Some Things Have To Be Allowed To Percolate

[Solomon]

Beat me up, but I think some things take a little longer than we would like them to.

I think taxes on the wealthy are going to eventually get passed.

To most of us on the left, that this has to happen is a no-brainer and should have happened yesterday.

But to a vast majority of Americans who have been brained washed for more than 40 years, this is not so obvious.

Trying to force it at the wrong time could be disastrous. Allowing people to come around to the idea after endless debates about how to "fix" the deficit is what's going to turn the screw.

After all the dead horses are beat to oblivion, people will have to come around and admit that taxes will have to be raised on the rich.

[Brickbat]

1. What does "the right time" look like?

[ladjf]

11. Right now is the right time. There is not much more they can

steal from the poor, elderly and sick. We either return the tax rates to the 1955 levels or the entire financial system will collapse, hurting ALL Americans. That's a no brainer.

[Solomon]

14. I can't say what the "right" time is, but I think it will be on the table

soon. Maybe sooner than you think.

[Wait Wut]

23. Agreed.

The teapers popularity and approval is dropping. They're the ones that made the Rs go all bat-shitty(er). Can we give Bachmann a high-five for bringin' the crazy to the general public?

Anwyay...the Rs that felt pushed and bullied will hopefully feel comfortable shedding some of that crazy and begin to think like humans, again. And, to all those that will jump all over me for calling them human...get over yourselves.

[rdking647]

2. im wealthy

my taxes should be higher.. but also entitlements have to be cut.. there is no way to raise taxes enough to cover entitlements.
period

[monmouth]

3. What are the entitlements you speak of?

[rdking647]

17. medicare for one

medicare as its currently structured is a train wreck waiting to happen. It needs to be radically reformed.

my ideas..
1. get rid of the income tax cap on medicare contributions
2. phase in a medicare co pay of up to 20% of the costs of treatment for those able to afford,similar to private insurance
3. open medicare up to all americans as a public option
4. for the wealthiest americans,those making over 500k a year make their medicar tax equal to the actual cost of the insurance provided.
5. let medicare buy drugs from foreign sources.

im sure theres more

for ss id raise the income tax cap and phase in an increase in the retirement age. Id also reduce the maximun benefit for the wealthiest americans down to what teh average ss benefit is

[Tesha]

25. The entitlement I'd cut first is the entitlement that ships hundreds of billions...

...of dollars each year to defense organizations who
have come to believe they're "entitled" to this money
no matter what the political or economic situation.

If we ended *THAT* entitlement, there'd be plenty of
money for everything else our government does.

Tesha

[H2O Man]

26. I wish that

I could "recommend" a post on a thread.

[Solomon]

31. Me Too.

There's too much welfare going on, and it ain't on behalf of poor people.

[tkmorris]

4. Be specific. What entitlements do you want to cut?

And how would you go about doing so?

[Solomon]

6. Not arguing with you there. People are already upset because

the idea of cutting entitlements is already on the table. But raising taxes on the rich, which up to now, has been ditched, is going to come around.

[Sherman A1]

7. I assume you are talking of SS?

If so, I would point out that this was fixed in the 1980's and there is a surplus of money there and for good period of time to come.

[panader0]

8. How would you cut "entitlements"?

You'd have to change the term first.

[blondeatlast]

10. Thanks for volunteering. I don't care to take from the poor and infirm,

so would you consider talking up your fellow wealthy folk?

Damn biggaya--tip o'the hat to ya.

[monmouth]

20. Bwahaha...sorry, couldn't help it. n/t

[EOTE]

12. What makes you say that?

There are about 10 million tax payers who make up the wealthiest 5% of this country. If the average tax increase on that top 5% is $10,000, that's an additional hundred billion dollars per year. You're saying that an additional hundred billion dollars per year wouldn't make these "entitlement" programs solvent?

[damntexdem]

13. So there's no way to pay for what people are entitled to?

Wow, sounds like we're a really poor civilization.

Oh, my mistake -- thinking that we were civilized.

