Wikileaks: This Is Just The Beginning

[kster]

The Virtual Cirle...

“An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come.” Victor Hugo

There is much agitation about Wikileaks on the chattering channels in the US and elsewhere. The politicians are up in arms, many commentators are aghast and the legal eagles are pontificating. The press is having a field day, at least as regards the stories it can publish from leaked material. But all of them seem to be missing the import of what is happening.

History is on the march.

There’s a strong analogy in this with the Diet of Worms and the doomed attempt by Pope Leo X to silence Martin Luther.

Let’s eliminate some of the noise that is currently clogging the air.
http://www.thevirtualcircle.com/2010/12/wikileaks-this-is-just-the-beginning/


The Julian Assange extradition to Sweden is almost irrelevant. It is generally perceived as an attempt to harass Assange and all it has done is provide him with a dramatic stage upon which to perform. The only relevant element in this is the fact that it has become global news.
The extradition of Julian Assange to the US will possibly make his life uncomfortable, but it will provide him with an even more powerful public stage. If it doesn’t happen the US government will be perceived as weak. If it happens it is unlikely to result in his conviction. If there’s no conviction it will be a victory for Assange and if he’s convicted, it will be an even greater victory for what he represents. For the US government, in terms of perception; it’s lose-lose-lose.
Julian Assange’s only importance is that of figurehead. If he’s pulled down from that position, by any event at all, whether it’s accidental, a conspiracy or the result of a legitimate recourse to law, it will not stop what has now started any more than finding Luther guilty at The Diet of Worms stopped the genesis of the Protestant movement.
The Battle That Was Lost

There was a brief attempt by the US government and its allies to try to close Wikileaks down. If we think of this as an information war, then the first battle in the war ended in a terrible defeat for the US. Here’s how it went:



http://www.thevirtualcircle.com/2010/12/wikileaks-this-is-just-the-beginning/

[Kalun D]

1. We've Been Waiting

a couple of years now for the beginning to begin

where's the beef? Holed up in Langley or something?

""all it has done is provide him with a dramatic stage upon which to perform""

yes, he's been all over the corporate media stage. Usually if you are the real deal you get ZERO coverage from the corporate media

I think I smell a rat.

[sabrina 1]

2. Wrong. He is using the media now that he used to avoid because

his life was threatened, and the lives of his family members. The best way for him to stay safe is to remain in the public eye. He is no fool.

Until morons like Huckabee and Palin and the usual deranged lunatics on rightwing talk shows began calling for his assassination, it was nearly impossible to get an interview with Assange.

You seem to think that the media is calling the shots, that it is they who decide whether or not he gets coverage.

For years he refused interviews with all but a few selected people. It isn't that the media didn't want to cover him, HE didn't want to be covered.

But when the world's most powerful super-power's elected officials begin calling for your and your family's murder, then the best place to hide is in the public eye.

I think you need to do some homework on this story. You don't seem to know much about it and as a result keep repeating the silly notion that because someone is getting media coverage, that means they are not 'the real deal'. That is pure nonsense to anyone who has followed the Wikileaks story for any length of time.

[Tunkamerica]

5. probably just your upper lip.

i'm interested in people who have one focus and it's negative. You have no more information than any of us and yet you attack and attack. Why? Are you smarter, more experienced? Do you have a gut feeling? I mean, at best you have a 50/50 chance of being right. What's the point of harping?

[ooglymoogly]

80. wrong place meant for OP

[ooglymoogly]

79. My guess you do indeed smell a rat. Try a deodorant stick.

[sabrina 1]

3. That is a very thoughtful article.

I think the points made are excellent. Many people do seem to be missing the point of what is happening with Wikileaks and the U.S. Government's attempt to shut them down.

Thanks for posting it ~

[Dystopian]

4. KandR

peace~

[Catherina]

6. Rec'd. Thank you n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

7. K & R n/t

[Jeffersons Ghost]

8. K&R great point N/T

[Kaleko]

9. I don't agree with the statement that Assange's only importance is that of a figurehead.

He is a tremendous inspiration for millions to act with the courage of your own convictions even if it means persecution and death threats by the international crime syndicate that is our corpogovernment.

This young man has put countless so-called journalists to shame and made them look as cowardly and fake as they actually are. For that reason alone he deserves a million thanks.

[tavalon]

14. I think it's meant to explain that without Assange, Wikileaks will continue

His dramatics are helpful, but not really necessary to the underlying process. That said, he is quite the inspiration. We haven't seen such courage in journalism in a hell of a long time.

