Should prostitution between two consenting adults be legal?

[Very_Boring_Name]

In my opinion, laws against prostitution are moronic. Two consenting adults ought to be able to do whatever they like with their bodies. Police are wasting time and money trying to enforce morality (aka religious scripture) on everyone.

On edit: Didn't notice another poll on this exact topic was made shortly before this one... my apologies.

[gateley]

1. Yes, and why is this the second poll tonight asking that question? Did I miss something? nt

[Incitatus]

2. probably because of this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=832191&mesg_id=832191

[gateley]

8. Thanks -- yeah, I missed it. nt

[Very_Boring_Name]

3. media is making a huge deal about an Obama aquaintence getting arrested for buying sex

[gateley]

9. Thank you, too. Incitatus just directed me to a thread about it. I hadn't seen it. nt

[defendandprotect]

19. Are men happier when they can "buy" sex -- rather than be in a relationship?

[Codeine]

31. Not everyone can be in a relationship.

People who have severe emotional problems, disfiguring deformities or injuries, or who are just butt-ugly often have difficulty finding love. They still have biological urges, and if they can find a way to satisfy them in exchange for cash it's none of my business.

[Freddie Stubbs]

49. Some men opt for both

[Green_Lantern]

105. most johns are married but they can "control" prostitutes..

I think it is more than sex..

[defendandprotect]

122. Interesting, but the heart of the question was "happy" ...

How interested in relationships are these men, actually?

Other than the comforts that marriage may provide for them --

the question is re the relationship with women -- not just sexual, but overall.

And what does it say of this concept of manhood that it requries "control" over

women -- ?

[Green_Lantern]

126. I think it is a deeper psychological issue...

They probably feel emasculated in their other normal relationships with women.

Honestly I wonder how many women versus men would legalizing prostitution.

Many men who want it legalized have the mentality of "I like sex so having sex for a living must be fun."

Women will see it just as it really is...a man using them for two minutes and casting them aside.

[Rage for Order]

4. Clearly the poster is referring to lobbyist/lawmaker relationships

:)

[gateley]

12. Well then, I should have voted 'no'! nt

[defendandprotect]

5. Wrong Question: Is something wrong when people sell their body parts, or bodies for $$?

And when I say "wrong" I don't mean it to be any questioning of the morals

of those doing it --

I mean it in the sense of what should be society's concerns about the well-being

of its citizens --

especially now when we can see that the rise of the right/authoritarian rule has led

to a sexual slave trade in women, children -- and young males.

That's the question --

I'd also raise another question --

Patriarchy and organized patriarchal religion called for societies based on marriage --

this came after reducing women to being barred from ownership of anything -- including

even rights to their own children -- and made them wholly PROPERTY.

It was the only economic answer for women, actually.

However, it's a system which mainly benefits patriarchy -- the few --

If we could do a poll where men and women could answer anonymously, would they say that

males are really interested in living with females -- and vice versa?

In having an actual 24 hour a day relationship with a female -- and vice versa?

[Very_Boring_Name]

6. aren't people selling themselves for money regardless of what they do for a living?

[defendandprotect]

17. Agree they sell themselves in employment -- a less invasively than selling body parts, however!

PS: I've edited the message to add other questions --

if you're interested --

[joeunderdog]

51. Pro Football is pretty invasive. Not sexual, but physical and dangerous.

Sperm and egg donors, actresses in love scenes, etc.

If you take "morals" out of it, there are plenty of people who sacrifice their bodies to make a living.

[defendandprotect]

75. You think Pro-football compares with the risks women take in industry porn?

Or prostitution?

Football players have control over what they do on the field --

there are risks but there are boundries. Granted, freak accidents happen.

Often prostitutes and porn stars do not --

They have no control over what someone else can do to them sexually or any other way.

[Dokkie]

88. WTF are you talking about

"They have no control over what someone else can do to them sexually or any other way."

Try and see what happens when you try to have sex with a bunny ranch/German/Dutch prostitute without a rubber and see what happens. Also prostitutes can refuse to service any customer they do not like and not get fired as opposed to a football player who refuses to play in special team. Stop thinking about illegal prostitution when discussing this case, an underground market is always more dangerous and chaotic than a legal one.

[defendandprotect]

119. So you're saying the international sexual slave trade for women and young males is safe?

[Green_Lantern]

153. how exactly will legalizing prostitution stop the street prostitution?

There will still be a demand by sick fucks for child prostitutes and cheaper street walkers.

You actually want a free market in people? Bad idea.

[Dokkie]

167. I will tell you how

Just the same way repealing prohibition killed speakeasy, the same way drug prohibition would eliminate drug gangs. Prostitutes cannot setup shops that can be easily raided by our fascist policemen. They actually do not enjoy walking the streets. Look at examples in Germany, Nevada and Netherlands and see how it transformed the industry.

Btw check out the news of serial killer killing 7 prostitutes in NY. If you cared for these young girls, you should be fighting for the legalization of prostitution

[Green_Lantern]

170. nice try but no cigar...

If prostitutes and pimps are willing to break the law now why would they follow the laws regulating legalized prostitution?

Also these legalized upscale prostitutes would likely cost a high price so the demand for cheap street walkers will still exist not to mention child prostitutes.

As for prostitutes being killed...how silly to say we can protect women by exploiting them. That's like saying we can protect women from being killed by locking them in their houses.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

181. +1000% -- thank you!

[Green_Lantern]

106. that's my fear...sexual psychopaths taking advantage of

Someone's desperation.

[defendandprotect]

117. Even from what can be seen in internet porn now -- shockingly violent --

and many are getting addicted to violent concept of human sexuality!

Great book on this now PORLAND which I've pretty much read -- check your library --

it's new -- by Gail Dines --

Difficult to read at times -- in one porn video she describes a woman wearing a

vise on her head so that the guy she is giving oral sex to -- allegedly willingly --

can direct the action!!

This is now porn taken over by industry -- and it's underlying theme is violence against

women -- it's as far as I can see a decades long effort to generate new violence against

women -- especially sexually. To debase and degrade women.


We need a lot more discussion of this subject here at DU!!


