Wait, wait, wait...

[Robb]

http://www2.insidenova.com/news/2010/dec/22/un-investigating-wikileaks-soldiers-treatment-quan-ar-731994/">U.N. investigating WikiLeaks soldier's treatment at Quantico

QUANTICO, Va. -- The United Nations says it is looking into a complaint that the Army private suspected of giving classified documents to WikiLeaks has been mistreated at Quantico’s brig.

The U.N. office for torture issues in Geneva said Wednesday it received a complaint from one of Pfc. Bradley Manning’s supporters alleging that conditions at the Marine Corps brig at Quantico amount to torture.....

(snip)

Manning’s cell is like all the others at the brig, said (Quantico spokesman 1st Lt. Scott) Villiard. A rack (or bed) is mounted to the wall, and there’s a toilet and sink.

“Every single detainee is in his own cell,” said Villiard. “There is a separate section (in the brig) for solitary confinement and he does not live there.“

OK, so why, when AP picked up this story, was this little tidbit from Quantico's primary public affairs officer left out?

[NV Whino]

1. That don't explain

why he isn't allowed to exercise. Or is that a myth?

[Robb]

2. It doesn't explain a lot of things. But it speaks to "solitary confinement," which surprised me.

Never having been in the brig at Quantico, myself.

[PBS Poll-435]

5. ShakeWeight! nt

[jaxx]

3. It takes away the victim aspect.

“He’s being treated the exact same as any other maximum custody detainee in the brig,” said Quantico spokesman 1st Lt. Scott Villiard.

[Bandit]

4. Except he has never even been charged with a crime.

Most suspected criminals are given their day in court before sentencing, and most are allowed bail.

[Robb]

6. He was charged in July, when he was moved to Quantico.

http://www.bradleymanning.org/3163/charge-sheet-html/

[jaxx]

7. The article cites two charges.

Manning has been held at the Quantico brig since May and is awaiting a court martial on charges that he violated articles 92 and 134 of Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Manning is charged with transferring classified data onto his personal computer and added unauthorized software to a classified computer system. He has also been charged with communicating, transmitting and delivering national defense information to an unauthorized source. If convicted, Manning faces up to 52 years in prison.>>

Yes, he has been charged.

[paparush]

8. Manning HAS been charged

I agree that Manning's treatment for a non-violent offense is abusive if not outright torturous.

From Wikipedia - "Manning was charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) with violations of UCMJ Articles 92 and 134 for "transferring classified data onto his personal computer and adding unauthorized software to a classified computer system," and "communicating, transmitting and delivering national defense information to an unauthorized source".<2><7><8>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning

[EFerrari]

13. The point is, he has not been convicted of a crime and he is being punished.

That is illegal.

[BzaDem]

17. Are you saying pre-trial detention is now illegal? n/t

[Hawkeye-X]

38. Yes, it's called cruel and unusual punishment

a violation of the Constitution that Bradley Manning was sworn to protect and defend.

8th Amendment to be exact.

[Robb]

39. Let's be clear, because the goalposts are getting shoved around:

I'm saying calling Manning's detention "solitary confinement" is disingenuous, because he simply has a one-person cell, like every other inmate at Quantico for the last 38 years. Calling his detention itself "torture" implies that every military member ever held there since the 1970s has been "tortured," and that's a long way in the desert with very little water.

When you say "cruel and unusual punishment," are you talking about the detention itself, or some other unspecified torture he's being subjected to? Because believe me, if he's being waterboarded, I want to raise hell about it. But if it's just the former you're calling "cruel and unusual," we may disagree on "cruel" but it would be impossible to defend "unusual."

I read several articles today, for example, about Sgt. Clayton Lonetree (thanks, Google News Archive!), and the news of the day (1980s) specifically mentioned he was in Quantico's solitary. For seven months. Before his trial. And no contemporary analysis seemed to think this was unusual enough to remark about it in more than passing.

[Statistical]

21. So every single person in the history of the US who is held in pre-trial confiment has

been done so illegally?

When as someone commits a violent crime judge provides no bail and holds him in pre-trial confinement that is illegal?

When a judge determines someone is a flight risk and remands the defendant for pre-trial confinement that is illegal?

When a judge sets the bail at an amount the person can't meet and they are held in pre-trial confinement that is illegal?

ROFL!

[EFerrari]

23. I don't get the sloppy generalizations around here.

Are we all hung over or what and why did nobody invite me? :)

Punishing someone before they are convicted is illegal according to the UCMJ.