[Kaleko]

52. Sure, I get that.

I wouldn't characterize Assange's style as using "dramatics", however. The man has been threatened by the world's most vindictive and hypocritical super power for creating an effective platform to disseminate the files of important whistleblowers worldwide. Considering his situation, and the collusion of Sweden with the USA's demands for his rendition, Assange strikes me as a marvel of cool-headed reasonableness. Watch the way he delivers his messages: soft-spoken, articulate, quite clearly a system's thinker with a profound understanding of the bigger picture.

The fact that other wannabe journalists and opinion-spewers on DU or elsewhere can't begin to match even the least of Assange's accomplishments so far (ask the people of Iceland about what he and his team have achieved for their benefit) doesn't make the smallest dent in his impressive resume.

[seabeyond]

17. this is the reason i dont like him. i think he has failed as a journalist.

easy to dump a bunch of shit with no responsibility or integrity. a journalist has a greater responsibility what he pits out. assange fails.

[Kaleko]

53. He didn't "dump a bunch of shit with no responsibility or integrity", as you said.

Inform yourself, that's what the internet is for, ideally.

[seabeyond]

56. i am informed. and yes he did.

i am just not a hypocrite to ignore reality of the man because it is what i want. i prefer to be honest what he did/does and who he is. hero worship never worked for me

[Kaleko]

57. No, Assange did not publish the files without having them vetted and redacted

by the NYT, Guardian, Der Spiegel, Le Monde, etc. Assange has explained at length that the small team at WikiLeaks was unable to handle the massive amount of info released to them by various whistleblowers, so they did the responsible thing and passed it on to whatever semi-trustworthy news outlets still exist in this world.

You need to stop repeating false allegations and authoritarian talking points or you'll confuse yourself even more than you already seem to be.

[seabeyond]

58. they leak gossip.

he doesn't get the glory and hero worship to then slough off responsibility leaking gossip in a childishly gleeful fashion. that has nothing to do with painting me as a rw and all to do with the facts. he wants the job of leaking really really important shit.... then do the job well. or fail. he failed.

[Kaleko]

63. Okay, this conversation has entered Twilight Zone territory.

:click: You're on your own.

[seabeyond]

68. entering twilight zone? when we got the diplomat bullshit and du made him a hero

we already entered the twilight zone. youa re way late to the party just recognizing it

[frylock]

73. "the diplomat bullshit" revealed that obama's admin pressured spain to drop any investigation..

of cheneyco torture. real trivial shit there, right?

[sirthomas66]

59. Much better if we wait for some "journalist" to follow current

reporting standards and half of us are dead or in jail mumbling" Why didn't someone do something?" I salute Assange for what he did and I hope he takes down a lot of culprits along with his naysayers.

[seabeyond]

65. or.... he could have done the job with integrity and been the hero instead of turning it into a

game.

guess some sees it as an all or nothing kinda thing

i still prefer integrity regardless of who is doing what.

[sirthomas66]

70. Done the job with integrity? When you're fighting fire, you fight it

however you can. Had he done the job any other way, he would have been hit. His actions may well result in a lot of bad guys going down.

[seabeyond]

77. i believe the repugs make the same bullshit excuses when they are fightin their fight.

meh

[sirthomas66]

83. They won-- Did you somehow think passivity gets the prize in

politics? This is not 1956.

[seabeyond]

88. ah, so we respect the repug that breaks law... oh say, toture because

if they followed the rules, .... well shit, we would all die.

i love how we are so fuckin willing to sell out to integrity and character to reach our means then whine bitch and moan in a society that lacks. well fuck, the ultimate in hypocrisy. whine about the damn stuff coming out of the leaks as lack of integrity using exactly that means to gain that info.

twilight zone is right.

[sirthomas66]

114. That's right. It is exactly the same thing as having to accept

instantly our existence as coming from somewhere that we will never know because there is always that next question "Okay. Then where did that come from?" One has to accept one thing and go forward. In this case we have to accept the questionable means of discovery to ever get anywhere. The entire system is crooked. There are no FDR's here. We have to get down in the dirt or we will be under the dirt. Assange did the only thing possible in our current circumstances to move forward. We simply disagree.

[seabeyond]

115. then dont make him a hero, a god, full of integrity

call it what he is....

he feels like, when i look in the eyes i see, when i listen to him.... dick cheney.

i am not going to glorify the man.

that is all.

[sirthomas66]

116. Do you know what the phrase Black Humor means? Assange is

a Black Hero. With your last post, I now understand where you are coming from. And I don't think you are wrong.