PS: Just want to add that another dimension of this is moving men who plug into this

internet porn into child porn -- many ways to do it, including younger and younger LOOKING

females -- until you almost can't tell the difference between someone actually underage

and someone of age! But

[TheWraith]

164. Your propaganda is starting to annoy me.

I find it an increasingly common tactic these days to take the staggeringly small micro-minority of internet porn which depicts roughness or pain, and equating that not only to all adult content, in a new version of the ludicrous old "all sex is rape" argument. Not to mention, I can't help but notice that you managed to weave a conspiracy theory into it. Perhaps it's directed by the same people who staged the moon landings!

Also, your belief that you represent absolute truth aside, there are plenty of women out there who have a taste for the rougher end of sexuality. I have a female friend who doesn't feel like she's had a "good time" unless she feels it sitting down the next day.

I'm wasting my breath on you, knowing that you live in a truly bizarre little bubble, but I didn't want any bystanders to wander by and potentially be taken in by your "arguments."

[Green_Lantern]

171. I doubt "plenty" of women like rough sex and secondly

Mixing sex and violence is the type of behavior that leads to rape and sexual sadism.

[defendandprotect]

180. Thank you -- and it also encourages males to think in abusive terms ...

re women -- and human sexuality!

[Warren DeMontague]

189. Really? So all those people who are into consensual adult kink are... what?

I used to live in the Bay Area. Believe me, between the GLBT pride parades and the exotic erotic ball, yes, there are a lot of them, and honestly, it's awfully fucking presumptuous of you to try to tell other consenting adults how to get their jollies.

[Green_Lantern]

196. I'm not telling anyone they can't have sex but people who get off

On inflicting pain need psychological help.

Please don't put GLBT people in with sadistic freaks.

[Warren DeMontague]

201. I'm wondering how many actual GLBT communities you've hung around.

Because honestly, there are plenty of people in those communities who are into consensual activities that you seem to be criticizing, here. Maybe you're not old enough to remember the hubub around Robert Mapplethorpe in the 80s.

But you know what? It's not my job to educate you about the variety of human sexual expression. Educate yourself.

[defendandprotect]

179. So you're familiar with most of internet porn -- ?

Gail Dines makes clear that what she is monitoring is not "paid for porn" nor anything

unusual -- just what anyone would see if they move the browser to porn.

But why should any males be turned on by any degree of "pain" producing sex?

What's wrong with them?

Don't know what "conspiracy theory" you're referring to --

it's an industry -- and it has an agenda --

Also, your belief that you represent absolute truth aside, there are plenty of women out there who have a taste for the rougher end of sexuality. I have a female friend who doesn't feel like she's had a "good time" unless she feels it sitting down the next day.

And you're suggesting that the rest of us live in a "bazarre little bubble" -- Yikes!

I'm wasting my breath on you, knowing that you live in a truly bizarre little bubble, but I didn't want any bystanders to wander by and potentially be taken in by your "arguments."

No -- you didn't waste your breath -- happy to know EXACTLY who you are and how you think --

as repulsive as that may be!!



After this thread, you'll be on ignroe --

[TheWraith]

165. Actually, porn stars have far more control over their jobs than football players.

Porn stars can decide what they do, and with whom. Prostitutes also select their clients and activities, particularly if they're legal prostitutes.

The fact that you view the porn industry as some kind of giant rape-machine is almost laughable in how little you know about the subject. The irony is that adult film is more and more under the control of women, since they're the ones "in demand" and thus the ones making the money.

[defendandprotect]

182. You have a very naive view of the world ...

or you are being disingenuous?

I'd guess the latter!!

You're on IGNORE --

[Petrushka]

37. Hm-m. What do pimps sell or "do for a living"? n/t

[PassingFair]

65. No...

would you let somebody enter your body for $50 bucks? $100?

Prostitution is a HORRIBLE way to make a living.

[Very_Boring_Name]

77. Says you

[Warren DeMontague]

26. a "24 hour a day relationship"?

Christ, can't we have time off to sleep and use the can, at least?

[David__77]

7. CAN there be consent under such a scenario?

That is the question I would ask. I think there can. But I do have concerns. A poor person in need may feel real compulsion to obtain money, out of desperation, just to survive. Can such a person consent, truly? Consensual prostitution is a nice concept, but in practice there are problems. I don't know the solution. Certainly, do not legally target the sex worker. Otherwise, I don't know.

[Very_Boring_Name]

14. The same question can be asked of ANY degrading job, no?

I'm sure nobody who works at McDonalds WANTS to be working there. They feel a compulsion to obtain money out of desperation. In that sense, your standard for "consensual" should preclude such people from legally being allowed to work there.

[defendandprotect]

18. What job is as "degrading" in your opinion?

[Blue-Jay]

20. Assistant jizz-mopper at the porno movie booth store.

That's probably pretty degrading. Even if you get a promotion, then you're still the jizz manager.

[defendandprotect]

22. Oh, yeah, the kind of place SC Justice Clarence Thomas was said by his friends to habituate!!

Still -- that's not your body out there -- to be done whatever with that anyone

else wants -- from A to Z and back again!

[EOTE]

42. Just about all of them are as degrading or more to me.

I happen to enjoy sex, it wouldn't be a degrading job to me. I'd wholly enjoy it. Just about every job in the known universe short of F1 driver or rock star would be far more degrading to me.

[Green_Lantern]

107. I doubt you'd enjoy being a prostitute having sex with some nasty

Guy. Do you enjoy sex with any random person?

[EOTE]

204. Mostly, yes.

And factor in getting paid for it, and it becomes an even better proposition. This may surprise you, but some people simply like sex. And many more would choose to have sex far more often if it could be their profession.

[David__77]

21. McDonald's and s****** d*** is not equivalent...

Not to be foul... Let us say that taking money from men for sexual services can have additional psychological implications not founds from working with fried foods. At least, this is what I think. I understand your point from a formalistic perspective, but feel that the comparison is inadequate.

[Codeine]

33. I don't really want to work in a grocery store.

I do it because I'm compelled to obtain money out of desperation just to survive. :shrug:

[WatsonT]

192. So only people who are wealthy can consent to

any kind of work whatsoever?

I doubt many people really want to be janitors. They do it because they want the money. Should that be illegal?

[TomCADem]

10. What Would Senator David Vitter (R) Say?

Perhaps someone will ask him?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. Yes

[Old and In the Way]

13. The high class hookers wear flag lapels and talk small government.

But demand big paydays for their service.

