Why aren't we talking about the real issue re Obama/Vick: giving former convicts a second chance?

[chimpymustgo]

Should former convicts NOT get another chance to become productive, contributing members to society? Should they NOT be given a chance at redemption?

Imagine what our inner city communities would look like if more employers were willing to give jobs to former offenders who have paid their "debt" to society. Why is this not being encouraged with a passion the President (of whom I am a frequent critic) was said to possess when he discussed this with the Eagles owner?

Do you believe redemption is possible for former convicts?

[Bluzmann57]

1. I work with two ex cons

One did time in Iowa and one did time in the federal system. Both guys realize they made a mistake, did their time, and are good employees. Neither of them were convicted of violent crimes though.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

5. That's right. People who don't tolerate animal cruelty are racist.

:silly:

[Capn Sunshine]

43. it's not what they do or don't tolerate, its how they look at perpetrators

The agenda is clear. This isn't about dogs or animal cruelty. But I don't want to find myself defending what Vick did to go to prison. That's not what this is about. The more you say it is, the less it is. The message was deleted anyway. So I guess the whole idea went away. :crazy:

[Bluebear]

46. Bullshit. eom.

[Capn Sunshine]

60. yeah. That's about what I expect when there's no answer.

BS can be your best friend whan all else fails.

[Bluebear]

73. mmhmm.

[lamp_shade]

6. +1

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Some of us have tried

but hey what can I say?

I really do not get the outrage... faux and all.

[KansDem]

4. Certainly! What did you have in mind?

What is up with Michael Vick? He has shown absolutely no remorse or regret over his crimes against dogs. He literally, with his own two hands, electrocuted dogs with jumper cables, drowned dogs and puppies, hung them from trees and more. He did these things himself. Not one of his “workers,” or someone under his command but he himself. He sounds like a bad 70′s B movie star reading lines he has no opinion about whatsoever as he declares that he wasn’t a good “team leader” before, he wasn’t setting a “good example,” and he spent all that time away from the field. Not one word about the pain or death he inflicted on defenseless living creatures who are weak, injured and tortured.

You can’t forgive someone when they aren’t sorry.

Michael Vick has done nothing to show any change of heart on his behalf. No change of emotion. No regret. No remorse. No sorrow. No sign that he understands what he did at all. I know I’m not watching any Eagles football games this year.

Google some pictures of the Michael Vick’s dogs, look at the pain and suffering he inflicted. Feel angry. You should be angry about it.

Animal Advocates Alliance Warning: graphic photo

What kind of second chance for someone who killed eight dogs by shooting them, drowning them, hanging them, and slamming them on the ground?

I'm all eyes...

[Bunny]

10. Oh stop with the poutrage, and faux outrage, and racism, and everything else.

:sarcasm:

What is beyond belief to me is how anyone, ANYONE, can defend Obama's mention of Vick in his phone call. There are literally millions of businesses and ex-offenders who've given and received second chances that Obama could have singled out, but yet he chose the Philadelphia Eagles and the Sociopath Michael Vick. Anyone who claims to not understand the revulsion that we feel by this is being disingenuous, at best. I won't even say what I think 'worse' is. I'm not about to get banned from DU over Sociopath Michael Fucking Vick.

[Tx4obama]

24. It was a private phone call, placed to talk about the GREEN ENERGY installation in the stadium

Obama did not call the Eagles owner to talk about Vick, it was only one part of the conversation - considering that Vick works for the Eagles who do you think he should have talked to the owner about?
And what the hell is wrong with supporting the issue of ex-cons getting jobs after they have served their time and have been released from prison?
Should ex-cons be sent to a deserted island to live out the rest of their lives?
Should we prohibit ex-cons from working so that they will all become thieves?
Vick did his time in prison, he now has a right to live his life without further persecution.
If you don't like the laws of our justice system, then get to work changing them.
I am sure the republicans are cheering now that all the democrats are going nuts over this issue!