[seabeyond]

117. i think

you are the first person out of all these numerous threads and posts holding assange up on a pedestal to actually give any credit to what i post.

thank you for that.

i have so many conflicting/contradictive thoughts and opinions on wiki and this man, i have not even come close to expressing my thoughts on this. it is none of it black and white.

i appreciate your post. i can let it go now, lol.

[sirthomas66]

119. Adios. See you in the uprising.

[WinkyDink]

75. Oh, this assuredly is not being played as a game. Unless you think having one's life threatened

part of a "game."

AMERICAN POLITICIANS HAVE CALLED FOR HIS MURDER.

[JDPriestly]

60. How do you know he just dumped stuff?

Have you compared the original material with what he has published? Or are you just taking someone else's word for it?

And what difference does it really make?

Half the folks on your TV are just dumping government propaganda on you with no critical analysis. That's the way journalism is done today. We would not be in Iraq but for the dumping of government propaganda buy our "journalists." Straight from Scooter Libby's mouth to Judith Miller to the NY Times. Now that is what I call dumping.

[seabeyond]

66. am i calling those people heros? nt

[JDPriestly]

71. I wouldn't call any of them heroes, neither Assange nor the other journalists.

I just note that all of them are enjoying freedom of the press and that the Wikileaks phenomenon, in other words, publishing information the government labels secret but that is actually not all that secret, is probably going to happen more frequently in the future.

It's just part of the break-down of all kinds of international barriers. There is nothing new about ferreting out secrets in order to expose the behind-the-scenes communications and activities of the ruling class. There is nothing new about publishing those secrets. Pulitzer prizes have been won for that kind of journalism for a long time.

What is different here is the use of the internet to acquire much more information and to disseminate it much more widely.

Long ago, somebody leaked secrets about what was going on in the Tammeny Hall scandal.

Publishing other people's secrets is as old as journalism itself.

[WinkyDink]

74. He's not auditioning for saint-hood, which seems to be your standard.

[seabeyond]

89. are we calling him a journalist? claiming he is a hero as a journalist?

dont journalists have standards in their trade? oh wait..... this man need not have any standards as he outs other people for lacking our standards so we can bitch at them

[Pavulon]

24. He got a million five hundred thouand of them.. His source

has gotten nothing and will die in prison.

[boppers]

104. Manning got what he wanted, and expected.

Manning, FWIW, isn't the only source wikileaks has had, or will have...

But the episode will ensure tighter OpSec in the future.

[malaise]

10. MUST READ - very thoughtful article

Rec

[HereSince1628]

11. Assange will be jailed without trial if the US gets hold of him.

quaint things such as habeus corpus, and fair & speedy trial mean nothing here.

[jwirr]

76. Hell those two laws hardly exist for the average man anymore. We

are not that country anymore. Assange has created a way to inform ourselves. If we suspect something that is published as being incorrect we can always research it like we would other journalists.

[xchrom]

12. recommend

[BonnieJW]

13. Unlikely to result in a conviction????

The author is assuming there will be a trial. Think Bradley Manning. Do you really think our government will give Mr. Assange due process? Do you think he will even be charged? Should he be extradited to the US, he will be wisked away to God-knows-where and we will never hear from him again.

[tavalon]

15. We The People are blessedly waking up to what's happening with Bradley Manning

Do you think the U.S. really wants to everlasting martyrs on its record?

[glinda]

97. Exactly. No trial and just imprisoned pending whatever.

[Pavulon]

106. No its called Florence ADX, and you dont get telephone access (nt)

[stray cat]

16. Meaning the autobiography of julian assange?

[lunatica]

18. The US is in a no win situation. They can't jail Assange into obscurity because

He isn't a US Citizen. Australia would be forced to demand that Assange be either put on trial or set free. Assange has become much bigger than just one man out there at the mercy of governments. He holds the power of truth and transparency and the information that wikileaks leaks will never be stuffed back into being a secret again.

[truth2power]

19. I'm not optimistic that your scenario would occur...

I wish it were true, but...

Obama doesn't seem to mind approving the assassination of individuals, US citizens or not, without benefit of due process. I do believe rendition and torture is still occurring under the present administration. Pres. Obama said, "We don't torture." Nothing about sending individuals to some other country to be tortured. More baffle-gab.

"Australia would be forced to demand..." Yeah, right! As if the Australian govt. isn't also a wholly owned subsidiary of the US rogue state.

The rule of law doesn't operate in the US anymore. Quite ironic, given that our president is a constitutional scholar. Future generations will probably find that an interesting footnote to history.