;-)

[ladjf]

18. Yes, there is a way to raise taxes enough to cover entitlements.

Go back to the 1955 levels. Unless you are in the top 2%, you aren't in the group that needs to start paying their fair share. Our budget problems are not created by hard working entrepreneurs, putting together a net worth of several millions. It's the super rich that is hoarding the money and buying our Government.

[ladjf]

5. Yes. How in the hell do they think that the budget can be balanced

by continuing to rob from the poor, old, and sick? The problem was caused by "Tax Cut Creep" over the last fifty years. The solution is to return the rates back to the 1955 rates. Further, we must
get our asses out of Iraq and Afghanistan,close most bases and cut the defense budget by at least 50%.

Check out the new deficit reduction proposals now being offered by the Progressive Caucus.

[JuniperLea]

9. I agree... and we need to use better language...

"Entitlements" aren't free. We paid into those systems and the people who held the fiduciary purse strings screwed us over... that's why they are trying to call these programs that WE PAY FOR "entitlements." I call bullshit on the whole meme... and Democrats who use those terms are equally at fault for the bullshit being spread.

It took a while to screw everything up. It's ridiculous to believe that everything could be fixed in a couple of short years.

[blondeatlast]

21. +eleventy. I cringe when I see or hear the word because I know what's going

to follow.

[JuniperLea]

28. That combined with the "the rich pay 33% of the taxes" bs is on my last frayed nerve!

2% of the population hold 98% of the money, and pay 33% of the taxes... meaning, the remaining 98% of us are left to squabble over 2% of the money while paying 66% of the taxes! That's how they trip us up... we start talking how much money is taxed, and they start talking people. We need to spell it out each and every time!

98% of the money should be generating 98% of the damn taxes! The disparity is mindboggling... and the mind fuck is fucking ridiculous... and we fall for it every time!

[EFerrari]

15. That used to be called "leadership". n/t

[H2O Man]

16. "We can still gouge

the horse's eyes." -- James Douglas Morrison

I'm not sure the "tax breaks" will lapse. If so, it would most likely be a partial return to past levels. And it is open for debate if, by that time, it would be enough to revive the economy for either the middle class or poor.

[Solomon]

19. We keep looking for a platform we can stick to.

If people make enough noise about this one point, perhaps the democrats will find it easier to do something about it.

[Newest Reality]

22. If by "people"

you mean a majority percentage of Americans, a generous portion of us admit and agree that the taxes have to be raised on the wealthy. We have also heard some wealthy people come forward and ask for a tax increase themselves.

I can't share your optimism here because, to me, there is much more at stake than a mere waiting game where people are supposed to eventually come around. If you look at the big picture, there is a vast redistribution of wealth in progress and it has been rolling merrily along and increasing for decades. We are at an apex where waiting and giving excuses is only useful as a way to be placated in this process. Millions are losing ground and becoming disenfranchised, displaced and discouraged in multitudinous ways.

No matter how little we are able to influence or change this course, the last thing we need to do is allow ourselves to find comfort in platitudes and any forms of manipulation that keep us from seeing how serious the long-term implications of this current financial and political war on the average person is.

When enough of us have lost everything and are dwelling in the Underclass with little hope or chance of recuperating or recovering into anything resembling our previous lifestyle, that's going to be a victory for the money masters and their political minions. Waiting too long could very well leave us with broken backs and dwelling in a neo-Third-World aftermath where only two classes exist and one, privileged group is protected and segregated from the rest of us Serfs.

[Solomon]

27. Look, I'm not arguing about the stealth that has gone on and

has been going on.

All I'm saying is that the leaders just can't force something when the mass of people have not been prepared.

So far, the republicans and teabaggers have convinced a lot of people that "tax cuts = jobs, growth, etc."

We here know that it's bullshit. But you can't really say that the mass of American people are demanding raises on taxing the wealthy. Not yet anyway.

When you look at it, the republicans and the teaparty are shooting themselves in the foot long-term by raising the words "debt" and "deficit" as the new "9-11."

The only way to solve the "deficit", is to raise taxes on the wealthy.