[Statistical]

27. He isn't being punished. He is being held in pre-trial confinment.

A routine procedure that happens in every court in every city around the country every single day.
Only in Manning case it is "torture" because he is a hero to some.

[EFerrari]

28. That certainly is the Pentagon's position. n/t

[Canuckistanian]

58. "pre-trial" is the operative word here. No court date has been set.

At least it wasn't last week. It seems the military is in no hurry to set a trial date.

Which begs the question - how long can the military hold him without trial? Does habeus apply? Or is that a quaint concept these days?

Also, is there not a right to speedy trial? Don't all Americans have that right? Or do you waive those rights by enlisting?

[Robb]

62. UCMJ Article 10 is actually more strict and explicit than the 6th Amendment.

...If his attorney thought the government was not acting swiftly, there have been many opportunities to make a speedy trial demand. Since he has not, it's safe to assume his attorney believes the government is satisfying its obligation to investigate thoroughly before trial.

[H2O Man]

29. Actually,

those questions raise an interesting point: in each of those cases, those who are held before trial are kept in jails, not prisons. Of course, where your post is way off mark is in comparing the US justice system with military justice. Obviously, you did not intend to support the opposing argument, though you did -- moreso than the position you are taking.

[DeadEyeDyck]

48. No, there is a thing called article 32

Kind of like a grand jury. It determines the seriousness of the offense and based on that and the flight risk, decide on the disposition prior to a court martial.

<Army brat>

[Robb]

9. Non-Vick kick.

[Ysabel]

59. lol (nt)

[one_voice]

10. K&R

[EFerrari]

11. "We don't call it solitary confinement, so move along".

lol

[Robb]

12. Call it what you will, but you can't call it unique to Manning. nt

[EFerrari]

14. So, if it happens to other people, too, there is no problem?

No. That means the problem is more widespread than people know.

[Robb]

15. So everyone who has ever been held at Quantico has been "tortured" by definition?

That would be the suggestion.

[EFerrari]

16. Holding someone in pre-trial detention in solitary for months?

What do you think? Human rights organizations all over the world have asked the United States to stop using that kind of imprisonment for our most violent, convicted offenders.

Plus, no matter what the AP stenographers pass along from the Quantico PR people, we don't know what his actual condiitions are from this official denial, do we? We don't know if he is being treated as claimed, just like anyone else. Considering the Pentagon lies its institutional @ss off for a living, I doubt it, myself.

This is the same Pentagon that denied it had a worldwide torture program. What are the odds they'd lie about this?

[BzaDem]

20. Because you don't know his conditions, it is therefore torture (because you don't know)?

Excessive solitary confinement is a problem. But significant sections of basically every jail in every county in every state put people not convicted of a crime in these conditions. Yet we rarely see complaints about that here (until someone finds a way to use it to criticize Obama, as if the practice isn't used every day for a significant portion of prisoners in pre-trial detention).

[Robb]

31. But you don't think it's relevant that everyone has their own cell at Quantico?

And always have? Soldiers routinely sit in the brig for months before trial -- Lonetree, Fleming, Anzalone, Kaufmann, McGuinness.

Again, it might not be right. But it's not unique to Manning. The "AP stenographers" skipped over a rather critical point -- unless it's common knowledge that all cells are one-person cells at Quantico, and I'm just now learning it. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

32. That soldiers sit in solitary for months before their trial

should be relevant, shouldn't it?

Considering that both medical experts and the UN have concluded that solitary causes brain damage?

If we don't know these things, what does it say about us that this is a routine practice and we don't even know about it? :shrug:

[Robb]

33. Goalposts. Did Greenwald et al mention a single other soldier in US history?

Did I miss it? Or are you trying to tell me no one's actually calling Manning's situation unique, merely implying it? :D

ETA an apostrophe. :)

[EFerrari]

41. No. As I said 'way up thread, that this is happening to more people

than just Manning doesn't mean it's not a problem. It just means the problem is more widespread than we knew.

[TorchTheWitch]

53. we always knew

For decades these types of conditions have been going on in US prisons either civilian or military and becoming more common. It's never been a secret. It's just that nobody gave a shit until one of their heros was subjected to it... and they still don't give a shit for any of the other people held in such conditions other than their hero or they would have SAID so particularly when continually reminded.

[TexasObserver]

57. In the past 10 years, the US has become a major human rights violator.

The way we treat prisoners, suspects, and POWs is absolutely appalling.