[lunatica]

20. You make a very good point

But I think Assange has more than one ace up his sleeve. The fact that he isn't in the US already or that some drone hasn't killed him says something. He's quoted on a daily basis and has already bagged a book deal with two publishing houses, and all while sitting in one of the US's biggest allies' jails. Besides, killing Assange or locking him up won't stop wikileaks.

edited for grammar

[Pavulon]

23. Wikileaks relies on mannings not assanges

mannings like ames and pollard and others hannsen comes to mind, are the ones stealing classified information. They are not every day events, most normal people do not want to die in prison or get put to sleep. In the US they are locked in prison until they die, in other countries they are executed.

Without someone willing to kill themselves to steal data the intelligence apparatus assange is running is worthless.

Assange made his million.5 so he is all set.

[lunatica]

26. Wikileaks hasn't published all the information they have

And now other countries are having their local wikileaks versions crop up.

[Pavulon]

28. Again, all that information requires cadivers

people who are willing to go through the grinder to steal information. This pertains to military secrets, not corporate information which is not protected by US laws in the same manner as classified data.

[sendero]

39. So what?

Without someone to publicize it stealing it is useless.

And 1.5 million is about 6 months legal fees.


Try all you want to make this about money but TPTB made it about money when they started trying to make it all a legal issue. Top lawyers have rendered their verdict, wikileaks has broken no laws.

You have Alberto Gonzolez wannabees claiming otherwise.

Assange knows it will take big buck to defend himself, I hope he gets all he needs.

[Pavulon]

40. Conspiracy will be the charge. If the evidence supports it

there is no defense. It is easy, if the evidence (manning, recorded conversations, etc) support the charge the opinions of his disciples do not matter. Lawyers do not render verdicts in the US.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JDPriestly]

62. Recorded c onversations?

With whom?

I haven't heard of any recorded conversations between Assange and Manning or anyone at Wikileaks. The recorded conversations are between Manning and someone not associated with Wikileaks as I understand it.

Do you have a link to a source on the recorded conversations?

[JDPriestly]

61. Assange's book contract is small compared to George W. Bush's.

Assange published material given to him by someone, someone he claims he did not know.

Bush caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people and ordered torture.

And who does our "justice" system vilify?

Strange world.

The Commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" has long been forgotten.

[Pavulon]

100. Thou shalt not murder is a more accurate

version taken in the general context of the other biblical passages noting crimes that would bring execution.

[JDPriestly]

110. What Bush did in Iraq was murder. That was not a defensive war.

It was an act of aggression.

[TheMadMonk]

90. OK you over the course of several dozens of posts have made you position clear.

NOW FUCKING DEFEND IT MATE.

We have repeated explained in words of one sylable to you why we hold the positions we do on this matter.

YOUR TURN.


Why is extrajudicial killing OK in your books? You PERSONALLY have directly called for it, so defend your position.

Why should torture be sanctioned when it's done by or on behalf of your wunnerful Amurkia?

Why is it OK for the United States to violate national sovreignties to extrajudicially apprehend those it wants?

Conversely, why is it OK: for the United States to flatly refuse to cooperate in any number of criminal procedings against US citizens around the world? For it to erect deliberate barriers against investigation? For it to even directly pressure sovereign parties to back down entirely?

Why is it OK for a helicoptor pilot to essentially beg for permission to shoot up a party of "terrorists", and for his controller to chuckle as he gives it? Point the first, the range at which the "engagement" took place, was more than double the effective range of the weapon (an RPG) with which the helicopter was supposedly threatened. Point the second, I'm no officionado of military equipment, but even on first viewing, I could see that the supposed RPG was not at all "assparagus tip" shaped, but had the very distinct trapezoidal outline of a lightshroud on a camera lens. It did take a second look to distinguish the "rifle" for a camera tripod, but with that second look I could clearly see that the "barrel" was far too thick. I'm not trained in threat recognition, the pilot is. And yet even with Youtube level compression I could see what he couldn't. Another telling thing, is that a lot less camera zoom was used for initial target recognition than was later used for target aquistion and kill confirmation. Later images prove that he could have zoomed in close enough to all but read the brand name off the camera body, and yet he stopped at the point where he saw something which MIGHT be construed as a threat.

Two choices mate. A cowboy pilot looking for an excuse to blow up a bunch of "ragheads" for fun. OR it was a deliberately targetted attack on journalists, with a couple of sniggering arseholes mugging for the official record. Once upon a time I would have demanded proof of the latter before entertaining it as a posibility. The Wikileaks material, and the response to it, tend to make me want proof that it wasn't the case before I will dismiss the possibility entirely.


