Libyan Revolution Day 53

[joshcryer]

Links to sites with updates: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-11">AJE Live Blog April 11 (today) http://blogs.aljazeera.net/twitter-dashboard">AJE Twitter Dashboard http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/libya">The Guardian http://uk.reuters.com/places/libya">Reuters http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/">Telegraph http://feb17.info/">feb17.info http://www.livestream.com/libya17feb?utm_source=lsplayer&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=footerlinks">Libya Alhurra (live video webcast from Benghazi) http://www.libyafeb17.com/">libyafeb17.com

Twitter links: http://twitter.com/#!/aymanm">Ayman Mohyeldin, with AJE http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn">Ben Wedeman, with CNN http://twitter.com/#!/tripolitanian">tripolitanian, a Libyan from Tripoli http://twitter.com/#!/BaghdadBrian">Brian Conley, reporter in Libya http://twitter.com/#!/freelibyanyouth">FreeLibyanYouth, Libyan advocate http://twitter.com/#!/LibyaFeb17_com">LibyaFeb17.com twitter account http://twitter.com/#!/ChangeInLibya">ChangeInLibya, Libyan advocate

Useful links: http://audioboo.fm/feb17voices">feb17voices http://www.google.com/search?q=time+in+libya">Current time in Libya http://www.islamicfinder.org/cityPrayerNew.php?country=libya">Prayer times in Libya

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x854733">Day 52 here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixwx_B38678">Marching On in Libya, for the revolutionaries!

A rebel fighter carries his food on the road between Ajdabiya and Brega on Saturday.

Photograph: AFP/Odd Andersen

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8441559/Libya-Nato-launches-fresh-attack-in-boost-for-rebels.html">Libya: Nato launches fresh attack in boost for rebels
The strikes were designed to counter an assault by the dictator whose soldiers carried out sustained shelling and artillery attacks over the weekend.

Coalition aircraft targeted Gaddafi troops outside Ajdabiya, in eastern Libya and Misurata, the only rebel held town in the west, which has been under siege for six weeks.

The strikes came as a delegation of African leaders arrived in Tripoli to try and persuade Gaddafi to halt the violence being meted on his own people.

Jacob Zuma of South Africa and Denis Sassou Nguesso of Congo were among those who flew to the capital and plan to go on to the rebel stronghold of Benghazi.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8439951/Libya-cash-fuel-and-food-running-short-in-Benghazi.html">Libya: cash, fuel and food running short in Benghazi
By now, Doctor Ahmed El Ojeli thought he would be working for a new, free Libya, and Muammar Gaddafi would be a bad memory.

Instead, on Friday he buried his student Salah Al Awamy, a medic who had died the previous day in a disastrous Nato "friendly fire" airstrike against a rebel tank column.

"I really didn't think our revolution would take this long, or be so bloody," Dr Ojeli said at Friday prayers, held on Benghazi seafront. "But now we think our struggle could go on for a long time yet and there will be many more dead."

He attended with other doctors before heading to the city's cemetery, where dozens of rebels were buried last week. Nobody is sure how many in total have been killed in Libya's eight-week uprising. Iman Boughaghis, a rebel spokeswoman, said the estimated figure for their supporters who have died is around 15,000.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2011/04/10/AFtGkXFD_story.html">Libyan rebels regain control of Ajdabiya
BENGHAZI - NATO airstrikes destroyed tanks belonging to forces loyal to Moammar Gaddafi at the western gate of Ajdabiya on Sunday, as rebels reestablished control of the strategic eastern city.

Rockets still landed inside the nearly deserted city on Sunday but a military official with the rebel council said they had complete control by Sunday afternoon.

Meanwhile, members of the Transitional National Council, which governs the rebel-held east, met with Western diplomats in the temporary opposition capital of Benghazi. Officials said they discussed the role of NATO, which has come under severe criticism for not striking Gaddafi forces early enough to avert a humanitarian crisis or advances by Gaddafi’s forces.

Forces loyal to Gaddafi stormed the rebel stronghold Ajdabiya on Saturday for the first time since coalition airstrikes began last month, moving the front line closer to Benghazi.

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=230433&sn=Detail&pid=71616">R68.9m in arms sold to Libya in 2010
The Democratic Alliance (DA) believes that Jeff Radebe, Chairperson of the National Conventional Arms Control Committee (NCACC), should be summoned to appear before the Joint Standing Committee on Defence to explain how it is that conventional arms were exported to some of the most repressive regimes in the world in 2010.

...

The NCACC's 2010 annual report also finally provides clear evidence that conventional arms were exported to Libya in 2010. However, the annual report only reveals the category of conventional arms exported to Libya. So, we are going to have to wait for the Public Protector to finalise the investigation into the alleged sale of more than 100 sniper rifles and more than 50 000 rounds of ammunition to Libya in 2010.

The NCACC now appears to be above the law, routinely authorising conventional arms sales to repressive regimes, and operating beyond proper scrutiny and oversight by Parliament. The DA therefore calls on Jerome Maake, Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence, to schedule an urgent hearing for Jeff Radebe, Chairperson of the NCACC, to explain why conventional arms sales are being authorised to some of the most repressive regimes in the world.

Note: NCACC is a South African committee.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/04/10/uk-libya-east-idUKTRE7392E020110410">NATO bombs Gaddafi forces attacking key rebel town
NATO aircraft hit six vehicles carrying Libyan government soldiers during an assault on the eastern town of Ajdabiyah Sunday, killing at least 15.

The strikes appeared to have helped break an assault by forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi on Ajdabiyah, a strategic town 150 km (90 miles) km south of the rebel stronghold of Benghazi.

In Brussels, NATO said it had destroyed 25 government tanks in air strikes during the day -- 11 near Ajdabiyah and 14 on the outskirts of Misrata, the only rebel bastion in western Libya that has been under siege for six weeks.

"The situation in Ajdabiyah, and Misrata in particular, is desperate for those Libyans who are being brutally shelled by the (Gaddafi) regime," said Canadian Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard, who commands NATO's Libya operations.

http://www.vimeo.com/21372525">Photographer John Moore on 'Epic' Libya Battles, Arab World Revolutions - video
Photographer John Moore is no stranger to combat. As a member of an Associated Press team in 2005, he shared a Pulitzer Prize for breaking news photography for coverage of the war in Iraq and he's done extended stints in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, South Africa, Mexico and Nicaragua and elsewhere in the last 20 years.

Note: video at link with a gallery of images and narration

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/02/25/world/middleeast/map-of-how-the-protests-unfolded-in-libya.html">Click here for updated map

Video of the convoy sent to take Benghazi, taken from a dead soliders cell phone (shows how massive the operation was): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWwOeZqz6M

Sky News went with Gaddafi minders to find a "civilian town bombed" only they were never shown any such thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O5KJavfiQo

TNC presser talking about various details of the revolution (thanks to Waiting for Everyone): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=730234&mesg_id=731532

Topic on the women of the revolution, dispels myths that they are treated poorly: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x594751

Videos to bring the Libyan Revolution into context:

The Battle of Benghazi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vChMDuNd0

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaPnMnpCAA

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMzwQvcx62s

Tea of Freedom Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD5tu5bJWKc

Latest indiscriminate shelling in Misurata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wop3C4zrPXI

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x677397">Text of the resolution.

How will a no fly zone work? AJE reports: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWEwehTtK2k

Canada: http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110317/cf-libya-canada/20110317/?hub=WinnipegHome">Canada to send six CF-18s for Libya 'no-fly' mission Norway: http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFOSN00509220110318">Norway to join military intervention in Libya Belgium: http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/monde/2011-03-18/la-belgique-prete-a-une-operation-militaire-en-libye-828970.php">Belgium ready for a military operation in Libya Qatar and the UAE: http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/776/?SID=e80884adc09a37d26904578a9b5978cb">Run-up for Western world’s next military commitment ... with unusual support Denmark: http://www.cphpost.dk/news/international/89-international/51229-denmark-ready-for-action-against-gaddafi.html">Denmark ready for action against Gaddafi France: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/world/africa/19libya.html?src=twrhp">Following U.N. Vote, France Vows Libya Action ‘Soon’ Italy: http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE72G2HE20110317">Italy to make bases available for Libya no-fly zone-source United Kingdom: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12770467">Libya: UK forces prepare after UN no-fly zone vote United States: http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/nations-draw-up-plans-for-no-fly-zone-over-libya-1.2765122">Nations draw up plans for no-fly zone over Libya Jordan: http://www.smh.com.au/world/military-strikes-on-libya-within-hours-20110318-1bzii.html?from=smh_sb">Military strikes on Libya 'within hours' Spain: http://english.cri.cn/6966/2011/03/19/2801s627320.htm">Spain Expected to Join NATO No-fly Zone Enforcement over Libya

"One month ago (Western countries) were sooo nice, so nice like pussycats," Saif says in a contemptuous sing-song tone."Now they want to be really aggressive like tigers. (But) soon they will come back, and cut oil deals, contracts. We know this game." - http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058389,00.html">Saif Gaddafi

(Yeah, Saif, as if you weren't "cutting oil deals, contracts" with western states. Who are the 'tigers' now? Bombing your own people.)

http://jenkinsear.com/2011/03/19/a-legal-war-the-united-nations-participation-act-and-libya/">A Legal War: The United Nations Participation Act and Libya
The above link is to an overview of why Obama's implementation of the NFZ and R2P is perfectly legal under the law. I will not post it entirely here, however, all objections come down to the misinformed position that Obama, by using forces in Libya, was invoking Article 43 of the United Nations. This is wrong. Obama invoked Article 42, which does not require congressional approval to implement. Proof of this is that Article 43 has http://www.un.org/en/sc/repertoire/actions.shtml#rel5">never been used.

It goes like this: The US law (Title 22, Chap. 7, Subchap. XIV § 287d) grants the President the right to invoke UN Article 42 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode22/usc_sec_22_00000287---d000-.html">without authorization, the War Powers Act (Title 50, Chap. 33 § 1541) grants the President permission to act without authorization under http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/1541–1548.html">"specific statutory authorization" which, by definition, is what 287d does. § 1543 of the War Powers Act requires the President to report to Congress, http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/obama_explains_libya_mission_to_congress/2011/03/03/ABU9377_blog.html">which he did. One can argue all day and night about the legality of the War Powers Act, doesn't change the fact that under the law as it is written, the President acted within the law.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-10-0">March 10 7:28pm Saif al Islam Gaddafi says "the time has come for full-scale military action" against Libyan rebels. He goes on to say that Libyan forces loyal to his family "will never surrender, even if western powers intervene".

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/2011/03/2011328194855872276.html">Libyan Karzai? Chalabi? Forget it
Fortunately, the Council wasn't made-in-the-USA or manufactured by another foreign power. Rather it came into existence, a month ago, at Libyans' own initiative, soon after the winds of revolutionary change blew Libya's way, and after its people rose to the occasion with pride and courage.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/03/31/getting_libyas_rebels_wrong">Getting Libya's Rebels Wrong
Don't buy Qaddafi's line: The rebels aren't al Qaeda.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2011/04/04/110404taco_talk_anderson#ixzz1HvS7iW22">Who Are the Rebels?
During weeks of reporting in Benghazi and along the chaotic, shifting front line, I’ve spent a great deal of time with these volunteers. The hard core of the fighters has been the shabab—the young people whose protests in mid-February sparked the uprising. They range from street toughs to university students (many in computer science, engineering, or medicine), and have been joined by unemployed hipsters and middle-aged mechanics, merchants, and storekeepers. There is a contingent of workers for foreign companies: oil and maritime engineers, construction supervisors, translators. There are former soldiers, their gunstocks painted red, green, and black—the suddenly ubiquitous colors of the pre-Qaddafi Libyan flag.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/29/vision-democratic-libya-interim-national-council">A vision of a democratic Libya
The interim national council, formed by opposition groups in Libya, has said it will hold free and fair elections and draft a national constitution. Here is its eight-point plan in full.