I'm saying that this is what the mass of Americans is going to see, and when they do, it will be far easier for the politicians to do it.

[MadHound]

24. Oh puleeze Vulcan, stop trying to make excuses for incompetence

The simple fact of the matter is that the majority of American people didn't want the tax cuts for the rich extended last December, and the majority of Americans would support tax hikes on the rich.

Stop trying to make excuses for piss poor "compromises" and a failure to do what the public at large favors by large majorities.

The only mistake on the road to hiking taxes on the rich was the face plant cave that Obama executed in spectacular fashion. He essentially didn't want to fight for what is right, what most people wanted, and caved to the 'Pugs and his wealthy corporate masters.

Geez, talk about trying to brain wash, and pushing a selective, skewed version of events, this takes the cake.

[Solomon]

29. Look I'm not making excuses for anything. Stop being so angry.

You say the "majority of Americans"...

and they say "the majority of Americans"...

So far, I haven't seen mass demonstrations that illustrate that the "majority of Americans" want ...

What I have seen is asshole teaparty people and republicans making so much noise that they have made "spending" the problem.

Well, what's going to follow from the "spending" problem is a demand that taxes on the wealthy be raised.

Don;'t give me polls, everybody's got polls. When people get in the streets and demand it, then we will know what Americans want.

[MadHound]

30. Oh, so that's the criteria now, people have to get out in the street to get change?

Gee, well then, guess what, nobody in power pays attention when the left has gotten out into the street either. Exhibit A: These illegal, immoral wars. Hundreds of thousands of people have gotten out into the street, yet the media didn't cover the events and here we are, involved in three illegal, immoral wars.
Exhibit B: Wisconsin, Ohio, etc. Again, hundreds of thousands of people are out in the street, yet the Obama administration yawns, as does most Washington Dems, and goes on as though nothing is happening.

Don't give you polls, hmm, don't want to sully your beautiful little mind with fact? The fact of the matter is that yes, an overwhelming majority of the American people didn't want the tax cuts for the rich extended, yet Obama caved. You don't want polls, fine, I won't link to any, go out and find them for yourself, Googling them isn't that hard.

Your criteria for bringing about change is essentially to listen to those who scream the loudest, whether they're in the majority or not, is that it? Gee, that's a sure recipe for piss poor leadership, that means that the minority of people get what they want, and the rest of us get nothing.

The simple fact of the matter is that most Americans simply don't have the time, energy or inclination to get out into the streets. They believer, reasonably so, that if they make their opinions known, through polls, letters, phone calls, emails, that their representatives will listen and carry out their wishes, to a greater or lesser extent. But now you are saying that people have to get out on the street before their views are considered legit? What, are we now living in some third world country that isn't a representative democracy?

Geez, why are you moving the goal posts? To provide cover for the Democrats and this administration? To provide excuses for their lack of a spine, their lack of courage? Sounds that way to me.

You don't like my "angry" tone, oh well. I have little patience with those who demand the impossible, and provide nothing but excuses and blather for our so called leaders who refuse to listen to, or carry out the will of the majority of Americans. That is the essence of a representative democracy, and so far, the vast majority of Congressional Democrats, and the Obama administration, are failing badly in this very simple task.

Stop your enabling of the Teabaggers, stop moving the goalposts, stop making excuses for Democratic failure. Oh, one other thing, educate yourself on what the people of this country are actually in favor of rather demanding the impossible of them.

[Solomon]

32. Okay. It's no sense debating with you because you are angry.

Maybe that's the problem, people are so busy proving their agendas instead of speaking to each other, people wind up just pissing each other off.

I said nothing about the administration in this post or thread. I'm just talking about where we seem to be, and what might happen next.

Your response, however, is full of aspersions against Obama and the democrats, as though my post was about Obama and the democrats. Also against me because you think I'm trying to "cover" or provide "excuses for democrats".

Well, your reply really speaks for itself. Your rant that people shouldn't do anything about their condition because that's "demanding the impossible" is simply indefensible to me.

I get it, "Don't DO anything about your situation. Just be angry." Right?