Why is it a threat to national security: To publicise rapists in the ranks? To report the true scope of the Abu Grahib abuses? To report that the United States routinely kills entire families as the result of bad or even malicious intelligence from unreliable sources? To even acknowledge that these things happen at all.

Come on tell us: WHY?

So far the only argument you have offered is that it puts American lives/interests at risk. So fucking what? Those at greatest risk are those who are active (and all too often knowing) participants in the whole criminal enteprise. Informants? Meh, if only a fraction of the accusations leveled at the United States are true, then in collaborating, they rank more closely with traitors than freedom fighters. They are all people who live under constant threat of discovery.

[Pavulon]

95. Were just evil people. A nation of criminals.

I have not personally done shit. Assange is playing with people who will dose him with polonium and enjoy their vodka. he should spend that million.5 very soon, before publishing anything on Putin. Hopefully his people knew what they were getting into. Thats a realistic view.

Why? Because we can that's why. If someone ends up in a car trunk and in an air base in Italy, that does not happen in a vacuum. You think we did not get the nod, please. Thats why the Italians did not indict their people. They are IN ON IT.

The US acts in its best interest. Not as global provider of handjobs and free beer.

The Reuters event is documented they acknowledge their guy died embedded with the enemy. Its still a closed case, and will remain closed. It happens in war. The wrong people die.

I am FULLY aware the US (Executive and Legislative) is authorizing lethal operations globally. Just like it has since the end of WW2.

So what? Well there is always more cash to make friends with everyone pissed off by mannings cables. The world will not stop rotating.

Hey I have not seen anything on ABU GRAIB or GBAY, guess he is waiting for that book to drop.

[glinda]

98. Assange may be a man without a country.

[Pavulon]

101. He runs an intelligence agency with no state

that seems a dangerous place to be.

[Pavulon]

22. If he conspired with manning he will be tried and held

in florence with no access to anyone other than an attorney, just like Ames and hannsen were.

[lunatica]

25. He's not a traitor like they were. He's Australian

Manning is American, so they can hold him all they want.

[Pavulon]

27. non americans can be charged with conspiracy

and espionage and are subject to extradition treaties signed by all countries involved. Conspiracy carries a 25 year sentence.

[lunatica]

29. Thanks for the information

I didn't know that, but I still suspect the US doesn't really want Assange. Hot potato what with his 'Anonymous' supporters. They can do some real damage if they want to.

[Pavulon]

31. Guys in moms basement surrounded by crusty socks and red bull cans

are also subject to charge. There was one here who is being held in federal lockup for calling in bomb threats for lulz there. 17 and fucked for life with federal prison time.

Anonymous is not unified there are people including those who run forums used by them who have cooperated with federal government in the past.

Attacking web sites in one thing, the rest gets one of these thrown through your door and men with machine guns drag you to jail.

[lunatica]

36. History shows that total oppression doesn't work

If it did Rome would still be Empire and Assange would be crucified on some major avenue as an example for all to see. Total oppression has never happened.

[Pavulon]

37. The US is a representative democracy

we elect people to pass laws. Laws that make using a computer to break things a felony. DDOS and actual cracking are different things. Laws that state classified information is illegal to pass on if you have access.

It can not be dont both ways. The laws either get enforced or there is no point. Dont like the laws, elect different people.

Hero worship aside assange took a million.5, that came about from his handling of information that was stolen. If he stands trial it will be public in a federal court, just like the guy who called in bomb threats to get some chick to take her shirt off. Quid pro quo will be a problem for both these guys.

[Uncle Joe]

44. "The US is a representative democracy" how do you know if everything under the sun is classified and

the corporate media are most intent on feeding pablum to the people?

Being dumbed down as to political reality and world events does a major disservice to the American People in preventing them from making informed, intelligent deliberations when the time comes for the people to vote for their representative agents.

There are lives at risk but I would wager far more have been sacrificed due to major miscalculations by a populous; largely ignorant as to the reality of world events, at one time 70+% believed Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11 because the corporate media brain washed the American People into believing that ludicrous notion in spite of the overwhelming evidence, logic and common sense arguing to the contrary.

You can't elect good people to pass intelligent law best benefiting the nation when the public is continuously deceived or misinformed by their major information sources.

The only reason Wikileaks matters is because our so called "fourth estate" aka; corporate media; have so egregiously dropped the ball in keeping government accountable to the people while enabling their corporate clients and owners to dominate "We the people's" government.