Mohammed Nabbous, killed by Gaddafi's forces while trying to report on the massacre in Benghazi

"I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to lose the battle" -Mohammed Nabbous, a month ago when all this began

I'm struggling to come up with something to say about this man. I was not aware of the Libyan uprising until I saw Mo's first report, begging for help, posted here on DU. I was stricken. Here was a man giving everything he had to explain a situation that clearly terrified him, I would not call him a coward in that moment, but you could see the fear in his eyes, and desperation in his voice. For 30 days Nabbous would spend many hours covering the uprising in Benghazi. For many nights I would go to sleep with the webcast of Benghazi live on my computer screen, looking to it occasionally to be sure it was still 'there.' Mo treated the chat room as if we were his friends, and in some way, we were. I never signed up to LiveStream to thank him for all his work and it seems somewhat shallow to do so now, given that I was a lurker for so long. Ever since I took over posting these threads "Libya Alhurra" has been linked as a source of information. It wasn't until last night, when I posted, and twitter posted on Mo's adventures out into Benghazi to try to determine the truth of the situation, that Mo's webchannel became a hit, over 2000 people were watching him stream live. This was curious to him because he'd done many reports like this in the past but he appeared somewhat bemused that the view count exploded as it did. Last night Mo became a star. This is a man who first started out with a webcast replete with fear and desperation finally overcoming that aspect of himself and losing that fear, to become someone who was a fighter for the resistance just as much as those who held the guns. Reporting on the front lines of Benghazi became his final act, and for that he should never, ever be forgotten. I'm so sorry Mo that I never got to know you better.

Mo's first report, which many of you may remember, begging for help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38EXALI60hg

Mo's last report, a fallen hero trying to spread the word to the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecu_iWLn-rg

Mo leaves behind a wife who is with child, she had http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/23/a_bright_voice_from_libyas_darkness">this to say about the No Fly Zone and R2P UN resolution:

We started this in a pure way, but he turned it bloody. Thousands of our men, women, and children have died. We just wanted our freedom, that's all we wanted, we didn't want power. Before, we could not do a single thing if it was not the way he wanted it. All we wanted was freedom. All we wanted was to be free. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up. We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Libya got liberated by anybody else. If NATO didn't start moving when they did, I assure you, I assure you, half of Benghazi if not more would have been killed. If they stop helping us, we are going to be all killed because he has no mercy anymore.

[joshcryer]

1. Current time in Libya, 12:05am Monday, April 11

Dang, sorry I was late, I watched this video 4 times in a row, wow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTzTt1VnHRM

[tabatha]

2. Qaddafi's Great Arms Bazaar

During his 42 years in power, Libyan leader Muammar al-Qaddafi's unpredictable behavior has become the stuff of legend. But on one issue Qaddafi was remarkably consistent: He was unrelentingly obsessed with purchasing a massive arsenal of weapons from whoever was offering them. As a result, much of Libya resembles one vast arms bazaar -- a museum of curiosities for arms inspectors, and a gallery of horror for those concerned about the safety of civilians. With the collapse of Qaddafi's control in eastern Libya, vast amounts of weapons and munitions are now up for grabs, often to whoever gets there first.

I have been traveling around eastern Libya for most of the past six weeks, since the first days of the regime's collapse, trying to establish a record of the ongoing human rights abuses in the country. Human Rights Watch has been investigating the large-scale killings of protesters by Qaddafi's forces in February, as well as the more recent possible forced disappearance of hundreds of people into the custody of Qaddafi's fighters at the front. Reporting from eastern Libya has been a roller-coaster ride: I have witnessed the euphoria of the uprising's early days, as Libyans celebrated their newfound freedom, to the despair of just a few weeks ago as Qaddafi's forces were once again at the gates of Benghazi. For many in eastern Libya now coming to grips with the limitations of their own untrained and unskilled rebels, the future remains uncertain. For these people, there is no middle ground -- either the rebellion succeeds, or they face certain death if Qaddafi regains control of the East.

And we've been looking at weapons and munitions -- lots of them. These arsenals represent a matter of pressing concern for human rights organizations because in the wrong hands, powerful military weapons can wreak havoc on the civilian population. In 2003, Human Rights Watch researchers deployed all over Iraq to inform U.S. authorities of the massive, unsecured weapons caches that we had found scattered across the country, urging them to secure the stocks. But the U.S. and allied armed forces, too busy looking for nonexistent weapons of mass destruction, failed to act. We watched in despair as weapons stocks were looted in places like Baquba, where Saddam's Second Military College had vast supplies of powerful munitions.

................

The news is not all grim. Part of the good news is that the opposition forces in eastern Libya have now begun to take stronger steps to secure the weapon storage facilities in the areas under their control, and have begun to deploy military teams to collect dangerous unexploded and abandoned weapons. Human Rights Watch has been meeting with opposition officials, both civilian and military, for weeks now to discuss the dangers posed by some of these weapons as well as other human rights concerns, and have been impressed by their willingness to consider our recommendations and take corrective actions. A lot remains to be done, of course, but the commitment of the rebel authorities to break with the past and build a modern country that respects civil rights seems sincere and consistent with their actions to date. We'll continue to watch them and their conduct closely.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/08/qaddafi_s_great_arms_bazaar?page=0,0

(re-post and GD cross-posted - this is probably one of many reasons to get Gaddafi out)

[joshcryer]

3. Also check the OP, I posted a story about Gaddafi's arms from South Africa.

[tabatha]

4. Yeah, I had seen that story once before

at mg.co.za - but it was denied, so I forgot about it. I see it is back again.

http://mg.co.za/article/2011-04-10-sa-sold-arms-worth-r70million-to-libya

"Denel denies sales to Libya
Arms manufacturer Denel on April 1 denied it, or its subsidiaries, had sold armaments to Libya following a sales trip to the country a year ago.

"Not at all," the company's acting group communications manager, Pamela Malinda, told the South African Press Association (Sapa) when asked whether any such sales had taken place.

The Mail & Guardian published details on April 1 from a leaked Denel internal memo outlining a visit to Libya in April last year, which involved the "planned sale of G6-52 artillery systems, missiles, grenade launchers and anti-materiel rifles".

The business opportunities for Denel in Libya amounted to R6 289-million."


It is ironic that the development of some of these weapons occurred under the Apartheid regime to fight the uprising there.

[joshcryer]

5. Libya: Col Gaddafi 'accepts road map to peace'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8441924/Libya-Col-Gaddafi-accepts-road-map-to-peace.html">Libya: Col Gaddafi 'accepts road map to peace'
The road map calls for an immediate ceasefire, opening channels for humanitarian aid and talks between the rebels and government. Gaddafi has ignored the ceasefire he announced after international airstrikes were authorised last month.

Mr Zuma was party of a delegation of African leaders who arrived in Tripoli to try and persuade Gaddafi to halt the violence being meted on his own people.

Mr Zuma and Denis Sassou Nguesso of Congo were among those who flew to the capital and plan to go on to the rebel stronghold of Benghazi.

The meeting came as Nato launched a fresh attack on forces loyal to Gaddafi, destroying 25 tanks and providing a much-needed boost to the rebel fighters.

[joshcryer]

6. Libyan refugees tell of region suffering in silence

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73908B20110410?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true">Libyan refugees tell of region suffering in silence
DEHIBA, Tunisia, April 10 (Reuters) - Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's forces are shelling homes, poisoning wells and threatening to rape women in a remote mountain region, out of sight of the outside world, said people who fled the area.

The violence in the Western Mountains region, a sparsely-populated area reached only by winding roads, has received little of the international attention given to attacks on cities on the coast such as Misrata and Ajdabiyah.

But residents who escaped the region in the past three days, loading suitcases and mattresses onto their cars and driving across the border into Tunisia, said they were subject to a campaign of terror.

They now want their story to be heard.

Wow, must read.

[defendandprotect]

34. K/R --

[joshcryer]

7. Translated: A Comprehensive report of all the events in the city of Misratah April 9th

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/04/translated-a-comprehensive-report-of-all-the-events-in-the-city-of-misratah-april-9th/">Translated: A Comprehensive report of all the events in the city of Misratah April 9th
A report on the latest events in the city of Misratah for today, Saturday 9th April 2011. Battles and the sound of explosions is continuous from last night. Many clashes occurred and the biggst and most important happened in the eastern entrance and specifically around the Medical College. Since last night, the revolutionaries have been waging continuous attacks on the Medical College which currently houses Gaddafi’s forces and have managed to destroy their ammunition stocks. This forced Gaddafi’s troops to withdraw and restation themselves in the College of Sciences which is directly behind the Medical College. Before leaving they kept a handful of mercenaries and snipers in the Medical College, but the majority of them are now stationed in the College of Sciences. The revolutionaries also managed to destroy 2 tanks today, one of them was of model type T-90. They also killed 6 snipers and the battles are still continuous.

The second battle was in the Heavy Trucks road. The revolutionaries managed to attack Gaddafi’s troops and force them to retreat backwards. They killed a large number from them and managed to sieze more than one four-wheel drive truck.

As for Tripoli Street, the revolutionaries are in control of the majority of the street and are blocking areas of it with shipping crates filled with sand. They are surrounding the snipers stationed in the “Mheshi” building and are preventing any kind of supplies from reaching them.

The area of “Gzeer” remains as it was. Gaddafi’s forces are still stationed inside the school of Yarmook and are being surrounded by revolutionaries who are preventing any kind of supplies from reaching them.

[tabatha]

8. Details of roadmap

12:18am: Anita reminds us of the contents of the Africa Union roadmap:

1. Ceasefire & protection of civilians.

2. Humanitarian aid for Libyans & foreign workers – especially Africans.

3. Dialogue between the two sides.

4. An inclusive transitional period.

5. Political reforms which “meet the aspirations of the Libyan people”.

If Zuma’s right, and Gaddafi has accepted these proposals, that could be pretty significant.

http://feb17.info/news/live-libyan-unrest-april-10/

[joshcryer]

9. "4. An inclusive transitional period."

Why does Gaddafi keep giving up the same proposal?

[tabatha]

10. Yep, these points can be interpreted in a number of ways.

I would hope that UN oversees this.

[joshcryer]

11. Gaddafi has to go.

[tabatha]

13. There will never be an end of this if he and his offspring do not go.

It is a given.

I think he is afraid of the ICC - wonder what the bargain was.

However, Tutu said it does not matter if he is not tried - the most important thing is to get him out.

[joshcryer]

15. That's what I don't like about "inclusive transitional period" because it sounds like...

...they want to be included. ie, this is Saif's offer from 3 weeks ago, rebranded, for a third fucking time.

[defendandprotect]

35. That would be like having Hitler participate in Yalta --

[David__77]

28. Well the answer to that is clear, no?

Diplomacy is warfare by other means. But, nominally, this is not his proposal. On the surface, most peace deals are "inclusive," in that there is amnesty or inclusion in governing, etc. Look at Czechoslovakia or Poland in 1989. The anti-communists didn't get everything they wanted, but there was a fundamental change. Jaruzelski presided over martial law, but remained president of post-communist Poland for some time. There are ways to seize power that are not superficially "100%," but may be in fact.

[tabatha]

12. BHL returns to Benghazi

Bernard-Henri Levy, French philosopher and journalist, has returned to the city of Benghazi.
He says he has returned in order to continue his "work of free spirit" and promote the vision of the pro-democracy leaders.
He spoke with Al Jazeera's Laurence Lee.

http://youtu.be/w2k4ENlZ9JU

Don't know much about this guy.