[Rex]

15. I don't care.

[Very_Boring_Name]

16. Thanks for contributing

:eyes:

[Rex]

24. That was my response, jackass.

[Liberty Belle]

23. This is not a "victimless" crime. In our area many are kidnapped and coerced into prostitution.

Human trafficking in San Diego is a huge problem. The police here say its now gangs and organizing crimes doing the kidnapping, straight out of even well-to-do neighborhoods like La Jolla. The pimps actually brand their girls (some are very young) and psychologically/emotionally abuse them to the point where they don't try to run away anymore. Many are beaten into submission, and taken to distant cities where they can't easily flee their pimps/captors.

So no this should not be made legal. I also oppose that because of the impact prostitution has on spouses of those johns who may come home with venereal diseases. I would not want to make it any easier than it already is for a cheater to find cheap sex on the side.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word "consenting"

Examples involving non-consent, by definition, don't fall under the umbrella of "consenting adults".

[Motown_Johnny]

98. You think you can remove all coercion?

Honestly?!?!?


Good luck with that.

[Liquorice]

29. I agree with you. Too many times the "consenting" woman is

really just an abused teenage girl, or a woman forced into prostitution through coercion. Human trafficking is an incredibly horrific worldwide problem and it is outright slavery. Because it's sex slavery of girls/women, however, it seems to not be taken as seriously.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. Okay. Leaving aside the belief some have that no one else can possibly consent to something that

they, personally, don't agree with - or, that women who make choices they don't agree with somehow are magically transmogrified from able-minded adults to helpless, infantalized waifs needing protection from themselves and their decisions (an argument also favored by anti-choicers) ....

leaving that aside for a moment, if we were to assume that -in the hypothetical question outlined in the OP- "consent" actually means CONSENT, no asterisks or anything...

THEN do you think it should be legal? If everyone involved is consenting?

[Liquorice]

35. What are you talking about? I didn't say or even imply any of that.

From my post, where do you get anything about infantilized waifs and my being against women making choices. WTF is wrong with you?

Are you even aware of the sex slave trade? Do you even care about the girls/women who are abducted and forced into prostitution every year? It doesn't sound like you care one bit. You seem to think it's some kind of joke in which the women really chose to become sex slaves. Sex slavery is very real and millions of girls/women (not "infantilized waifs") have been kidnapped and forced into slavery. Your attitude is just gross.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. I'm asking you what your opinion would be if you were to assume "consent" actually means "consent".

You keep interjecting examples- terrible examples, which should be roundly condemned, I might add- examples all involving various degrees of NON consent.

So leaving that aside, what about situations- hypothetical, maybe- where everyone actually is a consenting adult? Should it be legal in those cases?

Simple question.

[Warren DeMontague]

83. Guess I'm not going to get an answer on #40, then.

Sort of like:

"do you think carrots are tasty?"

"I don't eat meat"

"Right, but do you think carrots are tasty?"

"People often disguise meat dishes by covering them with carrots"

"Okay, but if it was just carrots, would you think those were tasty?"

"I think it's unconscionable how you keep apologizing for the terrible practice of meat eating."

"Let's just say there's no meat- only carrots. Are they tasty?"

"I told you, I don't eat meat"

[Liquorice]

87. My answer is it should be illegal. Some things should not have a price. But before

you accuse me of thinking women are infantalized waifs, you should know that I think boxing should be illegal too and for some of the same reasons. Just because someone would do something for money doesn't necessarily mean it should be legal for them to do it.

In the case of prostitution, it carries with it the weight of hundreds of thousands of women and children who are raped, abducted, tricked, and beaten every year. It carries with it hidden violence, sickness and death. Laws should not legitimize that. Society should not legitimize it as just another way to make money.

Making it legal does nothing but make the abuses worse because women with opportunities for education and careers do not become prostitutes. Therefore in order to keep the "industry" running, girls and women with no opportunity must be found for the business to run. See my post below about what happened in The Netherlands when they made prostitution legal.

[stevenleser]

120. You're still erecting straw man arguments in response to that person's points.

Whenever you use logical fallacies, they are devastating to your argument. At least when viewed by those who know what they are.

http://nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

http://nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[Liquorice]

140. There's no strawman here. You're confused. nt

[stevenleser]

145. Nope, I'm not. I can point by point it out if you still dont get it. n/t

[Liquorice]

149. I can assure you that

I'm already very well educated on this subject, and I do not need your help. Thanks!

[Warren DeMontague]

133. Understood.

Thanks for the clarification. I happen to disagree, I think that the default position should be that consenting adults should be able to make their own decisions, and that unless there are direct indications otherwise, a adult who says "I am consenting" is, actually, consenting.

I'm not sure if the Netherlands example bears out a clear indication that legalization is de facto worse. For one, esp. where the Netherlands are concerned, when you have one island of choice and sanity (like, with marijuana) in an otherwise controlling, oppressive, overly legislating international atmosphere, you're going to have a concentration of activity; like, all the pot smokers go to amsterdam, and then it's like "holy shit, there's all these pot smokers here!" Well, if the international community would just grow the fuck up and legalize pot for consenting adults already, it wouldn't be such a big, centralized deal. Likewise, I doubt you'd have these concentrated 'interests' moving in on a place like the netherlands if prostitution was legal, and regulated, decentralized across the board in many different places.

I suspect there ARE educated women who choose to become prostitutes, just as some choose to be porn stars- but undoubtedly, economics factors in that decision for most, just like it factors in the decision to take most jobs. I fall on the side of, let consenting adults make their own calls, whenever possible. My point about the anti-choicers is that they don't agree with the choices women make regarding abortion, so they pretend the woman is the 'victim' of the 'abortion industry' and not in her right mind about her choice. That's why they're so gung-ho to pass these laws mandating waiting periods and jesus indoctrination speeches prior to, etc.

But again, thanks for the clarification on your point.

[Liquorice]

147. I think there is room for debate. I don't believe

however, that it is ever possible to make prostitution a good or safe "occupation" for women (or for the few men who are prostitutes) because at its root it doesn't honor human beings in their basic psychology or biology.

