Well well well.. Maybe doctors don't make the huge salaries we have been led to believe.

[SoCalDem]

Why is this important?

Because the insurance overlords would have us believe that they are the only thing holding the system together.. Look at some of these salaries & ask yourself why we could not have a nationalized health care system and pay doctors at least as much as they are making now from taxes instead of premiums.. Doctors don't care who pays them, they just want to be paid. The doctors most of us see are part of a clinic anyway, and are paid by contract with that facility. There are not many "Marcus Welbys" these days.

To paraphrase a famous republican.. Insurance is not the solution..it;s the problem

http://www.the-travel-nurse.com/doctor_best_salaries.html
Doctor Salaries

Doctor Salaries have a wide range of earnings. This is based in part on the specialization into different practices such as cardiac surgeons, pathologists, oncology and family practice. The generalist or family practice doctor tends to be the lowest paid of the all the doctor salaries with such specialties as cardiac surgeon enjoying some of the highest of the doctor salaries. According to U.S. Department of labor statistics doctor salaries are separated into the following specialty areas; Family and General Practice, General Internists, Anesthesiologists, Obstetricians and Gynecological, Pediatricians, Psychiatrists, Surgeons, and Podiatrists.

Family and General Practice Doctor Salaries

In 2003 there were 111,990 family and general practice doctors in the United States earning approximately $139,640 per year. In 2009 that number has dropped to 99,000 earning an average of $168,550. That's an increase of $28910 but almost 13,000 less doctors to see patients. The lowest paid doctors earn $82,630 per year while the highest earn over $237,000 per year.

General Internists Doctor Salaries

In 2003 there were 50,140 general internists in the United States earning an average of $160,130 per year. In 2009 there are 48,270 earning an average of $184,990. The lowest paid internists earn over $93,000 while the highest average is over $250,000 per year.

Anesthesiologists

In 2003 there were 23,790 anesthesiologists earning an average of $$184,880 in the United States. In 2009 there are 37,450 earning an average of $211,750 per year. These doctor salaries range from a low of $115,000 to a high of $400,000 per year being reported in some cases. Keeping in mind that these are averages and that actual wages will vary widely from these figures. This type of doctor frequently goes into practice for themselves or with other anesthesiologists as a group.

Obstetricians and Gynecological

There are approximately 20,380 Obstetricians and Gynecological doctors working in the United States with the latest data being from 2009. The average annual salary is over $204,000 with a low of $99,500 and a high of $250,000 for these doctor salaries. The highest paying state for these doctors to earn salaries is Wisconsin and the best paying industry is physician offices also known as private practice.

Pediatricians

According the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics there were 29,460 Pediatricians in 2009. The average pediatrician salary is $161,400. They earn a low of $84,840 to a high of $215,000 per year. Private practice or with a group practice is the best paying area for these doctors.

Psychiatrists

In 2009 there were 22,210 psychiatrists working in the United States earning an average salary of $163,660. The low average is $65,500 and the high annual wage is $220,500. The best paying state to be psychiatrist is Oregon. Psychiatrists in a private or group practice enjoy the highest earnings.

snip

and another good link

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2F_Doctors/Salary

[Hannah Bell]

1. It's not doctor's salaries; it's corporate profit-taking on each & every medical interaction.

[Scuba]

3. Bingo. Why should insurance company stockholders receive a dime of our healthcare money? ....

...the insurance companies add ZERO benefit to the process of delivering care, yet reap profits that hospitals would cherish.


Shame on the health insurance industry - mass murder for profit.

[madokie]

4. My neighbor is on a wet something or other breathing machine

and the medicine that it/he uses cost 950 bucks a month of which medicare picks up the tab on. Now that is a rip off. When I was in the hospital with a DVT and when they sent me home they sent with me 5 injections of heparin to take over the next two days and the doctor told me to guard this medicine with your life as it cost 2500 bucks an injection. Again we're getting ripped off by big pharma bigtime. The heparin was in a little tiny, whatever its called that has the needle on it. Anyways it couldn't have been more than a drop of medicine in each one.
I guess ol ALzheimers is making a visit this morning as I can't remember shit. Damn I hate it when that happens :-)

[w8liftinglady]

7. I had to take the same thing with my dvt

Lovenox- a heparin derivative,was 800/week and I had to use it for 4 weeks. This was with insurance...the cost would have been 2400/week if I was uninsured.
I pawned a ton of shit when I was sick.It is insane that these companies are so greedy.I have no problem with profit.Pharmaceutical CEOs make 40 million plus stock dividends in salaries.

