the credit to Wisconsin as the immediate catalyst. Interesting times indeed.

[high density]

All I see is a war amongst the middle class

Instead of having an argument to improve the middle class to the standard of a public union worker, the teabaggers are fighting to bring everybody down to their level.

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. I see three Americas.

[Fuzz]

15. ‘Remember, Remember the 5th of November’

[gulliver]

17. It might be the "spending cuts"

I think that focuses people. In Republican slang, the phrase "spending cuts" means "kicking deadbeats off the dole." Who could not want that? But then Republicans go to do spending cuts in real life and, whoops, there aren't very many deadbeats after all. It's all this spending that we do on normal people that might have to go.

Republicanism rarely stands up to the reality test. It's all based on anecdotes, gut biases, and shooting from the hip. Never allow a Republican leader near anything dangerous or easy to break.

[TheKentuckian]

18. I hope so but feel it is still a good ways from fruition. There is still plenty of "middle class"

claptrap being spouted not only by politicians trying to manage and maintain the charade, the media doing the same, most people on the streets who still think they are hanging on to even a sizable chunk of purported liberals in the blogospere.

There is still too little of a grasp that we are all the same class and it sure as fuck ain't middle. Too little understanding that the homeless person their snooty asses looked down their nose at, the teacher they think has it too easy, the waitress with tears in her eyes from how shitty her tips where, the struggling graduate who can't find a job that pays enough to support themselves and pay their loans, the small business owner who can't get the short term credit needed to bid a contract, the soldier, the professor down at the U, the traveling sales man, the mother trying to figure out how to spread too little butter over way too much bread, the IT guy trying to keep pace with the next stream of graduates and the influx of cheaper labor brought in from overseas, the mailman, the truck driver, the marketing middle manager, the CSR, and even the often cursed pro athletes all share the same struggle.

Until we from the most comfortable lackeys that still must work for their daily bread to the lady you see pushing a cart and wonder how she came to such a pass understand that we are forced to fight each other for a share of the literal crumbs left by greedy and insatiable hogs then we will continue to play their game.

[bobbolink]

24. That's scary. People who think there is no difference between homeless people and middleclass

people are in a world of delusion.

[TheKentuckian]

27. That is not what I said. I said we share the same burden and would have more accurately said

that we have a common enemy that is at the roots of our seemingly diverse issues.

I certainly understand the day to day issues are drastically different between a homeless person and a middle manager at the next company to lay off, having been both in my time but the villains at the root of those different ails.

[bobbolink]

28. Of course we share those things, but unless and until middleclass "progressives" actually start

including us, none of that matters.

They are cooperating quite well with that enemy in keeping us separate.

[TheKentuckian]

32. That was my point.

The "middle class" needs to understand it doesn't exist, for practical purposes.

They are separated from the bottom of the shitpile by a few checks and however long it takes the bank to throw them into the streets.

The wealth disparity will crush us all under right along with the capture and subversion of all branches and levels of government. Those at the bottom get the brunt and catch it first but the bottom expands just a hair slower than the speed of light. All too soon the false middle will evaporate underneath of those caught up in it. Then the curtains will rise and the illusions will drift off like a mist and reveal and massive underclass, a few ultra-wealthy and their scared, pliable, and very fortunate minions dispersed around the globe that will be sufficient for their consumer base.

[bobbolink]

61. That's part of it. The other part is no longer caring about "the other".

I just got this quote today, and it applies here:

"Every now and then I think about my own death, and I think about my own funeral. ... Every now and then I ask myself, 'What is it that I want said?' I'd like somebody to mention that day, that Martin Luther King Jr., tried to give his life serving others. I'd like for somebody to say that day, that Martin Luther King Jr., tried to love somebody."
- Martin Luther King Jr., from his sermon "The Drum Major Instinct"

Today's middleclass doesn't think it needs to "serve" anyone or love anyone except themselves.

There are a few exceptions, but that is pretty much the rule.

Until that changes, a whole lot of "others" are going to be shit outta luck.

And the suffering and deaths don't matter.

[Starry Messenger]

20. I think the lower class has always known this was not a classless society.

I think the sea change has been-how to put this delicately-among people who never had to notice before. The degradation is beginning to touch the comfortable and chickens are coming home to roost.

[Hydra]

26. You don't have to put it delicately :P

It's all about the pain level. People who have been bitten by the system hard enough know there's something wrong. Something deep, systemic and not fixable. Something inhuman below the mask.