Many lawmakers in the Netherlands were shocked when human trafficking increased in their country after they legalized prostitution. That was what they were trying to stop. But IMO, it happened because their fundamental thinking on prostitution was flawed. Human beings aren't psychologically made to have sex with hundreds or thousands of strangers for money. That happens through desperation, coercion, or through awful things happening to them when they were young, thereby messing them up psychologically. It's the same with boxing; humans aren't naturally made to beat the hell out of each other for no other reason than money. Yes, there are a few men with opportunity who will go into boxing, but the overwhelming majority of boxers are from poor violent families. With prostitutes, there is a similar argument to be made, which is perhaps why brothels in the Netherlands, with its large social safety net, had to import girls/women from countries where opportunities for them were scarce.

But having said that, I do believe there is just cause to agree to disagree and debate many aspects of this issue.

[stevenleser]

116. What you are describing is the logical fallacy known as a "Straw man" and probably a few others...

Person A proposes premise Y

Person B puts out a long diatribe excoriating premise X because premise X is terrible! Person A's premise is therefore wrong or immoral. Problem is, Person A did not propose premise X, they proposed premise Y.

[Liquorice]

141. I went to college too and I took critical thinking. Please stop trying to

explain what a straw man argument is. I already know, and this isn't it.

[stevenleser]

144. If you think this isnt it, then you don't know what a strawman is. n/t

[EOTE]

43. All of those factors would be lessed with the legalization of prostitution.

How much of an issue are STDs in areas where prostitution is legalized? Not a very big one considering they get regular screenings and protection is required.

Also, human trafficking is such a huge issue precisely because of the underground nature of prostitution. It's much easier for these women to get help for their situation of they're not concerned that law enforcement is going to come after them when they ask for help.

[defendandprotect]

50. Wouldn't stop women from being kidnapped by enslavers -- or children ...

All of this comes from the rise of the right --

Previously, I would have favored legalization -- but now as I begin to think of

it more as "selling your body" and the economic situations we are not curing which

can push this kind of need, my opinion is changing --

Wouldn't want government condoning the "selling of one's body" -- or body parts!!

Or making any sexual enslavement look like something legal, normal or natural!!

[Warren DeMontague]

68. Why are people seemingly incapable of answering a straightforward question about consenting adults

without resorting to inevitable examples involving non-consent, non-adults, or both?

[Codeine]

72. In their minds nobody could ever possibly consent

to a transaction to which they themselves would not consent.

[Green_Lantern]

154. now its a transaction...that's free market run amuck ...

Some people consent to smoking but that doesn't make it wrong to ban smoking ads.

My point is there's no problem in banning all prostitution to send a message that women's bodies aren't a commodity.

[Liquorice]

82. Where are the facts to back up those assertions? In The Netherlands, where

they actually did legalize prostitution, sex slave trafficking INCREASED dramatically, so your argument is clearly false. Also, the vast majority of prostitutes in the Netherlands are from places like Africa, Latin America, and the former Soviet Union. Why do you think that is? The Dutch are now reconsidering making prostitution legal because crime syndicates have taken over and are moving kidnapped girls/women into the Netherlands in alarming numbers to work in the brothels there.

"When the Dutch government legalized prostitution in 2000, it was to protect the women by giving them work permits, but authorities now fear that this business is out of control: "We’ve realized this is no longer about small-scale entrepreneurs, but that big crime organizations are involved here in trafficking women, drugs, killings and other criminal activities", said Job Cohen, the former mayor of Amsterdam..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands#21st_century:_reducing_the_size_of_the_red_light_district

The Netherlands is now listed by the UN as a TOP DESTINATION for human trafficking in the area of sex slavery. Legalizing prostitution does nothing but make matters worse.

[vim876]

102. Correlation is not causation.

And the plural of "anecdote" is not "data." Were there other forces at work here? More immigrants from poor countries? A worse economy? Freer international travel (via the EU)? How much are they spending on enforcement of anti-sex-trafficking laws? It may be that there's another factor there.

[defendandprotect]

121. Thank you -- and certainly linked to the rise of the right --

[vim876]

101. Human trafficking is a HUGE problem.

However, keeping prostitution illegal means the people being forced into sexual slavery (which is what it is when it isn't an informed, consenting adult) are afraid to go to the authorities. Usually they wouldn't be arrested, but they often don't know that. We'd probably all be best off if prostitution were legal, highly regulated, and the participants were unionized. If any part of prostitution should be illegal, it's paying for sex, not being paid for it, that should be the crime. But realistically, we should just get it all out in the open so we can help the people who are now being forcibly hidden in the shadows.

[Taitertots]

159. All those problems are solely caused by prostitution laws

So by opposing prostitution you are actually causing all those problems.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. Fucking is legal. Spending money is legal.

Yes, if everyone involved is a consenting adult, it should be legal.

In fact, as a baseline rule, activities involving consenting adults that don't harm, endanger, or otherwise directly interfere with the lives of other, non-involved persons, SHOULD BE LEGAL unless there is a damn solid and convincing reason for them not to be.

And "we don't like your choice" isn't a damn solid and convincing reason.

[Rex]

28. Ah but spending money on fucking is illegal!

There is the rub.

[Solomon]

93. LOL

Thanks for the laugh. This thread is funny.

[Green_Lantern]

109. organ transplants are legal spending money is legal..

So should purchasing organs be legal?

[Warren DeMontague]

135. Honestly?

Maybe.

[Green_Lantern]

151. that's horrible...allowing people to sell their organs..

I'd agree with that if it worked this way....if you sell your kidney for $900,000 you get charged $899,999 for the surgery.

[Warren DeMontague]

185. If people's bodies don't belong to themselves, then who do they belong to?

Riddle me that, Batman.

[Green_Lantern]

186. self ownership and autonomy is not the same as seeing a person's

Body as property to be auctioned off.

That is the mentality that produces slavery.

Secondly why should an economy allow people to profit from something they put no labor of production into?

[Warren DeMontague]

187. So you assert that "the economy" owns your body, not you.

If someone has a beautiful singing voice, should they not be allowed to make a profit off singing? How about models that are beautiful enough to get paid just to have pictures taken of them?

I suppose you also believe porn should be illegal- is that correct?

And what is it about the difference between someone else selling your body and you selling it yourself, that you aren't getting?



I'm not saying that I think organ sales should be de facto legal; but if the only choice (as it always seems to be) is between individuals having complete, unchallenged ownership of their bodies, or our bodies belonging to the government/the "economy"/the church/"god", I will go with the individual citizen.