[madokie]

14. I was lucky to be a Vet

My week in the VA hospital and all the meds associated with that cost me a whopping 1068 bucks. Trust me I'm not bitching either. If it hadn't been for the VA I'd be dead now cause no way could I have gotten the needed care because just flat don't have the thousands of dollars it would have cost.

[RKP5637]

6. Which is why Ryan's Medicare voucher solution is brilliant!

It will murder off older people via no healthcare and fix any social security problem at the same time. The man is a genius.

:sarcasm:

But really, that is the net/net of it all. If privatization worked so well today, we wouldn't have millions of uninsured in America. Now, the republicans want to add older people to that mix with vouchers, they will NEVER be able to afford the premiums, they will die off and achieve the republican objective. Murdering off old people, cutting cost and funneling the money via tax breaks to the wealthy elite.

[SoCalDem]

12. It's because the insurance companies see MILLIONS of lost customers as the boomers retire

and stick a thumb in their eyes, as we leave them in the dust..Many of the workers behind us, have low paying jobs..service industry jobs with few , if any benefits..

where WILL they get all their customers when we all bail on them?

THAT'S what this is all about..

They nabbed us as we entered the job market & offered us HMOs..and have been fleecing us for 40 years, and now they want to follow us to our graves as they try desperately, to hold on to us:grr:

[RKP5637]

16. I think you're the first I've heard that has pointed out that angle, the lost

customers as boomers retire and those following on having low paying jobs. Very very good point! I think you hit the nail right square on the head!

[slipslidingaway]

21. Yes - They're Winning - Private insurance companies push for 'individual mandate'

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/slipslidingaway/11

"As momentum gains for reforms, insurers hope to turn it to their advantage by supporting a proposal that everyone buy coverage. It would be a boost for the industry, which has seen enrollment decline.


...But this time, it turns out, the health insurance industry has good reason to support at least some change: It needs it. Private health insurance faces a bleak future if the proposal they champion most vigorously -- a requirement that everyone buy medical coverage -- is not adopted.

...Insurers do not embrace all of the healthcare restructuring proposals. But they are fighting hard for a purchase requirement, sweetened with taxpayer-funded subsidies for customers who can't afford to buy it on their own, and enforced with fines.


...The industry's real trouble begins in 2011, when 79 million baby boomers begin turning 65. Health insurers stand to lose a huge slice of their commercially insured enrollment (estimated at 162 million to 172 million people) over the next two decades to Medicare, the government-funded health insurance program for seniors..."


For insurers, getting "run over" would be the adoption of a so-called single-payer plan, where the government pays all medical bills. Such a plan would wreak havoc on the private insurance market, and is widely viewed as politically unfeasible this year. So the best way for the industry to preserve the private insurance market -- and derail the campaign for a single-payer system -- may be to go along with more palatable proposals on the table now, said Jeffrey Miles, a healthcare analyst and president of the Miles Organization, a Los Angeles insurance brokerage firm..."

[Bluerthanblue]

22. this is an EXCELLENT point- makes sense that its part of the

push for Ryan's private vouchers- which would drive the money back to the insurance co's.

I'd never thought of that aspect to this.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. There are exceptions.

Here in north Jersey, I know of an orthopedic surgeon who not only will not accept insurance of any kind, but insists that his patients pay 100 percent cash up front. The patients come to the office like a movie, with attache cases full of bundled bills. And we're talking about at least six figures for procedures. Then they have to deal with hospital expenses on top of paying him.

[Donnachaidh]

9. there are LOTS of exceptions

My pain doctor used to complain about having to pay more than minimum wage to his office staff -- yet he was able to fund a series of medical buildings in *3* different communities that quickle filled with leasing medicos. All that dosh was just part of his income.

Yet he bitched about paying the help a living wage.

My surgeon goes off on a tangent about tort reform when given the chance. However, he and his partners are building medical mini-cities all over the metro Atlanta area, and are booking the surgeries in from sunrise to sunset -- yet he doesn't feel he's paid enough. This latest whine happened just after he'd gotten back from a weekend trip to LasVegas.

I'm sure there are doctors out there not making a decent wage. But I don't think it's as big as some would like to have others think it is. And I'd also like the doctors who complain about this to be asked the question middle america has been facing for at LEAST a decade from employers everywhere.