That and the endless and pointless wars have destroyed the ability of the country to lead on moral issues.

[Luminous Animal]

19. If they are subject to the same conditions and treatment that Manning is undergoing, then yes.

It is well established that we torture U.S. prisoners in our Supermax prisons. What is stopping us from torturing military prisoners, as well?

[H2O Man]

30. Right.

One can conclude that he is being "prescribed" medications for a reason.

The coldness being expressed on this thread is troubling.

[Ignis]

37. +1. Incredibly troubling, indeed.

I've never seen so much bloodlust among liberals. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

42. It really is.

As if the abusive caging of a human being doesn't matter. I don't understand that viewpoint.

[Sheepshank]

45. your argument is making no sense.

I'm sure you think you found a sticking point, but trust me, nothing is sticking.

Held without bail, cannot make bail...all issues in civillian processes too where someone is held until trial starts. You want everyone to walk free until trial? Seriously?

[Luminous Animal]

18. Are the other prisoners isolated from each other 24/7? Do they have to answer "Yes" every 5 minutes?

Are they barred from exercising in their cell? Are they permitted to walking only for an hour for exercise? Are they woken up throughout the night?

If yes, then they are receiving inhumane treatment, as well.

[Statistical]

22. Nobody wakes him up in the middle of the night.

He is under PTO watch thus must respond to a "status check". If nothing was done and he killed himself or another prisoner killed him you would be blaming the military for that too.

[Luminous Animal]

24. They wake him if they cannot see him clearly. He has been psychologically assessed

and found fit; thus, there is no reason to disturb his sleep throughout the night by keeping the light on and periodically waking him up. It is almost as if they are trying to induce phychosis.

[BzaDem]

25. So if he can be seen clearly, he won't be woken up. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

26. You are right, he should sleep uncovered on the floor rather than in the bolted to the wall bed

under the blanket provided to him. Or maybe he should sleep with his eyes open so he can see himself while he is sleeping and ensure that he can be seen clearly.

[BlackHoleSon]

43. Sleep deprivation is torture

They could hook him easily to a modified EEG and respiratory effort sensors that could be monitored remotely and ensure that he is alive and breathing - without depriving him of the sleep that is necessary for any living creature to ... you know LIVE.
Please don't go down the slippery slope of defending the administration on this. It makes you look strident and even though I never agree with your posts, you are a valuable person in allowing progressives to define themselves.
Anyway, the suicide watch stuff is way too convenient.

[Sheepshank]

49. good god..back to make believe manufactured torture...sleep deprivation?

even Manning's interview said nothing about sleep deprivation. Please back up this most stupid assertion yet.

"They could hook him easily to a modified EEG and respiratory effort sensors that could be monitored remotely and ensure that he is alive and breathing - without depriving him of the sleep that is necessary for any living creature to ... you know LIVE."


I cannot even imagine the hullaballoo that would go on if Manning were 'strapped' up to electrical impements of monitoring torture. This is going beyond the ridiculous.

[Capitalocracy]

34. Yes?

Yes every 5 minutes? I haven't heard about that, what's that in reference to?

[Luminous Animal]

35. During his waking hours, from 5:00 AM to 8:00 PM his jailors are tasked with calling out to him

every 5 minutes, to which he is ordered to reply, "Yes."

[Capitalocracy]

36. What's the question?

Or what, do they say his name?

Psychological torture is such an interesting beast... it's too bad so many people are so ignorant of history, or they would understand that this non-torture torture, this clean, antiseptic torture, is the product of decades of research and observation conducted in the military dictatorships we've backed around the world and proven to get certain results, like false confessions or insanity.

[Luminous Animal]

40. I believe is is "roll call" so I assume it is his name. And thank you for the rest of your post.

[Sheepshank]

50. seems to nullify the argument of solitary confinment just a bit n/t

[Luminous Animal]

52. Solitary confienment is confinement in isolation from OTHER PRISONERS.

It has been reported that he has no interaction with other prisoners. He said that sometimes he can hear their voices but he can't speak with them. You are confusing isolation with solitary.

But go ahead. Lock yourself in your stripped down bedroom for a month, only accept food from a stranger and only interact with that stranger by answering yes. You might hear your snippets of your family's conversations now and again but you are not allowed to speak to them. But, you do have a saving grace, you get to watch Family Guy reruns for an hour a day.