[Bunny]

27. I know why Obama originally made the call.

What I cannot comprehend is why he brought the Sociopath Micheal Vick into it. What was the point, when he could have chosen from literally millions of other ex-offenders? What was the point? It was incredibly tone deaf and a colossal fuck up on Obama's part. If you don't see that, I cannot help you understand my very real (not faux, for those who love the word) outrage about it.

[blondeatlast]

34. Exactly. He should have known that it would inflame lots of people and been blown out of proportion

--just as it has.

ENTIRELY PREVENTABLE--and alarmingly stupid--move.

[nadinbrzezinski]

So you'd be ok if he got a job as a janitor?

or perhaps none?

This dance is also about what he wil make in the NFL, and ENVY.

[Bunny]

19. Hmmm. Never once was his NFL salary mentioned in that post,

but you feel compelled to drag it in to the argument. You seem to have quite a bit of "faux outrage" yourself about this.

PS - what's wrong with being a janitor?

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. What is wrong with his choice of career?

Reality is that there is quite a bit of class envy here. I mean he should have never gone to the NFL. Well the NFL would have to change rules.

He served his time... and if the President mentioned an employer of a VONS in Paduka WI. it would have sunk. We are on day five of this. The issue is, can convicts or should convicts have jobs after leaving jail?

That is the issue.

Nor was Vic the main event in the call.

But keep the faux outrage going.

And no, he has forfeited his right to own a dog ever again... that goes without saying. But he is NOW gainfully employed UNLIKE many ex-cons. That is the story... and why this should serve as an EXAMPLE to OTHER employers.

But nah... as far as I have read here, he should walk over to the nearest cliff and just jump off.

This is ridiculous as LIBERALS once believed in redemption. I guess no more, or at least not if it involves dogs.

Read the OP... try to comprehend it.

[Bunny]

25. Oh I comprehended the OP alright. But thanks for the condescension.

That'll sure get your point across. And you go right ahead and keep your snide comments going. It's working really well for you. :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. The OP was clear

and people are still going off the deep end.

Sorry, that is the story. This "outrage," not realizing what the real fucking story was.

CONS need jobs too. Thanks for hiring an ex-con. Oh and by the way he committed a horrible crime.

That IS the cliffs notes...

Have a good day you too. I guess you will not answer the question though, should we all join in the call for the death penalty from Fox news?

:sarcasm:

[Bunny]

30. Since you're having problems with comprehension, let me remind you

that my post mentioned the millions of other business owners and ex-offenders who could have been selected to make Obama's point. I'm not sure why you cannot acknowledge that, unless it interferes with your need to condemn with charges of "faux outrage" and people "going off the deep end." And for the record, I'm against the death penalty in all cases. I guess that ruins your little scenario too, doesn't it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. And you think a call to Paduka KY would STILL BE

an issue of "Discussion?" You really do?

It would be the ok how nice... move on.

[Joe Fields]

76. Jesus give me a break. No one here is saying he shouldn't have a job.

Just not the NFL.

He can be a janitor, he can be an insurance salesman. He can be a used car salesman.

But the membership to the NFL is not a right. It is a privilege. He forfeited that right, in most people's opinions by becoming a convicted felon.

I do not worry about where Vick's next meal comes from.

I worry about Vick's contrition, and if he will become a recidivist, because, to date, he himself has shown no public remorse.

You want to cry for him, go ahead.

Personally, I feel as though he has given up the right to be in professional sports, because, no matter what you, or anyone else thinks, professional athletes ARE role models.

[KansDem]

28. If an animal needs to be "put down," a single shot to the head is more humane...

...if some kind of euthanasia drug is not available, and it's done to put the animal out of its misery. I had a cat once I had to have euthanized due to cancer of his esophagus. The vet did it with a drug and it's passing was swift and silent. At no time did I feel it "necessary" to electrocute, hang, drown, shoot, or slam him on the ground.

Oh, and no vet is going to euthanize a dog because he wasn't a "champion fighter."