Who are you to believe you *deserve* a certain level of pay these days? You're not the only ones who have student loans, car payments, home payments, etc.

Until we ALL push for universal single payer health CARE -- ****not**** insurance protection plans -- we're all screwed, and we all should be wondering WHY we're being told we don't *deserve* things.

[Hannah Bell]

39. he apparently has his own practice. that's no longer the norm.

As recently as 2005, more than two-thirds of medical practices were physician-owned — a share that had been relatively constant for many years, the Medical Group Management Association says. But within three years, that share dropped below 50 percent, and analysts say the slide has continued.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/health/policy/26docs.html

[Ilsa]

5. Of course, some double-specialties, like cardiac pediatricians,

probably make at the higher end.

I've been telling friends for ages that Dr salaries are not what people expect. They have to bond themselves to the thieving insurance companies, take huge discounts.

[SoCalDem]

8. Even so, those wages are NOT outrageous, by any standard

sure, the concierge doctors-to-the-stars get paid mega-bucks, but I'd bet my last dollar that MOST doctors would JUMP at the opportunity to be employed by the taxpayers at a decent rate, and most would probably LOVE to be out from under the piles of paperwork & flaming hoops of the insurance companies..

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. My cousin is an anesthesiologist and her malpractice premium is more than my yearly salary

But she's a good Democrat. :)

[SoCalDem]

24. I have read that in countries that have national health care, the malpractice issue pretty much goes

away.. The US seems to be the malpractice mecca.. There was a special on PBS a while back & they asked people about suing doctors & the people said, why would you sue your doctor?..the theory was that the doctors were doing the best they could for you, and if you had a problem from the treatment, they would re-treat you..and since it cost you nothing out of pocket, why would you need to sue?

Lots of times people here sue BECAUSE a medical injury might render them un-insurable for the additional care they may need afterward. Remove insurance, and you have a doctor-patient-hospital relationship, and surely most doctors do not harm their patients.. and sometimes there are just "bad-outcomes", no matter how careful a doctor is..

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. My cousin is a huge supporter of single payer

And for many of the reasons you stated.

[w8liftinglady]

13. for the record,the guy who whittled my brain made $800k last year.

and the neurologist who diagnosed me made $400K (They work through UTSW- not hard to find out).
They both sacrificed a good portion of their young adult life to learning...and have saved thousands of lives because of their skills.I have no problem with them making good money. It keeps them focused on healing.

[blondeatlast]

19. having had some delicate surgery myself I don't begrudge them that.

My son's pediatrician clears about 120K I would guess. Comfortable, yes, but I sure as hell don't consider it wealthy.

[Quantess]

11. Doctors provide a necessary service to humanity.

Insurance CEOs do not.

Doctors deserve a good salary, and insurance companies are useless bloodsuckers, IMHO.

[Lugnut]

33. +100 n/t

[seabeyond]

15. those doctors dont. the specialists do. nt

[SoCalDem]

17. Obstetricians and Gynecological= specialist,(in my book anyway)

Obstetricians and Gynecological

There are approximately 20,380 Obstetricians and Gynecological doctors working in the United States with the latest data being from 2009. The average annual salary is over $204,000 with a low of $99,500 and a high of $250,000 for these doctor salaries. The highest paying state for these doctors to earn salaries is Wisconsin and the best paying industry is physician offices also known as private practice.

..........................

seems rather low to me .. I think these docs could do as well under a single-payer/nationalized health care system...or better.. I would gladly pay MORE in doctor salaries..and it seems to me it could be done once the insurance companies quit skimming off MILLIONS ..

I WANT brain surgeons, ob/gyn/cardiac etc doctor to be very well paid.. It costs them a bundle in education, and I sure don't want a grumpy underpaid doctor if I am sick:)

[blondeatlast]

20. My PCP is quite wealthy. Absolutely wonderful woman--and

she supports a single-payer system. In '04, she papered her office with John Kerry chum!

Her wealth doesn't come from her practice but it supported her well for many years. I don't begrudge her a dime.

[slipslidingaway]

18. knr - and some interesting points in this link ...

The Deceptive Income of Physicians
http://www.eyedrd.org/2011/02/deceptive-income-of-physicians.html

"...In 2007, physicians from over 20 specialties were asked how many hours per week they generally work – the average was 59.6 hours per week.1 So even after physicians finish their 40,000 hours of training they continue to work one-and-a-half times as much most Americans for the rest of their career. In short, physicians work two-full time jobs while in training and one-and-a-half full time jobs when they are finished..."