[joshcryer]

14. BHL is hit and miss, egomaniac more than anything else.

His ego causes him to fail philosophically, because it forgets to be thorough.

Overall I'm glad he did what he did to get the French to intervene.

[joshcryer]

16. Map of Gaddafi’s attacks on the Western Mountains region

edit: resized

click here for large version: http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/04/map-of-gaddafis-attacks-on-the-western-mountains-region/

[Turborama]

31. Interesting, didn't know about it until seeing that map

Thanks for sharing.

[joshcryer]

17. Libya: Gaddafi has accepted roadmap to peace, says Zuma

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/10/libya-african-union-gaddafi0-rebels-peace-talks">Libya: Gaddafi has accepted roadmap to peace, says Zuma
The Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi, has accepted a roadmap to a political solution to the deadlocked two-month-old conflict, South Africa's president, Jacob Zuma, has said in Tripoli.

Zuma, who led a five-strong African Union (AU) delegation to the Libyan capital, said he was optimistic that a settlement would be reached. The delegation, minus Zuma, who was leaving Libya on Sunday night, will travel to Benghazi today to present the plan to the rebel opposition leadership.

Referring to officials of the regime, Zuma told reporters inside Gaddafi's compound at Bab al-Azizia that "the brother leader delegation has accepted the roadmap as presented by us". He also called on Nato to stop air strikes on Libyan military targets "to give a ceasefire a chance".

Asked about the prospects of a deal, Zuma - who has had a close relationship with Gaddafi, said: "I am optimistic."

[joshcryer]

18. AU official says Gaddafi exit was discussed

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/04/11/uk-libya-au-gaddafi-idUKTRE73A01S20110411">AU official says Gaddafi exit was discussed
n African Union official said Monday the issue of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's stepping down had been discussed during peace talks in Tripoli.

"There was some discussion on this but I cannot report on this. It has to remain confidential," said Ramtane Lamamra, AU Commissioner for Peace and Security. "It's up to the Libyan people to chose their leaders democratically."

Slightly surprising, though I suppose the AU couldn't walk away without having been able to claim that it was discussed.

[Turborama]

20. The African Court on Human and Peoples' Rights is the legal arm of the African Union

And they want him for "massive violations of human rights": http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4794653#4796049

I wonder if the AU mentioned that when they were discussing his exit...? :shrug:

:hi:

[joshcryer]

21. Good find, ha!

[tabatha]

23. Interesting.

The Apartheid regime could have been brought up on human rights violations. Hence the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
Gaddafi's human violations have been massive in comparison.
Zuma has to be aware of this.

[joshcryer]

19. Video: Misrata areas severely damaged by artillery and shelling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DheS_6HDKzQ

[defendandprotect]

37. After the unbelievable shelling, murders -- they've destroyed infrastructure to flood homes ....

G thugs blocked the sewers flooding homes and streets --

and seems such tremendous damange now that it looks unrepairable --

The International community -- human rights -- Red Cross -- United Nations --

have to get there and begin reporting on all of this -- not just Misurata, either!!

There is no way Gaddafi could stay if the world fully understood what G has been doing!!

[joshcryer]

22. Video: ‘Urban warfare’ in Misrata

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrqEGzoR6EM

[tabatha]

24. Qaddafi’s Handling of Media Shows Regime’s Flaws

TRIPOLI, Libya — Even the Qaddafi government escort could not contain his disbelief at the sloppiness of the fraud: bloodstains his colleagues had left on bedsheets in a damaged hospital room for more than a week as evidence of civilian casualties from Western airstrikes.

“This is not even human blood!” the escort erupted to group of journalists, making a gesture with his hands like squeezing a tube. “I told them, ‘Nobody is going to believe this!’ ” he explained, as Elizabeth Palmer, a correspondent for CBS News, later recalled. His name was withheld for his protection.

For the more than 100 international journalists cloistered here at the invitation of the Qaddafi government, its management — or, rather, staging — of public relations provided a singular inside view of how this autocracy functions in a crisis.

As the incident of the faked blood shows, the Qaddafi government’s most honest trait might be its lack of pretense to credibility or legitimacy. It lies, but it does not try to be convincing or even consistent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/11/world/africa/11tripoli.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&

[MedleyMisty]

25. Seems to be doing just fine at manipulating lots of Westerners

Which I suppose also shows our regime's flaws.

[defendandprotect]

38. Todays reports of his appearance seem to suggest

the media see something like a rejuvenated, re-energized Kaddafi!!

The protesters say that he is on drugs!!

[pinboy3niner]

39. Someone may have spiked his Nescafe...

:evilgrin:

[midnight]

26. So many forces turning these poor people into victims...

I wish them great success trying to decipher the B.S.

[tabatha]

27. Rare look at convoy of #Gaddafi soldiers heading to #Misrata:

Gaddafi's henchmen attack Taorghae on the eastern entrance of Misurata

http://youtu.be/lTH9n1v4SEE


PiccolaBee‎ RT @Tripolitanian: #Gaddafi has begun the Road Map to Peace by launching a fresh attack on #Misrata | #Libya #Feb17

AndrewSmith09‎ RT @feb17voices: LPC #Misrata: attack on Steel Factory/Fuel Depot poses threat to safety of several thousand refugees. #Libya #revolution

ShababLibya‎ I just saw a photo of an infant shot dead by #Gaddafi forces in his mothers womb! How long does this need to go on? #libya #feb17

[tabatha]

29. Gadhafi OKs plan to stop fighting, allow peacekeepers, statement says

Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- Embattled Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi has agreed in principle to stop all hostilities in his North African nation and let in outside forces to help keep the peace, his government and African Union mediators said Monday in a joint statement.

...................

The start of talks involving various Libyan authorities, including opposition figures, with the aim of setting up "an inclusive transition period" to adopt and implement "political reforms necessary for the elimination of the causes of the current crisis"

The agreement, which the statement said Gadhafi had signed off on, states that the final resolution must consider "the aspirations of the Libyan people for democracy, political reform, justice, peace and security, as well as social ... development."

No timetable was spelled out, as to when and if a cease-fire might take effect or the political transition might take place. In the agreement, Gadhafi does voice support for the "deployment of an effective and credible monitoring mechanism."

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/04/11/libya.war/index.html?eref=edition_africa&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fedition_africa+%28RSS%3A+Africa%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

[tabatha]

30. #Libya opposition leader says #Gaddafi's price for AU peace deal too high.

http://audioboo.fm/boos/327011-libya-opposition-leader-says-gaddafi-s-price-for-au-peace-deal-too-high

[joshcryer]

32. Gaddafi accepts peace plan but rebels say he must go

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/04/11/uk-libya-idUKLDE71Q0MP20110411">Gaddafi accepts peace plan but rebels say he must go
Muammar Gaddafi has accepted a roadmap for ending the conflict in Libya including an immediate cease-fire, the African Union said on Monday, but an opposition representative said it would only work if Gaddafi left power.

South African President Jacob Zuma, who met Gaddafi at the head of a delegation of African leaders, urged NATO to stop air strikes on government targets to "give cease-fire a chance."

Earlier truce offers from Gaddafi have come to nothing and rebels, who took up arms across the east and in some towns in the west after he crushed protests in February, have said they will accept nothing less than an end to his 41 year-old rule.

Asked if the issue of Gaddafi stepping down was discussed at his talks with an African Union delegation in Tripoli, Ramtane Lamamra, AU Commissioner for Peace and Security, told reporters: "There was some discussion."

[defendandprotect]

33. K/R -- and ...

was hoping this was a sign of Gaddafi blinking -- but seemingly not --

and possibly a rejuvenated Gaddafi?!!!


Things do look better, however, when NATO is more aggressive in stopping --

was weather mainly responsible for the very slow GO?

"There is no other solution than the military solution, because this dictator's language is annihilation, and people who speak this language only understand this language," spokesman Ahmad Bani told al Jazeera television.

NATO INTENSIFIES ATTACKS

NATO, mandated by the United Nations to protect civilians in Libya from attacks by Gaddafi's forces, said it had increased the tempo of its air operations over the weekend, after rebels accused it of responding too slowly to government attacks.

The insurgents hailed the more muscular approach.

The NATO strikes outside Ajdabiyah on Sunday helped break the biggest assault by Gaddafi's forces on the eastern front for at least a week. The town is the gateway to the rebel stronghold of Benghazi 150 km (90 miles) north up the Mediterranean coast.


Libyans would have mopped up G a month ago had G not been so heavily weaponized --

and been able to buy an army of mercenaries.

ALSO isn't the UN and others coming in this week to investigate Misurata, for one --

and other human rights issues? Destruction of these cities -- ?

Am I nuts in thinking that if any truth of what Gaddafi has actually been doing to Libyans

gets out, Gaddafi will be forced to move out immediately?

And -- presume also a rude awakening for many who buy the nonsense that Libyans are just too

dumb to be objecting to this 41 year rule of violence by G and has to be CIA/US pushing them?

How many lives lost -- and all for the US/CIA? What crap!

[pinboy3niner]

36. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 8 AM MONDAY, APRIL 11

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[pinboy3niner]

40. Several thousand migrants stranded in Misrata: ICRC

– Sun Apr 10, 1:50 pm ET


GENEVA (AFP) – The International Red Cross expressed concern on Sunday about several thousand foreign migrants stranded in the open in the besieged Libyan port of Misrata.

The group was found living under tarpaulins and shelters by an International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) team that entered the city by sea for a day to evaluate medical conditions and aid needs, spokeswoman Nicole Engelbrecht said.

"Our main concern right now is the stranded foreign nationals living in the vicinity of the port," she told AFP.

The Libyan Red Crescent "are estimating that we are talking 6,000 to 7,000 people, from Egypt, Sudan, Chad and other countries," Engelbrecht added.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110410/wl_africa_afp/libyaconflictreliefmigrationmisrataicrc_20110410175038

[pinboy3niner]

41. "...the African roadmap may remain wishful thinking"

Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught reports from Tripoli:

Watch at AJE...

8:26am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-11


...OR on YouTube:

Gaddafi accepts roadmap to peace (2:13):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP-qk6FRCgo&feature=player_embedded

[pinboy3niner]

42. Libyan rebels push back--Gaddafi forces driven back 40 miles W. of Ajdabiyah

Source: AP

Posted on Mon, Apr. 11, 2011


Libyan rebels push back


They were aided by NATO strikes taking out 25 tanks. Shelling of Ajdabiya stopped.


By Sebastian Abbot and Hadeel al-Shalchi, Associated Press


AJDABIYA, Libya - NATO air strikes battered Moammar Gadhafi's tanks Sunday, helping Libyan opposition forces push back government troops that had advanced toward the opposition's eastern stronghold.

...


Hassy said Gadhafi's forces fled the western gates of Ajdabiya and by midafternoon had been pushed back about 40 miles west of the city. However, sporadic shelling could still be heard around western Ajdabiya.


Rebels had been growing critical of NATO, which accidentally hit opposition fighters in deadly air strikes twice this month. They have complained that the alliance was too slow and imprecise, but Hassy, the rebel commander, said it was getting better.


"To tell you the truth, at first NATO was paralyzed, but now they have better movement and are improving," he said.