[Green_Lantern]

194. no I don't think we can ban porn due to the 1st Amendment...

And the SC has ruled on that.

I oppose putting a price tag on organs mainly because saving someone's life with transplant shouldn't be based on who can pay the most.

Call me a communist.

[JVS]

32. Either the government belongs in consenting adults' bedrooms or it doesn't.

[defendandprotect]

52. In neither prostitution nor pornography industry there is no way to assure there is "consent" -- !!

We all understand often this happens because of economic conditions --

and/or force!

[JVS]

58. Nearly all work happens because of economic conditions. There are already laws against...

involuntary servitude, kidnapping, etc.

[defendandprotect]

66. So you're saying there is no "sexual slavery" and no one in porn is forced?

:rofl:

[apocalypsehow]

67. Erecting Strawmen to flail away at because you're losing the debate on the merits is laughable.

Edit: typo

[stevenleser]

118. There are a lot of these in responses to this OP. People dont seem to know the logical fallacies

or how they are devastating to your credibility and the credibility of your argument.

[Warren DeMontague]

70. Yeah.

The onus is on you to prove otherwise. Just because people are doing something you wouldn't do, doesn't mean they're being forced to do it. Why don't you ask some porn stars directly?

[Hugabear]

108. What about Heidi Fleiss?

Believe it or not, some people really do go into prostitution or porn simply because of the money, not because they're being forced. And yes, some of these people even enjoy their work. They choose who they want to sleep with, how often, when, where, what conditions, etc.

[defendandprotect]

183. Heidi Fleiss was a Madam running an elite service ...

is that what you think all prostitution is --

or that even those women didn't face risks of all kinds?

Wonder how many kidnapped women and young males in the slave trade cross even

into the US think it all "enjoyable work" !!!???

No one chooses to expose themselves to a life of degradation --

[Chef Eric]

112. Even outside of prostitution and pornography, there's no way to assure there is consent.

Rape happens because there are some people who are deranged and/or evil.

This rule applies everywhere (even outside the worlds of prostitution and pornography).

[Green_Lantern]

110. it isn't in bedrooms...they solicit prostitutes on the street..

If the sex happens in your house you wouldn't get caught so why worry about legalizing it?

[stevenleser]

123. Try again. Just do a google search on "Escort Sting operations" n/t

[Green_Lantern]

184. that's not private behavior..it involves solicitation in a public setting..

It is never in someone's home.

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Yes.

It isn't always about morality for some, there are those who make up their own narrative about prostitution. To be honest, I feel there are still way too many people, including self-identifying liberals/progressives, who have hang-ups about sex, sexuality, nudity, and body images. It never fails in threads like this, despite the use of word "consensual", there are those who turn it into some "drama." I have also noticed most of the time, threads likes this (and ones about porn) are almost always heterosexist.

[TheMadMonk]

36. Legal prostitution goes a long way toward changing pimps to paid bodyguard.

Sanitary, lisenced, inspected brothels beat the hell out of a knee trembler up against the side of a dumpster, or in the hydrangeas under your kid's bedroom window.

Tax revenue.

Sex slavery becomes less easy to hide when the voluntary workers aren't playing their own concealment games with the law.

Rape and assaults of sex industry workers are more likely to be reported to the police and are more likely to be taken seriously.

[Rochester]

38. No

On anti-capitalist grounds. Sex should not be a commodity to be bought and sold, and no one should be denied it because of inability or unwillingness to pay.

[Codeine]

39. Nobody would be denied sex based on unwillingness or inability to pay.

You just wouldn't be able to get it from a sex worker. Surely you do not believe that in the even that it became legal all women would be charging, do you?

[blondeatlast]

61. Yeah, but that idea would fast-track legalizing the profession, doncha think?

:rofl:

[leftstreet]

48. ?? "no one should be denied it "

Oh my

:popcorn:

[blondeatlast]

62. Sex is already a commodity. Lots of people are denied enjoying it

with other consenting adults for various reasons--less physical attraction, they reserve it for someone they love--and can't find anyone who loves them, they don't have money, all kinds of reasons. Nothing about legalizing the practice would change human nature.

[Posteritatis]

63. To each according to their needs, eh? Oy. (nt)

[Codeine]

71. And from each according to their. . . abilities.

Nudge nudge.

[octothorpe]

94. That's the most unqiue take on this topic I've ever heard...

I don't think I agree with it, but I like it.

[seabeyond]

41. prostitution is not all rosy and pretty wrapped in a bow with legalization. it does not make it a

better life for the prostitute. all the countries that have legalized it have issue and are looking at ways to address it. sweden has gone from legalization to criminalizing it for the jon and not criminal for the prostitute. the pimp, the violence, the sex slaves escalate under legalization drawing in the worst elements and tying the police hand on getting at the criminals.

personally.... this is not my issue. i dont care if legalized or criminalized.

just saying

i get tired of hearing how everything is suppose to be all pretty woman with legalization when it does not happen that way

[Orsino]

44. If only so that the sex worker can be protected from sex slavery...

...and other abuses. And taxed.

[defendandprotect]

53. Legalization could make it look like government/people condone people selling their bodies...

and even body parts!

Don't take for granted that as we go down this right wing fascist road that you

won't see increased pressure for these kinds of "business deals" --

The rise of the sexual slave trade which is crossing thru America as well makes

clear what happens as fascists take control --

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

155. Why tax it? Why not make it tax exempt?

OH...




that's right....





Don't want to compete with the Church! Nope. Can't have that.

[BOG PERSON]

45. probably decriminalizing it would be the lesser of two evils

[Iggo]

46. Whooooo Boy! Here we go again!

And yes.

[Hugabear]

47. Should we go ahead and outlaw "sugar daddies"?

We've all heard about younger women who marry much older men primarily for money or power.

[defendandprotect]

55. You can apply that question to all of marriage -- which was the only way women could

survive patriarchy at one time -- as they were deprived of family inheritance --

education, a right to make a living -- and even the right to their own children --

and were made property!!

And if they protested, they were threatened with being institutionalized.

Patriarchy is fascism -- and can only remain in power via violence, torture, intimidation --

[ismnotwasm]

54. I think tricks and pimps need to be tossed in jail

And prostitution completely decriminalized.

[Codeine]

73. Why toss johns in jail

if prostitution is decriminalized? Pimps are the lowest of the low, but if one party is not engaging in a criminal transaction how could the other party be judged a criminal?