I question his judgment: he sounds like one sick man and I question whether or not 18 months of prison was enough to "rehabilitate" him...

Let's call this ordeal for what it is: a sociopath is caught torturing to death animals and then is incarcerated for as short a time as possible so he can get out of prison and start earning big bucks for the high rollers...

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Let's call it for what it is

the justice system. You do not like it, change it.

But this is how it works right now. HE SERVED his time... whether you like it or not.

You don't have to watch him play... lord knows I won't... I am not a sports fan either so THERE.

But there is more to this than the crime... the outrage has all to do with race, there I said it, and money.

[Joe Fields]

75. I would be okay with any job he got, OUTSIDE of the NFL.

what about you?

[rustydog]

38. He was tried, convicted and served his time according to

our system of justice. We were not aware he had to please you.

[KansDem]

40. "...according to our system of justice."

Well, now, therein lies the rub, doesn't it? In German, that idiom is:

Da liegt der Hund begraben

...or translated literally, "There the dog lies buried."

How ironic!

[flvegan]

7. Agreed. Do away with the sex offender registries as well. Second chances all around!

Naturally, some of the folks on those lists *do* deserve to not be on there (DU had a ridiculous story about one "offender" the other day), but most...nah. Screw it. I know the workplace of someone that molested their child and served a couple years in jail. I think Obama should call them and thank them.

See how stupid we can get really quickly? Yes, a great number of former convicts should be afforded the chances described in the OP. Should Vick? Sure, but not in the NFL.

Now, who's gonna step up and call me a racist first?

[Bluebear]

9. Response #2

Preemptively.

[joshcryer]

39. Felons cannot have guns, likewise, this guy cannot have a dog.

And molestors cannot live near schools.

I don't see what issue you're trying to bring up because your post comes out as logically incoherent.

[flvegan]

42. How tragic.

I'm sorry you're not understanding the point.

[rustydog]

54. Were his dog fights in the NFL? No, he deserves a 2nd chance

We, the misinformed, just didn't know you were appointed his "decider" on 2nd chances.

[flvegan]

57. Actually, he opened his kennel with his signing bonus.

So no, I don't think he should be allowed back in.

And lookie lookie at the "decider" throwing stones.

:eyes:

[blondeatlast]

8. I'm all for second chances for convicts. Helping them attain juicy, multimillion endorsement deals--

not so much.

Are those former convicts possessed of multimillion dollar PR managers lusting after endorsementdeals and propping their clients up on teevee?

[Fumesucker]

11. Because Obama chose to highlight the issue via a sociopathic sadist who will be a multimillionaire..

For playing a kid's game in front throngs of adoring fans..

That is so far from what the average ex-con experiences that it's right through the damn looking glass..

And before anyone starts, I have a close relative I care about deeply that did six years on the chain gang so I'm hardly anti ex-con..

[blondeatlast]

15. Good perspective. Vick is the exceptional exception in the issue. Plus, I doubt your relative

is after a Nike or Reebok deal, either.

[nc4bo]

12. .

I'm pretty disappointed (and disturbed) with some of the anti-2nd chancer posts here on DU. Yes I'm related to a convicted felon, by marriage but he has other issues going on besides unemployment.

Thank goodness he's not dependent on any of the anti-2nd chancers for employment. He'd probably be SOOL and eating dirt sandwiches.

I guess convicted felons should go jump off a cliff as far as they're concerned.

[Bluebear]

14. I'm pretty disturbed about the torture Vick inflicted on animals.

To compare your convicted felon relation to Vick, who is earning millions of dollars for playing football, is just incredible. "Anti-2nd chancers" indeed.

[nc4bo]

18. That's just fine Bluebear. You are very much entitled to feel however you like

and so am I.

[onehandle]

13. Animal Fighting Case Study: Michael Vick:

“In or about April 2007, PEACE, PHILLIPS, and VICK executed approximately 8 dogs that did not perform well in ‘testing’ sessions … by various methods, including hanging, drowning, and slamming at least one dog's body to the ground.”