[Bluerthanblue]

23. good info- k&R

thanks for this.

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. $170,000+ is an exclusive club.

Only 4% of households bring in that much.

[slipslidingaway]

26. You have to look past the gross income, hours worked, years of training ...

large amount of student debt etc.

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. That's not the point of the op.

The OP says that $170,000 isn't all that much money.

If the plumbers union strictly controlled how many people were licensed to do plumbing, and the penalty for doing plumbing without a license was a felony, you'd see comparable wages for plumbers.

[slipslidingaway]

28. The OP talks about training ...

"...Doctor Salaries have a wide range of earnings. This is based in part on the specialization into different practices..."

You cannot just look at one number, there are other factors.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. The main "other factor" is that doctors strictly control the supply of doctors. n/t

[slipslidingaway]

32. Other factors below ...

http://www.eyedrd.org/2011/02/deceptive-income-of-physicians.html

"...In 2007, physicians from over 20 specialties were asked how many hours per week they generally work – the average was 59.6 hours per week.1 So even after physicians finish their 40,000 hours of training they continue to work one-and-a-half times as much most Americans for the rest of their career. In short, physicians work two-full time jobs while in training and one-and-a-half full time jobs when they are finished. They have to work nights, evenings, weekends, holidays and take call. For most physicians, there is no such thing as overtime or holiday pay..."


Medical miscalculation creates doctor shortage - 2005
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor-shortage_x.htm

"...The government spends about $11 billion annually on 100,000 medical residents, or roughly $110,000 per resident. The number of residents has hovered at this level for the past decade, according to the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education.

In 1997, to save money and prevent a doctor glut, Congress capped the number of residents that Medicare will pay for at about 80,000 a year. Another 20,000 residents are financed by the Veterans Administration and Medicaid, the state-federal health care program for the poor. Teaching hospitals pay for a small number of residents without government assistance.

...Most worrisome, the retirement of baby boom physicians means the number of doctors will start falling just as the first baby boomer turns 70 in 2016, says Ed Salsberg, a workforce specialist at the Association of American Medical Colleges.

...The United States stopped opening medical schools in the 1980s because of the predicted surplus of doctors. The Association of American Medical Colleges dropped this long-standing view in 2002 with the statement: "It now appears that those predictions may be in error." Last month, it recommended increasing the number of U.S. medical students by 15%..."

[anneboleyn]

36. Professors go to school longer for Ph.D.s, work as hard (or harder), and earn far less than doctors

but then CEOs make more than any of them, and they are contributing the least to the general good of humanity.

[JVS]

37. Yeah. They're doing fine.

[Initech]

30. They also pay insane amounts of money on student loans.

[taught_me_patience]

34. They don't. My wife is an MD

and makes less than 150k. It's good until you realize that she has 100k in student loans and did not get a chance to start saving money until age 30. Our nest egg is very small and we're both in our mid thirties.

[SoCalDem]

35. The insurance lobby & legislators & media have done a number on doctors

Probably most people think that doctors (all doctors) are rich, and greedy...they never think about the massive debt they carry well into their 40's (and beyond), and the fact that MOST are NOT in a chi-chi private practice . Most are little more than contract workers to medical clinics, and work very long hours..

The whole "debate" about medical care reminds me of the union-demonization/teacher-hate that's in vogue..

evil, bossy unions
lazy, incompetent teachers
greedy doctors

It's a smear tactic of epic proportion, designed to protect the "middlers" who are reaping the bounty, while eviscerating the systems to the detriment of everyone else.

[BzaDem]

38. Actually, provider payments (including but not limited to doctors) are the reason that medical costs

are so high.

Insurance skims off a small amount relative to providers. Insurance companies are great to demagogue, but you could make all insurance companies non-profit tomorrow and medical costs would still be rising at multiple times inflation. The reason medical costs are lower in other countries is because prices for medical care (i.e. provider payments) are controlled. This is true in Single Payer countries (where the negotiating leverage of the government is essentially a price control), and non-Single-Payer countries (where prices controls are direct). Until there are price controls, medical costs will continue to rise at unsustainable rates (with or without for profit insurers).

Insurers are certainly a problem, but they are not the only one (or the biggest one).