[upi402]

56. 93% YES; but "our" party likes to moralize on this one too. forget it. n/t

[darkstar3]

57. If you could get pimp-less prostitutes (free-agents, if you will) of both genders, I'd say yes.

Since I don't see that happening, I'd say no.

[Very_Boring_Name]

78. So you believe that one's body should belong to them, so long as your specific requirements are met?

[darkstar3]

100. It's not about requirements.

I believe that men AND women should have full autonomy over the few square feet of space contained within their skins. If that full autonomy extends to charging for sex, then so be it.

I don't have a problem with people selling their own bodies. I have a problem with people selling the bodies of others.

As for my statement about "both genders", we have a societal problem at the moment. If we were to outlaw pimps and make prostitution legal with no other changes, the vast majority of prostitutes would be female because our society treats women as "the sex class" and expects them to adhere to that label. In our current society, since women are the sex class and femininity is derided, any man who chose to be a prostitute would be looked down upon.

Let me see if I can put it another way. I think that even in a perfect capitalistic society you're going to have people who wish to use their bodies to make money. As long as they choose to do that without being forced into it, I don't see a reason for that sale to be illegal. But our society has a long way to go before we can look at a prostitute of either gender and safely say to ourselves that they chose to do that.

Make sense?

[Green_Lantern]

156. it's odd to me that a progressive sees a capitalist society as..

Ever being ideal. I don't think we can assume a person can have full autonomy in an economic system with many shortfalls which create such desperation.

Does full autonomy mean people willing to work for $3 an hour should be allowed to do so?

[Citizen Worker]

59. Perhaps a more appropriate question would be, what is wrong with an economy that fails to create an

adequate number of jobs that pay a living wage? Why is it that some people in the richest country in the world are forced to prostitute themselves to earn enough money to attain a minimal quality of life? Of course, this is partly rhetorical but nonetheless an important question.

[RegieRocker]

60. It is legal, it's called marriage. You pay for life!

:sarcasm:

[Green_Lantern]

64. no because it pushes the mentality that women are property...

And that if you pay a woman enough you can do any demeaning thing to them.

As far as consent goes...if a woman refuses to press charges against an abusive husband few would say "Oh well, they are consenting adults."

I'll also compare to people willing to work for $2 an hour. Even if they "consent" to it. By law that's illegal despite the consent.

[Ramulux]

86. You are aware

that there are male prostitutes right?

[Green_Lantern]

104. yes I know there are male prostitutes but I was talking about...

The view of women as property...it's a different story with men.

[Hugabear]

113. One could argue the case that this could actually give women more control

Sex-for-money is going to happen regardless of whether it's legal or not. The question is do we want some pimp deciding who a prostitute sleeps with, or should we allow the woman do make that decision? When you make it illegal and force it underground, you're opening it up to all sorts of abuses, where it's much easier for a pimp to control a woman as his property.

[Green_Lantern]

115. I don't think they are all forced into it by pimps..

Others are forced it by past abuse and/or drug addiction.

I don't think legalizing prostitution is going to eliminate the desperation that makes women sell their bodies.

There are a lot of immigrants who come to the US and are willing to work for less than minimum wage. So should that be legalized?

I think you're assuming negative things are involved in prostitution because it is illegal rather than it being illegal because of the negative consequences.

[Hugabear]

125. I didn't say it would solve all problems

However, do you believe that the government should have the right to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body? After all, not all women go into prostitution out of desperation. But even for those who do it out of desperation - perhaps they have been unemployed for a long period of time, have children to take care of - and cannot find any other sources of income - should they be forbidden by the government for providing sexual services for a fee?

I can understand the argument that many find the idea of prostitution to be repugnant and degrading. I understand that many people have moral objections to it. However, does that override a woman's right to privacy?

[Green_Lantern]

129. yes I think govt has the power to tell people they can't agree to

Be exploited. As I said before if an immigrant is willing to work for $2 an hour should that be legal...it is their body.

It isn't private when it is solicited on the street and as a commodity.

Businesses and homes for instance are both private property yet the govt. can regulate a business in ways it never could in homes.

Also it is odd to suggest a prostitute willing to let random invade her body isn't already having her privacy invaded.

Also, you are going by the presumption that freedom to make a profit any way you want is a central human right.

[Hugabear]

130. But how far do you take that?

First of all, not all prostitution is solicited on the streets. For example, there are plenty of women like Heidi Fleiss who engage in very "upscale" prostitution, and are able to select whom they want to partner with, etc.

But secondly, what about a woman who hooks up with a series of random men simply for support? These men provide for these women for a little while, use them as sexual objects, and then toss them out on the street, and the cycle repeats itself. In this scenario, which happens all the time all over the world, these women are being exploited, but it's completely legal as long as there isn't a direct exchange of sex for money. If you're going to say that government has the right to forbid a woman from exploiting herself, then should the government also have the right to pass laws in this regard? There are people who would argue that's why they favor laws against premarital sex, adultery, and divorce.

And as far as your immigrant working for $2/hr, I don't see many people in this thread arguing in favor of legalizing prostitution without restrictions or regulations. Yes, government has the power to regulate business. So, just as the government would set standards such as minimum wage, safe working conditions, etc, they would be able to set conditions such as mandatory testing and safe environments.

[Green_Lantern]

132. I'd have to see that statistics about "upscale" call girls vs.

The exploited before I just assume the vast majority aren't the exploited type.

As far as the so-called hypocrisy of banning sex for money but not women being used for sex and not paid...the former involves using the advantage of money as a way to overpower a woman.

It is like a boss saying "sleep with me or lose your job."

[Hugabear]

136. Actually, they both do

You don't think that men use their money and power as a means to sexually exploit women? It's like a guy saying "if you let me sleep with you, I'll pay your bills and put a roof over your head" - but then when that guy gets tired of her, tosses her out and finds himself a new girl to exploit.

[Green_Lantern]

152. that statement may border on sexism..

That you think women are so eager to have men pay their bills and buy them houses that they'll screw any rich guy.

That may be why you don't see prostitution as exploitative, because you think to them it's just an easy road to riches.

[Volaris]

92. ok im not trying to start a fight, I just have some clarifying ?'s because I have'n't voted yet...