You talk about Assange making a million and half; that's chump change, how many tens of billions will the corporate media make from selling out Universal Single Payer coverage as just one example of their obvious conflict of interest.

Whatever Assange; is, hero or villain, it's the message that matters, but the powers that be; staying true to their modus operandi would rather attack the messenger because that's so much easier than addressing the message(s). It's no different than the right wing's attack against Al Gore as being justification for ignoring the overwhelming scientific evidence warning of Global Warming and the results over the long term could be just as fatal.

[Pavulon]

46. Its different if his message is based on a criminal act, should the POTUS resign

thats what assange wants. He asked Obama to quit. So we have a guy making money calling on an elected representative to quit because he thinks so? Is that right?

This in not about global warming. Not about prescott bush or doug feith. It is about a criminal act. That is the focus of the whole thing. What manning did and who participated.

The rest is for the groupies and hero worshipers. The LOC is FILLED with information once classified. Thousands of FOIA requests are processed yearly, there is no right for all government business to be conducted in the clear.

[Uncle Joe]

49. What about Elsberg, the Pentagon Papers, and the journalists

breaking that story, was that a criminal act?

Investigative Journalism requires some interaction with their sources, waging conspiracy law against them sets a most dangerous precedent against any notion of a free press.

To my knowledge only a minuscule portion of the 250+ thousand cables have been released and those coming through established news sources.

This isn't about groupies and hero worshipers, this is about a deeply dysfunctional system which has in many cases been working against the American People's best interests by deliberately dumbing them down in regards to critical issues; domestic and foreign.

Even the State Department under the current Administration was using false propaganda against the American People to work against universal single payer health care.

I agree all government business need not be operated in the clear, diplomacy requires some discretion but that's the government's responsibility, not that of the press and diplomacy used as a weapon to dumb down the American People via false propaganda to warp domestic policy has no business even being classified.

You can't maintain a "representative democracy" if the people are dumbed down because some classified material might cause embarrassment to those in power.

Assange can call for anyone to resign, that means nothing if a critical mass of the people and their representatives don't demand it.

The worst thing Obama can do is to persecute Assange instead of facing the music; if there is music to be faced, Nixon fired his Attorney General; or at least he resigned because his conscious wouldn't allow him to persecute, that didn't help Nixon in the long run.

The dynamic in our current society seems to be the people's privacy is continuously eroded while that of "representative government" is only expanded, that's nothing but a recipe for disaster.

[Pavulon]

50. So is Obama nixon in this post?

do you have a leaked memo that states the government undercut single payer? Again there are reams of once classified data used by people to write books all the time.

This boils down to the cookie jar.. Momma said we cant have it, so we want in more. Myanmar sources, fuck em, HEU locations in Yemen, thats cool, dump it.

Dont worry, this problem will be fixed with cash, that cash will come from your check. Note the line item FED TAX,we will all be cleaning this shit up.

[Uncle Joe]

51. I don't believe so, but that statement holds true for any President persecuting

a free press in order to avoid disclosures of embarrassment.

If you believe Nixon was a one time shot and no President could abuse their power, then I believe you will either be sorely disappointed at some point or you already know that's false and just don't care.

On a thread by Judi Lynn.

Sicko was shown on Cuban national television.

There is one error on my part re: my previous post, this incident occurred during the last administration, not the current one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x571829

WikiLeaks cables: Michael Moore film Sicko was 'not banned' in Cuba
Film-maker says diplomats made up the story to discredit film that showed healthcare was worse in US than Cuba
David Batty guardian.co.uk, Saturday 18 December 2010 15.26 GMT

American diplomats made up a story that Cuba banned Michael Moore's 2007 documentary, Sicko, in an attempt to discredit the film which painted an unflattering picture of the US healthcare system, the film-maker said today.

(snip)

The film-maker said on his blog that the diplomatic cable, dated 31 January 2008, was "a stunning look at the Orwellian nature of how bureaucrats for the state spin their lies and try to recreate reality (I assume to placate their bosses and tell them what they want to hear)".

[TheMadMonk]

102. This is very much about Prescot Bush and those that have followed him.

This is about exposing powerful interests and the attempts by government to conceal the actions of those interests from public scrutiny.

No one that I'm aware of is advocating 100% government transparency. However, the practice of conducting almost ALL government business in secrecy is even less desirable. Particularly when amonst the secrets we know are still being kept is even more evidence of activities that cover the entire spectrum of criminality.