[Sheepshank]

55. it's clear you have no idea what solitary confinement really means n/t

[Luminous Animal]

56. It is clear that you are trying to normalize solitary confinement and conflate it with sensory

deprivation.

Both are cruel and unusual punishment, inhumane, and torture.

[Sheepshank]

44. On another thread we were arguing "not customary"

treatment...no one could point out exactly was not customary in Manning's case so far.

The moving goal posts pretty much says it all.

[Luminous Animal]

47. So you are on the side of those who think that if all prisoners are treated similarly, that is...

inhumanely, then it is OK?

Manning, for his role in U.S. history has a spotlight on him. It doesn't matter whether his treatment is customary (and there has been no evidence presented that it is) or uncustomary.

The important thing is that inhumane treatment has been exposed.

[Sheepshank]

51. bull

the fairy dust applied to Manning is simply bull. You want to interpret ideologies and call it something else go ahead. But I won't be in engaging in stupid contorting of statements. Your comment is beyond the ridiculous.

[Luminous Animal]

54. Certainly, international human rights orgs have issued report after report revealing

that our prison conditions are not only inhumane, but in many cases, torture. Apparently, most U.S. citizens are comfortable with blocking out that part of the Constitution that guarantees freedom from cruel and unusual punishment.

[DeadEyeDyck]

46. They will NEVER get in

[Dystopian]

60. Odd...or not.

The link you posted quotes Lt. Scott Villiard. Every other source I've read identifies him as Lt. Brian Villiard.
This/that Villiard knows just what to say....programmed .... military ....brainwashed...God Bless America.
Such garbage being spewed. David House and his attorney have seen Bradley Manning. They know what he's going through.
Yes, it is torture. Perhaps I missed something...what is the little tidbit?

From the Bradley Manning site:

Bradley Manning in Quantico: A Call with Public Affairs Officer Villiard
by Dennis Leahy at A World Beyond Borders

December 23, 2010 — I spoke for about 20 minutes with Lt. Brian Villiard, from the Public Affairs Office at Quantico Prison. He had returned my call from the voice mail message I had left regarding Bradley Manning’s ‘detainment’ conditions, and Lt. Villiard was also contacted by Quantico Base Commander Colonel Daniel Choike’ s office where I had left a voicemail message.

.....He gave me a chance to express my understanding of the current conditions of Private Bradley Manning’s confinement. I echoed the information that I had read, that Bradley is in solitary confinement, that he has not been out doors in four weeks, that he previously had been sporadically allowed only one hour of exercise time out of the cell, that he is not allowed to exercise in his cell, that lights are left on all night, and that the blanket he uses is rough, more like carpeting than a blanket.

Lt. Villiard said he’d like a chance to clear up some misconceptions, and said he had read the same information that I had. I listened, respectfully, without interrupting, but interjected questions and comments as would be normal in polite conversation. Again, I mention this because though this is difficult to do with an emotionally charged subject, respectful dialogue did allow me the opportunity to ask a number of questions, as well as make a number of comments. I wasn’t taking notes (though I should have), but will do my best to recall as much as I can.

Lt. Villiard spoke first to the charge that Bradley is held in solitary confinement, and explained that every detainee – (Bradley was never referred to as a prisoner, but rather as a “detainee”) – every detainee at Quantico is in a cell by themselves, so this is not something unique to Bradley. I asked if Bradley was allowed and able to interact with other detainees in his area, whether there were walls between cells or bars, whether or not he could see other detainees. I was told that there are walls between cells, with bars on the front of the cell. Due to the arrangement of cells, no detainee at Quantico can see another detainee – no visual contact – but that detainees could speak to one another. (I should have asked if there are currently detainees housed on either side of Bradley’s cell – someone to actually talk to – or if the possible interaction was more theoretical than actual in Bradley’s case. That is a question that should be asked. If the actual condition has Bradley purposely physically distant from any other detainees, or alone in a cell block, that is quite different than having the ability to interact.)....

more at link:
http://www.bradleymanning.org/15838/bradley-manning-in-quantico-a-call-with-public-affairs-officer-villiard/

This is sickening.

peace~

[Robb]

61. No conspiracy. 1st Lt. Brian Scott Villiard, USMC.

[Dystopian]

63. Thanks for the clarification & fact check....

Didn't think it was a conspiracy ...thought facts/name were not accurate reports.
One and the same...
He should go by 1st Lt. B.S. Villiard to avoid confusion:D



peace~