A report by a U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) investigator provided more details on the April 2007 killings, saying that the men hung approximately three dogs "by placing a nylon cord over a 2 X 4 that was nailed to two trees located next to the big shed. They also drowned approximately three dogs by putting the dogs' heads in a five gallon bucket of water." They killed one dog by “slamming it to the ground several times before it died, breaking the dog’s back or neck.”

According to a witness, the men fought their trained pit bulls with pet dogs, and they “thought it was funny to watch the pit bull dogs belonging to Bad Newz Kennels injure or kill the other dogs.”

They hosted fights at the Virginia property and transported dogs to other states to participate in fights. The fights usually occurred late at night or in the early morning and would last several hours. Before fights, dogs would be bathed to remove any poison or narcotic that might have been placed on them to hinder their opponents’ performance. Losing dogs sometimes died in the pit. Gambling purses were frequently in the thousands of dollars.

Dogs who lost fights were sometimes executed:

“In or about March of 2003, PEACE, after consulting with VICK about the losing female pit bull's condition, executed the losing dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal.”

When Davon Boddie, Vick’s cousin, was arrested on drug charges, he gave Vick's property as his address. Surry County authorities searching the property found probable cause to obtain - a second search warrant for animal cruelty/dogfighting. Police discovered:
- approximately 54 dogs, mostly pitbulls, some with scars and injuries; most were underfed
- about half of the dogs were chained to car axles and just out of reach of each other, a typical arrangement for fighting dogs
- a blood-stained fighting area
- animal training and breeding equipment, including a “rape stand”, a device in which a female dog who is too aggressive to submit to males for breeding is strapped down with her head in a restraint
- a “break” or “parting” stick, used to pry open fighting dogs' mouths during fights
- treadmills and “slat mills” used to condition fighting dogs
- assorted paperwork documenting involvement in animal fighting ventures
- performance-enhancing drugs commonly used to increase the fighting potential in dogs, as well as to keep injured dogs fighting longer.

http://www.aldf.org/article.php?id=928

[chimpymustgo]

16. Jesus. Christ. I think there's a 12 step program for this.

Are you saying there is no redemption for all felons, or just the ones YOU decide about?

[onehandle]

17. I think someone in the administration chose Vick because he is a football success.

There are a lot of reformed felons out there. This action was purely political and I wish Obama would had said no.

[blondeatlast]

21. I'm actually glad that Vick has "honest" work. I'd wish that for any ex-con who

honorably did his/her time (in fact, I've worked with many doing community service).

But if they can't get Nike endorsement deals, poor them--and poor Vick. Sucks to be a torturer of living beings.

[tallahasseedem]

67. There is redemption...

but only if your crime doesn't involve Fido.

There I said it.

[Joe Fields]

78. redemption and being let back into the NFL are two different issues.

I don't give a flying FUCK how good of an athlete the man was, he should not have been allowed back into the NFL, period.

I don't care if he becomes a used car salesman or an insurance salesman or a greeter at WalMart. And I, for one have no worries that the man would never have to worry about where his next meal is coming from. He is a disgrace to the human race and has no business ever being in a glorified position again, where he can make millions of dollars.

[emilyg]

37. Thanks for posting.

[wtmusic]

20. Child / dog molesters shouldn't be given another chance...

or so say many here (It's interesting that woman molesters do seem to be entitled to a second chance, though).

If we made dog molesters where shirts with a large "D", child molesters shirts with a large "C", etc., we'd soon run out of letters. Put all the psychotic, sick perverts who have ever broken the law in detainment camps? :shrug:

[tsuki]

22. No. According to Rupert Roo News, they should be executed. Are

all Australians so blood thirsty? Or is it the Saudi influence.