[Pavulon]

105. So obama should resign like assange says?

assange is just pimping his agenda. Unless you have access to TS data you dont really know, you are just guessing. File a FOIA request, the library of congress is filled with data once classified that no one cares about.

The cookie jar is open, everyone is all excited about what they are not supposed to see. Hey now we know locations and dates of people informing on myanmars cooperation with N> Korea. Thanks to assange, that is now in the clear.

[TheMadMonk]

96. And yet when your nose is rubbing revelations of high level malfeasance...

...and misfeasance, you invariably and immediately leap to attack the messenger.

If you cared one whit for the application of the law, you would care for EQUAL APPLICATION of the law. Instead you are on record (on this very forum) as advocating stepping outside the law to bring Assange to task, or simply assasinate him.

If you cared one whit for the application of the law you would not so vociferously defend the deliberate concealment of crimes committed, by America, Americans, American interests and/or crimes committed on their behalf.

[Pavulon]

99. Assange can be extradited

without any extraordinary effort. I am not ADVOCATING shit, just pointing out that others like him have turned up quite dead.

You think the President should resign as assange says? You know who signs off on lethal operations in the US right, its not some under secretary.

[Swagman]

112. your view is so pendantic and is so at odds

with the idea of a free democracy. You are fixated on 2 people who in the scheme of things are almost irrelevant compared to the high crimes they have exposed.

Exposing criminal actions is the only way we as a species can survive but your nitpicking about Manning's alleged activities that have exposed these crimes is ugly.

Wikileaks has exposed US politicians, officials and military leaders as being responsible for horrendous war crimes and yet those criminals roam free despite that.

Yet you have a bee in your bonnet about Manning and Assange and have the audacity to compare them with straight out spies.

Your nitpicking is just bizarre.

And your claim that Assange has accepted money for his deeds is an assumption that you have no right to make. He has accepted a book deal about his life which is a highly marketable product. And your insinuations about that $1.5M are ludicrous. You have never faced a legal bill like I'm sure he will-that amount will come no where near covering it.

As a judge once said-you are calling for the crushing of a butterfly by a steamroller.

[Ellipsis]

41. Ah yes the stinger battering Ram... Only 275.00 for 20 bucks worth of steel.

DOC what a profitable vertical to be in.

[TheMadMonk]

92. Pure unadulterated AUTHORITARIAN. /nt

[Pavulon]

94. Yep, failure to appreciate anarchist fucks calling for the POTUS

to step down makes me authoritarian. Right. Assange has an agenda, he can cram it up his ass. Hope he spends that million.5 quick.

[TheMadMonk]

91. These documents and many others before them contain proof of conspiracy...

...on the part of the Bush Administration, on the part of the Obama administration, on the part of Wall Street, Big Pharma, Big Oil, insurers, loan providers.

Where exactly is your outrage at the crimes revealed? Where is your outrage at the proof that those who bloody well should be policing the actions of others are instead fully aware of enormous wrong doing and do nothing, or are all too often, actively complicit in the very crimes they are tasked with preventing?

Always you go straight for the throat of the messenger and harp at any possible crime that might have been committed in bringing this information to the attention of the public. Steadfastly you refuse to acknowledge that amongst the prattle is revelation and confirmation of any number of "high crimes and misdemeanours".

[Pavulon]

93. I read cablesearch and have yet to see one that would make a case, and even IF

it did it is now inadmissible because some stole it and dumped it. So should the POTUS resign as Assange requested? Really fell free to answer.

[TheMadMonk]

109. Not so as a matter of fact. If the Police (or another LEA) had stolen...

...the material, then yes it would be inadmissible, as would any futher evidence obtained with its aid.

On the other hand evidence of crime found (or revealed) in the commission of another crime by a private citizen (The archtypical one being child porn found on stolen computers) is one hundred percent admissible. The defence is free to discredit it, but not to have it excluded.


Should Obama resign? If he has committed crimes he should be investigated and if the evidence warrants, prosecuted for them and if found guilty suitably punished. If he has committed crimes then this is incompatible with his position as POTUS. IF he had a scrap of integrity he would resign. If he continues to defend the indefensible then appropriate actions should be taken through proper channels, up to and including impeachment.

[smiley]

30. you obviously hope so.

yawn

[Pavulon]

32. Unlike the Assange is god manning is jesus people, I'll wait for the evidence

to show up in a trial. hope is not reality.

[Ellipsis]

33. Then stop posting about what ain't here.

[Pavulon]

34. I post as I see fit. There is plenty out there in public

a person whose IQ is above room temp can use to put forward an opinion. Mannings charge sheet is online. Lamo's logs are online. Assange's support (or lack of) for manning with cash is out there.