...


http://www.philly.com/philly/news/nation_world/119582494.html

[pinboy3niner]

43. Tweet: There will be a protest outside the hotel that the AU will be attending in Benghazi

ShababLibya: There will be a protest outside the hotel that the AU will be attending in Benghazi.The people do not want the AU to interfere #Libya #Feb17

[pinboy3niner]

44. African Union peace delegation viewed with great scepticism by #Libya rebels

This tweet is from a correspondent for The Guardian in Libya:


chrismcgreal: African Union peace delegation viewed with great scepticism by #Libya rebels. Doesn't help Jacob Zuma called #Gaddafi "brother leader".
about 7 minutes ago

[pinboy3niner]

45. NATO reaction to AU roadmap: "We welcome all contributions to stopping violence against civilians"

NATO said on Monday it had taken note of reports of an African Union proposal for a ceasefire in Libya and that the military alliance welcomed all efforts to end the violence against civilians.

"We take note of reports of an African Union ceasefire proposal. Since the start of the Libyan crisis, NATO has been in constant touch with the African Union and other regional and international organisations," Oana Lungescu, a NATO spokeswoman, said in a statement.

"We have always made it clear that there could be no purely military solution to this crisis. We welcome all contributions to the broad international effort aimed at stopping the violence against the civilian population in Libya," she said.

10:31am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-11

[pinboy3niner]

46. In Benghazi, AU visit seen as attempt by ppl w/ ties to Gaddafi to shore up appearance of legitimacy

Al Jazeera's Laurence Lee, reporting from the opposition stronghold in Benghazi, said there is "clearly a question over what people think the motivation of the AU visit is."

People are asking whether it is a "genuine attempt at conflict resolution" or whether it is "an attempt by people who have close economic and political ties to Gaddafi to try and shore up the appearance of legitimacy".

Watch Lee's report at AJE...

10:05am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-11


...OR watch on YouTube:

Libya update: AU due to visit Benghazi (4:05):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyQnfLhDdkI&feature=player_embedded

[pinboy3niner]

47. AU delegation's trip to Benghazi: "What we have today could be nothing more than a photo op"

--CNN's Reza Sayah, reporting live from Benghazi after talking to opposition leaders.

Also, The Guardian reports:

Protesters have gathered outside the hotel where the AU delegation who are proposing the peace plan are staying. They are insisting that Gaddafi must stand down.

[pinboy3niner]

48. Libya Rebels Spurn African Cease-Fire Plan Without Qaddafi Exit

Source: Bloomberg Businessweek

Libya Rebels Spurn African Cease-Fire Plan Without Qaddafi Exit


April 11, 2011, 4:26 AM EDT


By Maher Chmaytelli


April 11 (Bloomberg) -- Libya’s rebels said a cease-fire plan proposed by the African Union and agreed to by Muammar Qaddafi won’t be acceptable if it allows the ruler and his sons to retain power.


“We reject any initiative that provides for Qaddafi and his children to stay on,” Abdallah Shamiya, a member of the rebel coalition from the Libyan branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, said in a phone interview in Benghazi. Mustafa Gheriani, media liaison for the provisional government, said: “We have to wait and see what the AU will be presenting.”


The African Union said in an e-mailed statement today that Qaddafi agreed to end hostilities immediately and hold talks “with the view to adopting and implementing the political reforms necessary for the elimination of the causes of the current crisis.” There was no mention of Qaddafi agreeing to step down. An AU delegation headed by South African President Jacob Zuma is due to meet rebel leaders in Benghazi today, after presenting the plan to Qaddafi yesterday.

...


Mediation efforts probably won’t work because “people on the rebel side are totally committed to Qaddafi leaving power, and he won’t,” said Andrew Terrill, a Middle East specialist at the Strategic Studies Institute of the U.S. Army War College. “They fear that any compromise with Qaddafi where he stays in power, he’ll put them in jail or have them executed.”

...


http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-04-11/libya-rebels-spurn-african-cease-fire-plan-without-qaddafi-exit.html

[pinboy3niner]

49. Gaddafi forces are firing grenade rockets into the Libyan city of Misrata

Bombardment is still continuing (according to a rebel spokesman), Al Jazeera is reporting.

[pinboy3niner]

50. Gaddafi agrees to AU peace plan--but continues shelling Misrata

Despite apparently agreeing to the AU peace plan that includes an immediate ceasefire, Gaddafi has not ceased the bombardment of Misrata continues, according to Reuters:

Forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi were on Monday firing Russian-made Grad rockets at targets in the city of Misrata, a rebel spokesman in the city told Reuters.

"There was shelling this morning with Grads," the spokesman, called Ali, said by telephone. Asked whether the bombardment was still going on he answered: "Yes." The line was then cut off.

11.10am:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/11/libya-middle-east-uprising-live

[pinboy3niner]

51. Libya’s ‘Must-Visit’ Economy Snares BP, U.K. Investors in War

Source: Bloomberg News

Libya’s ‘Must-Visit’ Economy Snares BP, U.K. Investors in War


By Simon Clark - Apr 10, 2011 4:01 PM PT


Renaissance Group (RNCG) fund manager Justin Farr-Jones flew to Tripoli last May with a British investment delegation that promised to give “unique access” to Libya’s financial leadership.


The economy was opening up after Prime Ministers Tony Blair and Gordon Brown had both met Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi, whose son Saif completed a doctorate at the London School of Economics. Abdel Basset Al-Megrahi, the only person convicted of the 1988 bombing of Pan Am flight 103, was freed in 2009.


“It was actually a must-visit economy,” said London-based Farr-Jones, whose firm focuses on emerging markets. “I really did feel that Libya was on the brink of reform.”


A year later, all bets are off after fighting erupted in Libya. London-based oil company BP Plc (BP/) evacuated workers. U.K. Trade & Investment, a government export organization that last year said Libya was “potentially the fourth-most attractive overseas market,” closed its office in Tripoli along with the U.K. Embassy. The outcome of the conflict matters to British companies.


“There can be no real stability in Libya until Qaddafi goes,” said Oliver Miles, a former U.K. ambassador to Libya and deputy chairman of the Libyan British Business Council. “The creation of a democratic system in Libya would be the best outcome for the Libyan people and for businesses.”


Blair in Libya


Blair opened Libya to British business with his “deal in the desert” in 2004 with Qaddafi, who promised to abandon a nuclear-arms development effort, to destroy stockpiles of chemical weapons and renounced terrorism. Three years later Blair was back in Libya to announce BP’s return to the country more than three decades after Qaddafi nationalized the oil industry. The country had “huge new commercial opportunities” for British business, he said then.

...


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-10/libya-s-must-visit-economy-snares-bp-u-k-investors-in-war.html

[pinboy3niner]

52. Yemen: President Ali Abdullah Saleh has welcomed a Gulf Arab mediation plan, Reuters reports

Just three days ago he denounced "belligerent intervention" by the Gulf Cooperation Council, dismissing the plan as a "coup", so it will be interesting to see whether there is substance behind his words.

The plan would see him hand power to his vice-president and create a new opposition-led government, a statement from his office said. The opposition rejected the plan earlier today because it is unhappy that it gives Saleh immunity for prosecution.

A statement from Saleh's office said:

The presidency welcomes the efforts of our brothers in the Gulf Cooperation Council to solve the current crisis in Yemen. He (Saleh) has no reservations about transferring power peacefully within the framework of the constitution.

11.35am:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/11/libya-middle-east-uprising-live

[pinboy3niner]

53. Egypt: Blogger Sentenced to 3 Years for Insulting the Military

RamyRaoof: #Egypt: Blogger Sentenced to 3 Years for Insulting the Military http://bit.ly/fBI5A8 #FreedomofExpression #NetFreedom

The Guardian reports:

After attacking protesters in Tahrir Square on Saturday, the military have dealt another blow to hopes that post-Mubarak Egypt would be characterised by freedom of speech and freedom to protest.

The country's military court has jailed blogger Maikel Nabil for three years for accusing the army of deception over its role in the revolution, Ahram Online reports. The blogpost in question was titled "The army and the people were never one hand." Nabil was accused of "insulting the military" and "disturbing public security."

Meanwhile, a few hundred protesters have defied an army demand to quit Tahrir Square, Reuters reports.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/11/libya-middle-east-uprising-live#block-11

[pinboy3niner]

54. Libya Faces Long Wait to Resume Oil Exports -BP Economist

Source: Wall Street Journal


APRIL 11, 2011, 3:51 A.M. ET


Libya Faces Long Wait to Resume Oil Exports -BP Economist


PERTH (Dow Jones)--It may take years for war-torn Libya to resume significant oil exports, placing further upward pressure on already high oil prices, a leading industry economist said Monday.

The cessation of exports from Libya is a "dangerous situation" for the oil market, which is already struggling to keep up with demand growth for the fuel, BP PLC (BP) Group Chief Economist Christof Ruhl said.

"For all intents and purposes Libyan exports--1.3 million barrels per day--are gone," he told reporters on the sidelines of an industry conference.

Other OPEC producers, such as Saudi Arabia, have tried to compensate for the Libyan outage, but Ruhl doesn't believe the "current increases are enough" to cover recent demand growth.

...


While it is difficult to gauge the damage to Libya's infrastructure from the current unrest, historically, it is surprising how long production can take to resume in countries affected by civil unrest, he said.

"It always takes years, not months, to come back."

...


-By Stephen Bell, contributing to Dow Jones Newswires


http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110411-702004.html

[pinboy3niner]

55. Syria: Unconfirmed reports that a student protester has been killed at Damascus University:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/11/libya-middle-east-uprising-live#block-13

[pinboy3niner]

56. African Union representatives were treated to a "frosty reception" on their arrival in Benghazi

The Guardian's Chris McGreal, in Benghazi, reports that the African Union representative were treated to a frosty reception on their arrival in the city:

The delegation of five Africans, three presidents and two foreign ministers were greeted by a sea of demonstrators waving their revolutionary flags - the old Libyan flag - chanting "Gaddafi must go now", "No solution with Gaddafi" and "Stop Gaddafi's war machine".

There were thousands and thousands of them outside the hotel where this meeting is taking place. The reason they're here is they think the AU is siding with Gaddafi, intending to keep Gaddafi in power. They are very unhappy about the call for an end to air strikes.

On the record the opposition council is saying it will listen to the plan but off the record it is saying that any plan that includes Gaddafi staying in power is a non-starter. They (the opposition) were quite disturbed by Jacob Zuma calling Gaddafi "brother leader".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/11/libya-middle-east-uprising-live#block-14

[pinboy3niner]

57. BREAKING, AJ: Libyan authorities have released second Al Jazeera reporter

Libyan authorities have released second Al Jazeera reporter: Ahmed val ould Eddin, a Mauritanian national.

Four Al Jazeera reporters were captured in Libya last month by pro-Gaddafi forces, since then only two have been released.

Lotfi Al Masoudi, a Tunisian national, was freed earlier this month.

1:30pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-11?sort=desc

[pinboy3niner]

58. UK Government 'rows back on defence cuts to fund conflicts in Libya and Afghanistan'

Source: The Telegraph

Government 'rows back on defence cuts to fund conflicts in Libya and Afghanistan'


The RAF and Royal Navy are to receive emergency funds from the Treasury to support operations in Libya and Afghanistan after Whitehall chiefs backtracked on the defence budget.


By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent and Caroline Gammell


6:30AM BST 11 Apr 2011

...


RAF fighters, pilots and transport aircraft, as well as Navy frigates, will all be protected from the cuts detailed in October's defence spending review.


The extra funding is to come from a "back door" route in an effort to prevent other departments from complaining that the MoD is getting special treatment. David Cameron has asked for a breakdown of the costs over the next few days before he approves them.

...


However, a defence source said: "Call it what you like, but defence is getting more funding whether it's through the back door or not. The Coalition has woken up to the reality of the world we live in."


In the biggest about-turn, the RAF's fleet of Tornado aircraft will be kept at full strength, as they are desperately needed to attack Col Muammar Gaddafi's forces in Libya as well as bombing the Taliban. Nato flew more sorties yesterday, targeting Gaddafi forces outside the city of Ajdabiya in eastern Libya.