"...people willing to work for $2 an hour. Even if they "consent" to it. By law that's illegal despite the consent."...
Doesn't spousal abuse work the same way? Can't the State/Local Government press charges regardless? assault/battery ARE crimes after all...

"...because it pushes the mentality that women are property..."
I would say only for the unenlightened. (of which, I agree, there are many.) My ? is as follows...
would you agree that the ACTION of consentual sex is the sole property of the woman(or man)engaged in the transaction? I bring it up this way, because, as I understand it, the ACTION of labor or work USED to be considered the property of the workman or laborer, and as such, could be given away for free (if desired, as in helping a neighbor rebuild a burned-down barn,lets say) or sold for profit.. Its why there used to be a difference between WAGES and INCOME (where INCOME were profits accrued from investments or business ownership, and WAGES were not subject to taxes...)

again, not looking to start a fight, just some clarification (as it stands now, I'm leaning toward it being legal...)
many thanks in advance, and if you think you need to yell at me for being a pig-male, thats O.K. lol I understand=)

[Green_Lantern]

103. Well I'm a pig-male too....Pygmalian...

I think society and laws have viewed having sex as more than just an action of a person and actually the intimate "knowledge" of a person.

That's why rape, unlike burglary, is more than just property crime.

I just feel prostitution mostly involves desperate people allowing someone to invade their body.

[seabeyond]

199. That's why rape, unlike burglary, is more than just property crime

rape is against a body, a human being, a person. burlary is theft fo a thing.

difference between a thing and a person.

crime against a person should be more than theft of a thing.

i think that was an odd kinda of comparison

[Lorien]

143. Probably no more than marriage (traditionally) has. I used to be against prostitution

until I had a prostitute as a roommate. She felt like she was the one in charge; that her Johns were weak creatures totally controlled by their desires, and that she was the one taking advantage of them. She may have had a different view if she hadn't been a very pricey "Escort", I really don't know. But no one forced her into it and I certainly couldn't find any way to talk her into another line of work.

[Green_Lantern]

169. I'm sure there are examples of escorts who make good money...

And appear to live happy lives but still the men who hire them are using their power and money to coerce sex from her. There are also women working in high paying jobs but it isn't legal for her boss to expect sex in return.

These regulations are necessary due to the history of men using power and money to control women.

[WatsonT]

193. Men can be prostitues as well

and women can be "Johns".

"I'll also compare to people willing to work for $2 an hour. Even if they "consent" to it. By law that's illegal despite the consent."

Now you're just arguing the price though, not the commodity.

An exact analogy would be that it should be illegal to work at all under any circumstances due to fears of being demeaned in the process.

I for one am not a favor of dictating what adults may do with their own bodies (even if for some high minded "their own good reasons")

[Logical]

69. And health checks!

[iris27]

74. No, because a person's body is not a product for sale.

Same reason we don't let people sell one of their lungs, or kidneys, or a hunk of liver.

[JonLP24]

79. We let them sell blood

$20 and $35 seems to be the average rate.

[Ramulux]

84. Why do you get to tell someone..

what they can and can't do with their body? What if I let someone punch me in the face for $5 should that be illegal? Should no one be able to do anything with their body for money? What about athletes? They get paid to physically utilize their body's in a specific fashion.

Why can you get paid to play sports but not to have sex?

[Codeine]

138. I like that reasoning.

A man can receive millions for his ability to nail a long, curving free kick into the upper far corner of the goal, why can't he make a living for his ability to nail his long, curving freak dick into the upper reaches of a different goal? :rofl:

[Mulhane]

163. Because....

Unless the customer is attractive (not very likely) most men's chemistry wouldn't kick in. We can't "fake it."

[Green_Lantern]

157. well we sure tell people they can't agree to work for $3 an hour..

nt

[Codeine]

137. Mine is.

For the right price I'd let the grossest man or woman do me. :shrug: For the right price I'll clean out a cesspool or expel a dog's anal glands. I - like most of us, if we're honest - can be bought.

[ReggieVeggie]

148. tell that to the millions of models throughout the world

who sell the image of their bodies for big bucks

[Green_Lantern]

160. models are modelling clothing and aren't doing it to gratify men

Sexually. Secondly one could argue some modelling demeans women but you can't exactly ban photos.

[deaniac21]

76. Only if just one is a prositute.

[JVS]

81. Hiring two prostitutes to have sex with each other.

Now that's depraved! :freak:

[LynneSin]

80. Yes under a condition - I think prostitution should have some sort of regulation

Nothing serious but just regular testing to ensure they aren't spreading any diseases. I think that is required for all legal prostitutes in Nevada.

[dems_rightnow]

85. It should require 4

At least 3.

[CantAffordBootstraps]

89. Repubs are Doing it...

Actually, they're forcing the American people into prostitution. They're the pimps, big money/business the Johns, and the American people are being sold -- just another commodity.

[LWolf]

90. Yes. nt

[ehrnst]

91. The marriage of Anna Nicole Smith was a move in that direction, wasn't it? (nt)

[stuntcat]

95. long as we can make sure it's got nothing to do with kids

then yah, to each and stuff!

[Motown_Johnny]

96. No, coercion is the problem. A woman may consent to something just to

save herself from being beaten when she comes home without any money.


Prostitution has always been a way to subjugate women. Although there are some people who would willingly perform sex acts for pay, the damage it does to those who are coerced outweighs the restrictions on those who are not coerced.


In a perfect world I would be able to vote yes. Because I believe that legalizing prostitution would be a de-facto institutionalizing of rape, I must vote no.

[LiberalEsto]

97. Only if they are both prostitutes and pay each other nt

[aikoaiko]

99. Yes, but as a business with health implications it needs to be regulated. And even then...

...it won't have great impact on negative consequences of prostitution.

[backscatter712]

111. The big problem is the whole pimp-prostitute abuse dynamic.

Which means for the prostitute, it's NOT consensual.

And that means that the hypothetical purely consensual business transaction between a john and a prostitute doesn't happen very often.

[stevenleser]

124. Which is not related to the OP/poll. The OP and Poll are about consensual acts. n/t

[Hugabear]

114. I'm really trying to reconcile this with a woman's right to choose

If we truly believe that a woman has the right to decide what to do with her body, then shouldn't that extend to prostitution as well? I know it's a sensitive subject, and I know that there are many people who are vehemently opposed to a woman selling her body. But the key here is CHOICE. Should government have that power to tell a woman that she CAN NOT have sex for money? I think many people are confusing the moral and ethical concerns with legal concerns, and the right to privacy. Just because prostitution is legal doesn't mean that one has to like it.