For whatever reason, the "fear" you mentioned doesn't seem to translate into reality until the pain level is appropriate. Maybe we as a species have learned how to ignore reality?

[bobbolink]

34. Yet, they will gladly sacrifice us first. Which is currently happening, and you may have noticed

the absence of outrage.

Delicately?

Those of us on the bottom are now imploding... taking it out on ourselves.

Eventually, we, too, will EXPLODE, and those explosions are NEVER delicate. So, the longer they wait to recognize us, the bigger the EXPLOSION.

[spin]

21. In a decade or two, we may only have two classes, the rich and the poor ...

What the rich have to understand is that in history this situation has occurred many times and always ends up badly for the rich. It would be wise for them to share the wealth than to continue their attempt to hoard all of it.

A strong middle class is important for the survival of this country.

I was discussing this theory with an immigrant from the old Soviet Union. He agreed that the middle class was important but pointed out that currently most Americans are so satisfied with their iphones, satellite TV, cars and other material possessions that they are unlikely to force change.

He said, "When most have nothing, then most have nothing to lose."

[Curmudgeoness]

22. Only the wealthy are allowed to cry class warfare.

We are always picking on them. But if we try to say that they are waging war on the middle and lower classes, we are warmongering.

Hypocrisy 101.

[socialist_n_TN]

31. And this very piece of blatant hypocrisy is one reason........

that I think we ARE seeing a rise in class consciousness. What you mentioned was the conventional wisdom as little as a year ago. Not so much now. Oh, you still hear it from Faux Noise and the other usual suspects, but the theme of class war is getting out there among the average worker and among the poor. Of course, the poor have known it all along, but it's seeping up from the worst off into what used to be called the middle class. AND IN EXACTLY THOSE TERMS, i.e., class war and class struggle.

There are articles/op-eds in major newspapers. It's all over the blogosphere. You see it on the posts here on DU. Hell, I'm even hearing southern union leaders talking about class warfare. And in the labor movement as a whole, there's no one more (relatively) conservative than a southern union leader. We'll see if it has staying power, but it's DEFINITELY getting some traction at this moment.

[Curmudgeoness]

41. Funny you should mention all the stories in the media about this.

It occurs to me that the media that we all seem to hate (left and right seem to be united in this) are reporting a lot of information about CEO wages and companies who are paying no taxes, etc. And isn't this really the fuel for class warfare? If we were not having this thrown in our faces all the time, I have a feeling that we would not be thinking about it.

So, what is the motive? I always think that they know what they are doing and where they are steering us.

[socialist_n_TN]

46. Maybe. It wouldn't be the first time we were "steered"......

But where are we being steered? Got any ideas about that?

[Curmudgeoness]

48. I will sound like a conspiracy kook if I say this, and I am not

usually into conspiracy. But I have been wondering if they are trying to get us pissed off enough to act, and when we act, they will have excuses to put us down. Have you thought about what our government would do if we would pull the same thing that Egypt did? I have. And they would be more like Gadhafi than Mubarak.

[socialist_n_TN]

56. I agree that it probably would be more violent.........

It's almost inevitable with the number of guns available in the USA. However, there is ONE area that most people aren't even putting into the calculations when we talk about stuff like this and that's the economic mess that would occur.

There will be a HUGE economic cost TO THE CAPITALISTS of any sort of mass revolutionary activity in this country. We run on debt and there's a HUGE amount of debt out there, held by the Wall St. banks and their subsidiaries. If every progressive/socialist stopped paying that debt, it would cause a huge disruption in their profits. And profits are what the capitalists care about to the exclusion of everything else.

I hate to say it, but as a mental exercise, I'll bring this up as a tactic. IF it did get hot, I'd say burn down or otherwise destroy the properties of the capitalists AND THE PEOPLE WHO SIDE WITH THEM. It's like a general strike. You make it hurt by preventing even people who WANT to scab from being able to do so. How many people are going to pay for a burned out home, even if there is still a mortgage on that burned out home? Now obviously, this would be rental properties, commercial buildings, NOT primary residences.

Yes, it would get messy, including for capitalist profits. That's why I don't really think that this particular conspiracy is a viable one. No, I think you just have a few in the MSM and more in the blogasphere who are seeing the inequality and reporting on it.

[Curmudgeoness]

70. Actually, an armed and ugly revolution would hurt all of us.

It isn't just the capitalists who would suffer, although I agree they would suffer greatly. But every place that revolution has occurred has had an upheaval of the economy that has hurt all people. And the poor are hurt as much as the wealthy. If property like rentals and manufacturing is destroyed, people will lose places to live and work to build the economy back up.