...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8441419/Government-rows-back-on-defence-cuts-to-fund-conflicts-in-Libya-and-Afghanistan.html

[pinboy3niner]

59. "The bullet hit her in the arm and ricocheted into my son's face. None of us had a weapon..."

Al Jazeera reports:

Hospitals in Misurata, Libya's third city, had documented about 250 deaths over the past month, most of them civilians, as government troops fight for control of the last big rebel stronghold in the west of Libya, the group said.


"We've heard disturbing accounts of shelling and shooting at a clinic and in populated areas, killing civilians where no battle was raging," Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch, said in a statement.


Under international law, warring factions are not allowed to target civilians or carry out assaults that do not discriminate between civilians and combatants, the New York-based organisation said.


The watchdog said it spoke to two doctors and 17 evacuees including 35-year-old Jamal Muhammad Suaib, who lost three family members in an attack by government soldiers.

"My wife was holding my son," he was quoted as saying.

"The bullet hit her in the arm and ricocheted into my son's face. None of us had a weapon. We were just families looking for safe place to stay."

Libyan officials deny attacking civilians.

2:10pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-11?sort=desc

[pinboy3niner]

60. The Guardian's summary of events in Libya and the Middle East so far today:

• African Union representatives are holding discussions over a road map to peace in Libya with the opposition leadership in Benghazi. The AU representatives were greeted by a protest by thousands of people demanding Gaddafi must leave power. Although it is taking part in discussions, the opposition leadership has made clear that it will not agree to any plan that sees Gaddafi retain a role in the Libyan regime.


• Syrian security forces have reportedly used live bullets against anti-government protesters at Damascus University's science faculty. Unconfirmed reports suggest that a student has been shot dead. Meanwhile the army have locked down the port city of Banias, where at least four demonstrators were killed yesterday.


• Military prosecutors are to question Nabeel Rajab, head of the Bahrain Centre for Human Rights, over claims that he published doctored photos of a man who died at a detention centre on Saturday. The photos showed bruises and gashes on the body of Ali Isa Sager but the police published pictures of him without marks on his body. Rajab said the government was lying to cover up its crimes. Three journalists in the country are also to be questioned over allegedly falsifying news.


• Yemen's president Ali Abdullah Saleh has welcomed a mediation plan by the Gulf Cooperation Council that would see him leave office but it has been rejected by the opposition because it would give him immunity from prosecution. The extent of Saleh's acceptance of the plan is unclear. Just three days ago he condemned "belligerent intervention" by the GCC.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/11/libya-middle-east-uprising-live#block-15

[pinboy3niner]

61. Libyan rebels protest against African mediators

Source: AP


Posted: Apr 11, 2011 2:58 AM PDT Updated: Apr 11, 2011 5:58 AM PDT


By BEN HUBBARD
Associated Press


BENGHAZI, Libya (AP) - Libyan opposition supporters protested Monday against a delegation of African leaders who arrived in the rebel stronghold of Benghazi to try to broker a cease-fire with Moammar Gadhafi's regime, saying there can be no peace until the longtime leader gives up power.


More than 1,000 demonstrators waved pre-Gadhafi flags that have come to symbolize the rebel movement and chanted slogans against Gadhafi outside a Benghazi hotel. They said they had little faith in the visiting African Union mediators, most of them allies of Gadhafi who are preaching democracy for Libya but don't practice it at home.

...


"We have completed our mission with the brother leader, and the brother leader's delegation has accepted the road map as presented by us," South African President Jacob Zuma said Sunday. He traveled to Tripoli with the heads of Mali and Mauritania to meet with Gadhafi, whose more than 40-year rule has been threatened by the uprising that began nearly two months ago.


http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=14420031

[pinboy3niner]

62. BREAKING, CNN: Gbagbo arrested, handed over to rebel leaders in Cote d'Ivoire nt

[kenny blankenship]

96. I've been waiting all day for those people who were SOOOO concerned for Cote d'Ivoire

to post an article in GD -just one- about the French arresting Gbagbo, and maybe you know praising the French for their action. They were SOOOO concerned about nothing being done in Ivory Coast on behalf of the legitimately elected govt. and the slaughter of his supporters.

Fucking crickets from them. All day long.

Rhetorically, I guess, I should proclaim my shock and surprise at finding DU full of lying hypocrites who'll say anything for advantage one day and forget it the next. But if I said that I was really shocked, then I would be the lying hypocrite.

[defendandprotect]

124. Maybe it should cause us to question who we are really posting with here at DU?

Who are they really?

How many liberals have already left DU?

[joshcryer]

139. Fact: they weren't really concerned.

At the root of those arguments was derisive garbage, rather than genuine concern. Most people ignored the Ivory Coast, though I was trying to follow it and posted a link to a blog that was following it (but he stopped following it because it was destroying him, as this thread is me, but we'll keep at it until this shit is over I assure you).

[Iterate]

63. Posted in GD:The Price of the Divide on Libya

Permission granted, text in full, with embedded links
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x864687

[pinboy3niner]

65. I know--I gave your first rec. :)

:hi:

[Iterate]

70. Thanks, I wondered how that happened.

The internet ink wasn't even dry yet. I don't think I had my hand off the mouse.

[pinboy3niner]

64. The UN's children agency says at least 20 children have been killed in the bombardment of Misrata

The UN's children agency says at least 20 children - the youngest aged nine months - have been killed in the bombardment of Misrata and has called for an immediate end to the siege of the city.

UNICEF says almost all child deaths have occurred in the past 20 days, with a majority of child victims below 10 years of age. Many others are traumatised by the atrocities they have witnessed and lack food and safe water, it says.

Shahida Azfar, UNICEF Regional Director for the Middle East and North Africa said:

More and more children in this city are being killed, injured and denied their essential needs due to the fighting. Extraordinary efforts must be taken to protect them. The siege must stop.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/11/libya-middle-east-uprising-live#block-16

[pinboy3niner]

66. AP: Pentagon costs in Libya $608 million and counting nt

http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad321/pinboy3niner/LibyaEnough.j

[pinboy3niner]

67. Libyan rebels wary of African Union ceasefire proposal--WaPo

Source: Washington Post

Libyan rebels wary of African Union ceasefire proposal


By Leila Fadel and Simon Denyer, Monday, April 11, 8:25 AM


BENGHAZI, Libya — An African Union delegation arrived in the de facto capital of the Libyan opposition Monday hoping to convince wary rebel leaders to accept a proposed ceasefire.


But the delegation received a lukewarm welcome. Rebel leaders say they do not believe that Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi would adhere to a ceasefire, and they reject any plan that does not include Gaddafi’s immediate resignation and departure from the country.


The rebels’ Transitional National Council--largely made up of doctors, lawyers, intellectuals, defectors and former exiles--is deeply skeptical about the neutrality of the African Union, which they see as packed with Gaddafi allies.


Opposition leaders are also likely to be disappointed because the peace plan fails to wring any concessions from Libya’s leader at the outset, despite the brutal suppression of protests in February in which hundreds of people were shot and thousands were arrested.

...


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/gaddafi-accepts-road-map-for-peace-proposed-by-african-leaders/2011/04/10/AFbrtuJD_story.html

[Iterate]

68. If You Want Peace, Forget Justice

A thoughtful debate from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation Festival of Dangerous Ideas (love that title) in Sydney on 10.02.10. Speakers: Graham Blewitt, Andrea Durbach, Ratih Hardjono, Eric Kaufmann, Simon Longstaff, Agio Pereira, and Stuart Rees -all participants in the struggle to bring both peace and justice.

Summary
South African apartheid might have ended in bloodshed without Nelson Mandela and his ethos of forgiveness. But, did apartheid’s victims get real justice, or was "Reconciliation" valued over "Truth"? If you want peace, should you forget justice? That's the topic at this provocative IQ-Squared debate from the Festival of Dangerous Ideas at the Sydney Opera House.

The discussion ranges across some of the thorniest issues and most intractable conflicts throughout the world –- Ireland, Timor, Cyprus, the Middle East. A high-level panel including Ratih Hardjono, Eric Kaufmann, Agio Pereira and Stuart Rees thrash out what peace and justice can mean in the 21st century ... and which of the two we should strive to achieve.

-----------------

I'm bringing it up here because it's not only good, but because the issue of peace, justice, and reconciliation will have to be dealt with by Libyans in some fashion in the not-too-distant future.

Full program: http://fora.tv/2010/10/02/If_You_Want_Peace_Forget_Justice#fullprogram (1:35:36)

or if you wish, skip down to one presentation, Against: Ratih Hardjono: Peace Without Justice Breeds Cyclical Violence (begins at ~21:50).

[MedleyMisty]

69. Not just Libyans

I think we will all have to deal with it. Goodness knows I've got a lot of rage for Republicans going on right now that I need to deal with.

[Iterate]

72. I think what I liked about it

was that it shows that peace is not some kind of passive state, as merely the absence of war, but it's something that a few very thoughtful people are working quite hard to understand and accomplish. The title of the debate was deliberately provocative, but no one on either side tried to ignore the linkage between peace and justice and cyclical violence operating over decades.

So yes, republicans beware: no justice, no peace.

All-in-all, it made me want to become Australian.

[pinboy3niner]

71. Fierce fighting continues in Libya's city of Misrata

"Heavy and fierce fighting is now taking place at the eastern entrance to the city and in the centre ... on Tripoli Street," a resident named Abdelsalam, told Reuters by telephone.

[pinboy3niner]

73. Gaddafi called supporters at his compound yesterday "my air defense system" nt

[Iterate]

74. FEATURE-Rebels resort to guerrilla tactics in western Libya

TRIPOLI, April 11 (Reuters) - Overwhelmed by the superior firepower of Muammar Gaddafi's troops, opposition fighters in western Libya are resorting increasingly to guerrilla tactics in their campaign to topple the veteran leader.

Unlike eastern Libya, where rebels hold many coastal cities, the west of the country remains firmly under Gaddafi's control.

The proximity to the nerve centre of Gaddafi's powerful military apparatus in the capital Tripoli makes it hard for fragmented dissenters to organise their actions into a movement.

But that may now be changing. Tripoli residents said there have been several attacks on army checkpoints and a police station in the past week, and gunfights can be heard at night.

Continue...
http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73A1P020110411?sp=true

The headline may be a bit premature, but the seeds are there.

[pinboy3niner]

75. AU peace plan: "This would be like asking a rape victim to negotiate with the rapist"

--Fran Townsend, former National Security Advisor, on CNN just now.

[defendandprotect]

121. EXACTLY -- !!! +1000%

[pinboy3niner]

76. The Guardian's summary of today's events in Libya and the Middle East:

• African Union representatives have been holding discussions over a road map to peace in Libya with the opposition leadership in Benghazi. The AU representatives were greeted by a protest by thousands of people demanding Gaddafi must leave power. Although it is taking part in discussions, the opposition leadership has made clear that it will not agree to any plan that sees Gaddafi retain a role in the Libyan regime.


• Syrian security forces have reportedly used live bullets against anti-government protesters at Damascus University's science faculty. Unconfirmed reports suggest that a student has been killed. Meanwhile the army have locked down the port city of Banias, where at least four demonstrators were killed yesterday.


• Egyptian blogger Maikel Nabil has been jailed for three years for accusing the army of deception over its role in the revolution. Another blogger, who has set up a petition to free Nabil, has criticised the sentence "a gross violation of the right of freedom of speech that is guaranteed in the Interim Constitutional Declaration of Egypt".