And of course you can find the evidence at cablesearch.org those marked SECRET represent a 10 year sentence and $10,000 fine EACH. I signed that paperwork and I believe those punishments are enhanced in war time.

Here is my call. Manning flips on Assange (new god, you know calls for the POTUS to resign) to take the death penalty off the table. His testimony is the basis for charges against assange. Either way manning dies in federal prison, he can spend his life locked up with hannssen.

If there is a conspiracy case against assange it will be interesting. We have treaties in place for criminal extradition with all nations involved. Personally I hope they have him on tape and his own people "leak" on him to prevent charges that will require large portions of their life be spent in prison.

Thats my bet..

[Ellipsis]

35. If... Happy New Year ya big lug.

[Nordmadr]

43. Taken just before the bear ate him. That's a joke. N/T

[Rhiannon12866]

87. Actually not. There was a thread about these pix a few years back.

Lots of folks here were quite worried about what happened to the dog until one helpful member posted this: :hi:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/polardog.asp

[glinda]

103. You put much faith in our judicial system and in our Government. Therein lies "your" reality.

[Pavulon]

107. Federal Court is an open forum.. Trials are public, you can go see the show(nt)

[ooglymoogly]

84. Yes that is what they are working toward and they have the means to do it

whether the evidence is manufactured, as in torturing Manning to tell them what they need to hear, and as in the way they got someone to lie about Manning by putting that person in a psychiatric unit previous to his accusation. His conviction in this country is a foregone conclusion and that is what is so diabolically scary.

[bemildred]

21. K&R. nt

[Uncle Joe]

38. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kster.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. It is a trait of the powerful to see knowledge in the hands of the people as a threat.

And, then claim that keeping that knowledge from the people is for their own good.

[spanone]

47. god forbid that humans live with the truth

:sarcasm:

[autorank]

48. k*r Great post!!

You're right, "Julian Assange’s only importance is that of figurehead." It's the other groups starting up leak services. You can't stop this and the failed attempt of our government to do so is a last gasp of a vulnerable power structure.

There will be many more leaks, from Wikileaks and others. Let the PTB beware.

[whosinpower]

54. You are correct - the revolution/rebellion has begun

I will also suggest this -

The atmosphere around the globe makes these leak services all the more....relevant. A global financial boondoggle that has thrown millions of people from their homes, lost jobs globally, increased tax burdens and austerity. Two wars waged under George W. Bush.....there is so much instability and a historic LACK OF CONFIDENCE of elected officials AROUND THE ENTIRE GLOBE.

Wikileaks is not the problem. Wikileaks is a symptom. When you continually lie, obscure, inflate issues with the public....they will not trust you.

Jail Assange. Do not jail Assange. It will not put pandora back into the box.

[wildbilln864]

55. k&r! nt

[KansDem]

64. "For the US government, . . . it’s lose-lose-lose."

That about sums up both our government's foreign and domestic policies...

[abelenkpe]

67. +1 nt.

[DeSwiss]

69. K&R

The irony here is that the vociferous supporters of Barack Obama somehow fail to connect these stupid acts of harassment of Julian Assange with his administration's policies. They are willing to excuse him for failing to stop this blatant violation of the FIRST AMENDMENT's "right of a free press and of free speech."

Now how is that?

- Could it be because they realize but won't admit out loud that he is just a figurehead in-place to do the bidding of his corporate/banking masters?

[Shining Jack]

72. K&R n/t

[bleever]

78. The Transparency Paradox that is linked to is also worth reading.

Direct link: http://ex.colayer.com/SPOT_sectionthetrans

It's a Game Theory look at the social/market dynamics involved.

[ooglymoogly]

81. kr nt

[Cutatious]

82. They are going to need more moles in positions to access secure documents

Right now their real money maker is cooling his heels in a military cell.

[russspeakeasy]

85. By "hiding" in the "open", he is frustrating his enemies.

I say...a job unfinished, but well done to this point...
I don't forgive and I don't forget...it gets me through the
day.

[snot]

86. I'm surprised and disheartened by the level of misinformation here.

Here's a summary of the situation with LINKS to supporting sources: http://www.c-cyte.com/The_Case_for_Wikileaks.html

[Divine Discontent]

108. Rec 100

[kgnu_fan]

118. They "swarm" to this topic so desparately. They are frightened of truth

[DearAbby]

111. K&R

[Skip Intro]

113. bla bla bla

do it or shut up