I have always advocated working from the inside for change, as well as peaceful resistance. Anything else will disrupt much more than it helps. And the wealthy will flee, so they will not be affected nearly as much as the people who are left behind. And don't think for a minute that the wealthy are not devested in so many areas that the investment hit they would take is not nearly what you would hope or expect.

I hope that you are right that it is just a matter of seeing and reporting, but it is much more than a few in the MSM reporting this. It is everywhere.

[bobbolink]

62. I've thought about that a lot, and I think your assessment is absolutely correct.

I even think that is part of the reason some don't like any US intervention.

[Curmudgeoness]

72. I really hope I am not correct. It scares the hell out of me

to even think that there is a plan to push us too far. But you watch the arrogance that is obscene, the hits that the poor will be taking with major cuts in vital services, and middle class losing ground, and you have to wonder. Are they really just clueless and think that they really do deserve to be treated differently and paid handsomely? Or are they rubbing it in our faces so they can point fingers and say that something must be done to keep our society safe from us? You know how it goes---fear fear fear. Make people fearful of all the rest of the people.

[bobbolink]

73. For quite a while yet to come, poor people are imploding.. taking it out on ourselves.

The suicide rate is rising rapidly, and that is exactly what they want.

AND, make no mistake... by "They" I am NOT meaning only the RW.. this is Dems in power, too.

Since my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days, protesting against the Vietnam war, I have known about provocateurs, and I know they not only exist, but abound. I certainly hope there are trainings in protest for those who are new to it, because *that* is where the danger is.

Maybe they have been ignoring the protests in the media precisely because they want to up the frustration level, so there will be some who will respond to the provocateurs. I really wouldn't doubt that.

However, since this is now only about the middleclass, it doesn't include me, so it is not my worry.

Oh welllllllllllll.............

edited to add: here is the clue:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x811588

But again, I haven't been included in the party, so it isn't my worry.

[Curmudgeoness]

75. Don't be so hard on the so-called middle class.

I actually am not in the middle class, definitely at the low end of the working class, but I get by. But I care about the people who are not getting by, and the fight as I see is as much about protecting programs that help the poor as much as helping the middle class. Actually, I think that the "middle class" is doing just fine. I believe that this is one of those psychological things, where everyone believes that they are middle class, no matter how low on the totem pole that they are. It is really a fight for the poor and working classes that I see happening right now.

[bobbolink]

76. That's not the view from below. Sorry you think I am "being hard on the middleclass". That's

pretty much what white people thought during the Civil Rights struggles.

It is pretty much what a lot of straights thought about the Gay Rights struggles.

It is pretty much what men thought about the women's struggles for equal rights.

Its time now to pay attention to THIS struggle, and get over the ego.

[Curmudgeoness]

77. You are ignoring the whites who fought in the Civil Rights movement,

or the straights who linked arms with the gays, or the men who sided for women's rights. It isn't everyone who is unconcerned about the poor and struggling. You are focussed on the people who ignore your plight instead of noticing the people who are fighting with you.

What do you expect of us? What more should we be doing? (This is not a put-down, this is a real question.)

[bobbolink]

78. OK, then, let's take it from the other side. There are a precious FEW who are involved..... could

you please point out the ones I am missing?

And, no, I don't want to hear about charities. The Madison Movement isn't asking for charity, and neither are we. We want JUSTICE, the same as you do.

So, please, tell me WHO is combating the ignorance. Which "progressive" media people are educating the middleclass about the facts of poverty?

What part of the Madison Movement has focused on poverty?

Besides the few organizations that are devoted solely to poverty, what national groups are including poor people?

Take it from that side, and show me just how involved middleclass people are.

[bobbolink]

23. Really? Can you point out where the middleclass has suddenly become conscious of us poor folk?

I don't see it.

And I don't hear it.

Its all "middleclass", "middleclass", "middleclass".

On both DU and on "progressive" medica, it is "middleclass", "middleclass", "middleclass".

Yes, there are cries of "Solidarity", and "We Are ONE", but a close look shows the same thing... "middleclass", "middleclass", "middleclass".

Poor people at DU see this, and so do poor people in the larger society.