[dembotoz]

29. HE DID HIS TIME

the judge did not sentence him to public floggings.
to sobbing on tv
to groveling at animal shelters

i do not like the man
i would not cheer him
i would not ask his autograph
i would not friend him on facebook
i would not ask him to babbysit my kitties
I would not buy his team jersey in a store or rummage sale.

But the fact is we throw a ton of folks in jail every day, month and year.
Compared to other nations we have a damn lot of folks in prisons.
Most of them get out at some time. We tend to frown on mass executions--Maybe that will come in
palins second term.....You will have to wait for vicks execution until then.
Until then we had better come up with a way to incorporate these folks back into society.
Since thanks to Regan and clinton et al there is very little safety net left.
A person needs to be able to make a living. And if a man with the obvious talents that Mr vick
does have isn't allowed to make it --what chance does anyone else have.

I would have rather seen obama salute an employer who hires alot of felons who have served their time and gotten their lives back together and are now functioning citizens. But that would not
have made the papers and i would not be droning on about it on du.

[Bluebear]

31. BUT THAT IS THE POINT

'I would have rather seen obama salute an employer who hires alot of felons who have served their time and gotten their lives back together and are now functioning citizens. But that would not
have made the papers and i would not be droning on about it on du.'

It WOULD make the papers if Obama highlighted such an employer, rather than the safer pick of a football star.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. In our current media environment, you kid me right?

[chimpymustgo]

32. Great post, dembotoz.

[joshcryer]

36. Exactly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. +1000

I wish I could recommend THIS POST>

[Joe Fields]

79. Are you going to smugly sit there and tell me that poor Michael Vick,

if not allowed back into the National Football League, would starve, go on food stamps, revert back to a life of crime and animal cruelty, and maybe even commit more heinous crimes?

Fuckety fuck fuck fuck...

You are waaaaay out of bounds here.

The man deseves no RIGHT to get back into the NFL.

But then, it is all a moot point, isn't it? Because passing and running with a football is just soooo goddamned important, isn't it?

Fuck all people who think so.

Vick is scum, and I believe that he would be hired by some company, whether it be a roofing company, insurance co., casino, but I guarantee you that you don't need to cry for the asshole. There are plenty of assholes who would be glad to have him on their payroll.

This country is fucked up beyond belief, and this issue is a perfect illustration.

Get fucking real. Especially when there are non violent criminals who won't have a chance to even work at WalMart, and you cry for Vick?

It makes me want to puke.

[tallahasseedem]

69. Bravo!

Excellent post!

[blondeatlast]

33. Let's do, indeed. Just as long as they aren't seeking Nike deals, m'kay? I've supervised community

service workers, including many on probation, who seemed truly repentant and sincere and weren't seeking (esspecially with the help of $3000 suit wearing PR men) multi-million dollar endorsement contracts.

THOSE are precisely the kind of guys/gals that Obama should be spotlighting. I really wish he would have. I not only support giving them second chances--I've helped them do so and some are quite worthy of postitive notice.

[joshcryer]

35. Hahahahahahahahah ahahahahhahahahahaha

This is DU.

[woo me with science]

41. Some of us have been.

My point all along has been that there are many, many felons who would have been a better choice to draw attention to the President's interest in rehabilitation.

[blondeatlast]

44. Exactly.

And they aren't in hot pursuit of juicy endorsement deals, either.

[chimpymustgo]

48. Is Vick "in hot pursuit of juicy endorsement deals"? And if he gets one, is it HIS fault?

I am dumbfounded by the vicousness here - and this OP is not about VICK.

[blondeatlast]

49. You're the one who mentioned Vick--why did you think that's who I referred to?

And really--that was VICIOUS?

You have a warped sense of "vicious," IMHO.

[chimpymustgo]

55. Please re-read the OP.

[Forkboy]

56. "I am dumbfounded by the vicousness here"

That's what Vick's dogs must have been thinking.

[blondeatlast]

59. Thank you...

I was trying so hard not to jump on that oh-so-revealing irony.

