Libya conflict: Gaddafi 'cluster bombing Misrata'

[howard112211]

Abdullah, a doctor in Misrata, told the BBC he had seen evidence of the use of cluster bombs
Continue reading the main story
Libya Crisis

Pro-government forces in Libya have been accused by a human rights campaign group of using cluster bombs, which are banned by more than 100 countries. ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13102328

Too bad our national record on the matter is so fucking tainted that we have no way to speak out against this without looking like complete hypocrites.

[tabatha]

1. Agreed about the fucking hypocrites part.

I also do not understand why the "protection of the civilians" is not happening properly.

[al bupp]

5. Unfortunately, protecting the civilians of Misrata...

...is one of those things that's easier said than done.

[tabatha]

6. True.

But either NATO is concerned about cost, has run out of ammunition, is incompetent or has other plans - is not clear. But, there was a time when the tanks were not hidden, and should have been taken out.

[PurityOfEssence]

7. The civilians from the contested area should be evacuated

otherwise, they're human shields by definition. It is, in fact, happening right now, so it will be interesting to see what the outcome is.

One of the problems with Civil Wars is that, often at some point, one has to take a side. The truth of much of life is that many, many people do not have a side and don't want to be forced to take one. The statistics are often rather low for those who really care one way or the other, but when forced to take sides, they will.

[tabatha]

9. They are finding it difficult to evacuate the wounded

let alone the population. Some boats (MSF) had to wait outside Misrata for several days, before they could go in.

Or do you not know that?

[BOG PERSON]

2. it's funny how much of war revolves around

badmouthing the other side for not only having the advantage, but taking it, too.

[PurityOfEssence]

8. Both sides are using "human shields"

Both sides distort the truth. Both sides have killed prisoners.

It's much like the verbal escalation on this board or Obama's illegal attack: when one is "good" and "right", the pesky trivialities of law and manners are only applicable to the bad guys.

[tabatha]

10. Utter BS

The Rebels are NOT using human shields. Please provide a link to support your claim.
The Rebels are NOT distorting the truth. Please provide a link to support your claim.
The Rebels have NOT killed prisoners. Please provide a link to support your claim.

[Bosonic]

16. Really?

>>The Rebels have NOT killed prisoners. Please provide a link to support your claim.

Granted it doesn't sound like he was a prisoner very long, and I also may be accused of nit-picking, but:

In the midafternoon, as the rebels searched cars at the city’s northeastern checkpoint and the fighting continued, they dragged a man from a vehicle, rushed him to the far shoulder of the road and shot him.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x854733#857190

[tabatha]

21. I am aware of that story.

He was not a prisoner - he was free to go at any time, but he chose to stay with the rebels and give their position to the "enemy". I do not like what they did - but that was an isolated incident. I do not judge the whole by the actions of one or two until it becomes a pattern.

So, it is still BS.

Btw, I do not believe that Gaddafi has ever done the following:

"Since arriving on an aid ship from Malta, the father-of-six has found himself operating for up to 12 hours a day. He has saved not just rebel fighters, but also Col Gaddafi's teenage conscripts sent to subdue the city. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8455994/Misurata-doctor-counting-the-cost-of-Gaddafis-cluster-bombs.html

[Bosonic]

22. BS does seem to be an apropos summary of your spintastic reply.

[tabatha]

26. Lots of words little argument makes.

Facts, my dear, facts. Other than that incident, where are the reports?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bosonic]

38. Report as req.

Libyan rebels hanged at least two suspected pro-Gadhafi fighters in the chaotic early days of the uprising, witnesses say, revealing for the first time a bitter struggle within the rebellion about how to contain the anger unleashed after decades of oppression.

The full extent of revenge killings in eastern Libya is unknown. Near the coastal city of Darna, locals say they discovered a heap of bodies in the badlands south of town, where at least a dozen men appeared to have been executed with gunshots to the head. But the circumstances of those deaths remain unclear.


Doctors at four rebel-controlled medical facilities say they struggled – and failed on at least one occasion – to prevent mobs from killing patients accused of loyalty to Colonel Moammar Gadhafi.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/a-rebellion-divided-spectre-of-revenge-killings-hangs-over-eastern-libya/article1967949/page1/

[Bosonic]

39. And another...

I wonder if you will ever acknowledge these though.

Chad says citizens abused in rebel-held Libya

* Chad says citizens harassed, abused, executed

* Says dozens have known the "sad fate"

N'DJAMENA, April 3 (Reuters) - Chad on Sunday called on coalition forces to protect its citizens in rebel-held areas in Libya, saying dozens had been accused and executed for allegedly being mercenaries in the pay Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.

When protests against Gaddafi's government led to violence in February, rebels said Gaddafi had brought in African mercenaries from countries such as Chad and Zimbabwe to help in the crackdown after Libyan troops proved unreliable.

http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE7320JH20110403

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Wielding Truth]

3. Aren't cluster bombs dropped ? Isn't there a no fly zone?

[tabatha]

4. The tanks are ejecting them.

They can only send out a certain number, then they get very hot - and have to wait for a half an hour too cool down. So another tank takes over.

I heard one Libyan report that in Misrata, more tanks are being taken out by the rebels than by NATO.

[bluestate10]

13. Without the US at the lead, NATO is a bit incompetent.

Qaddafi is an inhuman monster and must be removed from leading Libya. NATO alone, without the US involved at the lead, will not get that done. France and Britain are relative paper tiger military forces compared to the US.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. Totally disagree NATO can do this mission just fine though the US is still involved

The real issue is the Rules of Engagement (ROE). We are well past a no fly zone and the mission is growing.