[Curmudgeoness]

40. It is true that the middle class has not become enlightened

in regard to the poor. What they are seeing is that they are getting closer to the poor than they want to get. But this is not totally a bad thing. In the fight against the wealthy getting everything, they are more aligned with the poor, which can only help the poor at the same time they are helping themselves. We all have to find allies wherever we can.

[bobbolink]

43. It doesn't help us at all. We will all be long dead before that scenario happens.

We are sacrificing it all for the middleclass.

Is the middleclass grateful for that?

I sincerely doubt it.

Nor will the deaths matter.

[reggie the dog]

51. Not all of us forgot you

Universal health insurance or health car, a true social welfare system, a dramatic public job creation program (far better for moral of people to find a useful task for them that they can be proud of preforming than to give handouts), dramatic increase of the minimum wage, and an improvement in schools complete with free universities are needed to address the issue of poverty because poverty is horrible and has a horrible effect on the well being of people.

[bobbolink]

53. Yes, there are a few DUers who consistently work against poverty.

Those things you listed... those are from the PAST. If you are aware of NOW, you know that all those things have undergone cuts in the last few years, and are scheduled for MORE cuts.

Does it matter?

[reggie the dog]

58. yes it does

and i am very angry that the democrats in the legislative and executive branches at the federal level support cuts to these programs, they are the left, they should strengthen the social welfare state, create state jobs and the like

[bobbolink]

59. I'm glad to hear your anger! I would appreciate it if you would take the next step

and contact "progressive" media and TELL them of your anger at these cuts, and of silence about the cuts and poverty in general on "progressive" media.

I would consider that great support, and would appreciate it. We need to have voices in our behalf.

Thank you.

ps... one of my favorite dancers is named Reggie. I don't suppose that would be you? :)

[reggie the dog]

63. i dont live in america anymore

do you have an example of progressive media? la bas que j'y suis is a french radio show on public radio and the guy has an answering machine that you call and leave a message and he plays the ones he likes on the air. i have called but with my accent not made it on but pretty much all his callers on the left here in france talk about how free trade is ruining the economy, that the social escalator is not working anymore, that the poor are fiding it harder and harder to pay the rent and eat.

I go on strike and go demonstrate nearly each time my union asks me to and it is often not for anything to do with salary, it has to do with reforms which hurt the quality of public education, public services, the welfare state, and poor and middle class people. in the 8 years i have lived in France i have probably done at least three dozen demonstrations and that is a low estimate. I also have done teach ins, taken part in numerous public disccussions, blocked major highways, and the like in an effort to preserve the social welfare state and make it better. I also love talking politics and dont hold back around right wingers when it comes to blowing their "ideas" to shit when they are wrong. like when they say that poor people are lazy i talk about the whole underpaid working poor, those unable to work due to lack of enough jobs in the country and those unable to work due to physical or mental conditions. I try to get them to think of how creating jobs for as many people as possible and providing child care and pre school for all our kids (free like public schools are)then not only would people get a sense of pride from being paid well for a job well done (there have got to be jobs many handicapped people can do but their is little incentive for businesses to hire them in todays world as they are seen as "headaches" so the govt should step in and creat jobs for them to showcase their utility for society. that makes people feel good about themselves. these jobs could involve providing great social services for EVERYONE! I am the guy in my crowd who gets shit from his friends for "too often" talking politics.

working people have been so denigrated that many people actually think that some jobs are "so low" that the workers doing them DESERVE to be poor. with such mentalities it is hard to get people to comprehend that in the vast majority of cases people are poor through no fault of their own and that poverty should be done away with. in a country as rich as the USA there is no good reason that poverty still exists. but our government would rather invest in bombs, guns, tanks, death, destruction, a war on drugs, helping bail out banks, and corporate welfare than it would in creating jobs that paid 40 000 a year.

[bobbolink]

64. I don't suppose you would consider coming back here? ^_^ Thank you for your advocacy!!!

I didn't know from your other posts that you are in France, so that may explain why you didn't know that the middleclass here in the US simply doesn't recognize poverty.

I WISH that there were middleclass people here taking poverty as seriously as you seem to do! It would have made a difference, and we wouldn't have fallen so far behind had we been receiving that kind of support.

Here is one of the Action posts by a friend of mine, and we would certainly welcome your help with this effort.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/GreenPartyVoter

It sounds like you not only have a lot of good ideas for Action, but have experienced them, as well. I hope you will do an OP about them.... we need to hear these things!