[Joe Fields]

80. Oh yes it was about Vick.

There is a difference about redemption and privilege.

You don't seem to understand it.

[upi402]

45. Redemption happens and needs to be allowed for

It's the Christian thing to do. Odd that the Republicans and CNN Hairdos want to execute everyone who has screwed up.

[Aleric]

47. The moment you bring Obama into it it stops being about Vick

If you want to talk about Vick getting a second chance we can talk about that.

If what you really want to do is talk about Obama's role in making that phone call, then it's a different subject.

When Obama starts making phone calls to employers around the country who aren't high-profile multimillionaire donors and who's second-chance-employees are not high-profile millionaires, then I'll look more favorably on this.

As it is, this is little different than calling Merrill Lynch and congratulating them for giving Bernie Madoff a second chance.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

61. Do you know the reason Obama made the call to the eagles? n/t

[Aleric]

63. Yes, but according to Lurie, Vick was topic #1

"The president wanted to talk about two things, but the first was Michael. Lurie said,"

--http://bleacherreport.com/articles/554586-philadelphia-...

[blondeatlast]

64. Yes, to complement them on building a green stadium. Had he stopped there,

no problem--in fact, I would be wildly applauding his promoting an off-the-grid stadium.

Unfortunately, even this cheerleader thinks he was incredibly stupid not to have left it at that. there were plenty of hardworking ex-cons he could have singled out. A dog torturer--not a shining example.

[Aleric]

68. Except that he LED the conversation with Vick, it wasn't the second topic. n/t

[blondeatlast]

71. That's what I understand--just trying to deflect some of the

more strident deniers in this thread.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

72. unless i'm wrong tho he condemned what Vick had done but commended the fellow on hireing an ex-con

To me that seems to make perfectly sense

[Tx4obama]

65. How many NON-millionaires do you know that put GREEN ENERGY in a stadium?

Obama called the Eagles owner about the alternative energy project that is being done at the stadium.
If Obama wanted to mention that he supported ex-cons getting jobs after they have been released from prison after doing their time for a crime then Obama had every right to do so. It was a PRIVATE phone call, not a speech, not a public statement.

[tallahasseedem]

70. Hey!

There is no room on this thread for a sensible post! ;)

[stray cat]

58. It seems we are very selective on the criminals we care about giving a second chance at life

Many really do seem in favor of capital punishment -just by a really slow death of alienation from everyone and no job prospects

[Fumesucker]

77. There is a difference between "no job prospects" and ...

"Sociopathic sadist given a multimillion dollar job contract to play a kid's game in front of legions of adoring fans"..

This thing with Vick is so far beyond what the average ex-con experiences that we have jumped through the looking glass and then dived down the fucking rabbit hole and the White Knight is talking backward in Esperanto..

Jeebus on a neon paisley print pogo stick, I have an ex-con in my own family that I care about deeply so I'm hardly anti ex-con but Obama screwed the pooch on this, it was a remarkably tin-eared thing to say and particularly so for someone who is a brilliant politician. Vick may be popular with a lot of football fans but there are a hell of lot of people who love dogs that despise him and the reaction to Obama's statement on him was roughly as predictable as pain following dropping an anvil on your foot.

[TexasObserver]

62. recommend

[tallahasseedem]

66. Absolutely...

Remember Tookie Williams? Many posters here on DU were outraged over his execution. Now, what if Tookie Williams did what Michael Vick did? Would they still feel the same way? I think not...

[Joe Fields]

74. redemption yes, but, not allowed back into the NFL.

trust me. this guy would never ever have to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

Being a member of the National Football league is not a right. It is a privilege, and Vick forfeited that privilege when he was convicted of a felony.

He could easily get a job doing anything else. But the NFL? Well, the fact that they let this (so called man) back in says more about the league than it does about him.

Think about all of the non violent criminals who don't possess athletic skills that do not have a chance of getting hired by some company because of their past.

Fuck Vick and the greedy sons of bitches he rode back in on.