• Military prosecutors are to question Nabeel Rajab, head of the Bahrain Centre for Human Rights, over claims that he published doctored photos of a man who died at a detention centre on Saturday. The photos showed bruises and gashes on the body of Ali Isa Sager but the police published pictures of him without marks on his body. Rajab said the government was lying to cover up its crimes. Three journalists in the country are also to be questioned over allegedly falsifying news.


• Yemen's president Ali Abdullah Saleh has welcomed a mediation plan by the Gulf Cooperation Council that would see him leave office but it has been rejected by the opposition because it would give him immunity from prosecution. The extent of Saleh's acceptance of the plan is unclear. Just three days ago he condemned "belligerent intervention" by the GCC.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/11/libya-middle-east-uprising-live#block-21

[tabatha]

77. Oksana Balinskaya: My Life as a Nurse for Libyan Dictator Muammar Gaddafi

I got the impression that at least half the population of Libya disliked Papik. The local medical staff was jealous of us because we made three times more than they did—over $3,000 a month. It was obvious that Papik made all the decisions in his country. He is like Stalin; he has all the power and all the luxury, all for himself. When I first saw television pictures of the Egyptian revolution I thought, nobody would ever dare to rise against our Papik. But there was a chain reaction after Tunisia and Egypt. If Papik had passed his throne to his son Saif when he still had a chance, I believe that everything would have been all right. People would not be dying right now.

I got out of Tripoli at the beginning of February, just in time. Two of my friends stayed behind, and now they can’t leave. I had a very personal reason for wanting to get out: I was four months pregnant, and I was beginning to show. I feared that Papik would not approve of my Serbian boyfriend.

Papik will probably never forgive me my betrayal. But I realize I did the right thing to flee Libya. My friends all told me I should think of my future baby and run. Now Papik’s closest partners are also running from him. And he is forcing his children and our two remaining Ukrainian colleagues to stay and die by his side.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-04-11/oksana-balinskaya-on-being-libyas-muammar-gaddafis-nurse/

[pinboy3niner]

78. BREAKING: Libyan opposition REJECTS AU peace plan

"This inititive proposed today is outdated."

"Any initiative which does not include this key popular demand (Gaddafi departure) will not be regarded. Gaddafi and his sons should depart immediately."

[tabatha]

80. Much as I had anticipated.

The AU is bought and paid for by Gaddafi.

[pinboy3niner]

81. The council apparently told AU reps THEIR PEOPLE are fighting as mercs for Gaddafi

Good for them for confronting the delegates with the truth (and their hypocrisy). :thumbsup:

[pinboy3niner]

82. NOBODY is covering this but Al Jazeera!

CNN just led the news with a report that the delegates are meeting with the opposition--no news on the outcome revealed in the press conference just held. They even went live to a CNN correspondent in Libya--who is in TRIPOLI, not Benghazi, and hasn't gotten the word yet.

[defendandprotect]

119. LIBYA HURRA -- !! K/R

[tabatha]

79. Tweets

#NTC: "We have informed the #AU of the names of the African & Arab countries that are providing #Gaddafi with mercenaries". #Libya

AJELive‎ #Libya: #Benghazi-based National Council rejects AU plan. "#Gaddafi and his sons must go" #AlJazeera:
‎
Tanbrit‎ RT @ShababLibya: Heavy attack on Misrata underway once again with Grad Missiles.This usually happens after the regime accept or call for a 'ceasefire' #Libya

ShababLibya‎ TNC: We will not be negotiating with the blood of our martyrs, we will die with them or win and God willing we will win #Libya #Feb17

yassi2011‎ RT @Machahir123 Now African Union #AU envoys and Libyan Opposition addresses media from #Benghazi. #LIBYA #Feb17 #Jan25 #Egypt

rima_misurata‎ Conference thanking #NATO hoping for continued support... reiterated #Gaddafi and his sons and his inner circle must go #Libya #feb17
Twitter - 1 minute ago

LibyaFeb17_com‎ Since Saturday, 300 sorties destroyed 49 tanks, mostly near Misrata and Ajdabiya - #libya #feb17 -
April 11th Updates | Libya February 17th‎ - libyafeb17.com

4Adam‎ #Gaddafi sent today Isawi's Battalion 2 #Rahibat 40km W Zintan to besiege #Jadu, #Arrujban & #Zintan cites to be isolated from #Nalut #Libya

[pinboy3niner]

83. "We will not be negotiating with the blood of our martyrs, we will die with them or win...

...and God willing we will win."

I'm glad ShababLibya got that quote. I was in the middle of transcribing something else and knew I wouldn't remember the exact wording, so I had to skip it. :(

[tabatha]

84. Yep, some ceasefire.

DicPenderyn2011‎ RT @Article139: 360 Toyota Landcruisers on way to #Gaddafi forces via Algeria. Gaddafi's fav war vehicle. Can you help stop them? t.co/IF0YydO #Libya

dovenews‎ #Gaddafi forces hv destroyd the iron factory in #Misrata, this factory employs approx 6000ppl whch thy will be wthout jobs 4 sometime #libya
Twitter - seconds ago

I hope NATO takes out every one of them.

[pinboy3niner]

85. Mustafa Jabril, TNC spokesman, responding to African Union plan:

(Translation/transcription courtesy of Al Jazeera)

This proposal today was determined more than a month ago, the initiative comes in line with the resolutions of the UN Security Council - including the ceasefire, protection of civilians, and granting the freedom of the Libyan people to determine their future.


Col Gaddafi during this time (this past month) did not respect these resolutions and continued to bombard civilians from the air and artillery shelling. He laid siege with militia forces and positioned security personnel in plain clothes and snipers on rooftops - which cannot allow the Libyan people to determine their future.


For more than one month, he has disregarded the UN resolutions.


You are aware how many deaths and injuries have occured this month. You are also aware how many material assets have been destroyed, how many oil fields wrecked. Therefore, this porposal presented today is outdated.


We are also aware the demands of our people from day one is that Gaddafi must step down.


Therefore, any initiative which does not include this key popular demand will not be regarded.


Muammar Gaddafi and his sons should depart immediately (applause).


If he will, to save himself, otherwise the flood of the Libyan people is heading its way to him (more applause)


We cannot negotiate the blood of our martyrs. We will die with them or be rewarded with victory.


I must extend my thanks to the international forces which have saved the lives of civilians.


Without the air strikes that have destroyed Gaddafi's forces, we would have been history. We hail their efforts and ask for more, in accordance with the UN Security Council resolution, which stipulates that, for the protection of civilians, all necessary measures must be taken in this respect.


5:43pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-11?sort=desc

[tabatha]

86. Libya Conflict: Situation Update

APRIL 11: Qaddafi reportedly accepted a ceasefire plan proposed by a delegation from the African Union (AU), which had arrived in Libya over the weekend to broker such an agreement. The AU delegation included South African President Jacob Zuma and the presidents of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Mali, Mauritania and Uganda. Several of these leaders are considered to have close ties with Qaddafi and have been publically critical of NATO’s intervention. Details of the AU plan were vague, but it does not appear to include any plan for Qaddafi and his family to step down from power and leave Libya, while it calls for an immediate ceasefire and a suspension of NATO airstrikes. AU leaders have also urged NATO to halt its air campaign while they traveled to Benghazi to meet with rebel leaders. The rebels, however, have said any deal that keeps Qaddafi and his family in power is unacceptable. Meanwhile, NATO officials have stated that the regime’s forces have continued shelling Misrata, indicating Qaddafi had not halted his military campaign and that NATO operations would continue to protect Libyan civilians. (Washington Post, BBC, New York Times, Guardian)

http://www.understandingwar.org/themenode/libyan-conflict-situation-update

[pinboy3niner]

87. Protest in Malta demands recognition of Libyan opposition council (photo)

A protest in Valetta calls on the Maltese government to recognise the Benghazi-based national council and withdraw recognition of the Gaddafi government.



(Photo: Reuters)


6:44pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-11?sort=desc

[pinboy3niner]

88. Libya unrest: thousands of children caught in the crossfire in Misrata

Source: The Guardian

Libya unrest: thousands of children caught in the crossfire in Misrata


At least 20 children have been killed and many more injured in the besieged city in the past month, says Unicef


Harriet Sherwood in Tripoli
guardian.co.uk, Monday 11 April 2011 17.10 BST


Tens of thousands of children trapped in intense fighting in Misrata are in serious danger amid concern over a humanitarian crisis in the only city in western Libya not under the control of Muammar Gaddafi.


At least 20 children, mostly under the age of 10, have been killed in the besieged city in the past month, according to Unicef, the UN children's agency. Many more have been injured by gunfire or shrapnel from mortars and tank shells.


Thousands of children are caught in the middle of the battle to control the city that has been raging for more than six weeks. Most lack access to sanitation and safe drinking water, Unicef said.


Shelling by Libyan troops continued on Monday, with al-Jazeera quoting a rebel spokesman as saying five people had been killed and about 20 wounded.


"More and more children in this city are being killed, injured and denied their essential needs due to the fighting," said Shahida Azfar of Unicef. "Until the fighting stops we face the intolerable inevitability of children continuing to die and suffer in this war zone."

...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/11/libya-children-misrata

[Iterate]

89. Rwanda announces freeze on Libyan hotel assets

KIGALI, April 11 (Reuters) - The Rwandan government has taken custody of Libyan-owned shares in the Laico Hotel in Kigali, Rwanda's finance minister said on Monday.

Western countries, the United Nations and the European Union have frozen assets of the Libyan government and the family of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi as part of sanctions imposed after Gaddafi launched a crackdown on an uprising against his rule.

"It is true Laico Hotel assets are frozen. But that freezing here means removal of Libyan influence in the management of the hotel and stopping any transfer of resources to the Libyan government or its beneficiaries," Finance Minister John Rwangombwa told Reuters.

"Valuation of assets will be done in the near future. Currently, the former chairperson of the board of SOPROTEL, the company which owns the hotel, is the one running the hotel as we look for a professional manager," he added.

Continue...
http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73A1T320110411

drip, drip, drip

[pinboy3niner]

90. Anti-Gaddafi fighters say attacks on the town of Misurata stepped up over the course of the day

They said it was the first time Gaddafi's troops had used Russian-made Grad rockets - munitions fired in multiple rounds from launchers on the back of trucks - which take their name from the Russian word for "hail".

Mahmoud Amloda, a spokesman for the fighters, told Reuters:

This is a new escalation and a new level. We do not see any sign of a ceasefire. We do not want war. But what choice do we have? We have to defend ourselves.

He (Gaddafi) is destroying everything like a madman and causing havoc.

6:51pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-11?sort=desc

[tabatha]

91. NATO strikes further reduce pro-Gaddafi forces capacity

Naples, 11 April – NATO’s Operation Unified Protector struck several more targets around the cities of Ajdabiya and Misrata yesterday afternoon and early this morning resulting in the destruction of 11 Regime tanks and five military vehicles, in addition to the 25 tanks destroyed and announced yesterday.

“NATO is keeping up the pressure to make the violence stop” said NATO Secretary General, Anders Fogh Rasmussen in Brussels. “Since Saturday, we have destroyed 49 tanks, 9 armoured personnel carriers, 3 anti-aircraft guns and 4 larger ammunition bunkers, the majority of these around Misrata and Ajdabiya” he said.

Gadhaffi forces continue to mass large quantities of tanks and other armoured vehicles in and around the Western city of Misrata. Tanks are being placed in the city next to public buildings as shown in a satellite photo released by NATO, earlier today.

“Despite Gadhaffi attempts to hide behind civilians, we are finding his military hardware in other locations and we are destroying it with increasing success,” said Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard, Commander of Operation Unified Protector.

Early this morning Gadhaffi forces shelled Misrata for more than 30 minutes, this despite the Gadhaffi Government talking of a cease fire.