Many of the problems associated with prostitution could be eliminated (or at least greatly reduced) through legalization and regulation. Certain activities - child prostitution, racketeering, false imprisonment, etc would still be illegal and could be prosecuted.

[Green_Lantern]

161. I don't see abortion in terms of a woman's right to choose...

what to do with her body but a woman's right to have the power to consent to what's done to her body.

I think prostitution takes away that power the way sexual harassment does.

[Fire Walk With Me]

127. Legal...and free. Imagine how much more peaceful America would be

if sex were a public service.

[seabeyond]

131. wow... that is the most disgusting post on this thread. haev women available to satisfy men at

their whim. can just walk by, bend em over and get on with life.

so disgusting

use a plastic doll so you dont even have to bother the women

[Fire Walk With Me]

166. Incredible...perhaps I mis-worded something, but I'm talking about everyone.

:shrug:

[Codeine]

139. Ugh. That was vile.

Come on, dude.

[Fire Walk With Me]

168. Americans are so anal about sex.

:hide:

[Green_Lantern]

173. the protest wasn't sex but the idea that women exist to pleasure..

Men.

[Fire Walk With Me]

175. Ah, thanks. I certainly don't agree with that concept. Please see my recent GD post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x844584

[seabeyond]

176. public service... legal and free, yes, must have been worded incorrectly

thanks for the clarification

and some of us have always had legal and free, no problem. lol

[Fire Walk With Me]

178. Thanks, sorry about that!

:hi:

[Codeine]

203. *snicker*

Okay, you got me. My irony gear was unengaged. :hi:

[Deep13]

128. Regulated for health, safety and labor standards, but legal. nt

[sarcasmo]

134. Legalized and taxed. Quit using our tax dollars on prostitution stings.

[hedgehog]

142. I voted "other" because for some reason, johns tend to mistake

teenagers for consenting adults.

[Forkboy]

146. I don't care who fucks who, nor do I care about their motivations.

What many in this thread seem to be ignoring in lieu of their favored argumentative position on the topic of human sexuality, is the inclusion in your OP of the word "consenting". There are people out there who get off by puking on one another, and while it may not be my personal bag, who am I to deny them the ipecac?

[TNLib]

150. I think if you legalized and regulated it then it would be much safer

for female and male prostitutes. I believe there will always be prostitution so why not legalize it and regulate so it will be safer.

I personally find the idea of prostitution repulsive. But I'd rather see it legalized and prostitutes have safer conditions.

[Green_Lantern]

162. just because it is regulated doesn't guarantee safety...

There will still be exploited street walkers.

[gort]

158. Are you talking about Koch Whores?

In that case no.

[The Straight Story]

172. As long as those adults don't smoke in the same room (even if they want to) I am for it

God knows we can only allow grown people to make the choices we think are best for them, cause they are too stupid (like the Indians and Aztecs) to make their own choices (they might sin, we have to save them).

[Green_Lantern]

174. it has nothing to do with sin or being a nanny...

It's about stopping the use of money and power to exploit women.

[Warren DeMontague]

188. So only adult women who make choices you agree with are capable of consent?

Other than that, they're being exploited and don't know better, the poor helpless dears. Right?

[Green_Lantern]

190. your putting words in my mouth so why should I keep talking to you..

You can just speak for me.

[Warren DeMontague]

195. Can people -adults- choose to be "exploited", or no?

If you're defining every consenting adult behavior you don't personally agree with as "exploitation" and non-consent, the concept of a "consenting adult" becomes meaningless.

[Green_Lantern]

197. talk with yourself if you are going to put words in my mouth..

nt

[The Straight Story]

198. So all women are exploited? None are free to make their own choices?

I think some of those women would take exception to that.

[WatsonT]

191. Sure, why not?

Few things matter less to me than what consenting adults choose to do in the bedroom.

[LadyHawkAZ]

200. Question for y'all with the "no" votes...

What part of "consent" do you not understand?

Every "No" post that I have read has been about "coercion", "kidnapping", "force", "beatings", "pimps" and all the other emotional-trigger keywords that do NOT involve consent, would still be illegal under a legal, regulated environment and are in fact the by-products of the illegal trade- the very thing you are supporting.

I did it for years, no coercion involved. It's not that bad a job. Really. It's not for everyone, but neither is brain surgeon or fry cook. It was MY choice, MY decision and it paid very well. And for those about to ask, yes, I am in a relationship- with a man!- and my current sex life is fine.

It's legal to give away free, there is no reason it shouldn't be legal to sell if that is what both parties agree on. Telling any woman that SHE is not qualified to decide when, where and who SHE has sex with, and a third party will make the decision for her, reduces women to the level of mentally incapable children and degrades them as human beings. Whether you agree with it or not, that decision is not yours to make. Make it for yourself, but don't try to make it for the rest of us.

[Warren DeMontague]

202. It's the same sort of tortured logic you see backing up all sorts of authoritarian nonsense.

For instance, no one can come up with a coherent, consistent, logical reason why consenting adults shouldn't be free to smoke pot in their own homes- so invariably it becomes about 'the children', or 'the message', or, heaven forfend, it's a gateway drug and a slippery slope and before you know it someone will be putting actual smack in sugar smacks.

If the anti-pot people were at least halfway honest, the answer would be: 1) We want to run other peoples' lives, 2) we don't like pot smokers, and (oftentimes) 3) We have a vested financial interest in the anti-pot gravy train.

Invariably- when you're talking about justifying this sort of nanny state running of peoples' lives, making peoples' personal decisions for them, there is always a long string of seemingly logical but ultimately unrelated diversionary talking points. This stuff about non-consent; as I've noted before, it's the exact same tack anti-choicers take when they try to paint women who have abortions as "victims" of the "abortion industry", and the poor dears just don't understand what they're doing.

Yes, it's this tiresome we know better attitude that seems to underlie so many of these issues.



Thank you, for your post, by the way. :thumbsup:

[ecstatic]

205. Sure. If free sex is legal,

then why is paid sex illegal? Still, men who patronize prostitutes disgust me. Half the time they are married with kids.