The Arab League at one point said they would lead it...where are they now?

[bluestate10]

32. "The Arab League at one point said they would lead it...where are they now?"

Where they fucking always are, selling oil to the West for top dollar. Qaddafi is a bloodthirsty tyrant that will kill as many of his people as necessary to hold power. Shame on the West if it lets him succeed. The US has little to gain from a war in Libya. The US should not be at the lead. Britain and France have much to gain from getting rid of Qaddafi, if ground troops are used, their troops must be the first in, because the Arab league is not going to do shit to stop Qaddafi's murderous assault on his people.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. Prior articles said 120mm mortar using Spanish made rounds with submunitions

I do not know of a tank round that uses sub munitions.

[The Wielding Truth]

35. Wow. Those poor Libyans. I hope Ghadafi and Co. leave soon.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Many way to disperse sub munitions. Air launched is only one

[The Wielding Truth]

34. Ok. The no fly zone is still being enforced. Thanks.

[Karmadillo]

11. Gaddafi should be forced to suffer the same punishment Israel underwent for using cluster bombs.

And even the same punishment the US underwent for using and selling cluster bombs.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-commander-we-fired-more-than-a-million-cluster-bombs-in-lebanon-1.197099

Published 00:00 12.09.06
Latest update 00:00 12.09.06
IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon
Phosphorous and cluster bombs heavily used; unexploded munitions litter wide area of Lebanon.
By Meron Rappaport

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.

The rocket unit commander stated that Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) platforms were heavily used in spite of the fact that they were known to be highly inaccurate.

more...

[EFerrari]

37. Or our ally Thailand who used them on Cambodia

UK Government condemns Thai use of cluster munitions
By Andrew Spooner Apr 13, 2011 6:28AM UTC

Last week the highly respected Cluster Munitions Collective announced that they now had sufficient evidence to prove that the Thai Army used cluster munitions against Cambodia during an exchange of fire in February 2011.

The CMC concluded that:

“This is the first use of cluster munitions anywhere in the world since the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions entered into force and became binding international law. Thailand has been a leader in the global ban on antipersonnel mines, and it is unconscionable that it used banned weapons that indiscriminately kill and injure civilians in a similar manner.”

http://asiancorrespondent.com/52311/breaking-uk-government-condemns-thai-use-of-cluster-munitions/

[G_j]

12. 2006: "UN denounces Israel cluster bombs"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5299938.stm

30 August 2006,


The UN's humanitarian chief has accused Israel of "completely immoral" use of cluster bombs in Lebanon.

UN clearance experts had so far found 100,000 unexploded cluster bomblets at 359 separate sites, Jan Egeland said.

Israel has repeated its previous insistence that munitions it uses in conflict comply with international law.

Earlier, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert rebuffed UN chief Kofi Annan's calls for a swift end to Israel's air and sea blockade of Lebanon.
After talks with Mr Annan, Mr Olmert said the siege would only be lifted once the ceasefire terms were fully implemented.
..more..

[dixiegrrrrl]

14. Which country sold Gaddafi the cluster bombs, I wonder?

Or which country made them, actually,

[tabatha]

15. Spain in 2007.

A year before they signed on to the cluster ban treaty.

[dixiegrrrrl]

18. Damn, you are GOOD!!!!!

:fistbump:

[tabatha]

20. Actually, I have since read an article that they were made in 2007 but sold in 2008.

I learn a lot from reading the Libyan threads.

The link below should be required reading for anyone who says even one word about Libya:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8455994/Misurata-doctor-counting-the-cost-of-Gaddafis-cluster-bombs.html

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. Spainish made 120mm Mortar rounds

He may have other sub munition weapons...Janes might have something on it.

[tabatha]

27. Here is a link from the Libyan thread.

http://cjchivers.com/post/4667042303/more-on-the-spanish-cluster-munitions-in-libya
The author of this report said more info may be forthcoming.

originally found at:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=906939&mesg_id=907469

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. There is nothing particularly remarkable about Libya possessing such weapons

Yes they are out there, yes they are being used, and no, NATO can do practically nothing to prevent their continued use. Useful questions would be how many and what else does he have. Weapons like that could make NATO troops on the ground pay dearly for being there.

IMO, Chivers is making much to big a deal about the EUC and such. Standard paperwork for national governments

[bluestate10]

33. If NATO put troops on the ground, weapons like attack helicopters, A-10s

and gunships will lead the assault on Qaddafi forces. Modern APCs will roll over cluster bombs like they don't exist, Qaddafi will need heavier explosives to slow them. The only people that will pay dearly will be troops loyal to Qaddafi. My view is those troops made a choice to fight for barbarianism several weeks ago when some among them chose to fight for freedom. If ground troops and their supports weapons are forced into Libya, my wish is that they force Qaddafi forces out into the open and slaughter them until those forces unconditionally surrender, only that end will equalize the evil that Qaddafi forces have brought onto too many innocent people.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. Mortars are hard to find in the midst of an assault which makes fire finder radar useless.

Cluster munitions are ideal for transport helos, Humvees, and other soft targets. Depending on the type of sub munition used even some APCs would be vulnerable.

I sympathize with your moral position, but it should not impact your tactical analysis.

[joshcryer]

28. More importantly, Spain's Repsol (oil company) has quite a few blocs of Libyan oil.

The whole arms deal was likely oil for arms.

[Baclava]

31. Call NATO - - we've washed our hands of this whole mess

...or so they say