Imagery showing how pro-Gaddafi forces position themselves in urban centres.


http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-3FC0F50B-30D81538/natolive/news_72268.htm

[pinboy3niner]

93. Thanks, Tabatha

I was dealing with issues with my computer (which I have now dubbed 'HAL').


:hi:

[tabatha]

94. Why not "HELL"?

I check in now and again. Waiting on some emails.

[defendandprotect]

122. Cheers to NATO for that -- !!! Where are we with the feelings of

rebels that Gaddafi's compound perhaps should be bombed??

What a tempting idea -- but would it be the right thing to do --

and even if his supporters moved out -- he may still have hostages there?

Is he even there?

And I imagine a ton of other questions about this? What does anyone else think?

[tabatha]

127. NATO will not do that.

Neither will the rebels.

On one of the bombing sorties, NATO observed some Gaddafi tanks. They bombed one hidden from view, which then caused the Gaddafi people to flee - before they bombed the other tanks. They are trying to minimize casualties on both sides. There was a video showing that.

Btw, I wonder if Gaddafi has agents posting propaganda on US boards? I was very suspicious of the Moussa Koussa defection, especially after he said that he wanted to meet with the TNC. See
http://twitter.com/ShababLibya

[defendandprotect]

132. Thanks, tabatha --

Don't know about US boards, but he was certainly encouraging some of his

miltiary to defect to the protesters to spy for him -- looks like that might

have happened. With Gaddafi, anything's possible!

Looks like many are suspicious of Moussa -- can't believe he wanted to meet with TNC!

[pinboy3niner]

92. Libya's revolutionaries: "They'd rather die on their feet than live on their knees"

Libya's Transitional National Council has rejected the African Union's proposal to negotiate a way out from the deepening crisis.

The Benghazi-based committee has made Gaddafi's removal from power a prerequisite for any talks with Tripoli.

Al Jazeera's Laurence Lee, reporting from Benghazi, says the military strategy of the council is that "they'd rather 'die on their feet than live on their knees'."

Watch Lee's report at AJE (4:25):

8:05pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-11?sort=desc

[David__77]

109. I thought they said "living on their knees" wasn't even an option.

I thought they said that if Gaddafi was not deposed, that he would kill every opposition supporters who could be identified. If so, then "living on knees" would hardly be an option.

[tabatha]

95. Gaddafi belongs in the Hague

‎

chakraluv‎ RT @LibyaAlHurraTV Official #TNC count since start of #Libya conflict: 9000 dead 25000 kidnapped 30000 injured #Gaddafi #Feb17 @LibyanTNC

[pinboy3niner]

97. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 9 PM MONDAY, APRIL 11

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[pinboy3niner]

98. Libyan war crimes suspected--evidence gathered against Gaddafi forces

Source: USA TODAY

Libyan war crimes suspected


By Greg Campbell, Special for USA TODAY


BENGHAZI, Libya — Soldiers loyal to Col. Moammar Gadhafi may be torturing and executing rebel prisoners, say human rights workers and doctors near the front lines.


The bound and bullet-riddled bodies of three Libyan rebels were found Sunday dumped near a rebel checkpoint east of Ajdabiya, where the rebels and Gadhafi forces have been involved in battles for days, according to the morgue where the bodies were taken.

...


Ahmed Mefreh of the Geneva-based non-governmental organization Alkarama for Human Rights viewed and photographed two of the bodies at Hawari General Hospital in Benghazi and said he was convinced the men were shot and possibly tortured while their hands were tied. They were found by the roadside a day after intense fighting for control of Adjabiya on Saturday.

...


"When you put a gun to his head, that's execution," said Mohammed Hussain, the head of intensive care. "When you shoot him here and here and here, that's something else. That's torture. They want him to feel the pain."

...


Another fighter, who had not been identified, had the same marks on his wrists, which were bound behind him when he was found by the side of the road Sunday morning. He was shot under the chin. A third man, who had been claimed by his family and was unavailable for viewing, was shot 22 times from his knees to his head, said Mohammed Ibrahim, a doctor who prepared the body for burial.

...


Rebel soldiers also took prisoners during Saturday's fight in Adjabiya. At least two men were captured and transported to a detention facility for war prisoners in Benghazi. Dibeh Fakhr, spokeswoman for the International Committee of the Red Cross in Benghazi, said the opposition government has allowed researchers to conduct more than 100 visits with approximately 100 pro-Gadhafi prisoners captured by rebel forces to assess their conditions and treatment. Gadhafi's regime has not allowed the ICRC to visit prisoners captured by government forces, she said.

...


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-04-12-libyaexecutions12_ST_N.htm

[pinboy3niner]

99. A comment from Al Jazeera's correspondent Anita McNaught, who currently is reporting from Tripoli:

"No-one has told us officially - Gaddafi hasn't told us - that he is playing for time. But that could be his strategy now."

[David__77]

108. "Playing for time???" What does this mean?

I imagine he's playing for time in the sense that he wants the rest of his life at a minimum. Otherwise, I'm not at all sure what such a statement could mean. If she said "running the clock," that may make more sense to me.

[joshcryer]

143. Well, since it's the third time the same proposal was tabled...

...it's just trying to make political posturing, to act as if he's seriously considering a peace proposal. What happens if Gaddafi pulls out of Misrata? It just becomes a rebel held stronghold, it wouldn't have the ability to attack other towns and likely would not without a supply stream from Benghazi. Strategically he has no reason to keep pounding Misrata, if anything he's fomenting more anti-Gaddafi sentiment.

[pinboy3niner]

100. Shelling in Misrata continues. A resident named Ghassan tells Reuters by phone:

Pro-Gaddafi forces are now shelling Al Bira, a rebel-held area near Tripoli Street in the city centre, using heavy artillery.

[pinboy3niner]

101. Libya: Inside Moammar Gadhafi's Fortified Inner Sanctum

Source: ABC News

Libya: Inside Moammar Gadhafi's Fortified Inner Sanctum


Video Screens Featuring Gadhafi, Human Shields, Then a Huge Steel Wall and Massive Steel Gate


By JEFFREY KOFMAN
TRIPOLI, Libya April 11, 2011


...


Thirty minutes later a Toyota pickup truck pulled up in front of the hotel. With driver and minder in front there was room for four others, but our group was six. Several of us volunteered to sit in the back, but the minder would have none of it. We must obey traffic laws. That seemed more than a little ironic in country that routinely practices torture on its citizens.

...


Nothing prepared me for what I saw next. Here we were in the "maximum security" compound of one of the most wanted men on earth, and it was as if we were entering the grounds of a rock concert. In a vast open space, lit with stadium lights, Arabic music and patriotic Libyan songs blared on the loud speaker as hundreds of young men ambled about. When they saw the cluster of foreign journalists they erupted in chants. Their favorite: "Muammar, Allah, Libya, Bas" Translation: Gadhafi, God and Libya, That's Enough. And then "Down, Down Sarkozy!" a reference to French President Nicolas Sarkozy who spearheaded the campaign to enlist NATO to bomb Gadhafi's military forces.


They're not just here to express their loyalty. They're here as human shields enthusiastically protecting their Leader from NATO bombs.

...


On a huge video wall behind the chanting crowd, images of Gadhafi played in an endless loop. In his 41 years as this country's dictator, Gadhafi's single biggest accomplishment has been the creation a personality cult around his own image. As one passionate Gadhafi supporter said to me a few days ago: "There cannot be a Libya without Gadhafi, he is our oxygen." Massive billboards of Gadhafi are on every street: Gadhafi the Soldier, Gadhafi the Father Figure, Gadhafi in Cool Sunglasses. They look almost comical, like some cheap caricature that you'd find in Madame Tussaud's Wax Museum. But you quickly learn that Gadhafi's odd choice of clothes and eccentric manner are a convenient cover for a man capable of staggeringly ruthless acts.

...


http://abcnews.go.com/International/inside-moammar-gadhafis-sanctum/story?id=13347258&page=4

[TheCanadianLiberal]

102. I still think Gaddafi will stay in power

The rebels would have lost long ago if not for other countries, other countries with no business being in Lybia.

I think Gaddafi will stay in power for quite some time.

[tabatha]

105. So you think that it was OK for Gaddafi to rob

the country blind; hang, torture and kill anyone who disagrees him, with the result that there is no freedom in the country. The oil in that country belongs to all Libyans not just Gaddafi and his godawful offspring. One man has usurped the wealth of an entire country, and that is OK - and he has used it to buy off the rest of Africa.

Then I guess Apartheid South Africa was OK as well, as was Hitler with this slaughter and genocide. And you may as well go stomp on the Magna Carta.

If no other countries had any business in protecting Libya from slaughter, then Gaddafi has no business taking the whole of Libya for himself.

AFreeLibya2011: 13:49 Human Rights Watch says that Gaddafi’s forces are violating international law by attacking civilians indiscriminately in Misrata. Hospitals in Libya’s third city had documented about 250 deaths.

[David__77]

107. It's entirely possible.

There are several possibilities. One is that the insurgency is largely defeated somehow at some point. Another is that dual power persists for a very long time.

[defendandprotect]

123. The protesters would have won a month ago if not for Gaddafi's being heavily weaponized...

That's all that has kept Gaddafi in power over 41 years --

that and TORTURE and his general violence against the population ensuring

that no one can even speak out!

A good situation for Americans to think about, study and be prepared for, perhaps!!

[MedleyMisty]

144. I've thought that myself

The more I learn about Gaddafi - he ran Libya like a Republican wet dream. Our wannabe dictators have more in common with him than they do Ben Ali or Mubarak - ideologically insane as well as corrupt.

[defendandprotect]

145. It's classic fascism --

Hitler, Stalin --

Same way the right in America has risen -- political violence -- assassinations.

We've had at least 50 years of it -- and rather than waiting they now kill liberal

leadership before it even has a chance to rise.

Needless to say, stolen elections and lies --

Meanwhile, capitalism is suicidal --

[pinboy3niner]

103. Al Jazeera reports on an interview Saif Gaddafi gave over the weekend:

He laughed at the thought of being forced to leave the country: "They're talking about us being exiled to the Carribbean!"

Everything has changed. The people have changed. We're talking about a new Libya ...The future Libya will be completely different from the Libya that you have known up until now, with the guide (his father, longterm leader Muammar Gaddafi), with Saif (himself), with the people, with the East, with the West, with the South - we are all one united family.

He also alleged Qatar had masterminded a scheme to spark rebellion in order to get its hands on Libyan oil exports - dragging France and Britain in its wake and tricking the United Nations into supporting action against the regime.

He warned France that it would not make "a single euro" out of the war and that it had lost important contracts that Libya would have signed to buy Airbus airliners and Rafale attack jets. But he didn't rule out further negotiations, saying:

We are ready for talks even with the devil, but even the devil must know that there are red lines we will not cross.

Firstly, Gaddafi is a red line. Several thousand young people have died to defend the colonel.

Secondly, for 70 years since our independence in 1952, we have been a united people, but now because of Qatar and the West we hear talk of eastern and western Libya.

The third red line is security in Libya. We can't allow anyone to compromise security in Libya by supporting rebel armed groups. Young Libyans are ready to defend the Libyan regime.

He also repeated the assertion that armed rebels were inspired and led by Al Qaeda members.

9:25pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-11?sort=desc

[pinboy3niner]

104. Even a revolution must pause for camels...

Al Jazeera picked this up from Reuters:

Anti-Gaddafi fighters returning to the front line outside Ajdabiya today pause to let a caravan of camels pass.



Photo: Reuters

[pinboy3niner]

106. "You have to help us, he's killing everybody!"