Thanks again! :yourock:

[reggie the dog]

67. i grew up in the states

and lived in middle class suburbia until i was 24 and finished my MA, i then moved to France and although i have never found a well paying job here i do love the class conciousness that exists here in france, words like "working class" or "worker" and "bourgeois" and "the owning class" are quite common. our motto in france is liberté, égalité, fraternité and the left here is really a left and they often talk about the fight against poverty, the growing gap between the wealthy and the rest of us. If you are poor here in France you have a place to live in the projects which are in better shape than the projects in chicago and far far far less violent. all public schools are funded relatively well and equally per student with schools in areas with "problems" getting a bit more money. our high school diploma involves passing a state centralized test so all people who get the diploma are equally considered for college admission as they all have the same diploma whether they went to school in the ghetto or in a rich area. Health care is a RIGHT FOR EVERYONE. Universities have tuition, for poor people their kids must pay 4 euros a year but that is set to rise to 5 euros per year in 2012. middle class people pay 300 a year in tuition for their kids. The extreme left here divided into a union which runs candidates, a modern communist party and an old school trotskyist communist party get between 15and 20 percet of votes and our mainstream left party is the socialist party which gets about 30% of the votes, (the greens get 15 to 20 precent too and are mostly on the left). hell the left is so powerful here in france that the right wing UMP party is way way way left of the Democrats.


The last big strike i did was against raising the retirement age. I have struck to help a family of illegal immigrants in the tiny town i live in get their papers, i have participated in protests against decentralizing our high school diplomas, i have protested against cuts to our social welfare state and proudly wear the red and black colors of my union (SUD) when i march. I have gone 1600 km round trip in a day in the train to protest cuts to the education and public hospital system in the capital in Paris. I love france because people get off their ass and move here. Most of the left here gets the idea that you cannot let people fall through the cracks. Hell here in France we have had a protest for an alcoholic woman who cant pay her rent because she drinks too much but we protested because everyone deserves a house, having a roof is a right here in france and alcoholism is a disease, not a moral fault.

What gives me hope is seeing mass protests in places like madison, this is the kind of action that brings awareness. The idea that the already poor have to help get out is that by raising the standard of living at the bottom we can not only limit how far one can fall out of the middle class, but actually help make the middle class stronger by adding millions of previoulsy poor to the ranks of the middle class. hell that would create lots of jobs in the usa especially if we opened new factories in the usa to produce what we consume. of course i want to see the same here in france too.

you may be surprised to find out how many members of the solid middle class want to work to eliminate poverty because they were told about camelot by their parents or grandparents and know that wealth needs to be divided differently in the usa. the problem is that there are very few elected officials like cynthia mckinney or dennis kucinich or jesse jackson who actually stick up and fight for poor people. so us good hearted and good intentioned people vote the lesser of 2 evils by voting corporate lite as there is no longer a political party which stands for the poor, the working class and the middle class.

at least you can say class warfare in france and get nods of approval, in the usa people think you are crazy.

[reggie the dog]

50. here is how they are suddenly becoming conscious of the poor

their kids are poor, they see that their kids have more education or the same level of education but a far lower standard of living. they see their kids being forced to live at home well into their twenties due to cost of living and the low wages that the kids get today compared to a generation ago. family by family the middle class is waking up when their kids either are no longer middle class or had to get a masters degree to have a similar living standard with their high school diploma holding parents. I grew up in suburbia and was out of touch with reality until i went to the university in downtown chicago at UIC and actually made friends with poor people attending university on student loans and after i was invited to parties and meals in their neighborhoods. after the university i really understood as i have never made more than 25000 dollars in one year and in fact in most years am lucky if i break 20 000. My 26 year old brother is a mechanic like my father who is 60, dad was able to buy a 3 bedroom house with a yard, a new american made car for himself and a new american car for his wife every 8 or 10 years, a new harley ever 10 years or so and 2 weeks vacation with the family each year and pay on one wage so that mom could stay at home and run the family as her profession. My brother and his nurse assistant wife both work full time and they are lucky enough to have a 3 bedroom double wide in the trailer park by the airport tucked next to 2 expressways. SAME JOB AS DAD! We are waking up bobbolink, one family at a time, all around us.

[bobbolink]

60. I keep hearing this, and here is my answer... the causes are NOT the same, and the solutions won't

be the same either.

Yes, middleclass people are ANGRY at what they are now dealing with.

That does NOT translate into compassion and ACTION on our behalf ("our" being people who have been poor before this great slide).

If you read much on DU, you know that "middleclass" is STILL the mantra, and you have seen the very UGLY and hurtful things said about poor people.