Source: AP

Leaders of Libya's rebellion once sought change inside Gadhafi regime through son


By Ben Hubbard, The Associated Press – 1 hour ago


BENGHAZI, Libya — Not long ago, Moammar Gadhafi's son Seif al-Islam was seen as the sole hope for change in Libya. He talked of greater democracy, human rights and economic development. He attracted technocrats, many Western-educated, to take up positions in the regime, hopeful he meant what he said.


Now those technocrats, who gave up on Seif al-Islam's talk of reform, hold many of the top posts in the rebellion seeking to push the Gadhafi family from power.


They form the main bloc in the top rebel ranks — former ministers of justice and economy, and former heads of government-linked human rights, planning and business bodies. Most quit their posts in the late 2000s after realizing the scant chance of reforming from the inside the autocratic rule in place for 42 years.

...


Even as justice minister, Abdul-Jalil was critical of the tight control of security forces in the regime, said Human Rights Watch researcher Heba Morayef, who met Abdul-Jalil during the group's first visit to Libya in 2009. She said he told her team about hundreds of men who remained in prison despite a court ruling ordering their release and complained that his hands were tied unless the interior minister rescinded the immunity of the officials holding the men.


"He responded honestly to every question we had," Morayef said. During a second visit eight months later, the team asked why there had been no progress on the case. "This is corruption," she said he replied.

...


When the uprising broke out and Jibril had fled to Egypt, he called Morayef in a panic, she said, telling her, "You have to help us, he's killing everybody!"

...


http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jVw2ODt37xmqeNrGq8tlCqDyyCsA?docId=6534534

[pinboy3niner]

110. Artillery fire in Misrata today killed six people--including a three-year-old girl

That's what a doctor there reported to AP.

[defendandprotect]

142. K/R

[pinboy3niner]

111. White House Calls for Release of Journalists Detained in Libya

Source: The Atlantic

White House Calls for Release of Journalists Detained in Libya


By Max Fisher
Apr 11 2011, 4:35 PM ET


The White House is demanding the release of the four journalists who were detained on Tuesday by Libyan government troops, Press Secretary Jay Carney said at today's press briefing. The journalists, two of whom are American, are thought to be held in a government detention center in Tripoli.


"We call ... for the release of any journalists detained, any human rights activists, anyone detained unlawfully or inappropriately, and in this case, specifically with those journalists in mind, we call on and demand their release," Carney said.


U.S. citizens Clare Morgana Gillis, a freelancer who writes for The Atlantic and USA Today, and James Foley of Global Post were detained on Tuesday along with Spanish photographer Manuel (Manu) Varela de Seijas Brabo and South African photographer Anton Lazarus Hammerl. Gillis, Foley, and Brabo were last seen on Thursday at a government detention facility in Tripoli, where they were reportedly being treated well by government captors. The Atlantic has been unable to confirm whether Hammerl was also present at the detention center.


Carney said that the U.S. has made the journalists' release a priority. "We're very aware of this issue, and I know the State Department is working very hard in order to do what it can to facilitate those journalists' release," he said. "We take this very, very seriously, as we did when other journalists were detained."


Acting State Department spokesman Mark Toner said at a press briefing today that the U.S., which has no diplomatic presence in Libya, was working through "contacts on the ground" to secure the journalists' release. "We do work through I believe the Turks, for example." He added, "You know, it is difficult, frankly. We are limited in what we can do in Libya right now, except to make public appeals, like I can do right now. But beyond that, we can work through our protecting power there and try to get better information about their whereabouts. But we are limited, unfortunately."

...


http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/04/white-house-calls-for-release-of-journalists-detained-in-libya/237138/

[tabatha]

112. Human Rights Watch Statement on the Apprehension of Laurent Gbagbo

(New York) - Forces loyal to Alassane Ouattara apprehended Laurent Gbagbo in Abidjan on April 11, 2011. "Gbagbo has been credibly implicated in crimes against humanity and other atrocities for which he should be held to account," said Daniel Bekele, Africa director at Human Rights Watch. He should not be granted a golden exile in a country that would shield him from national or international prosecution.

Ouattara's forces have an obligation to treat him and others in their custody humanely in accordance with international law. After months of fighting in which civilians suffered terribly, Ouattara takes control of a deeply divided country. To end over a decade of abuse and impunity, Ouattara's new government needs to ensure that all those responsible for the crimes that have characterized this painful period of Cote d'Ivoire's history face fair justice, regardless of their rank or political allegiance.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/04/11/human-rights-watch-statement-apprehension-laurent-gbagbo

[pinboy3niner]

113. AU delegates peeved with Turkey--for 'stealing' peace ideas they wanted credit for--Al Jazeera

AJ reports:

Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught says members of the AU delegation told her last night they took "a dim view" of the Turkish roadmap for peace in Libya:

They told me they thought the Turks had stolen their ideas. They said they'd come up with these proposals and wanted the credit.

11:17pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-11?sort=desc

[tabatha]

116. Do they want peace or do they want an ego boost?

Sounds like the latter. Amateurs at best; fools at worst.

Zuma just lost all credibility; he did not even meet with the TNC.

[tabatha]

114. Human Rights Watch: Libya: Government Attacks in Misrata Kill Civilians

(Benghazi) - Attacks by Libyan government forces in the western city of Misrata have endangered civilians and targeted a medical clinic in violation of international law, Human Rights Watch said today. The assessment is based on interviews with two doctors still in Misrata and 17 wounded civilians recently evacuated from the city, which is largely cut off from the outside world by Libyan government forces.

Human Rights Watch called on the Libyan government to allow regular access of humanitarian aid to the city by sea and land, and to permit safe passage for all civilians who wish to leave.

"The Libyan government's near siege of Misrata has not prevented reports of serious abuses getting out," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. "We've heard disturbing accounts of shelling and shooting at a clinic and in populated areas, killing civilians where no battle was raging."

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/04/10/libya-government-attacks-misrata-kill-civilians

[Distant Observer]

115. Do ANY of the rebels really want to stop the KILLING? THEY REJECT EVERY MEDIATION - UN OR AU

They seem to believe it is spiritual to keep going out and killing people who oppose them.

They are just the other side of a Dictatorship coin -- except they seem more bloodthirsty than
Gaddafi.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x865854

[defendandprotect]

125. Gee -- and I thought it was Kaddafi doing the killing, raping, torturing -- !!

Negotiating with kaddafi would be like negotiating with one's rapist --

as someone else has put it!!

[catchnrelease]

117. k&r

[tabatha]

118. Because Gaddafi has stated now for the fourth time

that he accepts a ceasefire yet continues to bomb innocent people, how can anyone in their right mind negotiate with him - there is no solution unless Gaddafi is gone.

[Distant Observer]

120. The REBELS are the ones that REJECT ceasefires. Gaddafi has no control, just your boogeyman

and the excuse the Western powers are using to impose their will.

For decades these "oppositiong" have mocked Gaddafi's pan-African approach is a very racist way.

Now they treat the African Union peace initiative in a very insulting way.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x865854

I guess you want all the people who don't support the rebels to just allow themselves to be killed.

[defendandprotect]

126. Kaddafi is the murdering monster here -- not the protesters --

Kaddafi is also the torturer and the rapist --

Who supports Kaddafi except those he has terrorized into doing so?

If anyone supported Kaddafi he wouldn't have had to hire 50,000 mercenaries to

fight for him!!

[Iterate]

129. Gadddafi and members of his family will likely face multiple charges

of crimes against humanity and various war crimes. The International Criminal Court will brook no claim that he has no control, and will, in fact, probably assert that he gave the order to fire on unarmed civilians himself, organizing the response before the demonstrations started.

It will happen very soon. These will be substantial and detailed charges. You should prepare yourself for that.

The opposition, as much as they might scare you, face no such charges and have no such evidence against them.

[tabatha]

130. Should be in the next header.

[David__77]

136. Libya is not a signatory to the ICC.

Indeed, it has that in common with the United States and China. Yes, of course, the security council action has given ICC option of formulating charges, if it chooses.

I find it interesting that the UN resolution 1970 specifically limits the purview to events since 2/15/11. So, does this mean that the scope of legal activity, if any, excludes the decades prior to that? So it seems per the resolution. It also states that the UN will pay nothing for any proceedings or investigations.

[pinboy3niner]

128. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 12:35 AM TUESDAY, APRIL 12

Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours

[pinboy3niner]

131. Killing of captives points to war crimes by Libyan government forces--Amnesty International

In the course of its six-week investigation in eastern Libya, Amnesty International has found strong evidence that Colonel al-Gaddafi’s forces have deliberately killed unarmed protesters, directly attacked civilian residents fleeing the fighting, committed enforced disappearances and tortured detainees.




http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/killing-captives-points-war-crimes-libyan-government-forces-2011-04-11

[tabatha]

133. Tweets

yelenapants‎ RT @feb17voices: LPC #MIsrata A second @feb17voices contact reports the use of cluster munitions / submunition shells on civilian areas in #Misrata #Libya

mijami2‎ RT @dovenews: @ChangeInLibya RT! Mass rally on 14 April 11am -1pm front of the ICC in Netherlands. Maanweg,174. 2516AB, The Hague. Plz try 2 attnd

Soraya__Rocha‎ RT @freedomgroupTV: Reports Gaddafi forces continue bombarding Al-Beara, #Misrata w mortar canon, 140 of new kind of shells, & GRAD rockets #Libya #Feb17

globalizationow‎ RT @Nadesque: Egyptian survivors:"The terror in Misrata and #Libya cannot be described, anything u can think of is happening there" #Libya

feb17voices‎ LPC #Misrata: casualties for the day include 3 yo boy, apparently killed by a cluster munition #Libya

AUDIOBOO REPORT
http://audioboo.fm/boos/327748-detailed-lpc-update-from-misrata-fighting-morale

[pinboy3niner]

134. British Foreign Secretary to Gaddafi: Stop killing your people and we’ll stop bombing

Source: The Sun (UK)

Hague: Stop killing your people and we’ll stop bombing


By GRAEME WILSON, Deputy Political Editor


Published: Today


BRITAIN will carry on bombing Libya until Colonel Gaddafi stops slaughtering his own people, William Hague warned yesterday.

The Foreign Secretary insisted Nato will continue to defend the country's civilians.

He spoke out after African leaders called for an immediate ceasefire. Mr Hague said in London: "A ceasefire will only work if it truly provides for the protection of civilians. Anything short of this would be a betrayal of the people and play into the hands of the regime."

...


And rebels in Misrata said Gaddafi's forces had STEPPED UP their attacks - firing Russian-made rockets into the city and fighting hand-to-hand battles.


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3522172/William-Hagues-message-to-Gaddafi.html

[tabatha]

135. K & R

[David__77]

137. Theoretical question.

What is the proper, humane military strategy and tactics for pacifying an urban-based insurgency. I've read about a lot of urban-based insurgencies, with varying levels of intensity, from Uruguay to South Africa to Peru, etc. I have also read of the state response. Invariably, it involved massive human rights abuses, suspension of habeas corpus, forces hamletization, mass arrests, and so on. One could argue that a proper, democratic state would never deal with such a thing, but I do not believe it. Peru was a democratic state and dealt with large-scale Shining Path insurgency in Lima in 1988-1992, controlling a number of areas the authorities could not enter. They are still digging up mass graves from the military killings.

[joshcryer]

140. Leaving certainly isn't.

[defendandprotect]

141. Britain quite makes the situation clear -- "Gaddifi is killing his own people" --

Too bad so few here at DU get that message -- however --

the lack of curiosity on the part of so many in DU about Egyptian and Libyan

revolutions kinda made clear sometime back that we were going to have a lot of

DU'ers insufficiently informed -- and in the case of Libya. that's become sadly

true.

[joshcryer]

138. Day 54 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x870172