I know you want to believe things are changing for poverty, but.... it is an illusion. In fact, the only "change" is for the worst where poverty is concerned.

I ask you to hear me on this.

[reggie the dog]

66. the poor are getting poorer

with every rise in their cost of living. many middle class people are AFRAID to go to poor neighborhoods or trailer parks, until their kids end up living in such areas. middleclass should be the mantra, the poor should not exist in the usa with all its wealth.

[philly_bob]

25. The other day, a social service professional compared US to Chile in the 70's ...

... when the rich lived in gated communities -- and risked being shot when they stepped outside.

[bobbolink]

37. Which is precisely why I keep reminding middleclass "progressives" to start including

us poor folk.

The anger level is rising, and when it hits a certain flash point, it won't be pretty.

But it doesn't seem to do any good..... the isn't much willingness to hear.

[Youth Uprising]

47. What is it you want us to do, exactly?

What do you want us to include you in? I don't understand... I'm lower middle class and I've got my own problems to deal with. I'm not dirt poor by any means, and I'm thankful for that. Obviously, I can afford a roof over my head and access to the internet but I'm not exactly living in the lap of luxury, either. I'm really starting to resent your resentment.

[upi402]

30. A union member called Obama a communist yesterday to me

He wished we had Bush back. His dad and grampa were union too. The Propaganda War is job 1 and corporatists know it.

Obama acts like Bush and is still called a commie. That worked out well for them.

[socialist_n_TN]

33. My answer to that would be...........

"I WISH! At least then I would KNOW he was on the side of the working class." Might as well give it to them right back.

[upi402]

35. The difference between debating them, and a wall is

The wall doosn't start abusing you when the wall of facts fall on 'em.

I tried for many years. Not once has information been taken in. Like a religion to them.

[socialist_n_TN]

36. Well as I've said for a while, you don't argue to .......

convince the person you're arguing with necessarily. You argue for the people who are listening that are undecided or squishy in their convictions. Those you might convince IF you give them an alternative.

[upi402]

44. Good point, agreed. n/t

[jimlup]

49. I agree but it has taken a real attack on the middle class to even begin to bring about this change.

Sorry to be pessimistic but ...

Rather than "good" coming from the awakening, we might manage to hold on to some of our gains. We need a much deeper awakening and much stronger movement to actually make positive progress. "Good" will only come after much suffering I am sorry to say. This is because America is a deeply indoctrinated society. And the veil of indoctrination only lifts when people are truly suffering. A very sad state of affairs.

I guess the one hope I see for possible change, other than deep suffering, is communication. If can really start talking to each other again. Get to know your neighbors. Don't discount them just because they appear to be "conservative". Plant seeds of connection that will be needed in the future. This may be our best hope.

[socialist_n_TN]

57. Well I'm pretty optimistic, but I do agree with you

to an extent. I think for now, it's a holding action. But where I disagree is what people do when they actually DO awaken. I don't think that they go back. Or at least not EVERYBODY goes back. And even the ones who DO go back to some lethargy, are easier to arouse the NEXT time.

[ipaint]

52. No, The politician will do what they always do, placate the threatened middle class

and all will be forgiven. Scare them half to death then give them a couple in the win column, convince them the economy is mending and lower their taxes. Voila.

Taxes go up on the working poor- no problem.
Low income housing cut past the bone- no problem.
Future cuts to food stamps lined up and ready to go- no problem.
Another war to grind up and spit out the working poor's kids- no problem
Shove them all on an underfunded medicaid program and call it health care- no problem

As long as they can convince the perpetually pandered to middle class their concerns are front and center- in other words over the poor, working poor and destitute homeless, all is well.

[bobbolink]

65. You paint (pun intended) a bleak picture.... but it is reality. :(

What you have said here deserves its own OP.

I hope you will consider doing so, because I very much want to recommend your words!

:applause:

[barbtries]

54. i hope you're right

but i don't get out that much. :(

[southernyankeebelle]

68. Capitalism doesn't work when you cheat people.

[blindpig]

69. The ruling class is working hard wreck their own propaganda

They just can't help themselves, Capitalism demands it.

[indimuse]

71. yes! It's time to throw them ALL OUT!

What they have done to America is so F&^%king shameful...yet..they have none! (shame)

[Fire1]

74. I'm a socialist as well but I'm also a realist. They will

kill us all before they give up capitalism. Money equals power and power equals money. That's not just power "perceived." That's a fact.